New EV tax credit bill to be signed on Monday

[mentos]

Biden is expected to sign the IRA on Monday. Only EVs and PHEVs made in North America will qualify for the $7500 federal tax credit. Previous 2022 models that qualified under 200k limit will no longer qualify. If you already bought a EV6, ID4, Ioniq5, Rav4 Prime, or XC40 Recharge etc this year then you'll get the tax credit. But if you buy those after Monday, you don't.

If you want an EV, buy now – Rivian, Fisker and others rush to lock in EV tax credits before changes

Electric cars assembled outside of North America may lose access to EV tax credits within a week, and buyers need to act fast to save money.

electrek.co

I think this new bill is so stupid. Why exclude imports? Cars made overseas are superior than American made. Toyota, Honda, VW (2022), Porsche, Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, etc will no longer be eligible for the credit. This will just give Tesla and GM more money. And why mess with the 2022 eligibility? Leave 2022 alone and make it active in 2023.

Give everyone a check, or no one at all.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

So are you trying to say in a poorly constructed way that the US should forgive student loan debts of those that went to foreign colleges?

It feels like you are trying to make a point, but you are just bad at it.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

That said, I might have to grab me one of those Bolt EVs. They are under $30k as is. Just giving them away with the rebate.

 

[mentos]

So are you trying to say in a poorly constructed way that the US should forgive student loan debts of those that went to foreign colleges?

It feels like you are trying to make a point, but you are just bad at it.

No this thread is about the EVs. My buddy ordered a top trim Rivian over a year ago, and now it won't qualify either.

I think they should stick to the 200k limit. Why abolish it in the middle of the year? There are people who ordered their EV in 2021 who are still waiting for their order, and now they won't get the tax credit. I bet there will be many 2022 ID4s sitting on lots when their orders get canceled for 2023 models (they will be made in Tennessee) that will qualify for the credit.

This photo shows current models that will qualify.

 

[mentos]

Isn’t there an income limit?

Yes 150k single/300k married. Most pharmacists don't have to worry about it.

 

[owlegrad]

Why exclude imports?

Is that a real question? I think it’s pretty obvious why.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Biden is expected to sign the IRA on Monday. Only EVs and PHEVs made in North America will qualify for the $7500 federal tax credit. Previous 2022 models that qualified under 200k limit will no longer qualify. If you already bought a EV6, ID4, Ioniq5, Rav4 Prime, or XC40 Recharge etc this year then you'll get the tax credit. But if you buy those after Monday, you don't.

If you want an EV, buy now – Rivian, Fisker and others rush to lock in EV tax credits before changes

Electric cars assembled outside of North America may lose access to EV tax credits within a week, and buyers need to act fast to save money.

electrek.co

I think this new bill is so stupid. Why exclude imports? Cars made overseas are superior than American made. Toyota, Honda, VW (2022), Porsche, Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, etc will no longer be eligible for the credit. This will just give Tesla and GM more money. And why mess with the 2022 eligibility? Leave 2022 alone and make it active in 2023.

Give everyone a check, or no one at all.

You do realize that lots of foreign car manufacturers make their cars in this country right?

I live about 15 miled away from an enormous BMW factory.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Biden is expected to sign the IRA on Monday. Only EVs and PHEVs made in North America will qualify for the $7500 federal tax credit. Previous 2022 models that qualified under 200k limit will no longer qualify. If you already bought a EV6, ID4, Ioniq5, Rav4 Prime, or XC40 Recharge etc this year then you'll get the tax credit. But if you buy those after Monday, you don't.

If you want an EV, buy now – Rivian, Fisker and others rush to lock in EV tax credits before changes

Electric cars assembled outside of North America may lose access to EV tax credits within a week, and buyers need to act fast to save money.

electrek.co

I think this new bill is so stupid. Why exclude imports? Cars made overseas are superior than American made. Toyota, Honda, VW (2022), Porsche, Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Volvo, etc will no longer be eligible for the credit. This will just give Tesla and GM more money. And why mess with the 2022 eligibility? Leave 2022 alone and make it active in 2023.

Give everyone a check, or no one at all.

