Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

[sniderwes]

college/med school admissions are fcking racist. get over it, nothing new.

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[LizzyM]

Yes, I think you are stereotyping when you pin Asian kids with this assumption. If a white, black, or hispanic applicant walks into your office with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT, do you scrutinize his motivation the same way you would if he were Chinese or Indian? Most likely the answer is no, you wonder the most about the Asian or Indian kid's motivation, and that puts Asian applicants at an unfair disadvantage solely due to stereotypes about their race. What if I said that it's a "fact" that black people are more likely to be incarcerated compared to other races, and therefore it's natural that I should be on the lookout for black applicants with criminal tendencies? Actually, that's not even as bad (although still awful), because the raw numbers would actually back me up on that one. Your presumption is based on nothing more except your feelings and ideas about Asian immigrant cultures.

I see nothing wrong with scrutinizing an applicant's motivation for medicine, but all applicants should be treated equally in this regard.

I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

Every matriculant gets a criminal background check, not just the minorities. And a criminal background check is for criminal behavior... not criminal "tendencies" whatever those are. Sounds like some steroptyping going on here, bud.

 

[Pacna]

A sample after matriculation tells you nothing of the denominator (the pool of appliants). What proportion of Asian kids got admitted? whites? blacks? You can't charge me with discriminating against Asian applicants if I have a class that is 10% Asian and you have no data on the proportion of Asian who applied or anything about them.

Have the info dumped into AMCAS to be released after the application season is over.

The point is that it's not right. Even if there was no way (which there clearly is) to avoid using race as a factor in an application, it would still be wrong to do.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Your argument is a pragmatist argument. It's not a moral one. The same types of questions were asked before slavery was ended ("but who's going to pick the cotton? The economy will come to a halt!"). It doesn't matter who's going to pick the cotton. It doesn't matter how physicians are going to learn culture. You cannot justify a breach of morality with some other positive end.

Creating physician classes that better represent the ethnic mix of the country is not only pragmatic good but a moral one. I'm not going to bother explaining why to someone who has just compared medical school admission to fcking slavery

Yes, I think you are stereotyping when you pin Asian kids with this assumption. If a white, black, or hispanic applicant walks into your office with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT, do you scrutinize his motivation the same way you would if he were Chinese or Indian? Most likely the answer is no, you wonder the most about the Asian or Indian kid's motivation, and that puts Asian applicants at an unfair disadvantage solely due to stereotypes about their race. What if I said that it's a "fact" that black people are more likely to be incarcerated compared to other races, and therefore it's natural that I should be on the lookout for black applicants with criminal tendencies? Actually, that's not even as bad (although still awful), because the raw numbers would actually back me up on that one. Your presumption is based on nothing more except your feelings and ideas about Asian immigrant cultures.

I see nothing wrong with scrutinizing an applicant's motivation for medicine, but all applicants should be treated equally in this regard.

 

[sniderwes]

Let me ask you this: the point of med school selection is to choose the applicants who have the most potential to become the best doctors, right? People who are going to be seeing patients and whose actions may directly decide if they live or die?

Then why is race even considered? I don't care if my doctor if black or white. I want the person who will be able to provide the best care for me, because that's what patients deserve.

 

[baconshrimps]

A lot of very good arguments and counterpoints being made here, I'd like to throw my $0.02.

Someone has mentioned that "if you don't get into medical school, it is not because of URM's - they are barely there at the interviews because there are so few applying"

While it is true to say that it may not necessarily be the case that a URM took the seat of an ORM based on the color of their skin or what country their parents are from, I do think it needs to be noted that an Asian or a White applicant with a 3.4 GPA and a 29 MCAT are against much greater odds than a Black or Native American or Hispanic applicant with those statistics, and for the sake or argument, we can assume that the non-numerical metrics of their application are the same....all the way from motivation to # of clinical volunteering hours. I fully realize that this 'dipping deeper into the pool' as ChemEngMD has stated is brought about by a given schools mission to provide physicians to all sects of society, but someone else has pointed out that this argument is bleek at best, because there is no guarantee that someone from a certain community plans on practicing there as a physician. I am white but I can tell you I grew up in a very medically inaccessible home, and I have absolutely no intentions of returning to my community - I like to think with my acceptance to medical school I have provided a means for myself to move into a safer, perhaps even more affluent community and I will be better positioned to live a comfortable lifestyle and make sure my children don't face the same challenges I did growing up....and I think most other applicants from the lower-middle class and below would feel the same way. Getting back to the point, however - while medical schools are 'digging deeper into the pool' of URM applicants, if a URM applicant is accepted with a 3.4 and a 29 MCAT, there is the implied value that this applicant is academically suitable to survive the rigors of medical school. Why then is it, that an ORM applicant with such numbers will often be rejected and told "not competitive enough" or "your GPA suggests you aren't prepared for medical school" - there should be no difference in academic suitability for a medical curriculum between a minority applicant and an ORM applicant with the same numerical peices to the application (once again, we are assuming all else is equal as well.) So, in this process, I think it is fair to say that URM applicants may be held to a lower standard in the admissions process - I am not saying I agree with it nor am I saying I have a problem with it - this just seems to be an angle noone has yet put forth. I suppose what I am driving at here, is that while a URM is not 'taking the seat of a non-URM', there is a stark difference in the expected level of academic achievement between these two groups of people.

