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God bless ya, brother, but I think the odds of winning Powerball would be greater for a D.O. than landing ortho and derm after the merger. Lots of ortho DO programs are not going to survive the accreditation process. I would predict 60%+ of all ortho programs will disappear. Ugly truth.

As an older non-trad. student I would keep an open mind as you progress through school and you'd be suprised what you get interested in. I knew lots of one-track minded guys who started out as "ortho brohs" in MS1 and ended up matching into FM, ER, and even peds!

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God bless ya, brother, but I think the odds of winning Powerball would be greater for a D.O. than landing ortho and derm after the merger. Lots of ortho DO programs are not going to survive the accreditation process. I would predict 60%+ of all ortho programs will disappear. Ugly truth.

As an older non-trad. student I would keep an open mind as you progress through school and you'd be suprised what you get interested in. I knew lots of one-track minded guys who started out as "ortho brohs" in MS1 and ended up matching into FM, ER, and even peds!
60%? Where’d you get this from?

Only one is closing as of now, almost 50% have already been initially accredited, and the rest are in the process.
 
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60%? Where’d you get this from?

Only one is closing as of now, almost 50% have already been initially accredited, and the rest are in the process.

Only 38% (16 of 42) have initial accreditation, the remaining have "Continued pre-accreditation" Which essentially means the program hasn't met baseline requirements and will close if they do not change/meet ACGME requirements.
 
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Only 38% (16 of 42) have initial accreditation, the remaining have "Continued pre-accreditation" Which essentially means the program hasn't met baseline requirements and will close if they do not change/meet ACGME requirements.
Far fetched though to say those 60 percent will close.
 
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Far fetched though to say those 60 percent will close.
I mean the clock is already ticking and if they haven't yet gotten their **** together I don't see them doing it in the next 18 mos.
 
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I mean the clock is already ticking and if they haven't yet gotten their **** together I don't see them doing it in the next 18 mos.

12 months* all programs need to have full accreditation by May 2019. If they do not they are no longer allowed to match and must either close and transfer remaining residents or teach out the remaining residents.
 
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12 months* all programs need to have full accreditation by May 2019. If they do not they are no longer allowed to match and must either close and transfer remaining residents or teach out the remaining residents.
I have been watching the pre-accredition residencies closely as well. I am thinking one of my backups will be gone by next year. Every DO residency should have had initial accreditation by now, the ones that don't are pretty much near toast in my mind at this point.
 
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I have been watching the pre-accredition residencies closely as well. I am thinking one of my backups will be gone by next year. Every DO residency should have had initial accreditation by now, the ones that don't are pretty much near toast in my mind at this point.

Yeah I’m sorry to hear that man. But you really have to ask yourself if you can really risk applying or ranking those programs. I know I left a lot of programs out when making my rank list back in January because of their accreditation status and how I felt about whether or not they were going to get it.
 
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Yeah I’m sorry to hear that man. But you really have to ask yourself if you can really risk applying or ranking those programs. I know I left a lot of programs out when making my rank list back in January because of their accreditation status and how I felt about whether or not they were going to get it.
Its alright, there are plenty of other fish. I just had a good interaction at my schools hospital day and thought they would be an alright place if things didn't work out how I wanted. I hope they pull through, but like I said, in my mind, they are already toast.
 
Nobody is obligated to spoon feed you Information just because you created a thread and asked for advice. Especially on a topic that’s been discussed several times. Ortho is going to be extremely difficult to match and you may want to start with making sure you can excel in your first year.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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4/700+ Ortho spots went to DO's in ACGME last year. Good luck.
Where did you get this info? My school alone had 3 people match (LSU, UWash, and New Mexico) and we are by no means a “top tier” DO school on this forum lol
 
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Where did you get this info? My school alone had 3 people match (LSU, UWash, and New Mexico) and we are by no means a “top tier” DO school on this forum lol
charting outcomes 2017
 
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Where did you get this info? My school alone had 3 people match (LSU, UWash, and New Mexico) and we are by no means a “top tier” DO school on this forum lol

It varies year by year. He is talking about 2017.
 
