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Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

wades

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    I don't think there is any "disadvantage" to not doing so (that I know of)...hmm not quite sure what difference it would make. Side note, and this may be completely irrelevant to you but, most schools do require that a photo be submitted along with the secondary application so it's likely they will have a pretty good idea even if it is not stated in the AMCAS app. Good luck!
     
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    ChemEngMD

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      Is there any disadvantage to not listing an ethnicity on the AMCAS application? I'm not talking about lying about ethnicity, I'm talking about just not selecting one at all. Any advice/experience appreciated!

      They'll likely presume you're ORM or White. This has been discussed many times on the forums. Use the search function.

      The consensus is that it doesn't make any positive or negative difference. You don't get penalized for being White or Asian, you simply do not get looked at by whatever diversity/multicultural specific admissions people who are looking for diversity candidates for their class.
       
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      baconshrimps

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        wades and ChemEngMD are right on the ball with this. The only remote disadvantage I can think of, would be if after you've interviewed and have been accepted, if the accepted applications are reviewed again for consideration for 'diversity scholarship' which some schools offer, you may miss out. I think ChemEngMD is probably right in that there will be an assumption that by not listing your ethnicity, some may assume that you are an ORM (Over Represented in Medicine)
         

        ichor

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          They'll likely presume you're ORM or White. This has been discussed many times on the forums. Use the search function.

          The consensus is that it doesn't make any positive or negative difference. You don't get penalized for being White or Asian, you simply do not get looked at by whatever diversity/multicultural specific admissions people who are looking for diversity candidates for their class.

          How does that make sense?

          First of all, ORM is a bs term, just come out with it and say Asian. Now to my actual point: if you don't get penalized for being white or Asian, then why are acceptance rates for Asians noticeably lower than for whites at the same grades/scores? I'm inclined to say that if you're black or Hispanic (or Native American) then you will be aided by that, that if you're white then it will be neutral, but if you're Asian, you will be penalized.

          GPA/MCAT.....White.....Asian
          3.50/30.............48%.......42%
          3.69/30..............67%.......63%
          3.89/30.............79%........76%
          3.50/35.............73%........65%
          3.69/35.............84%........81%
          3.89/35.............91%........90%

          In fact, I took an extra step and superimposed the images. Inverted color (with invert key too) is Asian odds. All colored lines that don't show up in the key are from the white odds graph.

          di6GmoM.png

          As you can see, there are several things to note:
          • At a 3.30 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
          • At a 3.50 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
          • At a 3.69 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
          • At a 3.89 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores until after 38, after which it gives a minuscule advantage
          Seeing all these occurrences when being Asian is a hindrance and considering the average GPA/MCAT to get into med school are around 3.6/30, and that most people are around there, being Asian is definitely penalized.

          I'm curious, what race are you?
           
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          baconshrimps

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            How does that make sense?

            First of all, ORM is a bs term, just come out with it and say Asian. Now to my actual point: if you don't get penalized for being white or Asian, then why are acceptance rates for Asians noticeably lower than for whites at the same grades/scores? I'm inclined to say that if you're black or Hispanic (or Native American) then you will be aided by that, that if you're white then it will be neutral, but if you're Asian, you will be penalized.

            GPA/MCAT.....White.....Asian
            3.50/30.............48%.......42%
            3.69/30..............67%.......63%
            3.89/30.............79%........76%
            3.50/35.............73%........65%
            3.69/35.............84%........81%
            3.89/35.............91%........90%

            In fact, I took an extra step and superimposed the images. Inverted color (with invert key too) is Asian odds. All colored lines that don't show up in the key are from the white odds graph.

            di6GmoM.png

            As you can see, there are several things to note:
            • At a 3.30 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
            • At a 3.50 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
            • At a 3.69 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
            • At a 3.89 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores until after 38, after which it gives a minuscule advantage
            Seeing all these occurrences when being Asian is a hindrance and considering the average GPA/MCAT to get into med school are around 3.6/30, and that most people are around there, being Asian is definitely penalized.

            I'm curious, what race are you?

            1. You are beating a dead horse.
            2. No one has to disclose their race here if they don't want to, and frankly that is rude of you to ask.
            3. Consider how many Asians are applying to medical school. Probably more Asian applicants than white applicants. The greater the applicant sub-population, the lower the percentage accepted will be. Simple.
            4. You are beating a dead horse.
             
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            darklabel

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              1. You are beating a dead horse.
              2. No one has to disclose their race here if they don't want to, and frankly that is rude of you to ask.
              3. Consider how many Asians are applying to medical school. Probably more Asian applicants than white applicants. The greater the applicant sub-population, the lower the percentage accepted will be. Simple.
              4. You are beating a dead horse.


              I'll help you out baconshrimps

              :beat:

              And if you're Asian or White and list "No Ethnicity", they will simply "see" what race you are come interview day.

              I think its in your best interest to put it, but to each their own. If you happen to be Asian but "look white" or "insert other race" then just put whatever you feel that you are and don't try to game something you shouldn't.
               
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              ichor

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                1. You are beating a dead horse.
                2. No one has to disclose their race here if they don't want to, and frankly that is rude of you to ask.
                3. Consider how many Asians are applying to medical school. Probably more Asian applicants than white applicants. The greater the applicant sub-population, the lower the percentage accepted will be. Simple.
                4. You are beating a dead horse.

                1. How am I beating a dead horse? The thread point is whether there's disadvantages to not mentioning ethnicity. Someone presents an argument that it doesn't matter because there is no penalty to being white or Asian. Then I present a counter-argument that it does matter because being Asian does present a penalty. If it's already been established that Asian = penalized, then I'd be beating a dead horse, but in the context of this thread, I'm the first one to say that.
                2. Yeah I acknowledge that it's sort of rude.
                3. [citation needed] The last I checked, the majority of applicants were white.
                4. See 1
                 
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                chenzt

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                  If you happen to be URM and didn't put down your race, and your name is john smith or some other race neutral names, then you might not get the break that other URMs get when it comes to GPA/MCAT to be considered for interview. Simple as that. Didn't need to have an exposé on how Asians are penalized.