I have a friend who is half white and half cuban - can you guess what they are putting as their race when they apply to medical school this summer? I have a friend who is Arab and Dominican - both of her parents are very high up on the corporate ladder at some company - she didn't necessarily face the challenges of the URM communities that medical schools base this evaluation on but can you guess what she is putting as her race on her AMCAS? For the record, she isn't a numerically stellar applicant. I am not mentioning this to be disparaging, but rather because someone else had pointed out that some people (URM candidates) are in a position to 'play the system' to their advantage, and here are two examples from my personal life that I know this happens. Their motivations are great, and these people each have a handful of diligent EC's (leadership, volunteering, etc) but should they be given this 'bump' in the merit of their application simply by way of their race? These are not people with challenged communities to return to, nor are they people who's academics were downgraded in the face of other life challenges. What is it exactly that these two people bring to the table then?

Someone else has mentioned that Asian cultures may be indoctrinating, and then another SDNer countered that argument. To that SDNer, I encourage you to read the book 'Tiger Mom'. Better yet, talk to my friend from high school who's parents caned him when he had a report card that was all B's. How do I know about that particular piece of my friends home life? Awkward pool party - thats how. In many Asian cultures, the youth of the home is considered foremost a student, and that role is expected to be maintained inside and outside of the classroom. This is very apparent in Asian-American communities as well, and while this will drive one towards excellent academics, perhaps it downplays the value of experiences outside of the classroom, and these Asian applicants with stellar numbers may not be able to contend with other applicants due to few/poor extracurricular activities. This is a peice of the application that cannot be ignored.

For those who are curious, I am white and I am broke. My parent's were broke. Single parent home. Had a roof over my head, and food on the table. Could not always go to the doctor when I was sick - toughed it out. My immune system is probably stronger than anyone else I know applying to medical school (little joke to lighten the mood here a bit.) I had clothes on my back. Never even had a game boy when I was a kid (who remembers gameboy? I hope I'm not aging myself here)- video games were something I got to do when I went to college. I don't think we had a computer in my house until maybe my junior or senior year of high school (mid-2000's) So was youtube. So was having a laptop. I'm not from the streets or the hood by any means, but on the socioeconomic spectrum, I definately swing closer to destitute than anything else, as does my family. I am accepted to medical school, and frankly, if it weren't for these affirmative action programs, I probably wouldn't know my 5 best friends from college. Despite all of this, do you think it was assumed that I had a better life experience than this when I applied to medical school? You betcha - that is why I wrote extensively about my upbringing in my application, so that no assumptions could be made. However, I do not think an URM applicant would have had to go to these lengths. There is an intrinsic bias such that when an ACDOM see's "African American" or "Native Alaskan" or whathaveyou, a certain lifestyle/upbringing comes to mind, one of hardship and tribulation - regardless of if that is true or not for the applicant. I have been accepted to medical school, with less than a 3.5 GPA and less than a 34 MCAT. I was by no means a competitive applicant, but I think my life story is what got me in. I was not sure I would get in, because I was only able to discuss my challenges and trials at the expense of a good deal of my medically related experiences, which were really limited to the space I had in my extracurricular section of AMCAS.

If you are URM, my post is not meant to insult, attack or target. It is simply to point out that these URM programs/affirmative action DO have their merits, but it is not a system that should be played. If you are a URM and you do not have particularly great numerical stats, I hope you are at least grateful for the opportunity that you have ahead of you - and do not feel like it is owed to you, because it isnt. As ChemEngMD correctly pointed out, medical school is not a reward for having the best grades - likewise, it is not a reward for having unique life experiences either - it is a very mixed bag.

To QuinnTheEskimo - it is my understanding that LizzyM is an administrator at a very well respected medical institution. You do not have to take what LizzyM says as gospel, but you should perhaps extend to her more respect than you have on this board.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

Every matriculant gets a criminal background check, not just the minorities. And a criminal background check is for criminal behavior... not criminal "tendencies" whatever those are. Sounds like some steroptyping going on here, bud.

This is my point exactly... There is no hard data for motivation for medicine, no hard number. I don't see how you can possibly defend your position as non-racist and non-stereotyping. If you believe that Asians are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents, and you approach an interview with that idea in mind, you are engaging in racial stereotyping, by definition.

It puts Asian applicants at a disadvantage. I have many Asian friends who have dreamed of being doctors since they were little, with no input from their parents...yet at interviews, they are grilled about whether or not they have been pushed into by their Tiger Mother/Father.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

To QuinnTheEskimo - it is my understanding that LizzyM is an administrator at a very well respected medical institution. You do not have to take what LizzyM says as gospel, but you should perhaps extend to her more respect than you have on this board.