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I have to admit this is a little frustrating because I don't seem to be getting a lot of advice on how to flesh out my portfolio - just a lot of people telling me I shouldn't even bother setting my sights that high. Thanks to QueenJames though, I'm a great test-taker so I'll be setting my sights on 240+ at least.

From what I've seen the most important factors regarding matching include your board scores, grades, rotation performance, and in general your connections/interpersonal skills.

I've never heard of anyone getting a rejection just because they're D.O. - in fact, someone matched from my school just last year.

It's a little confusing/irritating to get so many 'should've gone M.D.' posts - Yeah, great, thanks.

I understand why some of you are telling me to 'make sure that I want it' - you're right, I'm not 100% yet but I plan on making connections and talking to my colleagues/professors to solidify my decision. Until then, I plan on making myself the most competitive D.O. Candidate possible, and that's the area in which I'd like advice.

I won't be applying to any sort of residency for a while, and I understand my opinions will likely change over and over. However, I've been drawn to surgery all my life and I know this is going to be an uphill battle.
Your gunna need 260+ most likely as a DO to match ortho, but check the latest NRMP Charting the Outcomes for the data on that.
 
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The 2016 publication did not include Ortho because fewer than 7 DO candidates matched into it as their preferred specialty...
Charting Outcomes is only published every 2 years. I haven't heard if another DO version is planned.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf
It was from NRMP, you all made me actually go back and find my old post from February when this exact same topic came up. And it was actually 3/700+ spots. If OP wants to know how to match Ortho, he should go MD and increase his chances at least 3x (probably more like 5x better in 2022, seeing how badly the accreditation is going for our spots).


Debating withdrawing acceptance to pursue MD

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf
 
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It was from NRMP, you all made me actually go back and find my old post from February when this exact same topic came up. And it was actually 3/700+ spots. If OP wants to know how to match Ortho, he should go MD and increase his chances at least 3x (probably more like 5x better in 2022, seeing how badly the accreditation is going for our spots).


Debating withdrawing acceptance to pursue MD

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf
Thank you! Page 31 (very enlightening).
 
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Thank you! Page 31 (very enlightening).
I agree, should put in perspective those who are encouraging this action.

Its 39 in the PDF, 31 of the report for those who are wondering.
 
Was going to say, this was definitely not a 4/700 year lol

Actually it was a 5/742 year this year. DOs haven't been doing substantially better in the ACGME match in orthopaedics by any measure, it's effectively unchanged. Check page 8 for yourself for the 2018 results.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Main-Match-Result-and-Data-2018.pdf

Idk what DO school you go to but 3 DOs matching ACGME Ortho from the same school sounds fishy but hey, what do I know.
 
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Actually it was a 5/742 year this year. DOs haven't been doing substantially better in the ACGME match in orthopaedics by any measure, it's effectively unchanged. Check page 8 for yourself for the 2018 results.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Main-Match-Result-and-Data-2018.pdf

Idk what DO school you go to but 3 DOs matching ACGME Ortho from the same school sounds fishy but hey, what do I know.
I see we went upto 5 this year, even tho some of our programs already joined the match. I like how its the same page as last year.
upload_2018-6-6_18-21-42.png


They have separated the data alittle differently this year, they lumped IMG and FMG together. Interesting. 13 of them matched Ortho for those wondering.
 
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So a little update: there were 727 Ortho spots last year, and this year there were 742. I think its fairly safe to assume the majority of those were former AOA, and yet, only 2 more DO's matched Ortho than last year despite a gain of 15 spots. Better gun harder.
 
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So a little update: there were 727 Ortho spots last year, and this year there were 742. I think its fairly safe to assume the majority of those were former AOA, and yet, only 2 more DO's matched Ortho than last year despite a gain of 15 spots. Better gun harder.
I've been seeing something similar in Derm, I'm afraid.
 