                  If you are white or Asian, then no, there's not much of a disadvantage.
                   
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                  ChemEngMD

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                    How does that make sense?

                    First of all, ORM is a bs term, just come out with it and say Asian. Now to my actual point: if you don't get penalized for being white or Asian, then why are acceptance rates for Asians noticeably lower than for whites at the same grades/scores? I'm inclined to say that if you're black or Hispanic (or Native American) then you will be aided by that, that if you're white then it will be neutral, but if you're Asian, you will be penalized.

                    GPA/MCAT.....White.....Asian
                    3.50/30.............48%.......42%
                    3.69/30..............67%.......63%
                    3.89/30.............79%........76%
                    3.50/35.............73%........65%
                    3.69/35.............84%........81%
                    3.89/35.............91%........90%

                    In fact, I took an extra step and superimposed the images. Inverted color (with invert key too) is Asian odds. All colored lines that don't show up in the key are from the white odds graph.

                    di6GmoM.png

                    As you can see, there are several things to note:
                    • At a 3.30 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
                    • At a 3.50 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
                    • At a 3.69 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
                    • At a 3.89 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores until after 38, after which it gives a minuscule advantage
                    Seeing all these occurrences when being Asian is a hindrance and considering the average GPA/MCAT to get into med school are around 3.6/30, and that most people are around there, being Asian is definitely penalized.

                    I'm curious, what race are you?

                    1. How am I beating a dead horse? The thread point is whether there's disadvantages to not mentioning ethnicity. Someone presents an argument that it doesn't matter because there is no penalty to being white or Asian. Then I present a counter-argument that it does matter because being Asian does present a penalty. If it's already been established that Asian = penalized, then I'd be beating a dead horse, but in the context of this thread, I'm the first one to say that.
                    2. Yeah I acknowledge that it's sort of rude.
                    3. [citation needed] The last I checked, the majority of applicants were white.
                    4. See 1

                    No Adcom sits in a room and says "too many Asians, reject this kid". The reason it is tough for ORMs to get into medical school is a function of the quantity of ORMs that apply each year versus URMs.

                    How I usually describe this to a layman is not that URMs get an advantage as much as the quantity of us applying is so low that schools dip further into the pool (statistically speaking - GPA/MCAT) in order to find the other attributes they are looking for (ECs, life experience) but are still academically viable. There is no study anywhere that says that someone who has a 4.0 and a 38 is infinitely more prepared for medical school than someone with a 3.4 and 33. There are so many other factors beyond statistics that determine how successful you will be in medical school and beyond that it is impossible to quantify. That is why there is an ADCOM and not simply a computer that accepts the students with the highest stats.

                    And as for my race: you caught me - I'm one of those tri-racial Latinos. BTW, besides one of my interviews that was geared specifically towards URMs, I've been to 10 interviews and have met THREE other Latinos TOTAL. Know how many Asians I've met? I'd guess ~40% of the interviewees I've met. They didn't seem too penalized to me.
                     
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                    MangoPlant

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                      No Adcom sits in a room and says "too many Asians, reject this kid". The reason it is tough for ORMs to get into medical school is a function of the quantity of ORMs that apply each year versus URMs.

                      How I usually describe this to a layman is not that URMs get an advantage as much as the quantity of us applying is so low that schools dip further into the pool (statistically speaking - GPA/MCAT) in order to find the other attributes they are looking for (ECs, life experience) but are still academically viable. There is no study anywhere that says that someone who has a 4.0 and a 38 is infinitely more prepared for medical school than someone with a 3.4 and 33. There are so many other factors beyond statistics that determine how successful you will be in medical school and beyond that it is impossible to quantify. That is why there is an ADCOM and not simply a computer that accepts the students with the highest stats.

                      And as for my race: you caught me - I'm one of those tri-racial Latinos. BTW, besides one of my interviews that was geared specifically towards URMs, I've been to 10 interviews and have met THREE other Latinos TOTAL. Know how many Asians I've met? I'd guess ~40% of the interviewees I've met. They didn't seem too penalized to me.

                      Looking at the number of URMs that apply each year compared with the number of Asians that apply each year, you are right it is a function of the quantity of Asians that apply. However, Ichor compared data of White acceptance rates vs Asian acceptance rates and it is clear that Asians have slightly lower acceptance rates in each category than whites. Looking at the AMCAS charts, there are FEWER Asian applicants applying than white applicants and the asian applicants still have lower acceptance rates in each category, so it does seem as if there is some sort of disadvantage for Asians.


                      Another thing I was curious about: How do they make these 'assumptions' if one doesn't disclose their ethnicity? Is it just based on name? I have an ORM friend named "Darius" with a last name that is not noticeably ORM. I wonder what would happen if he were to not list race. They would probably find out during the interview but it would still help him get the interview.

                      I appreciate all of your responses though! Not trying to start an argument, just curious about how this works :).
                       
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                      shenellica

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                        Darius is a Persian name right? I don't see how that would help or hurt your friend?

                        Looking at the number of URMs that apply each year compared with the number of Asians that apply each year, you are right it is a function of the quantity of Asians that apply. However, Ichor compared data of White acceptance rates vs Asian acceptance rates and it is clear that Asians have slightly lower acceptance rates in each category than whites. Looking at the AMCAS charts, there are FEWER Asian applicants applying than white applicants and the asian applicants still have lower acceptance rates in each category, so it does seem as if there is some sort of disadvantage for Asians.