Republicans be like: Electric cars are just trading our dependence on foreign oil for our dependence on foreign batteries.

Republicans be like: I don't like this inflation reduction act because there aren't enough domestic batteries, so this tax credit makes no sense.

 

[mentos]

You do realize that lots of foreign car manufacturers make their cars in this country right?

I live about 15 miled away from an enormous BMW factory.

🤦 You do realize this bill is for BEVs and PHEVs right?

Which BEV does BMW produce in America? Exactly.

If you ordered a 2022 BMW i4 eDrive40 Gran Coupe and took delivery yesterday, you would get the $7500 tax credit. If it arrives on Tuesday after the new bill is signed, then you get nothing. How dumb is that?

It takes years for foreign car manufacturers to start producing EVs in America. Hyundai plans to make the Ioniq5 in Georgia, but they won't be ready until 2025 or later.

 

[mentos]

Republicans be like: Electric cars are just trading our dependence on foreign oil for our dependence on foreign batteries.

Republicans be like: I don't like this inflation reduction act because there aren't enough domestic batteries, so this tax credit makes no sense.

I don't know much about politics so I don't know what this means. I'm pro EV but think this bill is stupid, all EVs should get the tax credit (the previous 200k limit was fine) or none. So I don't know if that makes me a Republic or Democrat but I don't really care about that.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

I don't know much about politics so I don't know what this means. I'm pro EV but think this bill is stupid, all EVs should get the tax credit (the previous 200k limit was fine) or none. So I don't know if that makes me a Republic or Democrat but I don't really care about that.

Do you believe there's no value in encouraging domestic production of automobiles and automobile parts? Is your only concern that you'll get $7500 off an Audi? What's your opinion on the CHIPS act? CHIPS Act Passes: House Approves $280 Billion Bill To Boost Microchip Production And Counter China

 

[mentos]

Do you believe there's no value in encouraging domestic production of automobiles and automobile parts? Is your only concern that you'll get $7500 off an Audi? What's your opinion on the CHIPS act? CHIPS Act Passes: House Approves $280 Billion Bill To Boost Microchip Production And Counter China

No I don't. The big 3 American car makers needed to be bailed out in 2008. Now they are getting bailed out again. American cars are no good. If encouraging domestic production is so important then why did they wait 10 years for this? Why not give tax credits for ICE cars made in America then?

Tesla does not need anymore government subsidies, they're doing just fine.

Ford just increased the price of F-150 Lightning by 6-8.5k right after this bill was announced.

Ford Raises Prices of F-150 Lightning Electric Truck, Citing Rising Material Costs (Published 2022)

Demand for electric vehicles has been far stronger than the supply of battery materials like lithium, nickel and cobalt.

www.nytimes.com

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

🤦 You do realize this bill is for BEVs and PHEVs right?

Which BEV does BMW produce in America? Exactly.

If you ordered a 2022 BMW i4 eDrive40 Gran Coupe and took delivery yesterday, you would get the $7500 tax credit. If it arrives on Tuesday after the new bill is signed, then you get nothing. How dumb is that?

It takes years for foreign car manufacturers to start producing EVs in America. Hyundai plans to make the Ioniq5 in Georgia, but they won't be ready until 2025 or later.

The BMW X5 PHEV is made in Greer SC

 

[owlegrad]

🤦 You do realize this bill is for BEVs and PHEVs right?

Which BEV does BMW produce in America? Exactly.

If you ordered a 2022 BMW i4 eDrive40 Gran Coupe and took delivery yesterday, you would get the $7500 tax credit. If it arrives on Tuesday after the new bill is signed, then you get nothing. How dumb is that?

It takes years for foreign car manufacturers to start producing EVs in America. Hyundai plans to make the Ioniq5 in Georgia, but they won't be ready until 2025 or later.

That’s not a very strong argument. How dumb is it that the 200k limit means that the 200,001 car doesn’t qualify? (Well, that’s actually not how the phase out worked but the larger point is the same)

Basically it’s not dumb at all. Everything that has a cutoff or a start date will have this effect.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Your mind has been poisoned by politics

Why you say that?

