New York Times article on Caribbean medical schools

[DarknightX]

Yeesh I just can't believe people who are so dead set on Carribean. I have family members who did it. It was easier back then and they still had problems. Now they are fine but still. Terrible idea.

The carribean medical students anthem:

Most of the people I know who went to the Caribbean didn't want to put in the work or time to get in to a US school.

I applied to medical school twice myself, and took a few years off in order to improve my application. I wasn't in love with the idea of sitting out a few years while my buddies moved on with their lives, but I looked at the statistics and knew there was no way I could go to the Caribbean.

Two of my friends during undergrad also didn't get into medical school in the US. They both got crappy MCAT scores and didn't feel like putting in the work to raise them up. One of them never finished medical school, the other got a 240 on Step 1, failed to match. He had to sit out 2 years, do a research fellowship that was unpaid for the third year, matched into a surgical prelim spot, then did an internal medicine prelim spot, and finally was able to get an internal medicine residency at a small program in an very undesirable location. 5 years wasted when he could have put in the work before medical school and saved himself quite a bit of time. He got lucky that he even found a spot, as there are many Caribbean students who end up with nothing at all.

I ended up going to medical school in my home state (CA), and ended up matching in surgery there as well. Not only did I save a ton of money, but I also would not have ended up at the program I'm at with the speciality I'm in if I had gone the carribean route.

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[DoctorSynthesis]

Most of the people I know who went to the Caribbean didn't want to put in the work or time to get in to a US school.

I applied to medical school twice myself, and took a few years off in order to improve my application. I wasn't in love with the idea of sitting out a few years while my buddies moved on with their lives, but I looked at the statistics and knew there was no way I could go to the Caribbean.

Two of my friends during undergrad also didn't get into medical school in the US. They both got crappy MCAT scores and didn't feel like putting in the work to raise them up. One of them never finished medical school, the other got a 240 on Step 1, failed to match. He had to sit out 2 years, do a research fellowship that was unpaid for the third year, matched into a surgical prelim spot, then did an internal medicine prelim spot, and finally was able to get an internal medicine residency at a small program in an very undesirable location. 5 years wasted when he could have put in the work before medical school and saved himself quite a bit of time. He got lucky that he even found a spot, as there are many Caribbean students who end up with nothing at all.

I ended up going to medical school in my home state (CA), and ended up matching in surgery there as well. Not only did I save a ton of money, but I also would not have ended up at the program I'm at with the speciality I'm in if I had gone the carribean route.

My family member who went carribean even a long time ago had trouble also. And that was when it was better.

 

[DarknightX]

Some of you premeds, especially this catman21 guy, live in a fantasy world.

"Like, I scored a 23 on the MCAT and my GPA is 2.7, but I'm still gonna be a great doctor!!! Like, I deserve to go medical school!!!!"

"It doesn't matter that I suck at standardized test and I have bad study habits; I just know that once I get into medical school everything will work itself out and I'll get a great score on Step 1!!!

"WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Some of you premeds, especially this catman21 guy, live in a fantasy world.

"Like, I scored a 23 on the MCAT and my GPA is 2.7, but I'm still gonna be a great doctor!!! Like, I deserve to go medical school!!!!"

"It doesn't matter that I suck at standardized test and I have bad study habits; I just know that once I get into medical school everything will work itself out and I'll get a great score on Step 1!!!

"WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Its easier to say that then to just admit you aren't cut out for something. I don't believe MCAT or GPA means good doctor but I do think there is a baseline that is necessary.

 

[Greasy Pete]

Fun in the sun.

 

[radkat101]

Some of you premeds, especially this catman21 guy, live in a fantasy world.

"Like, I scored a 23 on the MCAT and my GPA is 2.7, but I'm still gonna be a great doctor!!! Like, I deserve to go medical school!!!!"

"It doesn't matter that I suck at standardized test and I have bad study habits; I just know that once I get into medical school everything will work itself out and I'll get a great score on Step 1!!!

"WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

I agree, and this is where a lot of DO applicants get into trouble when they go in with these stats and expect to match competitively. From what I've gotten out of school (DO) up to this point, MCAT and GPA combined are pretty good indicators of how you will perform here, which should also translate to the boards. I can understand how mcat may not be that meaningful by itself, because some people slack off and still manage to get a 30 while others study for months for the same score. In med school though, you have limited time to study TONS of material and if you were one of those people that needed lots of time to understand things and perform well in undergrad, it doesn't matter how good of a doctor you think you might be, because you won't be able to get over the shock of studying hours and hours everyday only to find yourself getting trampled by the competition coming from your own school, as well as the MD schools. I think this is the primary reason DO schools have worse match lists. It's not even DO bias that's really their problem. They are getting ahead of themselves by not understanding that THEY are the problem. If they can manage to be near the top of the class and kill the boards they probably WILL be able to match something that makes them happy. This is way easier said than done as a pre-med. Especially one who had trouble getting into med school in the first place.