                        Another thing I was curious about: How do they make these 'assumptions' if one doesn't disclose their ethnicity? Is it just based on name? I have an ORM friend named "Darius" with a last name that is not noticeably ORM. I wonder what would happen if he were to not list race. They would probably find out during the interview but it would still help him get the interview.

                        I appreciate all of your responses though! Not trying to start an argument, just curious about how this works :).
                         
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                        ichor

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                          No Adcom sits in a room and says "too many Asians, reject this kid". The reason it is tough for ORMs to get into medical school is a function of the quantity of ORMs that apply each year versus URMs.

                          So you're basically confirming what I was saying? Perhaps I shouldn't say that Asians are 'penalized' but that they are 'put at a disadvantage.' No matter. The point of this thread to hide race to avoid disadvantages is still present. If you could somehow actually effectively hide that you were Asian during the whole app process, then it would definitely help.

                          How I usually describe this to a layman is not that URMs get an advantage as much as the quantity of us applying is so low that schools dip further into the pool (statistically speaking - GPA/MCAT) in order to find the other attributes they are looking for (ECs, life experience) but are still academically viable. There is no study anywhere that says that someone who has a 4.0 and a 38 is infinitely more prepared for medical school than someone with a 3.4 and 33. There are so many other factors beyond statistics that determine how successful you will be in medical school and beyond that it is impossible to quantify. That is why there is an ADCOM and not simply a computer that accepts the students with the highest stats.

                          Pointing out that there's other factors besides GPA/MCAT is irrelevant though. Unless you can somehow show me that Asians systematically have worse EC's than other races, then to say I'm forgetting about EC's means nothing. The only reason I'm bringing up GPA/MCAT is because it's easy to quantify and compare.

                          And as for my race: you caught me - I'm one of those tri-racial Latinos. BTW, besides one of my interviews that was geared specifically towards URMs, I've been to 10 interviews and have met THREE other Latinos TOTAL. Know how many Asians I've met? I'd guess ~40% of the interviewees I've met. They didn't seem too penalized to me.

                          You're basing whether Asians were penalized off of how many you saw at interviews? How about all of the ones who didn't get interviews? People who just barely made the cut off dropped for those who didn't but of a desirable race?

                          And as for adcoms saying, "too many Asians, reject this kid," well of course they're not gonna come out and just say that. But there's definitely a slight bias against Asians, conscious or unconscious, in the minds of many adcoms out there. Ivy league schools like Harvard set quotas for Asians for UG, and you don't think anything similar exists for med school?



                          I've definitely rustled quite a few jimmies in this thread. For those people, I ask: If you were Asian and you could somehow hide that, don't you think it would help your odds of med school? If yes--end of discussion, that's what I was saying for OP
                           
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                          baconshrimps

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                            It seems that for each demographic, a certain set of standards needs to be
                            So you're basically confirming what I was saying? Perhaps I shouldn't say that Asians are 'penalized' but that they are 'put at a disadvantage.' No matter. The point of this thread to hide race to avoid disadvantages is still present. If you could somehow actually effectively hide that you were Asian during the whole app process, then it would definitely help.



                            Pointing out that there's other factors besides GPA/MCAT is irrelevant though. Unless you can somehow show me that Asians systematically have worse EC's than other races, then to say I'm forgetting about EC's means nothing. The only reason I'm bringing up GPA/MCAT is because it's easy to quantify and compare.



                            You're basing whether Asians were penalized off of how many you saw at interviews? How about all of the ones who didn't get interviews? People who just barely made the cut off dropped for those who didn't but of a desirable race?

                            And as for adcoms saying, "too many Asians, reject this kid," well of course they're not gonna come out and just say that. But there's definitely a slight bias against Asians, conscious or unconscious, in the minds of many adcoms out there. Ivy league schools like Harvard set quotas for Asians for UG, and you don't think anything similar exists for med school?



                            I've definitely rustled quite a few jimmies in this thread. For those people, I ask: If you were Asian and you could somehow hide that, don't you think it would help your odds of med school? If yes--end of discussion, that's what I was saying for OP


                            :beat:
                             

                            ChemEngMD

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                              So you're basically confirming what I was saying? Perhaps I shouldn't say that Asians are 'penalized' but that they are 'put at a disadvantage.' No matter. The point of this thread to hide race to avoid disadvantages is still present. If you could somehow actually effectively hide that you were Asian during the whole app process, then it would definitely help.



                              Pointing out that there's other factors besides GPA/MCAT is irrelevant though. Unless you can somehow show me that Asians systematically have worse EC's than other races, then to say I'm forgetting about EC's means nothing. The only reason I'm bringing up GPA/MCAT is because it's easy to quantify and compare.



                              You're basing whether Asians were penalized off of how many you saw at interviews? How about all of the ones who didn't get interviews? People who just barely made the cut off dropped for those who didn't but of a desirable race?

                              And as for adcoms saying, "too many Asians, reject this kid," well of course they're not gonna come out and just say that. But there's definitely a slight bias against Asians, conscious or unconscious, in the minds of many adcoms out there. Ivy league schools like Harvard set quotas for Asians for UG, and you don't think anything similar exists for med school?



                              I've definitely rustled quite a few jimmies in this thread. For those people, I ask: If you were Asian and you could somehow hide that, don't you think it would help your odds of med school? If yes--end of discussion, that's what I was saying for OP


                              Here's the deal:

                              Medical schools are in the business of producing physicians that will serve the entire population of the United States. It was determined a while ago that in order to help with health care access disparities in underserved communities (Black, Latino, Native American, Rural, Urban) they needed more physicians from these communities. Thus schools look for diversity in their class in order to serve a diverse population and also as a means of educating their other students about diversity. If your first time dealing with sensitive subject matters that are specific to the Black community is in the clinic with a patient, then the school has failed you. Those things should be discussed with colleagues from those communities who can help shed light on those issues beforehand so you can be comfortable and accustomed to cultural issues.