I am merely sharing my point of view,which differs from hers, in this case. I don't think I have disrespected her in any regard.

 

[Pacna]

Creating physician classes that better represent the ethnic mix of the country is not only pragmatic good but a moral one. I'm not going to bother explaining why to someone who has just compared medical school admission to fcking slavery

Now we know that you're someone that uses emotion rather than rationality. That's not necessarily worse, but it is a fact. Sensationalizing a logical point is a good example of this.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Let me ask you this: the point of med school selection is to choose the applicants who have the most potential to become the best doctors, right? People who are going to be seeing patients and whose actions may directly decide if they live or die?

Then why is race even considered? I don't care if my doctor if black or white. I want the person who will be able to provide the best care for me, because that's what patients deserve.

Medicine is not an exact science, and the entire concept of "best care" is arbitrary most of the time and undefined in others. The person best suited to provide care is usually the person the patient trusts the most, not who got the higher mcat or whatever. And it's a fact, an undebateable fact, that people trust doctors that look like them.

 

[LizzyM]

Let me ask you this: the point of med school selection is to choose the applicants who have the most potential to become the best doctors, right? People who are going to be seeing patients and whose actions may directly decide if they live or die?

Then why is race even considered? I don't care if my doctor if black or white. I want the person who will be able to provide the best care for me, because that's what patients deserve.

Most likely you feel this way because you are not black and you don't have trust issues with professionals who are not like you. There are minorities in this country including blacks as well as LGBT and other minorities who have been treated badly by people in the dominant culture. There are very qualified applicants who are ready and willing to be trained to meet the needs of this population, needs that are not being met otherwise. Who will be the "best" doctors depends on how you define "best".

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Lol. I hope I made it clear that I do not share that viewpoint. I was trying to draw a comparison and show that racial bias is wrong in every regard.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Now we know that you're someone that uses emotion rather than rationality. That's not necessarily worse, but it is a fact. Sensationalizing a logical point is a good example of this.

The only emotion I wish to convey is contempt at your laughable attempt at "logic" and accusing me of sensationalizing for calling out your absurd reduction. Fact.

Lol. I hope I made it clear that I do not share that viewpoint. I was trying to draw a comparison and show that racial bias is wrong in every regard.

It's a terrible comparison.

 

[LizzyM]

This is my point exactly... There is no hard data for motivation for medicine, no hard number. I don't see how you can possibly defend your position as non-racist and non-stereotyping. If you believe that Asians are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents, and you approach an interview with that idea in mind, you are engaging in racial stereotyping, by definition.

It puts Asian applicants at a disadvantage. I have many Asian friends who have dreamed of being doctors since they were little, with no input from their parents...yet at interviews, they are grilled about whether or not they have been pushed into by their Tiger Mother/Father.

If this is the case for your friends, they should have no problem in the interview in this regard.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

It's a terrible comparison.

Why? I don't see how it's any different.

 

[Pacna]

The only emotion I wish to convey is contempt at your laughable attempt at "logic" and accusing me of sensationalizing for calling out your absurd reduction. Fact.

You have yet to refute anything I have said. I take that to mean that you cannot. You can make a comparison between rape and murder. You can compare theft and murder. You can compare lots of things without having knee jerk reactions. That's called using logic. Your sensationalization is due to your own insecurity in discussing the topic (possibly for good reason! Maybe you were a slave at some point! If so, I'm very sorry that horrible injustice was done to you).

 

[RogueUnicorn]

A lot of very good arguments and counterpoints being made here, I'd like to throw my $0.02.
snip

An actually well thought out post

Why? I don't see how it's any different.

That further underscores why it's a terrible comparison

You have yet to refute anything I have said. I take that to mean that you cannot. You can make a comparison between rape and murder. You can compare theft and murder. You can compare lots of things without having knee jerk reactions. That's called using logic. Your sensationalization is due to your own insecurity in discussing the topic (possibly for good reason! Maybe you were a slave at some point! If so, I'm very sorry that horrible injustice was done to you).

This would be akin to comparing murder and jaywalking. And even that's stretching it. I know you won't understand this since in your strange mind you haven't yet processed how I've already refuted what you've said. Strong work. Carry on.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Your argument is a pragmatist argument. It's not a moral one. The same types of questions were asked before slavery was ended ("but who's going to pick the cotton? The economy will come to a halt!"). It doesn't matter who's going to pick the cotton. It doesn't matter how physicians are going to learn culture. You cannot justify a breach of morality with some other positive end.

Wow, I can't.

Please tell me you aren't accepted to any schools I am, and if so, please tell me which ones and I will withdraw immediately.

 

[Pacna]

This would be akin to comparing murder and jaywalking. And even that's stretching it. I know you won't understand this since in your strange mind you haven't yet processed how I've already refuted what you've said. Strong work. Carry on.