 

[Dral]

My friends got into multiple bs/MD programs and went to my bs/do program. Some are going DO now and some are going MD.

I applied to one BS/MD program. I got the interview and they said no because I wasn't local to the area and only took 4 local students. Whatever. If I really wanted MD I would have went the traditional route. I chose the DO program because I wanted to be a DO. (Free undergrad was a plus). Only reason I applied to that MD program was because I was just applying to that school regularly and they sent me an email to apply and I said why not.

But yes keep bashing DOs. I have no reason to lie I have nothing to hide.



I'm sorry bro but you said people chose do and primary when they get there 3.3s and 27. (Touro's MCAT average is >30)

And to be honest I don't have a complex. I respect MDs. I don't believe DOs are better I believe they are equal. I will fight the notion that MDs are superior like type 12 said. No DO would say they are no where close.

My friends got into multiple bs/MD programs and went to my bs/do program. Some are going DO now and some are going MD.

I applied to one BS/MD program. I got the interview and they said no because I wasn't local to the area and only took 4 local students. Whatever. If I really wanted MD I would have went the traditional route. I chose the DO program because I wanted to be a DO. (Free undergrad was a plus). Only reason I applied to that MD program was because I was just applying to that school regularly and they sent me an email to apply and I said why not.

But yes keep bashing DOs. I have no reason to lie I have nothing to hide.



I'm sorry bro but you said people chose do and primary when they get there 3.3s and 27. (Touro's MCAT average is >30)

And to be honest I don't have a complex. I respect MDs. I don't believe DOs are better I believe they are equal. I will fight the notion that MDs are superior like type 12 said. No DO would say they are no where close.

So the matter at hand is this: You said the majority of DOs go into primary care. Why is that? I'm assuming you believe people decide that they want to go into primary care and then go DO. That's probably true for some. Again, means don't lie, DO's have lower objective stats than MDs (objective numbers, this says nothing about quality of doctor per se, so don't go putting words in my mouth like you have prior). I believe the majority go into primary care because it is easier to match into...especially DOs who match ACGME positions.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the match. If you're premed, I can't quite totally buy any argument you have on this specific matter of lower stats going for the primary care match positions. Don't take it personally...you just can't talk about it the same way until you've experienced it. Trust me, I look back at my premed self and am amazed at how uninformed I was (despite the fact that I thought I was totally informed). Again, nothing personally. We get wiser as we age.

You'll never convince me that in the current state of medical education, OVERALL DOs are of the same caliber of MDs. MDs have better stats. With that many people, the average caliber of MDs is higher...it's just cold hard numbers. I mean, it's just that. You can't argue numbers. Maybe you believe OMM or something about DO education makes up for that. I dunno.

What we can agree on is that a DO has the potential to be as good a doctor as an MD.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So the matter at hand is this: You said the majority of DOs go into primary care. Why is that? I'm assuming you believe people decide that they want to go into primary care and then go DO. That's probably true for some. Again, means don't lie, DO's have lower objective stats than MDs (objective numbers, this says nothing about quality of doctor per se, so don't go putting words in my mouth like you have prior). I believe the majority go into primary care because it is easier to match into...especially DOs who match ACGME positions.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the match. If you're premed, I can't quite totally buy any argument you have on this specific matter of lower stats going for the primary care match positions. Don't take it personally...you just can't talk about it the same way until you've experienced it. Trust me, I look back at my premed self and am amazed at how uninformed I was (despite the fact that I thought I was totally informed). Again, nothing personally. We get wiser as we age.

You'll never convince me that in the current state of medical education, OVERALL DOs are of the same caliber of MDs. MDs have better stats. With that many people, the average caliber of MDs is higher...it's just cold hard numbers. I mean, it's just that. You can't argue numbers. Maybe you believe OMM or something about DO education makes up for that. I dunno.

What we can agree on is that a DO has the potential to be as good a doctor as an MD.

Ok well I'm pre med and want to go into DO to become a primary care physician. I have a father who is a plastic surgeon and I hate that specialty. I know I don't want to do any specialty with surgery. So I'm thinking that a bunch of people who are going DO with me are in the same boat since thats the mission of DO schools. Its something DO's are very proud about.

As far as my knowledge of the match goes pretty much my whole family is in the medical profession and have seen a bunch of relatives go through it (none DO to be fair. I will be the first . I feel like I have some experience with it. Also I posted numbers and encourage people to look at match lists. That can't be debated.

