North Texas to offer MD Degree?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Biochemist13, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. Biochemist13

    Biochemist13 Chief Cell

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  2. Miss Walrus

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    Financial stability true, but there are other reasons that may take higher precedence such as:

    meeting the needs of the expanding metroplex (ie competing against a new school opening in Fort Worth)

    dealing with the rotation problems that have faced TCOM students, which continue to get worse

    etc...
     
  3. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    I call BS. This is to get more money for reasearch from the NIH.
     
  4. Miss Walrus

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    It's true about getting more money for research, but TCOM and it's faculty/staff/students have known this for years, it's nothing new.

    For this particular action Ransom has taken, I believe it involves more than just bringing in research dollars.
     
  5. drusso

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    I think it's a great idea. Michigan State has been very successful with having both a D.O. and M.D. programs on the same campus. Perhaps more of the D.O. schools should open branch M.D. campuses. It would give students more choices and hopefully cut down on the number of M.D. wanna-be's.
     
  6. czanetti

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    :)
     
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    #6 czanetti, Dec 12, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  7. DOinMS

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    A similar situation is going on in Virginia. Virginia Tech (VT) has a DO school (VCOM) in their research park on the main campus in Blacksburg. VCOM is graduating close to 200 students/year. Now Virginia Tech and Carilion Clinic are opening an allopathic school 30-40 miles away from the VT campus in Roanoke. They will take a whopping 40 students/year for a five year program. Their primary reason for doing so is to "help alleviate the physician shortage in SW VA." Well, I don't really expect 40 docs/year will make that much of a difference. I think that argument was used primarily to secure state funding for startup costs.

    There are a few possible reasons for this move by VT and Carilion: (1) DO schools are not competitive for the big research dollars from the NIH (RO-1s, K-awards, etc.), (2) Carilion Clinic wanted to jump on the money train called 21st century US medical education, and/or (3) power issues.

    My guess is that you may see this happen more.
     
  8. meister

    meister Senior Member
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    Are you threatened by a school having a DO and an MD campus? I think it's a good idea, maybe it'll eliminate the artificial barriers between the two.
     
  9. DOinMS

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    Absolutely not. In fact, I would like to see more integrated programs like MSU. I only question the motivation for these moves. If it is money through research dollars, which is highly likely (said from experience), then it's only a matter of time before the osteopathic programs take a back seat to the "money maker."
     
  10. STAC

    STAC Senior Member
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    Will we get to choose what degree we get now if its approved before graduation?
     
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  11. JaggerPlate

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    No.
     
  12. Dissected

    Dissected All bleeding stops eventually
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    :laugh:
     
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  13. STAC

    STAC Senior Member
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    Nice, pre-med.
     
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  14. Dissected

    Dissected All bleeding stops eventually
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    I thought you were joking...you really thought you could change your degree part way through a program...?
     
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  15. MichiganDO

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    This story speaks to the times. This is going to be the new trend.
    DO schools should start applying for AAMC approval to grant MD degrees, although Im not sure half would pass the standards.

    The AAMC just published data showing that around 66% of DO applicants are crossovers- meaning they applied to MD programs along with DO.
    Our students dont soley want to become DOs. They might choose to, but I think we all can agree the end goal is just doctor.

    MD schools are set to increase 30% by 2015. This equates to more than half the current DO first year class seats. MD schools are going to cut the current DO applicant pool in half, and the stronger half at that. Ill restate this more clearly. around 2500 students that would normally not be admitted into MD programs will be admitted. This will kill our projected 5000 seats that need to be filled by someone.

    If DO schools want to compete for quality medical students, we need to change the title. You can see TCOM (with the highest COMLEX pass rate nationally) has already realized this. Whos next?

    The dean of NOVA has already suggested changing our title to a more marketable one such as MDO. He understands the DO title is the number one reason students choose MD over a DO programs. It has nothing to do with osteopathic medicine, the school, cost, place, ect. It strictly is due to the fact that the DO title makes no sense for us any longer (this aside from the fact that we dont even practice osteopathic medicine to begin with)

    We are shooting ourselves in the foot by granting this degree. You can still learn OMM and osteoapathic priciples, and practice with a title such as MDO (or MD for that matter). This being said, few of us practice anything osteopathic anyway. We practice medicine with occassinal OMM maybe (this aside from the OMM faculty at COMs).

    MBBS graduates figured this out years ago. Their training differs completely from US MD/DO training, yet they understood that MD are the two letter found in medicine and doctor in the english language. huh, who would have thought. And so they practice using an MD in the US to prevent the confusion we for some reasons love - what is a DO?