Yes, you can compare murder and jaywalking. They don't have much in common, but they do share things (they're both illegal for instance). They're also arguably both breaches of contracts (jaywalking is a breach of the rules of the road which you have agreed to if you have a driver's license, and murder is a breach of social contract [I disagree with this, but the argument could be made]).

The fact that you're missing this is concerning.

 

[Pacna]

Wow, I can't.

Please tell me you aren't accepted to any schools I am, and if so, please tell me which ones and I will withdraw immediately.

? PM me if you'd like to know.

 

[kyamh]

Soooo back to those statistics that compared White and Asian admission rates. I think that there was a funny jump that happened from "Asians with a 3.5 getting rejected more often than Whites with a 3.5" to "out of students with a 3.5 Asian applications are tossed out due to prejudice". My original point was that there may be a connection between Asian immigrant culture (which I know intimately and in multiple locations in this country) and students with 3.5 GPAs having sub-par ECs/internal motivation for medicine.

LizzyM already said that she screens all applicants for motivation to go into medicine. Why do we find it more easy to believe that adcoms discriminate against Asians than that there is a particularly big clump of Asian applicants with a 3.5 and subpar motivation? Similarly, why do we believe that adcoms love all Blacks/Hispanics instead of assuming that the low stat/amazing story applicants are disproportionately URM?

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Wow, I can't.

Please tell me you aren't accepted to any schools I am, and if so, please tell me which ones and I will withdraw immediately.

You dudes are being way too harsh on Rik. I thought he made an apt comparison. He's not saying that medical school rejection is as bad as slavery . He is saying that what is moral does not always jibe with what is pragmatic at the time. the moral decision should always win out.

 

[Life Sucks]

I know I'm not helping, but you guys sure are entertaining me after a rough day of lab...

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Soooo back to those statistics that compared White and Asian admission rates. I think that there was a funny jump that happened from "Asians with a 3.5 getting rejected more often than Whites with a 3.5" to "out of students with a 3.5 Asian applications are tossed out due to prejudice". My original point was that there may be a connection between Asian immigrant culture (which I know intimately and in multiple locations in this country) and students with 3.5 GPAs having sub-par ECs/internal motivation for medicine.

LizzyM already said that she screens all applicants for motivation to go into medicine. Why do we find it more easy to believe that adcoms discriminate against Asians than that there is a particularly big clump of Asian applicants with a 3.5 and subpar motivation? Similarly, why do we believe that adcoms love all Blacks/Hispanics instead of assuming that the low stat/amazing story applicants are disproportionately URM?

Did you read the comments on this thread? The major argument for giving URMs special consideration is that patients like to go to doctors who look like themselves, and therefore receive better/more frequent medical care. It's not about amazing stories or what have you.

 

[histidine]

Rule #1 of SDN

 

[chenzt]

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[chenzt]

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[ChemEngMD]

You dudes are being way too harsh on Rik. I thought he made an apt comparison. He's not saying that medical school rejection is as bad as slavery . He is saying that what is moral does not always jibe with what is pragmatic at the time. the moral decision should always win out.

I think the moral question is how to provide healthcare professionals for all communities.

Bruised egos of White and ORM applicants with 3.5s aside, it is more important (read moral) for medical schools to provide physicians to communities that do not currently have them (read rural, urban, URM). On a micro, individual level someone may see it as immoral that, because they are not a better applicant than 60% of their particular demographic, they are not accepted to the school of their choice, despite them being statistically stronger than other applicants who are accepted, but the people at medical schools see that on a macro, population level it is far more immoral that hundreds of thousands of patients in underserved communities do not have the same access to physicians that people in other communities do.

Is it more immoral to reject an applicant because as a future physician he is more likely to serve a population that is not in dire need or to accept the best statistical applicant, ignoring the current healthcare access disparities in underserved communities? I think medical school admissions committees realize the significance of their role in shaping what the future healthcare of America will look like and have chosen to address healthcare disparities by accepting more students from those backgrounds.

@baconshrimps I appreciate your well thought out post, but I do not feel that 2 cases of minority students attempting to use that to their advantage is a trend as much as it is a function of a few people you know. For what it's worth, schools often match up minority interviewers with minority interviewees (has happened to me a few times) and they are there to see what your future motivation is. An application also speaks for itself. If you don't consider yourself Latino in any scenario except when you put it on applications, it will definitely show. They look for applicants with proven histories of dedication to their communities. They aren't going to take a non-Spanish speaking 1/4 Honduran applicant who has 0 experience in the Latino community over a statistically more qualified Asian or White applicant simply for the fact that he is 1/4 Honduran. The URM applicants that ADCOMs love are the ones who have shown genuine commitment and devotion to their communities through service and leadership. They don't want us there just because we look physically different; they want us there so that we can bring something different to the table.

I can understand you not wanting to return to your community, but for many of us our communities are our home and, while it may be tough, we still love it. I won't feel comfortable in an affluent neighborhood with a bunch of people who don't look like me. I don't want to have to drive an hour to find a place that can cook me some legit arroz con pollo or soul food.