                              Medical school is NOT a reward for having the best GPA, MCAT, and ECs. FAR too many people see it this way. Medical school is for the purpose of producing physicians who will address the health of this nation. If schools choose an applicant because he's/she's from Appalachia or the Ozarks or Harlem or Compton and wants to go back to his/her community and practice and do clinical trials then that is their choice. If this applicant isn't as good on paper as an Asian applicant, they aren't being chosen because the other applicant is Asian, but rather because they are more likely to fill a void in the current healthcare system.

                              TLDR: Nobody is going to reject you because of your race, but if there are 100 people from the same neighborhood/town/city/community, wanting to serve the same population, a school isn't going to fill their class entirely with those people (even if they have the best GPA, MCAT, and ECs) because they would be neglecting a large portion of our population, and the purpose of training physicians is so they can serve the ENTIRE population.

                              And I know they're :beat: but somewhere inside I'd like to try and make them understand this.
                               
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                              kyamh

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                                You're basing whether Asians were penalized off of how many you saw at interviews? How about all of the ones who didn't get interviews? People who just barely made the cut off dropped for those who didn't but of a desirable race?

                                Chill, you want to know why fewer %-wise Asians get in? I would argue it is because those students are more likely - even with good MCATs and GPAs - to have poor applications in other regards.

                                Speaking as a person with a huge Asian/Eastern European heritage (immigrant), it's doctor/lawyer/CEO/engineer or bust as far as my extended family is concerned - this is why I took a while to decide to go to medical school, I needed the gap years away from my family to clear my head. Even once you get an interview, Asian women in particular may be especially reserved because of cultural indoctrination and may not come off as confident and capable. Sure, there are plenty of counter-stories to mine. That said, I live in a community of Eastern European immigrants and basically every family is trying to groom their kids to become surgeons.

                                I am really annoyed at how we tip-toe on SDN. Many students spout BS about having a passion for medicine but are only going this route to please others/ can't remember a time when their life path was not laid out - this is a fact. Various Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices and have not embraced the US mentality that young adults need to find a career that they are passionate about.

                                The Asian/White rates you quoted are basically the same for the high GPAs and low GPAs, it's just 3.5 that has a big difference. So great candidates and low stat (but likely great EC) candidates are treated basically the same. I would argue that the big drop in acceptance at the 3.5 mark is targeting that special group of family-pressured applicants whose ECs are not stellar because their heart isn't in the game and their GPAs are just high enough that they don't have any excuse to convince mom/dad that the MD route isn't gonna happen.

                                Edit: I'm sure everyone reading this on SDN is going into medicine because it their their one true calling ;) I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, I just want to share the overwhelming evidence I saw in my home community and at my college.
                                 
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                                histidine

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                                  To add to ChemEngMD, even in UG college app, you are at a disadvantage if too many people from your high school applied to the same school. More than a handful of people from my class applied to my top choice schools four states away, and it's probably part of the reason I didn't get in. You live with it and move on. There are all kinds of biases in the world, don't b**** about the ones you can't control but instead figure out how to stand out with what you got.

                                  Personally, I think it's good that this discussion comes up every so often. Yes, there are some very good reasons why URMs are recruited heavily for medical school. But by giving one race an advantage you are, by necessity, giving another a disadvantage. It is important to question whether this is right and whether this is for the good of society. Keep in mind that medical schools and undergraduates haven't had the cleanest record. Look back to the Jewish quota for medical school, where excuses ranging from "lack of manual dexterity" to "Jewish avarice" to full blown antisemitism were used to justify the quotas. I don't think anything of that nature is currently happening for medical schools, but the evidence for an Asian quota for undergraduate admissions is quite strong, and quite disturbing.
                                   
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                                  baboxxyun

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                                    Here's the deal:

                                    Medical schools are in the business of producing physicians that will serve the entire population of the United States. It was determined a while ago that in order to help with health care access disparities in underserved communities (Black, Latino, Native American, Rural, Urban) they needed more physicians from these communities. Thus schools look for diversity in their class in order to serve a diverse population and also as a means of educating their other students about diversity. If your first time dealing with sensitive subject matters that are specific to the Black community is in the clinic with a patient, then the school has failed you. Those things should be discussed with colleagues from those communities who can help shed light on those issues beforehand so you can be comfortable and accustomed to cultural issues.

                                    Medical school is NOT a reward for having the best GPA, MCAT, and ECs. FAR too many people see it this way. Medical school is for the purpose of producing physicians who will address the health of this nation. If schools choose an applicant because he's/she's from Appalachia or the Ozarks or Harlem or Compton and wants to go back to his/her community and practice and do clinical trials then that is their choice. If this applicant isn't as good on paper as an Asian applicant, they aren't being chosen because the other applicant is Asian, but rather because they are more likely to fill a void in the current healthcare system.

                                    TLDR: Nobody is going to reject you because of your race, but if there are 100 people from the same neighborhood/town/city/community, wanting to serve the same population, a school isn't going to fill their class entirely with those people (even if they have the best GPA, MCAT, and ECs) because they would be neglecting a large portion of our population, and the purpose of training physicians is so they can serve the ENTIRE population.

                                    And I know they're :beat: but somewhere inside I'd like to try and make them understand this.


                                    While I agree on the notion of providing healthcare to underserved areas, you've worded your post in a very..... "rainbows and butterfly" manner.
                                    To say race isn't a factor is not true. Otherwise we wouldn't have affirmative action in the united states.
                                    The selection of people from certain communities ensures "equal" opportunity, and the scale will always tilt in favor of URM.
                                    I don't mean to discredit hard work or integrity, but this HAS to happen otherwise URM applicants (who statistically have lower scores/EC/credentials) would be washed out from the sheer number of other applicants with a limited number of seats. Now essentially, this limits the number of seats even further to all other applicants who aren't URM.