And this part is what ticks me off. You think just because on average MDs have better stats they are better doctors? Are people who go to harvard better doctors then people who go to FIU or PONCE? Are you really going to make an argument that undergraduate performance is the key deciding factor to the quality of doctor you are? Have you ever worked with a DO? They go through the same training (plus OMM) and are actually very good doctors and are on par with their allopathic peers.

I understand you may think you are better then me or DO's but your wrong. That attitude is beyond annoying. You sound like a word I can't say on here.

 

[DarknightX]

Ok well I'm pre med and want to go into DO to become a primary care physician. I have a father who is a plastic surgeon and I hate that specialty. I know I don't want to do any specialty with surgery. So I'm thinking that a bunch of people who are going DO with me are in the same boat since thats the mission of DO schools. Its something DO's are very proud about.

As far as my knowledge of the match goes pretty much my whole family is in the medical profession and have seen a bunch of relatives go through it (none DO to be fair. I will be the first . I feel like I have some experience with it. Also I posted numbers and encourage people to look at match lists. That can't be debated.

And this part is what ticks me off. You think just because on average MDs have better stats they are better doctors? Are people who go to harvard better doctors then people who go to FIU or PONCE? Are you really going to make an argument that undergraduate performance is the key deciding factor to the quality of doctor you are? Have you ever worked with a DO? They go through the same training (plus OMM) and are actually very good doctors and are on par with their allopathic peers.

I understand you may think you are better then me or DO's but your wrong. That attitude is beyond annoying. You sound like a word I can't say on here.

I will say this, once you start residency, nobody gives a crap where you went to med school or what letters are behind your name.

Once you get out in practice, people will only care where you did your residency/fellowship and if you're board certified. The only people who care about MD or DO are premeds and med students.

I have both attendings and co-residents who are DO trained and it never crosses my mind.

The point of this thread was to point out that making it out to practice to become board certified is MUCH more difficult from a Caribbean school.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I will say this, once you start residency, nobody gives a crap where you went to med school or what letters are behind your name.

Once you get out in practice, people will only care where you did your residency/fellowship and if you're board certified. The only people who care about MD or DO are premeds and med students.

I have both attendings and co-residents who are DO trained and it never crosses my mind.

The point of this thread was to point out that making it out to practice to become board certified is MUCH more difficult from a Caribbean school.

Spot on post. Agree times a million.

 

[Dral]

You unfortunately continue to misinterpret what I say. I have been totally clear in saying that in general, MDs have better average stats. You cannot deny that.

MDs are higher caliber (coming out of undergrad). Does that translate into better doctor? I don't know. Does that higher caliber translate into med school? Probably. One thing I've never seen is a step I average score of MD vs DO.

Edit: Found info for med peds: Step I avg a good amount higher for Allos. (230 for allo, 211 for osteo)

However, again, you have put words in my mouth by making a jump from higher caliber to mean better physician. I did not say MDs are better physicians. You assumed that.

I NEVER said that I personally think I'm better than a DO and I'm quite offended you insinuate that. THAT is beyond annoying and I might also use some words to describe you for that.

I do happen to work directly with DO derms in an AOA program. They seem quite intelligent to me.

I believe you've successfully misconstrued something I've stated in every single post of mine in this thread. Thus, it is time for me to exit.

Edit: Thank you for at least being relatively civil throughout this thread. Good day.

 

[Ismet]

This is a general reminder to keep your posts courteous and professional and to refrain from personal attacks.

Also, please stay on topic.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You unfortunately continue to misinterpret what I say. I have been totally clear in saying that in general, MDs have better average stats. You cannot deny that.

MDs are higher caliber (coming out of undergrad). Does that translate into better doctor? I don't know. Does that higher caliber translate into med school? Probably. One thing I've never seen is a step I average score of MD vs DO.

However, again, you have put words in my mouth by making a jump from higher caliber to mean better physician. I did not say MDs are better physicians. You assumed that.

I NEVER said that I personally think I'm better than a DO and I'm quite offended you insinuate that. THAT is beyond annoying and I might also use some words to describe you for that.

I do happen to work directly with DO derms in an AOA program. They seem quite intelligent to me.

I believe you've successfully misconstrued something I've stated in every single post of mine in this thread. Thus, it is time for me to exit.

Edit: Thank you for at least being relatively civil throughout this thread. Good day.

If you truly meant MDs are higher caliber in undergrad (whatever that means) then i'm sorry. However, comparing the relative caliber of these students is inflammatory and if you mention it you are going to get an earful from me.