    Our profession is out of hand and out of touch with reality. Our schools are marketed as medical schools producing medical doctors, nothing less.
    The only difference admissions office will say is the title. Our schools seek to enroll the same students as MD schools. Our schools are medical schools, and are in danger with the MD school increase.

    We should allow our students to practice with the letter M for medicine (THAT IS ON THEIR DEGREE) in the proffessional setting. We are the only ones that are holding ourselves back from doing so!

    Interesting that it seems if the AOA wil not adapt to the times, our schools will. Thank you TCOM!!!!! Its a start.

    I practice medicine, its rarely osteopathic, and never osteopathy as my title of D.O. implies. Im sure you do too. Lets make a change!

    happy holidays
     
  16. simpleman

    simpleman Member
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    WELL SAID!!!! VERY WELL SAID! :thumbup::thumbup:

    you change the title, you will see a tremendous increase in osteopathic medical schools applicants!!! guaranteed...

    how can we bring change if the AOA is not willing to help? Can we do anything with each state's osteopathic medical board?? i really want a degree that represents what we do!

    I am with you all the way about degree change.....let me know if i can be involved in anyway to help!

     
  17. Dissected

    Dissected All bleeding stops eventually
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    you know that means you'd have to change your SDN name, right :D
     
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  18. Boner

    Boner I just blue myself
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    The high quality schools will survive, which is what the LCME would want. A sort of modern day Flexner.

    It's happening behind the scenes. You can see the movement happening. TCOM wants to offer MD. Touro wanted to open an MD program in NJ. MSU has an MD and DO degree already. Vtech wants to open an MD program in association with Carillion. DMU had a site visit by LCME. Nova's dean wants degree designation change. Students want degree designation change (at DMU, MD,DO was favored, Nova dean wants MDO, etc...).

    The change of degree designation can come from the schools. After all, the school decides what degree to confer (DO; MD, DO; MDO, etc...). So some brave school can start adding the "M" to the designation and other will follow. The other scenario, more worrying to the AOA, is this complete amalgamation possibility.
     
  19. JaggerPlate

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    The strong schools will survive no matter what. You're never going to see PCOM and CCOM close their doors. However, if a school such as NOVA or DMU decided one day to offer an MDO or MD, DO (which, lets face it ... no matter how stupid you think the degree change thing is, is really more representitive of what osteopathic physicians do) wouldn't they lose their COCA accrediation or something?? I mean, if not ... why wouldn't have one of these new campuses done something like this to attract more students and money?? All I'm saying is if one school offered something like MD, DO ... the numbers applying would go through the roof. In your opinion, Mr Boner, will this really happen any time soon?? Or will the AOA have to pretty much disband before changes like this would happen??
     
  20. Boner

    Boner I just blue myself
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    Schools would still be graduating with a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine Degree. How a school chooses to designate that is a matter of the school. Chances of a change/amalgamation are in the hands of us. My friend's dad (MD) really summed it up...our generation will decide whether the practice of medicine needs separate but equal degrees. Most MDs and DOs I've come in contact with in the world that is not academia say that there should be change or amalgamation. Personally, I think it will happen in our lifetime...later in our lifetime. Either through amalgamation by schools or by the message sent by the continuing decline of membership in the AOA and continuing increase in DOs entering ACGME residencies.
     
  21. newbie04

    newbie04 Senior Member
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    The real issue is with the AOA, as has been stated above. I remember reading in The DO (the February 2008 issue) about the degree designation change.

    The article focused on the legality of something such as a name change. The article mentioned that states currently recognize two medical degrees--MD and DO--and more than a century of statutes and regulations would have to be changed with a name change. Here is a quote: "If our schools start issuing a new degree, both state and federal legislation would have to be amended. That process could take years just in the states. Even if all state legislatures placed degree-change legislation on their agendas, the bills would face a tough road to reaching a vote, as most bills do. Of course, there is no guarantee that the bills would pass or that governors would sign them."

    https://www.doonline.org/pdf/pub_do0208dodegree.pdf

    There has been a lot of good discussion in this thread. The "good ole boys" in the AOA have had their own agenda for too long, while ignoring medical students and residents alike. They are their own worst enemy and this is just the beginning of many things to come.
     
  22. DOinMS

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    This is absolute BS from the AOA, and it is sad that these kind of lies go unchecked. In my state, and most others, legislation gives the power of physician licensure to the Board of Medical Licensure, which in turn issues rules and regulation governing licensure. Nothing in the legislation itself mentions anything about a degree. My state's rules and regulations state:

    "If the degree is from a medical college or a college of osteopathic medicine in the United States or Puerto Rico, the medical college must be accredited at the time of graduation... by the Professional Education Committee of the American Osteopathic Association (AOA)."

