Nontraditional Student - Aiming for Ortho, Need Guidance

[Orthojoe]

The biggest drawback I've seen with DO ortho programs is many of them are based in a consortium of small community hospitals. That may be great for one-on-one supervision with attendings and getting sufficient case numbers, but many of the specialty rotations like peds ER and trauma have to be done at unaffiliated tertiary centers. Most of the MD ortho programs are based at large academic centers and have more rigorous didactics. Also like you said, most DO ortho programs have very little emphasis on research.

That being said, ortho is still a very competitive residency no matter where you go so the odds of producing a well-trained competent orthopod even at a small community hospital program is still high. These are gunners who aren't the types of people to do the minimum work necessary to get boarded.

True, many orthopedic programs are community based and thus why I consider the ACGME merger to be very beneficial in that it requires adding many facets these programs were missing.

I just wanted to clarify though, that the ortho (DO or MD) curriculum doesn't include Peds ER. I get what your saying though. We have two of our subspecialties (onc and peds) at away spots (1.5 hrs away)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

As one who was involved in both match processes (you are free to peruse my previous posts reporting on my experience and why I chose the DO match route instead of the MD route, despite being told I had a spot). I don't care how you interpret the data. Both are extremely tough. I can 100% positively say it took Herculean effort that cast a web of repercussions throughout mine and my family's life. This story unfolds through the countless MD and DO orthopedic residents I personally know (many I consider my brothers/sisters at this point) that have gone through the process.

I would also highly recommend for you to start attending a local journal club and begin to understand that no matter what statistics say, they don't always translate into clinical relevance, which is extremely difficult to judge. In this situation, I'd take personal experience over a numbers game any day. This is the one reason why despite leaving medical school 5 years ago I continue to post my experience here to help others reach their goal of obtaining an orthopedic match. Bean counting (and manipulating- LOL) definitely has its place, don't get me wrong I rely on it often, but it has to always be held at arms length.

Nobody here is doubting the difficulty of matching into Ortho. It takes a special person to be competitive. I am surely not one of those. However, all things even, matching as a DO is even more challenging than matching as an MD for many of the reasons mentioned in other posts. This is not just a numbers game, it is reality. I’m not sure why people beat around the bush with this. I like the idea of doing what you can and working hard but keeping an open mind and not letting your ego get ahead of you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

However, all things even, matching as a DO is even more challenging than matching as an MD

Simply matching the field of ortho is not necessarily harder for a DO in terms of raw numbers. If you are strictly talking about matching only traditionally MD programs then yeah but just matching the field of ortho is not more difficult.

10 years ago it was actually easier as a DO than an MD because of the plethora of AOA programs.

I don’t know why you are trying to argue with a 5th year resident, who is intimately involved with the inner workings of resident selection at that, and is actually in the field.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Simply matching the field of ortho is not necessarily harder for a DO in terms of raw numbers. If you are strictly talking about matching only traditionally MD programs then yeah but just matching the field of ortho is not more difficult.

10 years ago it was actually easier as a DO than an MD because of the plethora of AOA programs.

I don’t know why you are trying to argue with a 5th year resident, who is intimately involved with the inner workings of resident selection at that, and is actually in the field.

Umm how about stop trying to create drama where there is none..geez. I'm not arguing with anyone. Plus, I'm not just going to take the advice of a random resident on SDN lol although I'm sure he/she knows what he knows. I have spoken to multiple PDs, residents and students who have recently matched into ortho. Its hard. Period. For DOs even harder but not impossible. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[DrMcLovin]

DO: Lotto winners
MD: ~4% One still doesn't just waltz into these merely by having an MD

While I get your overall point, DO’s had 1.8% and MD had 3.9% chance. I dont think its entirely correct to say getting ortho as a DO is like winning the lottery, but your odds would have doubled in 2018 if you were a US MD senior applying.

 

[Goro]

While I get your overall point, DO’s had 1.8% and MD had 3.9% chance. I dont think its entirely correct to say getting ortho as a DO is like winning the lottery, but your odds would have doubled in 2018 if you were a US MD senior applying.

Going from 2 to 4 % is a real blockbuster increase, isn't it?

 

[LongDucDong]

While I get your overall point, DO’s had 1.8% and MD had 3.9% chance. I dont think its entirely correct to say getting ortho as a DO is like winning the lottery, but your odds would have doubled in 2018 if you were a US MD senior applying.

Going from 2 to 4 % is a real blockbuster increase, isn't it?