We're all in this because we want to serve others and improve the health of our country/world, right? Because it seems that a lot of people on here want to become physicians for some sort of societal validation or as a reward for getting the highest score in organic chemistry.

 

[kyamh]

Did you read the comments on this thread? The major argument for giving URMs special consideration is that patients like to go to doctors who look like themselves, and therefore receive better/more frequent medical care. It's not about amazing stories or what have you.

I did read all the comments - my point is that a bunch of people jumped on these social arguments without considering a real bias in the application pool. I don't put stock in the patient/doctor similarity argument since I think it very quickly snowballs out of control (eg: we need proportional numbers of Catholics/Atheists/Amish/LGBTQ/Republicans etc in our graduating class as in America at large). That said, I'm totally riding on the LGBTQ diversity, haha

 

[wtr24]

Depends on your ethnicity. It is not directly a disadvantage, though it can certainly be an advantage if you are a certain ethnicity.

 

[MangoPlant]

Chill, you want to know why fewer %-wise Asians get in? I would argue it is because those students are more likely - even with good MCATs and GPAs - to have poor applications in other regards.

I am really annoyed at how we tip-toe on SDN. Many students spout BS about having a passion for medicine but are only going this route to please others/ can't remember a time when their life path was not laid out - this is a fact. Various Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices and have not embraced the US mentality that young adults need to find a career that they are passionate about.

With all due respect, this is a load of bull. What evidence do you have for this? If you happen to know a few Asians like this, it does NOT mean that "Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices" ...

 

[MangoPlant]

Perhaps it is better to compare Asians against Whites instead of Asians/Whites vs URM. For URM preference, the main argument seems to be that there are so few URM applicants that not as many high-stat applicants are available. However, there are less Asian applicants than Whites yet Asians still have lower acceptance rates in every MCAT/GPA category. I like LizzyM's theory that this may be due to more international-students being Asian, and I certainly hope that this is the case but I am not so sure whether AAMC categorizes Asian international students in the "Asian" category or in the "Foreign" category. In this chart: https://www.aamc.org/download/321540/data/2012factstable31.pdf , "Asian" is one category and "Foreign" is another category. If Asian international students are separately classified as foreign, then that theory does not explain the discrepancies in acceptance rates among Asian and White applicants.

 

[baboxxyun]

Did you read the comments on this thread? The major argument for giving URMs special consideration is that patients like to go to doctors who look like themselves, and therefore receive better/more frequent medical care. It's not about amazing stories or what have you.

While this may be the argument of this thread, historically, the argument for URM receiving special consideration is that people from underserved areas are already limited in educational opportunities and career advancements. Essentially, these people are economically disadvantaged and would always rank 2nd compared to people who grew up in developed areas and exposed to the "gold standard" of education. This is where the "special consideration" comes in to help alleviate the gap between the two groups. However, this is also where the discrimination and reverse discrimination stems from. There have been MANY lawsuits regarding these issues.

If you don't give URM special consideration, it will be discrimination.
If you do give URM special consideration, it will be reverse discrimination.

IMO though.... if someone has to play the race card to justify a certain outcome... that person probably won't get far in life. You get to where you are on your own accord. Race has nothing to do with it.

 

[Chipster.]

While this may be the argument of this thread, historically, the argument for URM receiving special consideration is that people from underserved areas are already limited in educational opportunities and career advancements. Essentially, these people are economically disadvantaged and would always rank 2nd compared to people who grew up in developed areas and exposed to the "gold standard" of education. This is where the "special consideration" comes in to help alleviate the gap between the two groups. However, this is also where the discrimination and reverse discrimination stems from. There have been MANY lawsuits regarding these issues.

If you don't give URM special consideration, it will be discrimination.
If you do give URM special consideration, it will be reverse discrimination.

IMO though.... if someone has to play the race card to justify a certain outcome... that person probably won't get far in life. You get to where you are on your own accord. Race has nothing to do with it.

Tell that to Abigail Fisher: http://gawker.com/5991588/the-white...n-was-too-dumb-to-get-into-her-chosen-college

Don't point the finger, pull the thumb.

 

[MangoPlant]

While this may be the argument of this thread, historically, the argument for URM receiving special consideration is that people from underserved areas are already limited in educational opportunities and career advancements. Essentially, these people are economically disadvantaged and would always rank 2nd compared to people who grew up in developed areas and exposed to the "gold standard" of education. This is where the "special consideration" comes in to help alleviate the gap between the two groups. However, this is also where the discrimination and reverse discrimination stems from. There have been MANY lawsuits regarding these issues.

If you don't give URM special consideration, it will be discrimination.
If you do give URM special consideration, it will be reverse discrimination.

IMO though.... if someone has to play the race card to justify a certain outcome... that person probably won't get far in life. You get to where you are on your own accord. Race has nothing to do with it.