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Here are the cars that will qualify for the new credit (probably).

New Clean Vehicle Tax Credit Plan Means Most EVs No Longer Qualify

• Chevrolet Bolt EV
• Chevrolet Bolt EUV
• Chevrolet Blazer EV
• Chevrolet Silverado EV
• Cadillac Lyriq (if classed as an SUV)
• Ford F-150 Lightning
• Ford Mustang Mach-E
• Nissan Leaf
• Tesla Model 3 (base trim only)
• Tesla Model Y (depending on options)
• Volkswagen ID.4 (but only models made in Tennessee)

Nobody is stopping other manufacturers from sourcing and building their cars here.

 

[mentos]

That’s not a very strong argument. How dumb is it that the 200k limit means that the 200,001 car doesn’t qualify? (Well, that’s actually not how the phase out worked but the larger point is the same)

Basically it’s not dumb at all. Everything that has a cutoff or a start date will have this effect.

The cutoff was 200k for the longest time until they decided to change it midyear. Toyota, Hyundai, Kia etc are not even close to that limit. Why change it in August instead of 2023? The whole point of the tax credit was to encourage people to "go green" by switching to EV. Now they made it political by encouraging "buy American".

 

[owlegrad]

The cutoff was 200k for the longest time until they decided to change it midyear. Why change it in August instead of 2023? The whole point of the tax credit was to encourage people to "go green" by switching to EV. Now they made it political by encouraging "buy American".

“Why august instead of 2023”? If I were cynical I would say it is so that any positive affects it may have on our economy will be seen in time for the next election. Just spitballing here. I could flip the question on it’s head and ask “why wait”. Any start date is going to be essentially arbitrary and someone somewhere will get the short end of the stick.

It was always political. Making the choice to prefer EVs to ICE is political. Choosing to prefer American-made to imports is also political but it didn’t “make it political”.

 

[owlegrad]

Also maybe I should add that I don’t agree with limiting it to “American made” but mostly because it doesn’t really mean very much. Most of the inputs will still be imported and besides that the ship has sailed on globalization.

 

[mentos]

Here are the cars that will qualify for the new credit (probably).

New Clean Vehicle Tax Credit Plan Means Most EVs No Longer Qualify

• Chevrolet Bolt EV
• Chevrolet Bolt EUV
• Chevrolet Blazer EV
• Chevrolet Silverado EV
• Cadillac Lyriq (if classed as an SUV)
• Ford F-150 Lightning
• Ford Mustang Mach-E
• Nissan Leaf
• Tesla Model 3 (base trim only)
• Tesla Model Y (depending on options)
• Volkswagen ID.4 (but only models made in Tennessee)

Nobody is stopping other manufacturers from sourcing and building their cars here.

Already posted this list, you forgot Cadillac Lyriq and Rivian trucks.

That's why there will be a ton of 2022 ID4 cancellations. People will wait for the 2023 instead. But it was a years long process for them to build them in Tennessee.

 

[mentos]

Also maybe I should add that I don’t agree with limiting it to “American made” but mostly because it doesn’t really mean very much. Most of the inputs will still be imported and besides that the ship has sailed on globalization.

The batteries have to be sourced from North America. Sounds like this is geared towards restricting China/Russia.

"But, most important, the bill also restricts the full tax credit on new EVs to vehicles with battery minerals sourced from countries that the U.S. has a free trade agreement with or recycled in North America, and with battery components sourced from North America.

If any minerals or components are sourced from “foreign entities of concern,” including China or Russia, the vehicle will not qualify for any tax credit. A 2022 analysis of the EV supply chain from the International Energy Agency shows that the vast majority of minerals, components, and battery cells are currently sourced from China. This restriction doesn’t apply to used vehicles."

Electric Cars and Plug-In Hybrids That Qualify for Federal Tax Credits - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports details the list of 2023 and 2024 model-year electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids that qualify for federal tax credits of up to $7,500 under the Inflation Reduction Act.

www.consumerreports.org

 

[mentos]

“Why august instead of 2023”? If I were cynical I would say it is so that any positive affects it may have on our economy will be seen in time for the next election. Just spitballing here. I could flip the question on it’s head and ask “why wait”. Any start date is going to be essentially arbitrary and someone somewhere will get the short end of the stick.

