Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

[Lucca]

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Not 100% sure on this, maybe LizzyM or Goro can chime in, but medical schools do NOT have to report SES diversity to LCME (med school accreditation board). How many med-schools are going to be interested in building economic diversity if they don't even have to report it?

From the document I already linked:

"The most effective use of the AAMC SES EO indicators is for admissions committees to consider them,
along with all other factors listed above, when screening applicants for interviews. Interviews afford not
only an opportunity to determine if an applicant fits the mission and contributes to the diversity interests
of the school, they also afford an opportunity to explore in more detail other factors, such as SES, that
may be considered when rendering admissions decisions. The correlation observed between SES
indicators and mean MCAT scores describes one such factor. However, since many factors contribute to
MCAT performance, these data should not be construed as a simple tool for comparing MCAT scores of
applicants within an SES group. To do so would be unfair and possibly counterproductive to efforts to
diversify a medical school class. Instead, admissions committees should apply their awareness of this
correlation to a holistic review of each applicant that takes this and many other factors into consideration
when evaluating each applicant. Consideration of these factors might be in the context of answers to the
following questions:
• What further insight might be gained about an applicant’s outlook and perceptions by using this
information?
• How does the self-declaration of disadvantaged status, or absence thereof, align with what is
written in the essay, described in life experiences, and reported by FAP, EO, and Pell Grant
indicators?
• Did this applicant have access to comparable educational opportunities, finances, and guidance
that other applicants had when preparing for medical school?
• Is it reasonable to expect this applicant to perform as well as other applicants on either the
MCAT or other standardized exams? "

It doesn't matter if they have to report it or not, considering these are guidelines outlined by the AAMC it is in their best interest to follow them since they provide a compelling argument as to why these guidelines would further the success of the schools they volunteered to committee for.

 

[Lucca]

I cannot believe we are still discussing this point. People should be judged as INDIVIDUALS, not as members of a specific RACE.

Have you been discussing this at such length you've already forgotten the part where everyone clearly established how and why there are racial divisions in admissions and why they are in the service of the greater public interest?!?

Here's a question: If this whole row is about being racist and what not, why are the largely Asian and White powers-that-be (the AAMC) actively campaigning against their own race. Solution: They aren't.

 

[Reckoner]

I'm going to quote myself here, because I don't think GoodGuyGregory read this far back in the thread (not trying to flame you, just guessing based on previous comments), and others seem to have completely ignored this point. With regards to adcoms holding Asians to "a higher bar":

I will repeat it again. The numbers show that Asians are held to a higher standard in admissions, compared to ALL other groups.

Except this isn't what the data show. This is conjecture. The data show slightly lower rates of admission at different mcat/gpa combinations for Asians. As many have pointed out, this could be due to several reasons (sample size at certain data points, difference in ECs, racism against Asians, etc) Until you show me an experiment where identical applicants have a race randomly assigned to them before applying to medical schools and achieve different outcomes, you can't make this claim with confidence.

It's possible that there is discrimination going on here, but it's equally possible that the whole effect is due to myriad other factors.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Not 100% sure on this, maybe LizzyM or Goro can chime in, but medical schools do NOT have to report SES diversity to LCME (med school accreditation board). How many med-schools are going to be interested in building economic diversity if they don't even have to report it?

So you think that medical schools are only interested in the statistics that they have to report to LCME? So schools don't care about increasing different forms of diversity that aren't published (SES, LGBT, Religious, etc.) because they don't have to? I have been to several schools that boast about their diversity on a much higher level than racial or ethnic. They want diversity in all of its realms represented in their medical school class for a REAL LIFE purpose - educating the future physicians of this country.

It isn't just some game to them so that they can report higher URM numbers. They want diversity among their class to train physicians to treat a DIVERSE country. I believe that most Adcoms would continue to want to increase the diversity even if the statistics weren't published. Anecdotal but I know someone at a Top 5 school that has told me that low SES White students most definitely outnumber URMs in their class. Schools definitely care about SES diversity already.

Everything you reported on your AMCAS is linked to you for statistical purposes for the AAMC. If a school accepts you then your stats go into all of the reports the AAMC publishes. Even if they aren't reported to US News, the AAMC most definitely still has access to all of them.

This isn't some giant conspiracy.

 

[GoodGuyGregory]

Please find the post where I said ORMs should have a higher bar set for them. They have a higher bar set for them because competition amongst themselves is fiercer, it's a natural economic outcome.

Also this.