I never understood this argument either. If the argument is that URMs are disadvantaged because they are more likely to be in undeserved areas, why not just give advantages for low socioeconomic-status instead of giving an advantage based on ethnicity. By assuming that because an applicant is URM he/she is more likely to have lived in an undeserved environment, the poor non-URMs who probably had the same oppurtunities as the poor-URMs are heavily disfavored. Seems unfair for non-URMs who grew up in just as bad neighborhoods. Again, I don't think that this is the reason for giving URM special consideration in current times, simply because it does not make sense. I'd like to believe the theory someone else posted earlier, that URMs are given special consideration because there are so few that apply. Looking at the statistics seems to back up the claim that there are incredibly few URMs that apply but it does not seem fair when Asians are compared with whites, because there are fewer Asians that apply yet they are also given special consideration except in a negative way.

 

[kyamh]

With all due respect, this is a load of bull. What evidence do you have for this? If you happen to know a few Asians like this, it does NOT mean that "Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices" ...

I am culturally Asian/Eastern European. My family all immigrated or still live there, I spent the majority of my childhood there. My family lived in a culturally immigrant Asian community in America after immigration....yeah, I happen to know a few Asians have you read my other posts on this thread?

 

[Aerus]

I never understood this argument either. If the argument is that URMs are disadvantaged because they are more likely to be in undeserved areas, why not just give advantages for low socioeconomic-status instead of giving an advantage based on ethnicity. By assuming that because an applicant is URM he/she is more likely to have lived in an undeserved environment, the poor non-URMs who probably had the same oppurtunities as the poor-URMs are heavily disfavored. Seems unfair for non-URMs who grew up in just as bad neighborhoods. Again, I don't think that this is the reason for giving URM special consideration in current times, simply because it does not make sense. I'd like to believe the theory someone else posted earlier, that URMs are given special consideration because there are so few that apply. Looking at the statistics seems to back up the claim that there are incredibly few URMs that apply but it does not seem fair when Asians are compared with whites, because there are fewer Asians that apply yet they are also given special consideration except in a negative way.

I am ORM, so I can say this without bias.

People who are Latino or African American are disadvantaged in society. It's intrinsic prejudice that keeps the majority of these communities in poverty. There's no genetic difference between people of different races, so why is there such a huge gap? It's institutional, societal discrimination that just about all of us (on some degree) have.

 

[Leoz M Jiliums]

@MangoPlant

Hey bro(ette?), my buddy and I both decided not to disclose race, we got 23 interviews and 10 acceptances (7 his) between us so far so I don't think it'll hurt you in any way in the long run. (Both of us as Asian as it gets btw)


@fellow Asians

Don't worry about the haters , for every Adcom like LizzyM, there are a bunch more willing to give us a more fair shake (from what I've seen). Keep doin whacha doin and don't worry about things not in your control.



@People saying Asians have over-controlling parents

Having Asian parents is awesome. You guys are totally missing out.

 

[MangoPlant]

I am culturally Asian/Eastern European. My family all immigrated or still live there, I spent the majority of my childhood there. My family lived in a culturally immigrant Asian community in America after immigration....yeah, I happen to know a few Asians have you read my other posts on this thread?

Fair enough. I too have had many experiences with Asians as well and my experiences have not been the same as yours, this is why I think it's not fair to say that an entire race is more prone to one thing because of personal experiences. Additionally, "Asian" is a broad term that includes many groups such as Indians, Japaneese, Chinese, Vietnamese, that are culturally different. We may be talking about completely different "Asians." I somewhat understand where you are coming from, but don't agree with the idea that Asians are more prone to being forced do become doctors.

 

[baconshrimps]

I think the moral question is how to provide healthcare professionals for all communities.

Bruised egos of White and ORM applicants with 3.5s aside, it is more important (read moral) for medical schools to provide physicians to communities that do not currently have them (read rural, urban, URM). On a micro, individual level someone may see it as immoral that, because they are not a better applicant than 60% of their particular demographic, they are not accepted to the school of their choice, despite them being statistically stronger than other applicants who are accepted, but the people at medical schools see that on a macro, population level it is far more immoral that hundreds of thousands of patients in underserved communities do not have the same access to physicians that people in other communities do.

Is it more immoral to reject an applicant because as a future physician he is more likely to serve a population that is not in dire need or to accept the best statistical applicant, ignoring the current healthcare access disparities in underserved communities? I think medical school admissions committees realize the significance of their role in shaping what the future healthcare of America will look like and have chosen to address healthcare disparities by accepting more students from those backgrounds.

@baconshrimps I appreciate your well thought out post, but I do not feel that 2 cases of minority students attempting to use that to their advantage is a trend as much as it is a function of a few people you know. For what it's worth, schools often match up minority interviewers with minority interviewees (has happened to me a few times) and they are there to see what your future motivation is. An application also speaks for itself. If you don't consider yourself Latino in any scenario except when you put it on applications, it will definitely show. They look for applicants with proven histories of dedication to their communities. They aren't going to take a non-Spanish speaking 1/4 Honduran applicant who has 0 experience in the Latino community over a statistically more qualified Asian or White applicant simply for the fact that he is 1/4 Honduran. The URM applicants that ADCOMs love are the ones who have shown genuine commitment and devotion to their communities through service and leadership. They don't want us there just because we look physically different; they want us there so that we can bring something different to the table.