                                    No, you wont get rejected from medical school because of race. But you can definitely get in because of it.
                                    To say a URM and non-URM are on the same playing field, when they have the exact same scores/EC/credentials simply is not true.
                                     
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                                    Womb Raider

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                                      Medical schools are in the business of producing physicians that will serve the entire population of the United States. It was determined a while ago that in order to help with health care access disparities in underserved communities (Black, Latino, Native American, Rural, Urban) they needed more physicians from these communities. Thus schools look for diversity in their class in order to serve a diverse population and also as a means of educating their other students about diversity. If your first time dealing with sensitive subject matters that are specific to the Black community is in the clinic with a patient, then the school has failed you. Those things should be discussed with colleagues from those communities who can help shed light on those issues beforehand so you can be comfortable and accustomed to cultural issues.

                                      TLDR: Nobody is going to reject you because of your race, but if there are 100 people from the same neighborhood/town/city/community, wanting to serve the same population, a school isn't going to fill their class entirely with those people (even if they have the best GPA, MCAT, and ECs) because they would be neglecting a large portion of our population, and the purpose of training physicians is so they can serve the ENTIRE population.

                                      Lol this is BS. Just because you're a minority doesn't mean you're going to go back and help underserved communities, assuming you even came from one in the first place. This also allows minorities to take advantage of the system by playing on this type of reasoning.

                                      http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/gpa-mcat-acceptance-rates.1028462/
                                       
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                                      histidine

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                                        Kyamh, I know you only had the best of intentions in your post, but it is really not okay to generalize about an entire race like that. I am sure that the many Asian women who are reading this thread love and value their culture and do not appreciate being told that it is a culture of indoctrination.

                                        And I really think that this is a big part of the issue: I have a feeling that when an admissions committee looks at an Asian student's application, they are more likely to suspect (on a subconscious level, perhaps) that the student is motivated by parental/cultural pressure than they are for a white applicant with exactly the same application (essays and all). It's unfair and prejudiced, but it is a prejudice that is difficult to identify and stamp out because it is not fully conscious.

                                        Kind of reminds me of those experiments where researchers mailed out identical resumes to a bunch of employers and asked for feedback and found that the ones with African-American sounding names got lower scores on average. I'd like to see the results of a similar experiment with Asian sounding names would also be seen differently.

                                        ^Exactly. I was going to mention that experiment as well. Researchers have done similar experiments in a variety of settings. One studied gender discrimination in applying for lab tech jobs. Females were discriminated against - interestingly female PIs exhibited more discrimination against females applicants than male PIs. Another study was done researching professors' willingness to schedule meetings with students. Professors were less likely to respond and to set aside time if the student's name implied minority. Discrimination exists in all of us. It's an evolutionary trait that we gotta try to suppress.
                                         
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                                        ChemEngMD

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                                          While I agree on the notion of providing healthcare to underserved areas, you've worded your post in a very..... "rainbows and butterfly" manner.
                                          To say race isn't a factor is not true. Otherwise we wouldn't have affirmative action in the united states.
                                          The selection of people from certain communities ensures "equal" opportunity, and the scale will always tilt in favor of URM.
                                          I don't mean to discredit hard work or integrity, but this HAS to happen otherwise URM applicants (who statistically have lower scores/EC/credentials) would be washed out from the sheer number of other applicants with a limited number of seats. Now essentially, this limits the number of seats even further to all other applicants who aren't URM.

                                          No, you wont get rejected from medical school because of race. But you can definitely get in because of it.
                                          To say a URM and non-URM are on the same playing field, when they have the exact same scores/EC/credentials simply is not true.

                                          You don't know what affirmative action is. Medical schools do not practice affirmative action. Medical schools are trying to form classes of students that are reflective of the population that they serve. That's going to mean different things in different areas.

                                          Lol this is BS. Just because you're a minority doesn't mean you're going to go back and help underserved communities, assuming you even came from one in the first place. This also allows minorities to take advantage of the system by playing on this type of reasoning.

                                          http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/gpa-mcat-acceptance-rates.1028462/

                                          Please do not feed the troll. As decisions begin to get made and people begin to get rejected and waitlisted at their top schools they love to point a finger and blame the URM. The reason people do this is because they can't find statistics that show that really rich kids that get on their parent's connections or poor, white rural kids who get in because a school cares about serving rural areas. It's easiest to point the finger and blame the person who looks different.

                                          I'm not going to get into a flame war with you Womb Raider. We've done this in at least 2 previous threads. You can believe what you want and hold the hate that you do - I ain't worried bout nuttin.
                                           
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                                          kyamh

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                                            Kyamh, I know you only had the best of intentions in your post, but it is really not okay to generalize about an entire race like that. I mean just imagine what would happen if you were to go back into your post and replace every instance of Asian with Latino. People would be going nuts. And even now, I am sure that the many Asian women who are reading this thread love and value their culture and do not appreciate being told that it is a culture of indoctrination.