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Actually it was a 5/742 year this year. DOs haven't been doing substantially better in the ACGME match in orthopaedics by any measure, it's effectively unchanged. Check page 8 for yourself for the 2018 results.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Main-Match-Result-and-Data-2018.pdf

Idk what DO school you go to but 3 DOs matching ACGME Ortho from the same school sounds fishy but hey, what do I know.
I went to SOMA. Not fishy, you are simply just wrong. Another instance of keyboard warriors thinking they are right and better than everyone else!
 
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I went to SOMA. Not fishy, you are simply just wrong. Another instance of keyboard warriors thinking they are right and better than everyone else!
I mean given that it’s June and SOMA hasn’t posted a match list yet all we have is your word man.
 
It was from NRMP, you all made me actually go back and find my old post from February when this exact same topic came up. And it was actually 3/700+ spots. If OP wants to know how to match Ortho, he should go MD and increase his chances at least 3x (probably more like 5x better in 2022, seeing how badly the accreditation is going for our spots).


Debating withdrawing acceptance to pursue MD

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2017.pdf
Its probably been answered before, but to clarify, and even better yet lets use this years numbers, 5 DO's matched into ACGME ortho programs correct? And there were ~750 spots. Do we actually know how many DO's applied to ACGME ortho? And of those who applied, how many had >245 step? How many had ~5 research experiences? I mean its easy to claim that it is impossible for DO's to match, but if only 5 out of however many were qualified then it doesn't really do anything.

If you look at the SF match for ophthalmology for example, 10/28 DO's matched, so its better data, but one still has to ask how qualified those other 18 DO's who didn't match were.
 
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I mean given that it’s June and SOMA hasn’t posted a match list yet all we have is your word man.

:rolleyes: He named the programs ... and either way it’s true. I have non SDN sources that have confirmed it. UW, UNM, and LSU I believe.

And TCOM had a UTMB Galveston if I remember correctly.
 
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I mean given that it’s June and SOMA hasn’t posted a match list yet all we have is your word man.
Not my fault no one on here believes anything people say
 
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Its probably been answered before, but to clarify, and even better yet lets use this years numbers, 5 DO's matched into ACGME ortho programs correct? And there were ~750 spots. Do we actually know how many DO's applied to ACGME ortho? And of those who applied, how many had >245 step? How many had ~5 research experiences? I mean its easy to claim that it is impossible for DO's to match, but if only 5 out of however many were qualified then it doesn't really do anything.

If you look at the SF match for ophthalmology for example, 10/28 DO's matched, so its better data, but one still has to ask how qualified those other 18 DO's who didn't match were.
Okay this one will be a bit harder to figure out, but I found some general interesting things:
upload_2018-6-7_10-15-42.png

Just to settle the how many withdrew from the match thing: about 1437 out of the original 6054 who applied (seems like nearly everyone entered NBME). Out of 4617 who actually entered the match and made a rank list 3771 matched, and 846 did not. As noted in the 20% not matching thread only 1/6th of those found a position in SOAP.

Now onto Ortho.
upload_2018-6-7_10-22-1.png

upload_2018-6-7_10-22-14.png

Unfortunately they didn't break it down by Osto/IMG here, so we know that 56/91 didn't match between IMG/FMG/DO. Note that this number can include non-seniors (and I believe weird offcycle spots in PGY2 or w/e if I understood) so its a bit higher than the 13 +5 you expected (35 matched to 755 total spots, even tho only 18 IA's matched to 742 PGY1 available).

upload_2018-6-7_10-23-27.png

upload_2018-6-7_10-24-12.png

Light green is percentage of Independents who didn't match, currently sitting at 61.5 to 13.6 (4.5x better match rate for US seniors).

So I don't have charting outcomes kind of data, but this is what I see right now.
 
According to another thread on SDN,

14 osteopathic orthopedic programs have gained ACGME accreditation.

The following programs now are ACGME accredited:
Broward
Plainview
Metro health
Cuyahoga falls
Lansing
Botsford
Riverside
Nassau
South pointe
McLaren Oakland
Genesys
Inspira/Vineland
Ventura
Harrisburg

Does anyone know the breakdown of how many of these spots went to DO students vs MD students in this year's match?
 