I can understand you not wanting to return to your community, but for many of us our communities are our home and, while it may be tough, we still love it. I won't feel comfortable in an affluent neighborhood with a bunch of people who don't look like me. I don't want to have to drive an hour to find a place that can cook me some legit arroz con pollo or soul food.

We're all in this because we want to serve others and improve the health of our country/world, right? Because it seems that a lot of people on here want to become physicians for some sort of societal validation or as a reward for getting the highest score in organic chemistry.

There are several points I'd like to counter here, not that I am disagreeing with you but perhaps as we are from seemingly different(?) backgrounds, some things may occur to me where they do not occur to you, and vice versa - such is the role of SDN...the intelligencia of the pre-med realm, dare I say it.

While I was citing those examples of people I know, they may be anecdotal to you, but nonetheless very real to me. I am not saying that all who are URM are guilty of this, but I think that if you are going to bill yourself as URM, you better damn well have a reason (i.e., your mission as a medical school applicant better be in line with that of why schools have implemented these programs) - and as you mention, someone who is trying to play the system may not get as far as they think they will - a 1/4th Honduran applicant that does not speak spanish with no demonstrated involvement in the Latino community may get the interview, but may not get the acceptance. However, perhaps I should have been clearer to point out, that the division isn't at the level of acceptance, but rather at the level of interview. Now, while my grades aren't particularly stellar in undergrad, I did make an acaemic comeback after I graduated from college. In addition, my extracurricular repetoire can be described as spectacular - lots of unique EC's, long-term volunteer involvement, leadership, research, and so on and so forth. I know people with less, who have been accepted to schools that I was flat out rejected from - we can call it "not fitting in the mission of the school" but you and I both know that most medical schools have a vaguely defined mission that often includes buzzwords, so to say I was a lesser fit than those who were accepted, is frankly, a load of bull. Nevermind that they were accepted, but they were invited for an interview where I was rejected almost immediately. I should mention that I have been accepted to perhaps one of my top 10 personal choice MD schools, so I am happy with how my application cycle turned out - I am satisfied. Might I have been happier with an acceptance to a better school? Sure, but am I bitter in any way shape or form? Absolutely not. So the dividing line isn't at the level of acceptance, but rather it can be said that this line is at the level of who to invite for an interview. So, the 1/4 Honduran applicant that doesn't speak spanish and can be outed by an interviewer on interview day might not get accepted, but that doesn't change the fact that they took potentially my (or some other low-stat ORM) seat at the interview. Again, I am not complaining about this - I am just making an observation.

Perhaps you can regard my earlier comments about not wanting to return to 'the community' or the notion of a URM 'faking it until they make it' more as a cautionary tale to the general body of SDN users.

I liked your joke about Organic Chemistry, but I think you raise a good point when you say "We're all in this because we want to serve others and improve the health of our country/world, right? Because it seems that a lot of people on here want to become physicians for some sort of societal validation"

I will be forthright in saying that my motivations for pursuing medicine are twofold, and I don't care if anyone here say's its cliche - because the whole idea of 'cliche' in medical school admissions is an effort to try and stand out more. I've stood out, I've gotten my acceptance, I've over sentimentalized all of my beliefs. Now for a dose of 'inconvenient truth' - I like Science. The human form has always fascinated me. I also like helping people, reaching out, helping other solve problems. Medicine rolls both of these together, and hey would you look at that - if you play your cards right, you can get a nice fat check for doing what you love. Now, this is of course a gross oversimplification of my motivations, and money is the absolute final piece in the puzzle, and while it is not the most important piece in the puzzle, it is nonetheless significant. I do think that after dedicating nearly 15 years (and in most cases, the majority of your independent youth) it is not villainous in anyway to want to enjoy a proverbial high life for that sacrifice. I think most (not just on SDN, and not the pre-med population - but people at the other end of the training) would tend to agree. In fact, my passion is in an IM subspecialty - both the scientific aspects and the impact I can have on society practicing in that field - but only recently did I learn it is a lucrative specialty. It's really refreshing to know that I can be rewarded handsomely in the end for something I was only interested in for purposes of intellectual and professional fulfillment.

I am not one for philosophical debate, so I won't remark on what you have said about morality. (It's hard enough to know what the right thing to do these days is anyway)

 

[MangoPlant]

I am ORM, so I can say this without bias.

People who are Latino or African American are disadvantaged in society. It's intrinsic prejudice that keeps the majority of these communities in poverty. There's no genetic difference between people of different races, so why is there such a huge gap? It's institutional, societal discrimination that just about all of us (on some degree) have.

I understand what you are saying, but for the people in society that are racist against Latino and African-Americans, are there not also people that are racist against Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, White, Pakistani, and just about every other ethnicity as well?