To be clear the reason I assumed you were talking about physicians is that you said DO and MD. You didn't say DO student versus MD student. If you say Mds are higher caliber then DO I assume you mean doctors. Med students aren't MDs or DOs. Those are the graduates of medical schools. When you mention DO or MD you are talking about a physician. Not a student. You should have worded it better.

 

[Dral]

Yes I guess I could have.

 

[Greenberg702]

Ok well I'm pre med and want to go into DO to become a primary care physician. I have a father who is a plastic surgeon and I hate that specialty. I know I don't want to do any specialty with surgery. So I'm thinking that a bunch of people who are going DO with me are in the same boat since thats the mission of DO schools. Its something DO's are very proud about.

As far as my knowledge of the match goes pretty much my whole family is in the medical profession and have seen a bunch of relatives go through it (none DO to be fair. I will be the first . I feel like I have some experience with it. Also I posted numbers and encourage people to look at match lists. That can't be debated.

And this part is what ticks me off. You think just because on average MDs have better stats they are better doctors? Are people who go to harvard better doctors then people who go to FIU or PONCE? Are you really going to make an argument that undergraduate performance is the key deciding factor to the quality of doctor you are? Have you ever worked with a DO? They go through the same training (plus OMM) and are actually very good doctors and are on par with their allopathic peers.

I understand you may think you are better then me or DO's but your wrong. That attitude is beyond annoying. You sound like a word I can't say on here.

Unfortunately, it won't matter how fantastic of a doctor one could be if they don't match. I think what he's saying is:

1) higher caliber college students --> higher caliber medical students w/ higher Step I --> More options for *matching* --> Attending
v.s
2) lower caliber college students (on *average*) --> lower caliber medical students w/ lower Step I --> Tougher to match, may have to go AOA or forgo hyper competitive fields --> Attending

Now while MD might = DO at that final attending stage (I agree with you), path #1 could be a hell of a lot easier to take in order to get to that final point.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Unfortunately, it won't matter how fantastic of a doctor one could be if they don't match. I think what he's saying is:

1) higher caliber college students --> higher caliber medical students w/ higher Step I --> More options for *matching* --> Attending
v.s
2) lower caliber college students (on *average*) --> lower caliber medical students w/ lower Step I --> Tougher to match, may have to go AOA or forgo hyper competitive fields --> Attending

Now while MD might = DO at that final attending stage (I agree with you), path #1 could be a hell of a lot easier to take in order to get to that final point.

DOs can match fine. Nothing wrong with AOA residencies. DO students also can do well on the step 1 exam.

 

[cbrons]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

Thoughts?

I think going to a Caribbean med school is really expensive and risky. If you do go you better fix whatever deficiencies you had in your study or work ethic before school begins because you really have to excel to get a US residency out of an overseas program. Simply graduating will not be anywhere near enough.

But anyway I wish them all well. Im not in that class of douchebag US MD students who wishes ill fortune on the poor bastards who went that route. Good luck to them.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

 

[Dral]

There actually has been criticism of some AOA residencies being not up to par.

Some have mentioned that these programs could run into problems with an AOA/ACGME merger.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

There actually has been criticism of some AOA residencies being not up to par.

Some have mentioned that these programs could run into problems with an AOA/ACGME merger.

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine. I wouldn't fear monger of these programs. Maybe if someone here has done one they could comment on it. However when I speak to doctors about it I haven't heard any concerns.

 

[ems2doc]

Anybody else notice how grimy that building was in the photo?

 

[type12]

Being third world leads a country to be underserved. One leads to another. I never said underserved means you're third world. I said saying you are third world means you are underserved.

A --> B doesn't mean B ---> A

Yay, we have progress! Why do your moments of clarity only occur when you are making a point but not apply when others are? You can't have double standards.

You have stated that me simply pointing out your absurd conclusions means underserved and third world mean the same thing, but now you backpedal and use a double standard to say you did not mean that? Logic is a double-edged sword, my friend, so please start making sense instead of making my point and ignoring it when you so choose.

And that provided residencies are secured is hilarious. That isn't likely coming from Caribbean so why would you just provide that?

Because that's not the point of the thesis. You're really losing track, and hiding from the truth now.

Moving on are you ready to admit that a DO and MD practicing in doctors without Borders is the same thing or no?

I really want to help you. You have a serious mental inability to grasp this. We've gone around the boat too many times. Three people - myself, Draal, and Law2Doc - have all said you have twisted what we have said (probably to defend your ego) instead of grasping our points.