                                            I get what you are saying, but as a culturally Asian identifying woman who immigrated to America, that is exactly what I see around me and back in my home country. As far as indoctrination, I don't know what else to call the childhood-taught rule that women ought to be quiet and look down when older men are speaking. When we start arguing about percentages, we are necessarily generalizing populations. Certain stereotypes are based in fact and I am putting forth the argument that certain generalizations about a culture/ethnicity can explain the general trends (that is, AMCAS statistics) being put forth by other members.
                                             
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                                            Reckoner

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                                              As decisions begin to get made and people begin to get rejected and waitlisted at their top schools they love to point a finger and blame the URM. The reason people do this is because they can't find statistics that show that really rich kids that get on their parent's connections or poor, white rural kids who get in because a school cares about serving rural areas. It's easiest to point the finger and blame the person who looks different.
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                                              Pacna

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                                                It's a zero-sum game. If one race gets a benefit, then yes, it's a disadvantage to be another race. Whites and Asians are indeed at a disadvantage simply for being born white or Asian. I abstained from disclosing my race for this reason (though I'm not fooling anybody; my last name couldn't be more British). It is what it is.
                                                 
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                                                baboxxyun

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                                                  You don't know what affirmative action is. Medical schools do not practice affirmative action. Medical schools are trying to form classes of students that are reflective of the population that they serve. That's going to mean different things in different areas.

                                                  Really? Just because medical schools don't blatantly state "we believe in affirmative action" does not mean they do not practice it in some form or way.

                                                  taken straight from wiki- "Affirmative action (known as employment equity in Canada and elsewhere) refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin"[1] into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group "in areas of employment, education, and business"

                                                  How is this any different than what you just said?
                                                   
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                                                  Espadaleader

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                                                    I would argue that there is a disadvantage. ADCOMs are not stupid. Put down what you identify as. You think you a
                                                    It's a zero-sum game. If one race gets a benefit, then yes, it's a disadvantage to be another race. Whites and Asians are indeed at a disadvantage simply for being born white or Asian. I abstained from disclosing my race for this reason (though I'm not fooling anybody; my last name couldn't be more British). It is what it is.

                                                    For real? Asians have a disadvantage in medical school admissions? Like are you serious? Asians make up 5% of the population and make up 20% of all medical students. Asians and White applicants also are more likely to be accepted to medical school than minorities.

                                                    Have you ever been to a medical school AND/OR medical school interview. Point made.

                                                    Dude. Stop being a wimp. There is like no minorities in medical school and people are complaining that minorities are taking you spots. DUDE YOU ARE TAKING YOUR OWN SPOTS.

                                                    For one, only about 1,000 black students get in ever year. Out of over 20,000 matriculants. Trust me. If you didn't get in you probably did not lose your seat to a black person although people on SDN swear black people are taking every medical school spot like wildfire.


                                                    Medical schools have a mission to train future physicians that are representative of the United States of America. Period.

                                                    https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Diversity in Medical Education Facts and Figures 2012.pdf
                                                    https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/
                                                     
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                                                    Pacna

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                                                      I would argue that there is a disadvantage. ADCOMs are not stupid. Put down what you identify as. You think you a


                                                      You're ******ed. For real. Asians have a disadvantage in medical school admissions? Like are you serious? Asians make up 5% of the population and make up 20% of all medical students. Asians and White applicants also are more likely to be accepted to medical school than minorities.

                                                      Have you ever been to a medical school AND/OR medical school interview. Point made.

                                                      Dude. Stop being a wimp. There is like no minorities in medical school and people are complaining that minorities are taking you spots. DUDE YOU ARE TAKING YOUR OWN SPOTS.

                                                      For one, only about 1,000 black students get in ever year. Out of over 20,000 matriculants. Trust me. If you didn't get in you probably did not lose your seat to a black person although people on SDN swear black people are taking every medical school spot like wildfire.

                                                      Coward.

                                                      Medical schools have a mission to train future physicians that are representative of the United States of America. Period.

                                                      https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Diversity in Medical Education Facts and Figures 2012.pdf
                                                      https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

                                                      I'm glad everyone on this board is respectful or there would be flame wars and stuff. :rolleyes:

                                                      I did get in. That does not refute the fact that being white is a disadvantage when applying to medical school. URM applicants get a boost in acceptance rate through the virtue of being a certain race. I think that's wrong. I think an applicant should be evaluated solely on their own merits. Why is that so "******ed?"
                                                       
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                                                      Pacna

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                                                        The numbers of URMs in medical school is so low. Like they are barely even there on interviews. You have no excuse for blaming URMs for not getting it. Face it.

                                                        I didn't get in last year, and URMs didn't enter my brain as a reason for that. I improved my application and tried again. That does not refute the fact that being white/Asian is a disadvantage when applying to medical school.
                                                         
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                                                        Espadaleader

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                                                          I'm glad everyone on this board is respectful or there would be flame wars and stuff. :rolleyes:

                                                          I did get in. That does not refute the fact that being white is a disadvantage when applying to medical school. URM applicants get a boost in acceptance rate through the virtue of being a certain race. I think that's wrong. I think an applicant should be evaluated solely on their own merits. Why is that so "******ed?"

                                                          I argue that you're wrong because medicine is a service that is people dependent. Being of a certain race, certain culture, certain state are all things that may improve the quality of care for others and thus should be included in admissions.

                                                          You're not ******ed. Sorry about that.
                                                           
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                                                          ChemEngMD

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                                                            The numbers of URMs in medical school is so low. Like they are barely even there on interviews. You have no excuse for blaming URMs for not getting it. Face it.

                                                            You know this. I know this. Some people will always look at the 6 Black students, 3 Latino students, and 1 Native student in a class of 120 as people stealing their spots. Haters gon hate...just gotta keep it moving.

                                                            As previously stated: I ain't worried bout NUTTIN :laugh:
                                                             
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                                                            Espadaleader

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                                                              Having a physician population in the future that is 20% Asian and 60% White when Black and Latinos make up a quarter of this country is not ideal. Medical school admissions should not be based solely on academic merit because of the moral and personal nature of this discipline.
                                                               
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                                                              Womb Raider

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                                                                Coward.
                                                                - - - - - -
                                                                I argue that you're wrong because medicine is a service that is people dependent. Being of a certain race, certain culture, certain state are all things that may improve the quality of care for others and thus should be included in admissions.