I don't understand why people look at the numbers and say "1.8% of DO's matched ortho, therefore if you are a DO you have a 1.8% chance of matching ortho" that is a horrible stats interpretation. We have no idea how many people applied ortho, self-selected out b/c of a weak app, or never had aspirations of ortho in the first place. My class has 3 students who genuinely want to do orthopedics, so if all 3 match ortho, that's a 100% success rate, but a lot of the knuckleheads on this thread would look at that and say "3 students is 2% of the class, so that means that as an incoming student you only have a 2% chance of matching ortho". I see the desire to look at the numbers, and I certainly think its important to go into this with eyes wide open, but the advice and stats interpretation here is just downright misleading.

Make no mistake, matching ortho is exceedingly difficult, but if the armchair analysis of some unknown people on sdn is enough to dissuade you, then you have much bigger problems. I may not match ortho, but I'm absolutely going to try. It is certainly hard, but if I set myself up right, it is patently false to say that I only have a 1.8% chance b/c only 1.8% of DO's matched ortho. That's just dumb.

 

[Goro]

I don't understand why people look at the numbers and say "1.8% of DO's matched ortho, therefore if you are a DO you have a 1.8% chance of matching ortho" that is a horrible stats interpretation. We have no idea how many people applied ortho, self-selected out b/c of a weak app, or never had aspirations of ortho in the first place. My class has 3 students who genuinely want to do orthopedics, so if all 3 match ortho, that's a 100% success rate, but a lot of the knuckleheads on this thread would look at that and say "3 students is 2% of the class, so that means that as an incoming student you only have a 2% chance of matching ortho". I see the desire to look at the numbers, and I certainly think its important to go into this with eyes wide open, but the advice and stats interpretation here is just downright misleading.

Make no mistake, matching ortho is exceedingly difficult, but if the armchair analysis of some unknown people on sdn is enough to dissuade you, then you have much bigger problems. I may not match ortho, but I'm absolutely going to try. It is certainly hard, but if I set myself up right, it is patently false to say that I only have a 1.8% chance b/c only 1.8% of DO's matched ortho. That's just dumb.

You're right, we don't the backstories of the people who applied, and didn't.

All we can go on is the data that we have, such as it is.

My issue is that many people here still think that magically, the MD = ortho.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My issue is that many people here still think that magically, the MD = ortho.

I have literally never seen this sentiment expressed. Ever.

 

[Goro]

I have literally never seen this sentiment expressed. Ever.

Y'all have that attitude. That "more doors = you going through" I've seen it from you and a good number of self-hating DOs. So I reiterate. Just merely having the MD does NOT mean you get to waltz into an uber-residency, not matter how much those PDs will not take DOs.

Y'all chose this profession. Unless you have pics of the guns put to your heads that made you do this? I'm aware of its deficits. But it's it's also far better to light candle than curse the darkness. So quit taking a dump on YOUR profession and revel in the fact that you will be doctors some day. So you don't get to be orthopods? OK, You still get to be doctors.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Y'all have that attitude. That "more doors = you going through" I've seen it from you and a good number of self-hating DOs. So I reiterate. Just merely having the MD does NOT mean you get to waltz into an uber-residency, not matter how much those PDs will not take DOs

Please stop calling me a self-hating DO and creating strawman arguments for things I have literally never said. You and I have gone around in circles over this and it is stupid because you are simply wrong. The MD opens more doors. Thats a simple fact that needs to be understood by every person that chooses this route. Get over it and stop saying myself, or anyone else who points that fact out, "has an attitude" because I can't even tell you how many pre-DOs I know that have no flying clue what they are getting themselves into and us pointing it out to them doesn't make us "self-hating." Not a single person says an MD will waltz into a competitive specialty. Not one. So stop bringing it up when its completely irrelevant.

There is also the fact that the MD degree allows very mediocre MD students the ability to WALTZ (your words) into fields that DOs need to be average to above average to get, and if the MD student is average they will match at programs at levels that won't even sniff DO apps. An MD with a 220+ Step score will have over a 90% match rate for fields like general surgery where DOs have to bust their butt to land a spot.

Y'all chose this profession. Unless you have pics of the guns put to your heads that made you do this? I'm aware of its deficits. But it's it's also far better to light candle than curse the darkness. So quit taking a dump on YOUR profession and revel in the fact that you will be doctors some day. So you don't get to be orthopods? OK, You still get to be doctors.

No one is taking a dump on the profession, and yes I did choose this route knowing full well what it meant. That doesn't mean I have to go around and give every starry eyed pre-DO a sales pitch about how they can be anything in Zootopia that they want to be.

I've always found it funny how you like to argue with me and call me a self-hating DO when I am more level headed and pro-DO than most posters. If being a realist makes me self-hating then so be it.