So, I WANT to explain to you how you are 100% WRONG, but you have to work with me, okay? You want to focus solely on doctors without borders? Sure, I'm fine with that. I'm even fine with ignoring the fact that even in doctors without borders, DOs cannot practice in underserved areas in Spain (which, by this singular example, makes them not the same, lol). We'll ignore that, because you don't want to admit the truth that DO and MD are not the same. I'm okay with that.

We can work together, and I can help you. But first, you have to admit something for me, so I can explain. Can you do that? Okay, so first step in explaining this is acceptance:

So you applied to MD and DO schools how many times? (has to end in nth so tenth? ninth?) You are obviously just bitter. Same thing with smp bound who said carrib better then rural do (judging by his name i'm figuring a DO or MD reject)

Can you admit here, right now, that your logic is faulty and delusional? That this quote of yours shows an inherent deficiency in reasoning? That you are, 100% ABSOLUTELY, without doubt, wrong in this quote? If you can, I can explain how, when two things are not the same, they are not the same. This requires a basic, fundamental reasoning, but we have to work together to get there.

To begin the analogy, let's say we have separate but equal bathrooms, which is a wonderful idea so far. One requires a ton of paperwork to use, but after that, they are exactly the same. You see how this analogy can become too much if you aren't seeking out the point but instead jumping to conclusions? And I haven't even started the explanation, only described the setting.

 

[ah38651]

Silly question. I'm new here.

What is IMG?

 

[type12]

Silly question. I'm new here.

What is IMG?

International Medical Graduate --> MD from outside of the US, synonymous with FMG (Foreign Medical Graduate)

 

[username456789]

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine. I wouldn't fear monger of these programs. Maybe if someone here has done one they could comment on it. However when I speak to doctors about it I haven't heard any concerns.

You have absolutely no way of understanding the criteria upon which to judge the adequacy of a residency program, DO or otherwise, at this point.

The fact of the matter is that there are AOA residency programs who, in their current state, absolutely do not and will not meet ACGME standards. In my specialty, I know of quite a few that are scrambling to figure out how to stay accredited when The Merger takes place.

 

[darkjedi]

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine. I wouldn't fear monger of these programs. Maybe if someone here has done one they could comment on it. However when I speak to doctors about it I haven't heard any concerns.

wow you must know everything about the residency process now, you are probably qualified to be a program director!

 

[Ismet]

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine. I wouldn't fear monger of these programs. Maybe if someone here has done one they could comment on it. However when I speak to doctors about it I haven't heard any concerns.

Classic example of n=1. You are one pre-med who has experience with one hospital and one set of physicians at said hospital. That doesn't mean you have an understanding of the AOA residency situation on the whole.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Classic example of n=1. You are one pre-med who has experience with one hospital and one set of physicians at said hospital. That doesn't mean you have an understanding of the AOA residency situation on the whole.

That's why I asked if anyone had some experiences with these hospitals so they could share there experiences as I have shared mine. I doubt the person commenting has had experiences at every aoa hospital. Why didn't you jump on him for his comments?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You have absolutely no way of understanding the criteria upon which to judge the adequacy of a residency program, DO or otherwise, at this point.

The fact of the matter is that there are AOA residency programs who, in their current state, absolutely do not and will not meet ACGME standards. In my specialty, I know of quite a few that are scrambling to figure out how to stay accredited when The Merger takes place.

I agree I don't thats why I asked the residents and they seemed to think the residency programs are fine. I actually have talked to many DO residents at a variety of hospitals and none of them are complaining about there training.

Again with the fear mongering of AOA programs and osteopathic education. If you have never went through these programs yourself it is not your place to fear monger.

 

[Ismet]

That's why I asked if anyone had some experiences with these hospitals so they could share there experiences as I have shared mine. I doubt the person commenting has had experiences at ever aoa hospital. Why didn't you jump on him for his comments?

I agree I don't thats why I asked the residents and they seemed to think the residency programs are fine. I actually have talked to many DO residents at a variety of hospitals and none of them are complaining about there training.

Again with the fear mongering of AOA programs and osteopathic education. If you have never went through these programs yourself it is not your place to fear monger.

You haven't gone through these programs either, so it's also not your place to say everything is okay everywhere. The same way the residents you talked to think everything is fine, the residents here are sharing their experiences and what they've heard. You seem to have ignored the last sentence of @GuyWhoDoesStuff 's post.

No one is attacking you or saying you are wrong or that the residents you spoke to are wrong. No one is saying that all AOA programs are bad. No one is "fear mongering," people are just being realistic. The beauty of SDN is that you get input from a variety of different people with different experiences than just the select DO residents you have spoken to.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yay, we have progress! Why do your moments of clarity only occur when you are making a point but not apply when others are? You can't have double standards.