                                                                That *may*. You're OK with using generalizations when they benefit you, but not when they go against you? Hmm, sounds about right!

                                                                This thread has nothing to do with people complaining that minorities are taking spots - we can thank ChemEng for opening that can of worms.
                                                                 
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                                                                ChemEngMD

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                                                                  That *may*. You're OK with using generalizations when they benefit you, but not when they go against you? Hmm, sounds about right!

                                                                  This thread has nothing to do with people complaining that minorities are taking spots - we can thank ChemEng for opening that can of worms.

                                                                  Right it wasn't ichor who stated that Asians were at a disadvantage and Blacks and Latinos were at an advantage first....:rolleyes:
                                                                   

                                                                  Womb Raider

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                                                                    Right it wasn't ichor who stated that Asians were at a disadvantage and Blacks and Latinos were at an advantage first....:rolleyes:

                                                                    These are two different things - as Rikk pointed out.

                                                                    "URM applicants get a boost in acceptance rate through the virtue of being a certain race." We are arguing that this concept is wrong.
                                                                     
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                                                                    Pacna

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                                                                      I argue that you're wrong because medicine is a service that is people dependent. Being of a certain race, certain culture, certain state are all things that may improve the quality of care for others and thus should be included in admissions.

                                                                      You're not ******ed. Sorry about that.

                                                                      I understand this argument, but I disagree with the process. Doing something immoral to achieve better patient care is not acceptable to me. This would be no different than if the scales were the other direction and the nation was 60% white and 20% Asian. I would not endorse separating applications and admitting based on any population ratio.

                                                                      Also, I don't think black doctors treat black patients better, and I don't think white doctors treat white patients better. I think this argument is BS.

                                                                      Thank you for the apology. :)
                                                                       
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                                                                      ChemEngMD

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                                                                        I understand this argument, but I disagree with the process. Doing something immoral to achieve better patient care is not acceptable to me. This would be no different than if the scales were the other direction and the nation was 60% white and 20% Asian. I would not endorse separating applications and admitting based on any population ratio.

                                                                        Also, I don't think black doctors treat black patients better, and I don't think white doctors treat white patients better. I think this argument is BS.

                                                                        Thank you for the apology. :)

                                                                        You have to be able to trust your physician. Ignore it all you want but there is a long history of medical mistreatment of minorities in this country and their effects have rippled out to present day.

                                                                        If you are going to ignore the role that culture plays in the treatment of patients you are going to be in for a rude wake up call in the future.
                                                                         
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                                                                        Pacna

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                                                                          You have to be able to trust your physician. Ignore it all you want but there is a long history of medical mistreatment of minorities in this country and their effects have rippled out to present day.

                                                                          If you are going to ignore the role that culture plays in the treatment of patients you are going to be in for a rude wake up call in the future.

                                                                          So teach physicians culture.

                                                                          The only solution to the problem is not screening applicants via race. It's just not. And it's wrong. Racism on an institutional level is wrong (no matter how small the percentage). I think we can both agree on that.
                                                                           
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                                                                          ChemEngMD

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                                                                            So teach physicians culture.

                                                                            The only solution to the problem is not screening applicants via race. It's just not. And it's wrong. Racism on an institutional level is wrong (no matter how small the percentage). I think we can both agree on that.

                                                                            Who said schools screen based on race? Most schools are doing "holistic" approaches now where they look at every part of your application (GPA, MCAT, ECs, major, Undergrad institution, home town, and, yes, even your ethnicity) and then make a decision based upon the whole package.

                                                                            Some schools have a massive preference for people from ivy league or top 10 universities/LACs. Why don't people complain about that? I know people who got into those schools but could not attend strictly due to financial reasons. Do we claim that schools are discriminating against the middle class? No. We consider the undergrad a part of an applicant's total package and similarly that is all that one's cultural background is - a part of the whole package.

                                                                            And who's going to teach the physicians culture? As I stated previously, many schools want minority students in their classes so that those students can teach their classmates about their cultures and vice a versa. If you have a bunch of White and Asian professors teaching a bunch of Asian and White students about Latino and Black issues, you don't think they might miss a few of the subtler points?
                                                                             
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                                                                            LizzyM

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                                                                              So teach physicians culture.

                                                                              The only solution to the problem is not screening applicants via race. It's just not. And it's wrong. Racism on an institutional level is wrong (no matter how small the percentage). I think we can both agree on that.


                                                                              If we were to stop asking any questions about race and ethnicity, we could very easily discriminate on the basis of race and no one could prove a thing because there would be no statistics on the proportion of applicants and matriculants of a given race.

                                                                              Want to get into medical school? You are competing with others of your same race/ethnicity. Be better than 60% of them and you will get in. Want to join the "prefer not to answer" club? You need to be better than 60% of that group to get an offer.

                                                                              Even if not a single black, Hispanic or Native American were admitted to medical school there would still be >10,000 white and Asian applicants who would not get admitted. A lot more than 10,000 but I'm not in a mood to look up the exact number.

                                                                              And a final note about the discrepancy between white and Asian applicants being admitted. Keep in mind that there are two things I frequently see that could explain that: international applicants are more likely to be Asian than to be white and we know those international applicants have a lower likelihood of admission due to visa issues. Foreign born applicants, whether citizens or not, sometimes have language skills that are less than acceptable for admission. We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves. That could easily explain a 3% difference in admission between white and Asian applicants.
                                                                               
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                                                                              QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                                We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves. That could easily explain a 3% difference in admission between white and Asian applicants.

                                                                                This comment reeks of stereotyping, imo.

                                                                                What I mean by that is, I think that admissions people may make assumptions before even meeting an Asian applicant. My Asian friends are routinely asked questions about their true motivations vs. their parents dreams. My black and white friends are not asked these questions in such a pointed manner. I think this bias is destructive, rampant, and probably plays a bigger role in the Asian disadvantage than any real difference in their motivations.
                                                                                 
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                                                                                LizzyM

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                                                                                  This comment reeks of stereotyping, imo.