OP seems like you have made up your mind about attending a DO school. It is not impossible matching into acgme ortho as stated by many posters above. However It is improbable. Even two similarly driven people going to MD vs DO school would have disparate outcomes due to systematic differences in access to resources. Home programs, access to research , and ability to build relationships with residency programs are just some of the large differences. Here is an example
image.png

DOI:

10.7556/jaoa.2014.124

MD schools have 800X the research funding compared to DO schools. My single modest/lower ranked school has as much research funding as all of the osteopathic schools combined with 26 times less students. This is not to say you cant match, but it becomes difficult. Your MD peers will have been attending grand rounds at their ortho home programs for 3 years and will have built relationships with the residents and Attendings in the program by the time match rolls around compared to your networking. If you have a similar resume compared to your MD peers you will have similar chances at matching, however getting that similar resume is a herculean task and is the reason a large number of the posters in this thread are saying you should seriously considering taking the time and effort to get into an MD school if your MCAT is as good as your claim.
 
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OP seems like you have made up your mind about attending a DO school. It is not impossible matching into acgme ortho as stated by many posters above. However It is improbable. Even two similarly driven people going to MD vs DO school would have disparate outcomes due to systematic differences in access to resources. Home programs, access to research , and ability to build relationships with residency programs are just some of the large differences. Here is an example
image.png

DOI:

10.7556/jaoa.2014.124

MD schools have 800X the research funding compared to DO schools. My single modest/lower ranked school has as much research funding as all of the osteopathic schools combined with 26 times less students. This is not to say you cant match, but it becomes difficult. Your MD peers will have been attending grand rounds at their ortho home programs for 3 years and will have built relationships with the residents and Attendings in the program by the time match rolls around compared to your networking. If you have a similar resume compared to your MD peers you will have similar chances at matching, however getting that similar resume is a herculean task and is the reason a large number of the posters in this thread are saying you should seriously considering taking the time and effort to get into an MD school if your MCAT is as good as your claim.

This is spot on
 
According to another thread on SDN,

14 osteopathic orthopedic programs have gained ACGME accreditation.

The following programs now are ACGME accredited:
Broward
Plainview
Metro health
Cuyahoga falls
Lansing
Botsford
Riverside
Nassau
South pointe
McLaren Oakland
Genesys
Inspira/Vineland
Ventura
Harrisburg

Does anyone know the breakdown of how many of these spots went to DO students vs MD students in this year's match?
Only Broward and Plainview put spots in the MD match. All others stayed in the DO match.
 
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According to another thread on SDN,

14 osteopathic orthopedic programs have gained ACGME accreditation.

The following programs now are ACGME accredited:
Broward
Plainview
Metro health
Cuyahoga falls
Lansing
Botsford
Riverside
Nassau
South pointe
McLaren Oakland
Genesys
Inspira/Vineland
Ventura
Harrisburg

Does anyone know the breakdown of how many of these spots went to DO students vs MD students in this year's match?

I crunched the numbers and at least 43 DO's matched into ACGME accredited ortho programs through the AOA match (PS you forgot Valley Consortium in Modesto, CA on your list of ACGME programs).

Only 3 of the programs listed above put a total of 6 spots in the NRMP match. Broward had 2 of 3 spots, Plainview had 3 of 6 spots, and Nassau had 1 of 2. I’m not sure if all 6 of those potential spots went to MD's but I wouldn't be surprised since most of the competitive applicants I know matched in the AOA match into ACGME and/or AOA programs and were withdrawn from the NRMP match. That left the DO hopefuls who didnt match + the mystical unicorns with massive cajones who skipped the AOA match entirely. I didn't meet any unicorns this year, but I'd guess they're the ones listed in the NRMP match report as DO's matching ACGME ortho.

Overall, the amount of DO's matching ACGME ortho this year would be 43 + the amount of DO's listed as matching ortho on "Charting outcomes" or NRMP Match Report.
 