You have stated that me simply pointing out your absurd conclusions means underserved and third world mean the same thing, but now you backpedal and use a double standard to say you did not mean that? Logic is a double-edged sword, my friend, so please start making sense instead of making my point and ignoring it when you so choose.


Because that's not the point of the thesis. You're really losing track, and hiding from the truth now.


I really want to help you. You have a serious mental inability to grasp this. We've gone around the boat too many times. Three people - myself, Draal, and Law2Doc - have all said you have twisted what we have said (probably to defend your ego) instead of grasping our points.

So, I WANT to explain to you how you are 100% WRONG, but you have to work with me, okay? You want to focus solely on doctors without borders? Sure, I'm fine with that. I'm even fine with ignoring the fact that even in doctors without borders, DOs cannot practice in underserved areas in Spain (which, by this singular example, makes them not the same, lol). We'll ignore that, because you don't want to admit the truth that DO and MD are not the same. I'm okay with that.

We can work together, and I can help you. But first, you have to admit something for me, so I can explain. Can you do that? Okay, so first step in explaining this is acceptance:

Can you admit here, right now, that your logic is faulty and delusional? That this quote of yours shows an inherent deficiency in reasoning? That you are, 100% ABSOLUTELY, without doubt, wrong in this quote? If you can, I can explain how, when two things are not the same, they are not the same. This requires a basic, fundamental reasoning, but we have to work together to get there.

To begin the analogy, let's say we have separate but equal bathrooms, which is a wonderful idea so far. One requires a ton of paperwork to use, but after that, they are exactly the same. You see how this analogy can become too much if you aren't seeking out the point but instead jumping to conclusions? And I haven't even started the explanation, only described the setting.

Again with this nth time thing. It was more reasonable to assume you were talking about a specific number versus a non specific number. Either way nth usually refers to multiple so my original points still stands.

Also once again I'm not debating Spain. Such a broken record about Spain. You have to be because there are so few examples. If you are doing MSF the point is to do it in areas that desperately need it. Spain has enough doctors that's not really the point of MSF. As far as going to the third world countries that are grey its OK to provide humanitarian relief to them through MSF as a DO. You are the same as a MD making the doctors without borders with borders point silly. Honestly saying that DOs (or I as a DO) can't help those foreign third world countries isnt true. That's the disagreement so you got to understand the reality instead of fear mongering. I'm tired of the DO fear mongering.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You haven't gone through these programs either, so it's also not your place to say everything is okay everywhere. The same way the residents you talked to think everything is fine, the residents here are sharing their experiences and what they've heard. You seem to have ignored the last sentence of @GuyWhoDoesStuff 's post.

No one is attacking you or saying you are wrong or that the residents you spoke to are wrong. No one is saying that all AOA programs are bad. No one is "fear mongering," people are just being realistic. The beauty of SDN is that you get input from a variety of different people with different experiences than just the select DO residents you have spoken to.

These residents are allopathic I presume so I value their input on allopathic residencies but not osteopathic ones. I never said everything is OK everywhere. I'm saying there is a lot of fear mongering over AOA programs while when talking to DO residents I seem to get a different story save for a very select few.

And people are kinda fear mongering DOs.
Do you really need me to expand upon that?
-won't be able to get specialties you want
-will be in a terrible aoa program
-won't be able to help foreign countries because doing things like MSF there will be "borders"
-DOs aren't as high of a caliber

And the list goes on. However, when I speak to actual DOs this doesn't seem to be the case. I must have shadowed over 10 at this point and I have been in the hospital every day and every day I talk to DOs. They all seem to be very happy in a good residency and to have gotten specialties they want. So I don't think they are being realistic I think they are being pessimistic. Maybe its jealously or they have a superiority complex? Who knows. I speak to DOs almost every day of the week. So saying select isn't that accurate actually.

As far as the programs worried about the merger I don't really know about that. That's a question for goro not me. I also am curious to how prevalent that is. I'm also interested into why they are worried? Is it due to educational quality/technical things/ something else?

 

[mysdnhandle]

Caribbean medical education needs to die. Medical schools need to educate doctors who will serve the local populace. Caribbean medical schools should train caribbean doctors.

Also they shouldn't prey on low-stat'd rejects, get a ton of DOE loans, and leave their graduates with a poorly respected, costly degree. Nothing against docs who did that, but i think nobody can deny caribbean medical education is messed up when you can consider an alternative (US MD schools only) with much less risk and debt for graduates.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Caribbean medical education needs to die. Medical schools need to educate doctors who will serve the local populace. Caribbean medical schools should train caribbean doctors.