 

[FlyerScribe]

Hey guys and gals, this is my first post on SDN but I've been lurking the forum for nearly 10 years now.

Over that time period I've fallen off the path to medicine, worked in finance (mainly mortgage banking) and headed straight back to medicine after I realized that I don't care much for money. I put in the work, earned a very respectable score on my MCAT and and an acceptance letter from LECOM.

After some personal reflection I realize that Orthopedic Surgery would be a good fit for me considering the level of interaction I would have with patients, the teamwork involved, and the fast/encouraging recoveries you get to witness. I also feel that if, for any reason, I could not achieve this goal that there are many other promising and fulfilling careers in the field of surgery. Shoot for the moon, and you'll always land among the stars.

With that being said, I feel as though I'm at a disadvantage in a lot of different ways. It has been years since I shadowed anyone or volunteered, and I don't have any research papers I can reference in an interview or my CV. Step 1 and Classroom performance is vital to earn a top residency, of course, but I don't really have any way to improve the 'human' component of my portfolio.

I'm attending LECOM @ Seton Hill and there's no student organization for Orthopedic Surgery, no official Honors Program, and the Program Director for LECOM's Ortho Residency is In Lake Erie.

At this point I'm not sure what I can do to really start to stand out, show my commitment to the field, and be part of a community that will help develop myself as a doctor. Can any of your provide some sage advice?

Any tips are appreciated - as of right now my plan is to get into contact with LECOM's Ortho Director and ask for advice, as well as to push for a summer research opportunity at some colleges that I have connections with.

Cheers to everyone and congrats to all the first years

Get as much research experience as you can in med school. From what i have heard, Wright State Ortho residency wont even consider your application if you dont have research experience

Sent from my SM-G930P using SDN mobile

 

[W19]

Get as much research experience as you can in med school. From what i have heard, Wright State Ortho residency wont even consider your application if you dont have research experience

Sent from my SM-G930P using SDN mobile

Wright State! What!

 

[DrMcLovin]

I don't understand why people look at the numbers and say "1.8% of DO's matched ortho, therefore if you are a DO you have a 1.8% chance of matching ortho" that is a horrible stats interpretation. We have no idea how many people applied ortho, self-selected out b/c of a weak app, or never had aspirations of ortho in the first place. My class has 3 students who genuinely want to do orthopedics, so if all 3 match ortho, that's a 100% success rate, but a lot of the knuckleheads on this thread would look at that and say "3 students is 2% of the class, so that means that as an incoming student you only have a 2% chance of matching ortho". I see the desire to look at the numbers, and I certainly think its important to go into this with eyes wide open, but the advice and stats interpretation here is just downright misleading.

Make no mistake, matching ortho is exceedingly difficult, but if the armchair analysis of some unknown people on sdn is enough to dissuade you, then you have much bigger problems. I may not match ortho, but I'm absolutely going to try. It is certainly hard, but if I set myself up right, it is patently false to say that I only have a 1.8% chance b/c only 1.8% of DO's matched ortho. That's just dumb.

No **** dude. I was pointing out that total number of ortho spots compared to MD and DO graduates weren't insanely different to the point where being a DO in ortho equates to winning the lottery. In fact, before the merger we probably had it better since research isnt as emphasized and we didnt compete with qualified foreign grads in the match.

I appreciate the advice on matching ortho as a DO but I already won the “lottery” this year.

 

[Peach Newport]

There is no DO bias**, there is only low step 1 scores. There is no “DO friendly,” there’s just “low step scores and comlex only” friendly.

Have you seen how poorly DOs do, statistically, on step 1? I mean, neither have I - that info isn’t exactly published. However, According to a med ed guy I know, something like 200 DOs break the 240 mark each year. This corresponds pretty well with what upperclassmen and my own experience tell me.

Of those ~200, maybe half have the research to match their MD competitors. Of THOSE, maybe 1/3 have the LORs to match. Incidently, that’s pretty close to the number of “wow!” DO Matches we see each year.

And yet, despite that, each DO campus sends 2-5 students to ortho every year (virtually all AOA or former AOA). Ortho is doable for a high-performing DO. That number has not been decreasing much despite many of those programs going ACGME.

Now, if you wanted plastics, ENT, derm... you gotta go MD. It’s simply too hard to get the proper connections and field-specific research at a DO school. But to say former AOA ortho isn’t realistic is, IMO, a stretch.

**this is a figure of speech. DO bias totally exists in a small number of places, but it’s effect on DOs matching is extremely insignificant compared to the effects of simply being unable to get the step scores.

 

[Duotone]

Hey guys and gals, this is my first post on SDN but I've been lurking the forum for nearly 10 years now.