Average Asian Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average White Matriculant GPA: 3.71

Average Asian Matriculant MCAT: 32.5
Average White Matriculant GPA: 31.6

OMG THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT EVEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT AND IM NOT EVEN EXAGGERATING BECAUSE THEY ARE LITERALLY WAY LESS THAN ONE STANDARD DEVIATION FROM EACH OTHER. The conversation about ORM vs. white is so moot, I can't even.

If you looked back at the thread someone posted different stats, which is what I was referring to. To be fair though, I don't know what his source was.

How does that make sense?

First of all, ORM is a bs term, just come out with it and say Asian. Now to my actual point: if you don't get penalized for being white or Asian, then why are acceptance rates for Asians noticeably lower than for whites at the same grades/scores? I'm inclined to say that if you're black or Hispanic (or Native American) then you will be aided by that, that if you're white then it will be neutral, but if you're Asian, you will be penalized.

GPA/MCAT.....White.....Asian
3.50/30.............48%.......42%
3.69/30..............67%.......63%
3.89/30.............79%........76%
3.50/35.............73%........65%
3.69/35.............84%........81%
3.89/35.............91%........90%

In fact, I took an extra step and superimposed the images. Inverted color (with invert key too) is Asian odds. All colored lines that don't show up in the key are from the white odds graph.

As you can see, there are several things to note:

• At a 3.30 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
• At a 3.50 GPA, being Asian will give a large penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
• At a 3.69 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores
• At a 3.89 GPA, being Asian will give a slight penalty over being white at all MCAT scores until after 38, after which it gives a minuscule advantage

Seeing all these occurrences when being Asian is a hindrance and considering the average GPA/MCAT to get into med school are around 3.6/30, and that most people are around there, being Asian is definitely penalized.

I'm curious, what race are you?

 

[Lucca]

If you looked back at the thread someone posted different stats, which is what I was referring to. To be fair though, I don't know what his source was.

I believe his data is gathered from the acceptance data that was separately collected by SDN. You can take a gander at those numbers whenever on the Chances sub-forum I believe (as well as the Underrepresented in Healthcare sub-forum that is INCREDIBLY empty, by the way, further highlighting how difficult it is for most minorities to find their way to high quality educational resources such as SDN) @Reckoner did a great job at throwing a possible solvent at this discrepancy. I don't want to dig for his post but he found that something like 1/3 of Asian applicants are from California which is historically a very difficult state for medical admissions and that alone would curb the total acceptance rate in this way. This is a wonderful explanation considering that, as a whole, there is no substantial difference between the average White and the average Asian matriculant.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Please find the post where I said ORMs should have a higher bar set for them. They have a higher bar set for them because competition amongst themselves is fiercer, it's a natural economic outcome.

Also this.

Average Asian Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average White Matriculant GPA: 3.71

Average Asian Matriculant MCAT: 32.5
Average White Matriculant GPA: 31.6

OMG THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT EVEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT AND IM NOT EVEN EXAGGERATING BECAUSE THEY ARE LITERALLY WAY LESS THAN ONE STANDARD DEVIATION FROM EACH OTHER. The conversation about ORM vs. white is so moot, I can't even.

This table settles the battle. Seriously. Look at that link.

Average Asian Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average White Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average No Race Response Matriculant GPA: 3.72

Average Asian Matriculant MCAT: 32.5
Average White Matriculant MCAT: 31.6
Average No Race Response Matriculant MCAT: 32.6



You would be better off reporting that you were Asian than if you put No Race because the stats are the highest in the No Race Response category than any other category other than "foreign".

This answers OP's original question. /thread

 

[Lucca]

This table settles the battle. Seriously. Look at that link.

Average Asian Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average White Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average No Race Response Matriculant GPA: 3.72

Average Asian Matriculant MCAT: 32.5
Average White Matriculant MCAT: 31.6
Average No Race Response Matriculant MCAT: 32.6



You would be better off reporting that you were Asian than if you put No Race because the stats are the highest in the No Race Response category than any other category other than "foreign".

This answers OP's original question. /thread

I didn't even bother to take a look at that area, well done @ChemEngMD !

And to all a good night.

 

[nemo123]

Wow, I go on a half a week hiatus from SDN and this thread exploded...

 

[SunsFun]

Wow. This is just too much to read for me now. I think there one thing I want to mention before the lock.

Different minorities face different kind of stereotypes. Most are usually negative but some are positive. For example we all know the good old "black people are good at sports while Asians are good at math" from high school. These type of stereotypes have very insidious effect on performance due to phenomenon psychologists like to call self-fulfilling prophecy. When people assume you're good at math/science/school/etc you tend to be good at it, if they assume you aren't that good at it, you tend to perform worse than average in those categories.