 

[MDforMee]

The way I see it, people are getting their asses handed to them by Chinese kids that study for 8 hours a day, and they're bitter about it.

I'm bitter, sure. I went to UCLA and had to be one of 2 white people in a class of 60 Chinese kids competing for grades. When I finally figured out that I couldn't have a life and had to live on loans by quitting my jobs to study 5 hours+ a day to get a 3.7, I came to the realization I mentioned, above.

All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles.

 

[baboxxyun]

I never understood this argument either. If the argument is that URMs are disadvantaged because they are more likely to be in undeserved areas, why not just give advantages for low socioeconomic-status instead of giving an advantage based on ethnicity. By assuming that because an applicant is URM he/she is more likely to have lived in an undeserved environment, the poor non-URMs who probably had the same oppurtunities as the poor-URMs are heavily disfavored. Seems unfair for non-URMs who grew up in just as bad neighborhoods. Again, I don't think that this is the reason for giving URM special consideration in current times, simply because it does not make sense. I'd like to believe the theory someone else posted earlier, that URMs are given special consideration because there are so few that apply. Looking at the statistics seems to back up the claim that there are incredibly few URMs that apply but it does not seem fair when Asians are compared with whites, because there are fewer Asians that apply yet they are also given special consideration except in a negative way.

It probably has to do with how all of this got started and how it escalated. For instance, in court, it is much easier to argue with race than saying "oh this guy just doesn't know better because of the way he grew up." No case is going to get the attention of the media if it says "underserved guy didn't get in to X school." It will if it says "black guy rejected from X school." As numerous cases like these compiled throughout the years, so did the idea of "race" being an influential factor.

As for the statistics about asians, in order to avoid the reputation of being "discriminatory," an institution should mirror the population so that it should not seem to be selective or biased in anyway.
Asians, particularly, are an outlier. Asians make up a rather small % of the population, but over represented in areas of higher education. To put it simply, the % of asians could easily be dropped to mirror the population as % of URM increase. I guess, in a way, the Asian population is a victim of its own success. At least, this is what I'm making out the statistical data to be. But whether or not an institution really does "cut corners" is extremely debatable, and just because a particular set of data implies correlation, does not mean actual causation.


However, I still do not believe something as trivial as race could make or break an application.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

The way I see it, people are getting their asses handed to them by Chinese kids that study for 8 hours a day, and they're bitter about it.

I'm bitter, sure. I went to UCLA and had to be one of 2 white people in a class of 60 Chinese kids competing for grades. When I finally figured out that I couldn't have a life and had to live on loans by quitting my jobs to study 5 hours+ a day to get a 3.7, I came to the realization I mentioned, above.

All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, things of that nature).

I suspect that these unbecoming qualities of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles.

My problem is that you (and others on this thread) are shockingly prejudiced. It seems like it's okay to openly stereotype Asians. Is it okay to say that Irish people are drunks, Polish people are dumb, or black people are violent criminals? These racist statements would incense most of you here. but it's okay to talk about how "all Chinese people" hate whites, cheat on their homework, don't care about patients, etc. Do you see the hypocrisy here????

In 20 years people will look back and be appalled by this racism towards Asians. Just like 20 years ago, gay people were ridiculed, and 60 years ago, blacks were oppressed and shunned.

 

[MDforMee]

My problem is that you (and others on this thread) are shockingly prejudiced. It seems like it's okay to openly stereotype Asians. Is it okay to say that Irish people are drunks, Polish people are dumb, or black people are violent criminals? These racist statements would incense most of you here. but it's okay to talk about how "all Chinese people" hate whites, cheat on their homework, don't care about patients, etc. Do you see the hypocrisy here????

In 20 years people will look back and be appalled by this racism towards Asians. Just like 20 years ago, gay people were ridiculed, and 60 years ago, blacks were oppressed and shunned.

Actually, I'm right. Deal with it.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Actually, I'm right. Deal with it.

I rest my case. Wow.

 

[MDforMee]

I rest my case. Wow.

I love it how people act offended when their card gets pulled.

I've got news for you: being a good physician isn't about trying to make money while distancing yourself from the real world.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I love it how people act offended when their card gets pulled.

I've got news for you: being a good physician isn't about trying to make money while distancing yourself from the real world.

Keep talking, you are proving my point.

 

[GM2006]

I have a question! Is there any way medical schools can actually verify your ethnicity? I heard of someone who put their ethnicity as 'hispanic' on their AMCAS application even though they were not. They received A LOT of interviews and acceptances at great programs despite having a less than average MCAT score and a semi-decent GPA. It's frustrating how people can get away with that and take away seats from other candidates who are truly deserving! UGH.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Tell that to Abigail Fisher: http://gawker.com/5991588/the-white...n-was-too-dumb-to-get-into-her-chosen-college

Don't point the finger, pull the thumb.

Strong use of a Gawker article as evidence for something.

This webinar would probably be a better source of information about how the Fisher decision affects medical school admissions.