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I crunched the numbers and at least 43 DO's matched into ACGME accredited ortho programs through the AOA match (PS you forgot Valley Consortium in Modesto, CA on your list of ACGME programs).

Only 3 of the programs listed above put a total of 6 spots in the NRMP match. Broward had 2 of 3 spots, Plainview had 3 of 6 spots, and Nassau had 1 of 2. I’m not sure if all 6 of those potential spots went to MD's but I wouldn't be surprised since most of the competitive applicants I know matched in the AOA match into ACGME and/or AOA programs and were withdrawn from the NRMP match. That left the DO hopefuls who didnt match + the mystical unicorns with massive cajones who skipped the AOA match entirely. I didn't meet any unicorns this year, but I'd guess they're the ones listed in the NRMP match report as DO's matching ACGME ortho.

Overall, the amount of DO's matching ACGME ortho this year would be 43 + the amount of DO's listed as matching ortho on "Charting outcomes" or NRMP Match Report.
I imagine several of these will maintain a DO preference so long as the applicant has great boards.

Someone else pointed out how some of the specialty programs may also try to add in an osteopathic recognition/requirement for OMM, essentially making it even more difficult for MD's to take those spots. So there are several "safeguards" in place that will still allow DO's who are qualified to get into the specialty they want.
 
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I imagine several of these will maintain a DO preference so long as the applicant has great boards.

Someone else pointed out how some of the specialty programs may also try to add in an osteopathic recognition/requirement for OMM, essentially making it even more difficult for MD's to take those spots. So there are several "safeguards" in place that will still allow DO's who are qualified to get into the specialty they want.
Yeah I talked to an AOA ortho PD in my city and he told us that they will have a 100-200 Omm requirement to be considered. Basically a “thanks but no thanks to MDs” (his actual words).
 
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Your gunna need 260+ most likely as a DO to match ortho, but check the latest NRMP Charting the Outcomes for the data on that.
Different speciality but arguably more competitive. I know a DO from my school that matched MD derm with a 240 and solid research. He told us that his killed his audition rotation where he matched and they loved him but no other connections.
 
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Different speciality but arguably more competitive. I know a DO from my school that matched MD derm with a 240 and solid research. He told us that his killed his audition rotation where he matched and they loved him but no other connections.

same thing happened at my school 2 years ago (ACGME derm 241 step 1)
 
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Sorry that I don’t believe every unsubstantiated claim anonymous voices on the internet say
I substantiated those claims with a match list based off an email from the administration given to graduating seniors in a different thread.
 
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Different speciality but arguably more competitive. I know a DO from my school that matched MD derm with a 240 and solid research. He told us that his killed his audition rotation where he matched and they loved him but no other connections.

I know for a fact one of the super DO matches this year had below a 240. Their research is what set them apart and their CV was on par with MD applicants to that specialty.
 
God bless ya, brother, but I think the odds of winning Powerball would be greater for a D.O. than landing ortho and derm after the merger. Lots of ortho DO programs are not going to survive the accreditation process. I would predict 60%+ of all ortho programs will disappear. Ugly truth.

As an older non-trad student I would keep an open mind as you progress through school and you'd be suprised what you get interested in. I knew lots of one-track minded guys who started out as "ortho brohs" in MS1 and ended up matching into FM, ER, and even peds!

As a nontraditional student (second career), who went DO, matched ortho in the first residency class and now have gone through the ACGME accreditation process (myself and co chief did the majority of the paperwork) I think I'm uniquely suited to answer many of these questions.

To claim 60% of programs will disappear is (1) purely subjective based on NO information but just an opinion of a PRE-medical student (at least thats what it says under his/her name) and (2) absolutely ludicrous. How do I know? Because I know personally what the issues are holding back many of the programs from accreditation as we spoke to many programs discussing areas that they passed but we were cited as issues. For the majority of programs mostly its "paperwork" (wrong PLAs, lack of formal educational objectives for each rotation, faculty associated research, etc). These are ALL correctable issues. So, my personal projection is a loss of 5-10. Thank goodness we just got accredited, its been good for our program as a whole, but will be tough to maintain.