It was always political. Making the choice to prefer EVs to ICE is political. Choosing to prefer American-made to imports is also political but it didn’t “make it political”.

That sounds right. This will look like a victory for Biden along with the student loan stuff.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Already posted this list, you forgot Cadillac Lyriq and Rivian trucks.

That's why there will be a ton of 2022 ID4 cancellations. People will wait for the 2023 instead. But it was a years long process for them to build them in Tennessee.

I don't believe Rivian qualifies. But that doesn't matter as they won't ever get made anyway. Building an electric vehicle is apparently pretty difficult.

 

[confettiflyer]

Conundrum

I have a Tesla M3 (standard range) reservation that will deliver in the next 3 months. Price is $44,990, before they increased to $46,990, and I still qualify for the $2500 CA BEV rebate.

I kind of want a 2023 ID4, and I will likely qualify for the federal $7500 rebate for tax year 2022, but not after (and I can’t double dip because I no longer qualify for the CA rebate).

What should I do?

EDIT: If I can push the Tesla to January 2023, I technically would qualify for $10k in rebates ($7500 federal, $2500 state) based on original order date, and I will go that route, not counting on it, though.

 

[mentos]

Conundrum

I have a Tesla M3 (standard range) reservation that will deliver in the next 3 months. Price is $44,990, before they increased to $46,990, and I still qualify for the $2500 CA BEV rebate.

I kind of want a 2023 ID4, and I will likely qualify for the federal $7500 rebate for tax year 2022, but not after (and I can’t double dip because I no longer qualify for the CA rebate).

What should I do?

EDIT: If I can push the Tesla to January 2023, I technically would qualify for $10k in rebates ($7500 federal, $2500 state) based on original order date, and I will go that route, not counting on it, though.

The wait-list for a 23 ID4 is at least 9 months. It won't come until 2023.

 

[mentos]

I don't believe Rivian qualifies. But that doesn't matter as they won't ever get made anyway. Building an electric vehicle is apparently pretty difficult.

The base models will. I don't see why it wouldn't come out, there's already a bunch of EVs.

 

[Sparda29]

Son of a bitch, my Tesla Model 3 isn't going to qualify. There shouldn't be a price limit. People who buy the Long Range and Performance version of the Model 3, and those who buy the Model S and X shouldn't get ****ed out of this tax credit.

 

[confettiflyer]

The wait-list for a 23 ID4 is at least 9 months. It won't come until 2023.

That actually works out, sorry I meant tax year 2022 to qualify for the $7500, so that means I have until October 2023 when I usually file taxes if they require proof of AGI at the point of sale.

Sucks there seem to be a bunch of 2022 ID4’s in stock around me, and still eligible for $7500 under old rules. Is 2023’s spec bump (faster charging, range bump) worth it?

 

[confettiflyer]

Son of a bitch, my Tesla Model 3 isn't going to qualify. There shouldn't be a price limit. People who buy the Long Range and Performance version of the Model 3, and those who buy the Model S and X shouldn't get ****ed out of this tax credit.

I thought they did this in Canada, where you buy a M3 LR that has the “LR” locked at $54k (under the cap) and you buy a software unlock for the remaining range that happens to bring the total cost of car to MSRP?

 

[mentos]

Son of a bitch, my Tesla Model 3 isn't going to qualify. There shouldn't be a price limit. People who buy the Long Range and Performance version of the Model 3, and those who buy the Model S and X shouldn't get ****ed out of this tax credit.

Didn't you already buy it? It wouldn't have qualified anyway until the bill was signed.

 

[mentos]

That actually works out, sorry I meant tax year 2022 to qualify for the $7500, so that means I have until October 2023 when I usually file taxes if they require proof of AGI at the point of sale.

Sucks there seem to be a bunch of 2022 ID4’s in stock around me, and still eligible for $7500 under old rules. Is 2023’s spec bump (faster charging, range bump) worth it?