                                                                                  What I mean by that is, I think that admissions people may make assumptions before even meeting an Asian applicant. My Asian friends are routinely asked questions about their true motivations vs. their parents dreams. My black and white friends are not asked these questions in such a pointed manner. I think this bias is destructive, rampant, and probably plays a bigger role in the Asian disadvantage than any real difference in their motivations.

                                                                                  Does it really? The fact remains that some parents push their kids in directions that the offspring would not choose if they were acting independently. I see that on this board all the time with posters who don't know how to put the brakes on parents who are full-steam ahead although the kid doesn't want to go there. If someone doesn't really want to go to medical school, we are doing them a favor to see that they don't get in.
                                                                                   
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                                                                                  Pacna

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                                                                                    1. If we were to stop asking any questions about race and ethnicity, we could very easily discriminate on the basis of race and no one could prove a thing because there would be no statistics on the proportion of applicants and matriculants of a given race.

                                                                                    2. Want to get into medical school? You are competing with others of your same race/ethnicity. Be better than 60% of them and you will get in. Want to join the "prefer not to answer" club? You need to be better than 60% of that group to get an offer.

                                                                                    Even if not a single black, Hispanic or Native American were admitted to medical school there would still be >10,000 white and Asian applicants who would not get admitted. A lot more than 10,000 but I'm not in a mood to look up the exact number.

                                                                                    3. And a final note about the discrepancy between white and Asian applicants being admitted. Keep in mind that there are two things I frequently see that could explain that: international applicants are more likely to be Asian than to be white and we know those international applicants have a lower likelihood of admission due to visa issues. Foreign born applicants, whether citizens or not, sometimes have language skills that are less than acceptable for admission. We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves. That could easily explain a 3% difference in admission between white and Asian applicants.

                                                                                    1. Not true. You could sample the class after matriculation. Besides, even if that were true, it does not justify factoring someone's race into their application. It's wrong to give advantage or disadvantage based on race.

                                                                                    2. Fair to say that's how it is today. That doesn't make it moral. Because it isn't.

                                                                                    3. I hadn't thought of that (probably because I'm not foreign). Good point.

                                                                                    Who said schools screen based on race? Most schools are doing "holistic" approaches now where they look at every part of your application (GPA, MCAT, ECs, major, Undergrad institution, home town, and, yes, even your ethnicity) and then make a decision based upon the whole package.

                                                                                    Some schools have a massive preference for people from ivy league or top 10 universities/LACs. Why don't people complain about that? I know people who got into those schools but could not attend strictly due to financial reasons. Do we claim that schools are discriminating against the middle class? No. We consider the undergrad a part of an applicant's total package and similarly that is all that one's cultural background is - a part of the whole package.

                                                                                    And who's going to teach the physicians culture? As I stated previously, many schools want minority students in their classes so that those students can teach their classmates about their cultures and vice a versa. If you have a bunch of White and Asian professors teaching a bunch of Asian and White students about Latino and Black issues, you don't think they might miss a few of the subtler points?

                                                                                    Your argument is a pragmatist argument. It's not a moral one. The same types of questions were asked before slavery was ended ("but who's going to pick the cotton? The economy will come to a halt!"). It doesn't matter who's going to pick the cotton. It doesn't matter how physicians are going to learn culture. You cannot justify a breach of morality with some other positive end.
                                                                                     
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                                                                                    QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                                      Does it really? The fact remains that some parents push their kids in directions that the offspring would not choose if they were acting independently. I see that on this board all the time with posters who don't know how to put the brakes on parents who are full-steam ahead although the kid doesn't want to go there. If someone doesn't really want to go to medical school, we are doing them a favor to see that they don't get in.

                                                                                      Yes, I think you are stereotyping when you pin Asian kids with this assumption. If a white, black, or hispanic applicant walks into your office with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT, do you scrutinize his motivation the same way you would if he were Chinese or Indian? Most likely the answer is no, you wonder the most about the Asian or Indian kid's motivation, and that puts Asian applicants at an unfair disadvantage solely due to stereotypes about their race. What if I said that it's a "fact" that black people are more likely to be incarcerated compared to other races, and therefore it's natural that I should be on the lookout for black applicants with criminal tendencies? Actually, that's not even as bad (although still awful), because the raw numbers would actually back me up on that one. Your presumption is based on nothing more except your feelings and ideas about Asian immigrant cultures.

                                                                                      I see nothing wrong with scrutinizing an applicant's motivation for medicine, but all applicants should be treated equally in this regard.
                                                                                       
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                                                                                      LizzyM

                                                                                      the evil queen of numbers
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                                                                                      1. Academic Administration
                                                                                        1. Not true. You could sample the class after matriculation. Besides, even if that were true, it does not justify factoring someone's race into their application. It's wrong to give advantage or disadvantage based on race.

                                                                                        2. Fair to say that's how it is today. That doesn't make it moral. Because it isn't.

                                                                                        3. I hadn't thought of that (probably because I'm not foreign). Good point.



                                                                                        Your argument is a pragmatist argument. It's not a moral one. The same types of questions were asked before slavery was ended ("but who's going to pick the cotton? The economy will come to a halt!"). It doesn't matter who's going to pick the cotton. It doesn't matter how physicians are going to learn culture. You cannot justify a breach of morality with some other positive end.
                                                                                        A sample after matriculation tells you nothing of the denominator (the pool of appliants). What proportion of Asian kids got admitted? whites? blacks? You can't charge me with discriminating against Asian applicants if I have a class that is 10% Asian and you have no data on the proportion of Asian who applied or anything about them.
                                                                                         
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