However, as others have stated DO ortho spots are being farmed out to the NRMP match. We recently had a meeting this week where we were placed under pressure by our governing board to select at least one spot for the NRMP match (until the merger we have to designate how many spots we want for the DO match and how many for the MD match), so as to not look "prejudice" against MD.. my eyes rolled heavy on that one.

So I would agree that as a whole DO ortho spots are being lost. Our program director's mantra is that we are first an osteopathic training program, but the outside pressure is making it hard to stay that way.

I'll echo what others have stated as well. You definitely can go into medical school with a "bias" on what specialty you may want, but have an open mind. Really first determine if you want to be a doctor (the nature of medicine has changed so much and if you havent spent months shadowing doctors or working with them you are going to be really surprised) and in your first 1-2 years KILL all the classes, as if you are going ortho, do some good research during the summer time (this is NOT hard, no matter what people say. I've got plenty of projects I could put you to work on. You just need to be a little creative) and reassess your goals end of your second year.

I was 100% peds going into med school and ended up ortho. Quite a switch.

Then which ever school you end up going, find the connections during your third and fourth year that will give you a leg up among the other students.

If you want to do Ortho, I cant recommend either MD or DO school as both routes are so extremely tough. As others have argued numbers, stats, amount of applicants,etc -- I dont really care about that. To me thats putting the cart before the donkey because for both schools DO/MD you need to be top of your game. If you are, you'll match. If you are middle road then you'll struggle on either end and you'll have to end up relying on the odds. So bottom line, instead of arguing which school its easier to match ortho just promise yourself you'll be the best and put in the time to do it. I know others will disagree, stating why not find the spot that makes it the easiest, etc, etc. . I just dont see life like that. The chips fell for me, I ended up in a DO program, and I put forth the effort to match an ortho residency PERIOD. OP, you can as well. feel free to PM me and we can chat anytime.
 
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For the majority of programs mostly its "paperwork" (wrong PLAs, lack of formal educational objectives for each rotation, faculty associated research, etc). These are ALL correctable issues. So, my personal projection is a loss of 5-10. Thank goodness we just got accredited, its been good for our program as a whole, but will be tough to maintain.

The biggest drawback I've seen with DO ortho programs is many of them are based in a consortium of small community hospitals. That may be great for one-on-one supervision with attendings and getting sufficient case numbers, but many of the specialty rotations like peds ER and trauma have to be done at unaffiliated tertiary centers. Most of the MD ortho programs are based at large academic centers and have more rigorous didactics. Also like you said, most DO ortho programs have very little emphasis on research.

That being said, ortho is still a very competitive residency no matter where you go so the odds of producing a well-trained competent orthopod even at a small community hospital program is still high. These are gunners who aren't the types of people to do the minimum work necessary to get boarded.
 
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If you want to do Ortho, I cant recommend either MD or DO school as both routes are so extremely tough.
It would be disingenuous to say that they are both of equal “toughness” ....the match stats back this up.
 
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It would be disingenuous to say that they are both of equal “toughness” ....the match stats back this up.

As one who was involved in both match processes (you are free to peruse my previous posts reporting on my experience and why I chose the DO match route instead of the MD route, despite being told I had a spot). I don't care how you interpret the data. Both are extremely tough. I can 100% positively say it took Herculean effort that cast a web of repercussions throughout mine and my family's life. This story unfolds through the countless MD and DO orthopedic residents I personally know (many I consider my brothers/sisters at this point) that have gone through the process.

I would also highly recommend for you to start attending a local journal club and begin to understand that no matter what statistics say, they don't always translate into clinical relevance, which is extremely difficult to judge. In this situation, I'd take personal experience over a numbers game any day. This is the one reason why despite leaving medical school 5 years ago I continue to post my experience here to help others reach their goal of obtaining an orthopedic match. Bean counting (and manipulating- LOL) definitely has its place, don't get me wrong I rely on it often, but it has to always be held at arms length.
 
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