I think the 23 will have better software and a nicer dashboard user interface. It's like a 1% price increase, I'd say it's worth it.

But if you can get a 22 at MSRP right now and still qualify for 7500, I'd buy that instead of waiting.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

The base models will. I don't see why it wouldn't come out, there's already a bunch of EVs.

I see them on the list you posted; others show their batteries do not meet requirements (40% of ingredients from north american sources). I'm sure that can be rectified in response to the bill...as was the point of the bill. There are plenty of EVs out there, but the only one from a "start up" you can actually buy is from Tesla. The road is littered with failed attempts.

My neighbor is an early Rivian reservation holder and now thinks he's been bumped back to 2024. He's also down 6 or 7 thousand on the can't miss direct IPO they let him purchase...

 

[mentos]

Biden’s Inflation Bill Made $7,500 Electric Vehicle Tax Credits. Ford And GM Just Raised Their Prices By The Same Amount. | The Daily Wire

www.dailywire.com

GM raised their prices in response to the bill too.

 

[mentos]

I see them on the list you posted; others show their batteries do not meet requirements (40% of ingredients from north american sources). I'm sure that can be rectified in response to the bill...as was the point of the bill. There are plenty of EVs out there, but the only one from a "start up" you can actually buy is from Tesla. The road is littered with failed attempts.

My neighbor is an early Rivian reservation holder and now thinks he's been bumped back to 2024. He's also down 6 or 7 thousand on the can't miss direct IPO they let him purchase...

Not surprised at RIVN stock price dumping. It was valued at over 100bil at IPO, ridiculous.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Not surprised at RIVN stock price dumping. It was valued at over 100bil at IPO, ridiculous.

He was all smiley the week of the IPO. Talking about how he was going to sell it and pay for the truck when it arrived. I was hoping to upgrade to an ID Buzz if they ever build them for the US, but I want one for like $45k and not $75k.

 

[RxPreceptor]

At mentos for any financial advice/career pathway coaching regarding auto mechanics old and new?

We’re like all dying to hear

 

[mentos]

At mentos for any financial advice/career pathway coaching regarding auto mechanics old and new?

We’re like all dying to hear

Huh?

 

[mentos]

He was all smiley the week of the IPO. Talking about how he was going to sell it and pay for the truck when it arrived. I was hoping to upgrade to an ID Buzz if they ever build them for the US, but I want one for like $45k and not $75k.

I'm interested too. How do you know it's 75k? I'd pay up to 50k if it qualifies for tax credit.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

I'm interested too. How do you know it's 75k? I'd pay up to 50k if it qualifies for tax credit.

Well you can order one in the UK right now...even with the strong US dollar, it comes out to over $69,000. I suppose you can take VAT off that, so reduce it down to $55k US. But that's for a 5 seater, and with the smallest battery that will be offered in the US. The US version is also going to be longer and have a third row of seats. Maybe they won't charge extra for that, but I'm doubtful. And then there's no point in buying a VW bus if you're not getting the camper version (California Edition, price unknown, I'd expect a $10,000 premium). Volkswagen for some reason has thought they were BMWs for years and has always tried to price accordingly. I suspect they'll be able to do that, at least until production numbers are up with the ID BUZZ. So maybe you can get a stripped, small battery (260 mile range), with nowhere to sleep van for under $60k. They're talking about building in the US, so perhaps there will be a rebate...

 

[Dred Pirate]

Is that a real question? I think it’s pretty obvious why.

waiting for the MAGA/put america first crowd to argue against this simply because it was signed by biden

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

waiting for the MAGA/put america first crowd to argue against this simply because it was signed by biden

I'll start: The internal combustion engine is the most efficient invention of all time. Any attempt to improve on it just moves the pollution. Where do you think you get the electricity to power your electric car? Burning coal.

And: Mining for lithium is even worse than fracking. Have you seen what a lithium mine looks like when all the lithium is gone? And there's no way to recycle it. Your car is the world's heaviest paper weight when the battery wears out.

And something about reliance on foreign minerals, strengthening China, etc.