Also they shouldn't prey on low-stat'd rejects, get a ton of DOE loans, and leave their graduates with a poorly respected, costly degree. Nothing against docs who did that, but i think nobody can deny caribbean medical education is messed up when you can consider an alternative (US MD schools only) with much less risk and debt for graduates.

Preech brotha

 

[Dral]

Here is an interesting read that supports what guywhodoesstuff mentioned.

http://www.aocd.org/?page=ACGMEMerge

I mean, that's straight from an osteopathic organization and it doesn't paint the rosiest of pictures.

I'm guessing most primary care AOA residencies are probably in good shape for the most part. I wonder if anyone has other info about other specialties' residency programs.

 

[Law2Doc]

These residents are allopathic I presume so I value their input on allopathic residencies but not osteopathic ones... ?

You chose to engage in conversation on the pre-ALLO board, so you can't get frustrated when everybody here is coming from an allo viewpoint. I don't think there's nearly as much "fear mongering" and "straw men" (or whatever other bad cliches you are choosing to use today in lieu of using facts) as you seem to see. I do think that as a premed doing shadowing you are at an absurdly bad vantage point to evaluate residency, whether DO or MD. Sorry but you have useless exposure. We all did when we shadowed. There's not a single person in the history of SDN who advanced from premed to residency who found that they had actually understood and appreciated everything accurately early on. This isn't a Transparent path. We hide our dirty laundry. We make people buy into the company line. Lots of eye openers, no matter your path. the most important skill in medicine is realizing what you don't know. This hasnt been your strong suit in this thread. You will get there, but fighting residents about what is involved in matching or what constitutes an up to par residency really is bringing your pocket knife to a Gunfight. In 4 years you might have some semblance of a useful perspective. Until then you are just a guy misunderstanding numbers and not having much of a vantage point.

 

[type12]

Again with this nth time thing. It was more reasonable to assume you were talking about a specific number versus a non specific number. Either way nth usually refers to multiple so my original points still stands.

Again with the delusions! We cannot have a constructive conversation if you cannot admit your problems. By even saying this, you are contradicting yourself so many times, asking to be taken literally, but then do not do others the same courtesy? In what way is it MORE reasonable to assume that I meant something OTHER than what I said? This cuts at the core of your problem, and explains why you have a tough time seeing the other side. You aren't listening to words, but just choosing a meaning that you wish to fight with. You are shadow boxing.

Also once again I'm not debating Spain. Such a broken record about Spain. You have to be because there are so few examples. If you are doing MSF the point is to do it in areas that desperately need it. Spain has enough doctors that's not really the point of MSF. As far as going to the third world countries that are grey its OK to provide humanitarian relief to them through MSF as a DO. You are the same as a MD making the doctors without borders with borders point silly. Honestly saying that DOs (or I as a DO) can't help those foreign third world countries isnt true. That's the disagreement so you got to understand the reality instead of fear mongering. I'm tired of the DO fear mongering.

Such a broken record on Doctors without Borders. You have to be because the burden of proof lies on you, to show there is equal treatment in all grey countries on that map (and no, Jones, an article listing four countries doesn't cut it, nor does it describe any friction/lack of friction DOs may have). If you are telling the AOA, the very people who manage osteopathic medicine, to shut the f### up and ignore the legalities in other countries, that's on you, not me.

You can say all you want about "third world" countries. It doesn't change my thesis, which you keep avoiding because you know I'm right. Hey, let's do an exercise since you're having so much difficulty: what was my point about DOs and practicing in other countries? You're still shadow boxing to hide what little respect and courtesy you have left but don't deserve. Calling people troll and c### shows your maturity level.

Get out of your delusions of grandeur, and stop acting like DOs are some persecuted cult or Scientology. The truth is what it is. I'm sorry if it hurts you.

 

[wxman393]

The mentality of some of these kids absolutely kills me.

"Ya, I know I only got a 25 on my MCAT, and my GPA is crappy, but I KNOW I'm gonna be a great doctor. I'll just go to a Caribbean school and I'll be a doctor."

So you're telling me that you couldn't really muster a competitive application against the average pre-med in the US, but you're gonna go take Step 1 and compete against the best of those premeds who actually got into medical school? What makes people think they'll get a good score on Step 1 (which is the exam that plays a major role in determining if and where you match) if they can't even hack the MCAT?

I'm curious...what is the relationship between MCAT scores and Step 1 scores?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine.

I just...I can't...I don't even know...

Why do I keep coming back to this thread?

You've done extensive shadowing at ONE hospital...therefore you can adequately judge the quality of their residency programs. And by extension all DO residencies.

Unbelievable.