    In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of degree you get as long as the school is accredited. If a change was required, it was be a rules and regulations change at the board level, NOT a legislative change.

    The most logical choice is to make the degree an "MD, DO" or "DO, MD." Either of these degree designations would bypass any state licensure issues that may be tied to a degree AND it would allow for greater international practice rights. Did you know that over 100 years after the first DO school opened, only 44/195 countries grant full practice rights to DOs? If medicine as a whole was that slow to progress, we would still be thinking that all diseases are caused by miasma!!

    I'm sure the AOA would threaten to jerk accreditation from any school that would try to change the degree. That's where the LCME could step in and take over. The problem is, how many DO schools in operation now would be able to meet LCME accreditation standards?

    Instead of relying on the AOA for information (which is steered by their own agenda), we need to investigate state requirements for ourselves.
     
  23. Old_Mil

    Old_Mil Senior Member
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    Frankly, I'm surprised that the number is only 66%.

    Absolutely.

    :thumbup:

    I'm glad that the silent majority has finally started to rise up.
     
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  24. JaggerPlate

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    Well spoken. Don't give up on this ... it's attitudes like this that will make the change.
     
  25. Boner

    Boner I just blue myself
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    The argument the AOA gives about the legal pains in changing the degree designation is total crap. Dentists did it with DDS + DMD, lawyers did it with LLB to JD, podiatrists did it with PodD/DSC to DPM, etc...
     
  26. zmeister22

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    I have a feeling big opposition is going to come from the faculty and students with psychiatric issues that practically stroke themselves to A.T. Still. They are so entrenched in loving him it is ridiculous. DMU OMM faculty refuse to start a lecture without reflecting on an A.T. Still quote. People sell A.T. Still quote books at club day registration. They even use quotes like "Keep it pure, boys. Keep it pure." to exalt him, completely ignoring the fact that this quote in particular was a jab at anyone who practiced anything except PURE osteopathy... like medicine in general. They are too concentrated in keeping us separate. This small, mentality-challenged group is unfortunately all too vocal.
     
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  27. JaggerPlate

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    For sure ... However, hopefully in our careers WE will be the ones who run the show and things will get cleaned up, doubtful ... but hopefully. Also, I seriously don't see how anyone could have a problem with MD, DO or DO, MD. I mean it seriously sums the entire thing up. I've never cared about the change one bit ... but it's weird to me that podiatrists have medicine in their abbrev, but osteopathic physicians don't.
     
  28. Captain Fantastic

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    The problem with "MD, DO" is that it implies dual degrees, like MD, PhD or MD, MPH. That's where the hang-up will come. I doubt you'll find any state board willing to let a school jump from offering the "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" degree to offering a dual degree in "Doctor of Medicine and Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine." And if they can offer dual degrees, why offer the DO degree, too?

    I also don't think going from DO to MDO is a real winner. The perceived discrimination comes from not having the MD title. Unfortunately, MDO still isn't MD.

    For the most part I'm not sure why anyone cares. It seems like there are more important fights to fight. DO's can do everything MD's can, they make as much money, and there are more than enough patients to go around. No one I know thinks of DO's as "second class" physicians. A number of DO's serve on faculty at the allopathic medical school. I guess I don't get it.
     
    #28 Captain Fantastic, Dec 23, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  29. DrWBD

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    Just to add my $0.02:

    "MDO" just looks silly and will just cause more confusion as we will now have to explain to people what the heck an MDO is, setting us back 50 years.
    "MD, DO" is almost as silly, as it implies two degrees were obtained.

    Just make "MD" the legal equivalent for a US MD, FMG, and DO. If you want to proclaim your osteopathic-ness to the world, you can still put "DO" on your coat, door, shingle, etc. Legally, though, as a practitioner of medicine, we should all be MDs.
     
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  30. zmeister22

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    Well open your eyes. It happens a lot, actually. I really don't care about that. I am going to be a physician and be the best physician I can be. Claiming that a second class attitude (while primarily from naive pre-meds, and doctors with a superiority complex) doesn't exist and doesn't influence career possibilities at least in certain locations is idiotic.

    And with you not getting the big deal? Why don't you take the time and read the entire post before jumping in. There were highly legitimate concerns voiced above.
     