Over that time period I've fallen off the path to medicine, worked in finance (mainly mortgage banking) and headed straight back to medicine after I realized that I don't care much for money. I put in the work, earned a very respectable score on my MCAT and and an acceptance letter from LECOM.

After some personal reflection I realize that Orthopedic Surgery would be a good fit for me considering the level of interaction I would have with patients, the teamwork involved, and the fast/encouraging recoveries you get to witness. I also feel that if, for any reason, I could not achieve this goal that there are many other promising and fulfilling careers in the field of surgery. Shoot for the moon, and you'll always land among the stars.

With that being said, I feel as though I'm at a disadvantage in a lot of different ways. It has been years since I shadowed anyone or volunteered, and I don't have any research papers I can reference in an interview or my CV. Step 1 and Classroom performance is vital to earn a top residency, of course, but I don't really have any way to improve the 'human' component of my portfolio.

I'm attending LECOM @ Seton Hill and there's no student organization for Orthopedic Surgery, no official Honors Program, and the Program Director for LECOM's Ortho Residency is In Lake Erie.

At this point I'm not sure what I can do to really start to stand out, show my commitment to the field, and be part of a community that will help develop myself as a doctor. Can any of your provide some sage advice?

Any tips are appreciated - as of right now my plan is to get into contact with LECOM's Ortho Director and ask for advice, as well as to push for a summer research opportunity at some colleges that I have connections with.

Cheers to everyone and congrats to all the first years

10 years is long enough time to realize that there are far too many wet blankets lurking around on SDN and eager to quench your aspirations. Be wary of what you read. If/when you match into ortho, you will have realized that those who are best informed to tell you what goes on behind the walls of ortho programs are too busy to log into SDN. So be mindful of what advice you distill out of SDN. That being said, be proud of what you are aiming for, be you DO or MD. None comes easy. Beyond med school, those two letters fade away into oblivion.

Peach Newport has some wise nuggets. Nail the steps and comlex. Take both. They are two different tests. Unfortunately some programs rely heavily on stats and pay for it when they realize they just saddled their program with that 270er or 800er who just can't fit in. Apply to every ortho program in the country (if you can afford to - the more the merrier). Get into the one that accepts you. Only a fine candidate makes a fine surgeon. Strive to be as complete a candidate as you can: that implies a healthy combo of stats, audition rotation, rec letters, personal statement, volunteer experience, research, shadowing. None outweighs the other in importance. Stats are not everything - not even in ortho. But if stats mean so much to you, then ponder this: DOs outperformed MDs nationwide class for class in OITE scores in 2016 and 2017.

 

[libertyyne]

10 years is long enough time to realize that there are far too many wet blankets lurking around on SDN and eager to quench your aspirations. Be wary of what you read. If/when you match into ortho, you will have realized that those who are best informed to tell you what goes on behind the walls of ortho programs are too busy to log into SDN. So be mindful of what advice you distill out of SDN. That being said, be proud of what you are aiming for, be you DO or MD. None comes easy. Beyond med school, those two letters fade away into oblivion.

Peach Newport has some wise nuggets. Nail the steps and comlex. Take both. They are two different tests. Unfortunately some programs rely heavily on stats and pay for it when they realize they just saddled their program with that 270er or 800er who just can't fit in. Apply to every ortho program in the country (if you can afford to - the more the merrier). Get into the one that accepts you. Only a fine candidate makes a fine surgeon. Strive to be as complete a candidate as you can: that implies a healthy combo of stats, audition rotation, rec letters, personal statement, volunteer experience, research, shadowing. None outweighs the other in importance. Stats are not everything - not even in ortho. But if stats mean so much to you, then ponder this: DOs outperformed MDs nationwide class for class in OITE scores in 2016 and 2017.

I cant seem to find the statistics you are quoting , would you mind linking them?
Wouldnt this be incentive to hire more osteopathic residents compared to less, yet the numbers haven't really gone up on the ACGME side.

 

[Duotone]

I cant seem to find the statistics you are quoting , would you mind linking them?
Wouldnt this be incentive to hire more osteopathic residents compared to less, yet the numbers haven't really gone up on the ACGME side.

The stats are confidential but reported on the result sheet of everyone who sat for the OITE in those years. Having said that, a better OITE does not equate a better orthopod. OITE score is just one of many parameters to objectively evaluate progress made in the training of orthopedic residents. Every orthopod (MD or DO) who successfully completes a residency program has a job waiting for them out there. Like I mentioned earlier, the MD/DO thing does not come up when you are siting across the table negotiating an employment contract. Evidence of successful completion of residency and AOA board certification is what counts.