 

[AlteredScale]

 

[DermViser]

Ok well I'm pre med and want to go into DO to become a primary care physician. I have a father who is a plastic surgeon and I hate that specialty. I know I don't want to do any specialty with surgery. So I'm thinking that a bunch of people who are going DO with me are in the same boat since thats the mission of DO schools. Its something DO's are very proud about.

As far as my knowledge of the match goes pretty much my whole family is in the medical profession and have seen a bunch of relatives go through it (none DO to be fair. I will be the first . I feel like I have some experience with it. Also I posted numbers and encourage people to look at match lists. That can't be debated.

And this part is what ticks me off. You think just because on average MDs have better stats they are better doctors? Are people who go to harvard better doctors then people who go to FIU or PONCE? Are you really going to make an argument that undergraduate performance is the key deciding factor to the quality of doctor you are? Have you ever worked with a DO? They go through the same training (plus OMM) and are actually very good doctors and are on par with their allopathic peers.

I understand you may think you are better then me or DO's but your wrong. That attitude is beyond annoying. You sound like a word I can't say on here.

Your sounding real childish and uninformed. Look at the match lists of FIU vs. Harvard. There is NO COMPARISON. You should apologize to @Dral.

 

[demayette]

I took your advice. Here's the match list of a good DO school: http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/match_2014.php
Here's a match list for a "low tier" MD: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ponce-school-of-medicine-match.514049/

I must admit that I'd much rather be at Ponce.

That ponce match is as good as many mid tier allo match... You have about 15 people who match into ACGME opth (3), ortho(2), general surgery(7), radiology(3) for a class of about 50 students, that is damn good IMO! No DO schools can top that...

 

[DermViser]

Early morning, misread. Whoops.

The difference is I can admit when I make a mistake or am wrong.

You can keep pretending to believe whatever you want. At the end of the day, you're still going to be a DO and have to live with the difficulties and biases you choose to ignore/downplay. If you're shooting for primary care, then you're likely be fine. But I worry that some other premedical student will someday read what you write and believe it, and subsequently not understand the gravity of the decision to choose osteopathic medical school.

This x 1000.

 

[type12]

I just...I can't...I don't even know...

Why do I keep coming back to this thread?

You've done extensive shadowing at ONE hospital...therefore you can adequately judge the quality of their residency programs. And by extension all DO residencies.

Unbelievable.

If you can't get enough, checkout his "DO fear mongering" thread in the pre-osteo, where he is crying that everyone is a big meanie (when in fact he was rude a-hole, and somehow thought we should be kind in turn). The hilarious thing is, he is promoting greater separation of DO and MDs, while trying to say there's no difference. I'm dumbfounded... "There's no difference between DO and MD! MDs are all jerks! DOs are awesome - but somehow not different! I'll show them how much superior - but not different - the DO race is. They are the chosen Aryan race that history once tried to create!"

This guy... I swear. The best thing is, the responses are the same as here (minus him being a delusional jerk), and he's agreeing with them.

Your sounding real childish and uninformed. Look at the match lists of FIU vs. Harvard. There is NO COMPARISON. You should apologize to @Dral.

No apology for me? He's called me a troll and a c### lol. I'm so so so hurt, I cry at night caring about his opinion.

 

[DermViser]

No apology for me? He's called me a troll and a c### lol. I'm so so so hurt, I cry at night caring about his opinion.

Well you too. I didn't see his full screed, but he said to Dral, "You sound like a word I can't say on here." so I assumed he was was going to call her a sexist curse word.

 

[DermViser]

I wonder what's with NYTs recent obsession with medical schools...

Probably more to "demystify" the process for the layman. They have an article on PAs as well (so I guess the general public can get used to seeing them). I swear the NY Times is like cheerleaders for the implementing of Obamacare.

 

[DermViser]

Can any SDNer tell me what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0

Students at the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem work on a mannequin with a heart condition. CreditOzier Muhammad/The New York Times

 

[Conflagration]

I'm not nearly experienced enough to comment on residency statuses or issues one faces post-graduation from medical school, but I just wanted to mention that while reading the 7 pages of this thread, I've had an advert for the St. James School of Medicine in the Caribbean in the banner at the top of the page.

Carry on, I shall lurk. ^^

 

[Conflagration]

Darn it, tried to edit and hit the wrong button.

 

[xffan624]

Can any SDNer tell me what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0

Students at the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem work on a mannequin with a heart condition. CreditOzier Muhammad/The New York Times

Lol... she's on the wrong side. Why would they post a picture of this?

 

[DermViser]

Lol... she's on the wrong side. Why would they post a picture of this?

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!!

If they were trying to show how equal DO med students are to MD med students, then they failed. It's funny bc out of all the DO schools - they picked the worst one - Touro in Harlem, NY.