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  31. Captain Fantastic

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    :shrug:
     
    #31 Captain Fantastic, Dec 23, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  32. DOinMS

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    It would actually depend what is written on the degree. If the degree was a "Doctor of Medicine and Osteopathy," then MD, DO would certainly be appropriate, and similar to the MBBS (I know this is a bachelor's degree, but the equivalent of our doctorates). If it did matter, then issue a graduate diploma for OMT training. As far as licensure is concerned, the main criteria for most Boards of Medicine is that the school be accredited by COCA or LCME. This is where the fight would ensue as COCA is comprised of mainly of narrow-minded, old-school purists who resent MDs.

    I would agree that the DO is equivalent in most cases, but certainly not all cases. There is still DO discrimination even to the point where some hospitals designate DOs as MDs. The global impact of our degree is troubling as well. DOs can practice the full scope of medicine in 44/195 countries, and in many countries abroad osteopaths are trained only in manipulative techniques - a sort of parachiropractor. Frankly, after four years of training I'm not willing to settle for equivalence in most situations.

    I do not think there is a more important agenda right now than to ensure that graduates of schools and colleges of osteopathic medicine receive global respect and recognition for their training.
     
  33. JaggerPlate

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    Bingo.
     
  34. cliquesh

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    I thought North Texas was trying to open up a MD program in addition to their DO program. So a student would either be enrolled in the MD program or the DO program, but not both. Kind of like UNJ or MSU.
     
  35. JaggerPlate

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    Yeah I'm 99% sure that is what's happening. It will be just like MSU or UNJ with two separate programs, I don't think there is any takeover ... the discussion just kinda skipped to the letter changing issue.
     
  36. drusso

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    This would be a great move for UNTHSC.
     
  37. metalmd06

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    Those two little letters spark a neat little discussion huh? It's funny how we always seem to come back to this topic. I have to say, having grinded through about a half a year of osteopathic medical school, I know I will be proud of my D.O. degree when I graduate. If it changes, so be it. If if doesn't, it's not going to affect my abilities to practice medicine. However, I'd like to throw another caveat into this discussion. I think that with the recent fragmenting of the medical field (DO's, MD's, Nurse Doctors - what is their title? Doctor of Nursing? - ND's, PharmD's, NP's, PA's) one of the most compelling reasons to unite the two camps is to stabilize the PHYSICIAN as the expert in medical care. Not that other members of the healthcare team are not valuable. Although some are debatable, most are invaluable. Regardless, the physician is the advocate; the person with the most knowledge and experience that will provide the patient with the best option with his or her best health in mind.

    Another thing that's funny -- Ever see a pathologist D.O. perform osteopathic manipulative medicine? Knowing A.T. Still lore I can understand the disdain he had for the medical treatments of his time. I don't think the AOA realizes that times have changed. Those devoted to OMM with the belief that it will cure almost anything are spitting in the face of science. I've experienced OMM's benefits and I will not doubt its utility, however, it should be a SPECIALTY, not a separate medical sect. Also, I think OMM is like everything else in that it works better for some than others. Furthermore, I also beleive there is a psychological component to OMM - If the patient believes in it it's more likely to work.

    One last thing; Nearly everything (thus far) I have been taught in OMM my girlfriend was taught in Physical Therapy school.
     
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  38. 91Bravo

    91Bravo Frank Netter's Love Child
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    Here's a thought.....just be proud to be a D.O.

    The initials behind your name should not matter.

    Instead of advocating for a change in the degree name, focus your energy on advancing public recognition and respect of the osteopathic profession.
     
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  39. drusso

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    Of course it is...where do you think they got their inspiration? All manual medicine is grounded in the same basic physiological mechanisms.

    BTW, I don't think that UNTHSC is talking about eliminating the DO program, I think that they just want to add an MD program. Aren't they also adding a PT school too??
     
  40. JaggerPlate

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    I completely understand your point.
     
  41. Boner

    Boner I just blue myself
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    The AOA has been trying, and failing miserably, to do this for the past 100 years or so, which is why most people within the profession are fed up with the AOA (e.g. stagnant membership, students flocking to ACGME programs, etc...). Most lay-persons know what a DC, PA, NP, OD, DDS/DMD, etc... is and what they do. These professions have around about as long, or significantly less so, than DOs. These professions have managed to market themselves apporpriately, while DOs, at the will of the AOA, have not.
     
  42. zmeister22

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    n

    I think that the AOA could actually do some good if they were to jump into the driving seat of medicine (or perhaps even the passenger side). Right now those poor people are not even in the car. They are standing at the intersection trying to clean your windshield for a buck:laugh:.

    Get a grip, AOA. Start being proactive and embrace the present/future of medicine and move on.
     
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  43. DOinMS

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    I'm glad to see that others recognize how little we have progressed in the way of recognition since 1892. It is embarrassing to compare ourselves to nursing as that profession has cultivated the term "nurse practitioner" into a household name. You can be assured, however, that instead of changing the name to something that makes more sense the AOA will continue to try and shove "D.O." down people's throats.