 

[mentos]

I'll start: The internal combustion engine is the most efficient invention of all time. Any attempt to improve on it just moves the pollution. Where do you think you get the electricity to power your electric car? Burning coal.

And: Mining for lithium is even worse than fracking. Have you seen what a lithium mine looks like when all the lithium is gone? And there's no way to recycle it. Your car is the world's heaviest paper weight when the battery wears out.

And something about reliance on foreign minerals, strengthening China, etc.

"I don't have time to wait around to charge when I can fill up in 5 min."

"The electric grid already has rolling blackouts. What will happen when everyone is charging their car?"

"I need 600 miles of range on one charge even though my gas tank only provides half of that".

 

[Dred Pirate]

I'll start: The internal combustion engine is the most efficient invention of all time. Any attempt to improve on it just moves the pollution. Where do you think you get the electricity to power your electric car? Burning coal.

And: Mining for lithium is even worse than fracking. Have you seen what a lithium mine looks like when all the lithium is gone? And there's no way to recycle it. Your car is the world's heaviest paper weight when the battery wears out.

And something about reliance on foreign minerals, strengthening China, etc.

I meant that only American companies get the rebate. But you do you.

 

[mentos]

Might have to buy a new car soon but don’t qualify for the tax deduction due to income restriction. Think this bill will cause the price of Model S to go down since they don’t qualify?

No. I don't follow Model S prices but the 3 used to be 39k with tax credit, now it's 47k without tax credit. The Y used to be 43k, now it's 67k and no one cares. People keep buying them and the wait lists keep getting longer.

 

[mentos]

Damn, 110 k for model S. Needs to wait 2-4 months for delivery. Where is all of this money coming from?

2-4 months isn't long at all. Most EVs have a year+ wait-list.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

The base models will. I don't see why it wouldn't come out, there's already a bunch of EVs.

Rivian eliminates less-expensive version of its electric pickup

So the base models that don't exist and now won't ever exist qualify...

I stand by my original statement.

 

[mentos]

Rivian eliminates less-expensive version of its electric pickup

So the base models that don't exist and now won't ever exist qualify...

I stand by my original statement.

It'll still qualify since it's under $80k.

 

[mentos]

Damn, 110 k for model S. Needs to wait 2-4 months for delivery. Where is all of this money coming from?

I'd take Mercedes EQS over anything else in that price range.

 

[mentos]

Rivian eliminates less-expensive version of its electric pickup

So the base models that don't exist and now won't ever exist qualify...

I stand by my original statement.

I saw a Rivian on the highway today, they exist.

They sold 4,467 in the first two quarters this year.

Rivian Noticeably Increased Production And Sales In Q2 2022

Rivian has just announced its electric vehicle production and sales results for the second quarter of 2022.

insideevs.com

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

It'll still qualify since it's under $80k.

Mark my words. Nobody reserving a Rivian today is getting a federal tax rebate.

I saw a Rivian on the highway today, they exist.

They sold 4,467 in the first two quarters this year.

Rivian Noticeably Increased Production And Sales In Q2 2022

Rivian has just announced its electric vehicle production and sales results for the second quarter of 2022.

insideevs.com

I saw a Rivian on the highway today, they exist.

They sold 4,467 in the first two quarters this year.

Rivian Noticeably Increased Production And Sales In Q2 2022

Rivian has just announced its electric vehicle production and sales results for the second quarter of 2022.

insideevs.com

They were supposed to produce 50,000 this year, they cut that number to 25,000 I see some estimates that they’re really expecting 12-14,000. They won’t even hit the lower end of the forecast. Anyone can make one electric car. It’s very difficult to make enough to be anywhere close to profitable.

Rivian knows without a doubt their cars won’t qualify for a rebate. That’s why they were trying to get people to sign a contract before the new rules went into effect. I’ll be surprised if someone signing up today is able to get a sub $100,000 SUV or a sub $90,000 truck.

Rivian (RIVN) is not happy to be left out of new EV tax credit

Rivian (RIVN) commented on the new EV federal tax that is expected to be adopted, and the American automaker said...

electrek.co