    If you don't think the type of degree matters, then try to get into certain ACGME residencies, or better yet, try to obtain licensure to practice the full scope of medicine in 151/195 countries.

    I would dare say that if the AOA was a fast-food restaurant, the customer service (me being the customer) would be so lousy that I would never eat there again. The AOA should have a vote from the general membership on this issue, NOT the House of Delegates. Let each member have his/her voice heard.
     
  44. simpleman

    simpleman Member
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    How can we voice our concerns to the AOA? we need to get this topic back on the JAOA!! and show the AOA that we need a change!
     
  45. ceftazidime

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    The AOA already knows about the concern and clearly has no desire to make a change, and has simply stated that a change would be a difficult and lengthy process that would involve changing regulations on a state-by-state basis.

    But has anybody considered voicing their concerns to AACOM? After all, the COMs are the ones that actually issue the degree...
     
  46. Taurus

    Taurus Paul Revere of Medicine
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    Right on. :thumbup: The professions should be unified. We are physicians. Period. MD title should be used because it's much more recognizable to the public.
     
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  47. metalmd06

    7+ Year Member

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    Here's another thing that just plain bothers me. Osteopathic medicine states its dedication to primary care medicine and while a formidable percentage (60% or so) of osteopathic students do enter this sector of medicine, I for one can say it is not one of my top interests in medicine.

    I believe in preventative medicine and its utility in derailing the onset of many chronic illnesses. To me, however, going into primary care would be like hitting on 20 in blackjack. Medicine is a calling, but medical school is an investment in my future life. Emotionally and motivationally I want to be a healer. Practically I want to live a comfortable and financially secure life. I, as well as many of you I'm sure, am on pace to be well over 200K dollars in debt. If I'm going to take that kind of risk, I don't want to be wallowing in the red for the remainder of my life. Unfortunately, with they way things are going at the present time, primary care physicians and family practitioners have to deal with that consequence.

    The reality of the situation is that if primary care ends up truly being the career destination for me, then I will pursue it and excel at it. However, having seen seemingly busy and successful practices fold because the reimbursement is poor, who knows how it will turn out. This kind of uncertainty, and higher salaries, are what draws physicians to the specialties of medicine. This is also what is allowing NP's and PA's to swoop in since they command a lower, but still substantitive salary.

    My point is this. We are the new leaders of medicine, especially osteopathic medicine. As the venerable older physicians with their strong, albiet dated values retire, it is up to US to take a stand and make changes that will be adventageous to patient care and to our careers.

    Sorry to get a bit off topic but considering the physician shortage and an article I read about DNP's (Doctors of Nursing practice) I had to voice my opinion
     
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  48. DaveinDallas

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    Sorry, I know this is off topic but I couldn't help but comment on your .sig...

    NP's want to be called 'Doctor' and be autonomous? Is someone a few fries short of a Happy Meal?

    I know one incident should not a profession make but I have been in a situation where an NP didn't know what to do for a symptomatic, VERY typical acute MI presentation WITH an EKG demonstrating plain as day LBBB. Said she 'wasn't good' at EKGs and 'had trouble' with them. Couldn't reach
    the indigent clinic oversight physician and ruminated over the decision. Finally cut the patient loose with the standard 'go to the ER if you have' speech......
     
  49. Taurus

    Taurus Paul Revere of Medicine
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    If NP's want to play doctor and earn the respect, income, and prestige that comes with it, then they have to accept the liability. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Malpractice suits against advanced practice nurses are rising in number and increasing in severity, according to malpractice insurers.​


    Fortunately, the lawyers are not giving NP's a free pass. This is especially true in states that have malpractice caps because the lawyers have to go after everyone to collect something.
     
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  50. The Virginian

    The Virginian Junior Member
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    VT is not affiliated with VCOM. VCOM is a private school and leases their space in VT's tech park. VCOM goes to great lengths to appear as though it is an integral part of VT though. It uses their colors, their computer server, buys sports passes for their students along with use of facilities, pays for VT professors teaching at the med school, and several other things.

    VT has been attempting for a number of years to break into the top 30 research institution rating. They have had rough going, primarily thanks to the miserly acts of our cracker general assembly. For several years, they have partnered with WFU who has a medical school but no engineering program, on medical research matters.

    The Carilion Clinic has been evolving for several years and envisioned a clinic modeled similar to the Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic. Carilion is using VT land in Roanoke and the state approved about $60 million for construction of a medical school building. All degrees will be through VT.
     

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