To me this type of hardship for some groups is a powerful explanation of the achievement gap between races that is negligible in elementary school yet becomes extremely pronounced by the end of high school. This assumes controlling for things like SES, school quality, etc.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

To OP and others, I feel for you, I really do. I think that in the short term, there is nothing you can do to affect your applications, especially with regards to this issue. My advice is to play it to the best of your strengths and not your weaknesses. The impact of highlighting your strengths will far outshine anything else and any other approach.

As far as quotas, URMs, etc. the system in place has a purpose, and that is to level the playing field for the disadvantaged minorities that have suffered over decades, if not longer, of being unable to achieve in a system that is stacked against them. The hope is that it plays out correctly in the end.

The census projects asians and latinos to be the fastest growing minority group in the next 40 or so years. However, the growth projects asians to go from 5% to 10% of the total population and latinos from 16% to 30%. White (non-hispanic) is expected to shrink from 64% to 46%. African americans to be stable at ~13%. This means that adcoms, et al have LOTS of leeway on how to work with their numbers.

Regarding asians being "well off" from an SES point of view, the problem is bigger than just education level, take a look at this which shows more poverty DESPITE higher levels of education:

What I suspect the case is, is an inverse bell curve with really extreme outliers (of very well off and very poor asians) and not much in the middle.

Regarding white privilege, it's really a lot of things that define it, sure whites dont have to worry about answering to the question of whether their jobs, acceptances, or whatever are due to their race (or worry if their peers suspect this or not). Whites also do not have to worry about speaking as a representative for their whole race, in social situations or worry about being under suspicion of crime. But probably the best privilege is shown in pay scale:

I would gather that the immigrant group that benefits the most from the current state in america are immigrant whites, even more so than multigenerational anything-else.

 

[XmedBarney]

Please find the post where I said ORMs should have a higher bar set for them. They have a higher bar set for them because competition amongst themselves is fiercer, it's a natural economic outcome.

Also this.

Average Asian Matriculant GPA: 3.71
Average White Matriculant GPA: 3.71

Average Asian Matriculant MCAT: 32.5
Average White Matriculant GPA: 31.6

OMG THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT EVEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT AND IM NOT EVEN EXAGGERATING BECAUSE THEY ARE LITERALLY WAY LESS THAN ONE STANDARD DEVIATION FROM EACH OTHER. The conversation about ORM vs. white is so moot, I can't even.

OMG!! YOU ARE USING STATISTICS INCORRECTLY!

WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED?

Admissions percentages nothing to do with matriculant statistics, if you admit 1 Martian out of 10 Martian Applicants and 9 Earthling out of 10, just because the matriculants have the same STATS!!! doesn't mean that they were treated equally for admissions. I don't see why you find this sooooo hard to understand. I have graphed the difference in admission rates a few pages back, and it clearly shows that Whites have a higher rate of admission for the same MCAT value. OMG!


Also this:

They have a higher bar set for them because competition amongst themselves is fiercer, it's a natural economic outcome.

It's hard for Asians to digest the fact that they have fight like hungry dogs for a few morsels that people deign to throw their way. What you just said, isn't that they will lose a few seats to URM's, you are saying you Asians can only have this much of the pie, go over there and fight over it. It's this attitude that's really difficult to swallow.

 

[taffer]

Haha this cat did not just try and straight splain to me that sexuality is complicated.

View attachment 178047

I think gumdrops was simply trying to further specify what he/she meant by the term "sexuality", seeing as how you interpreted it to mean "sexual acts". No need to be so sensitive, friend. ; )

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM I don't think it's fair to call MangoPlant racist. Logically, a group admitted with a lower academic score may have a higher chance of ultimately dropping out. Perhaps you can show me literature otherwise, but I generally thought MCATs predicted matriculation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23478635

Why address a "group" as being at higher risk of dropping out due to their group membership when the factors that contribute to dropping out (low MCAT and low SES) are more prevalent in that group and may explain the higher probability of dropping out.? To me, suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist. Differences by race are confounded by SES and academic achievement. Correct for those in the analysis and you may find that differences are ameliorated, perhaps to the point where there is no difference by race after controlling for academic acheievement and SES.

 

[touchpause13]

I guess this is where people's standards of what defines "personal" comes into play. I'd be very embarrassed if a doctor wanted to talk to me about my sexual life and opened by sharing about theirs.

Actually you did bring up sex acts. Right here. As well as saying that I'd be a crap clinician and freaking out about gaydar. So yeah I am offended.

 

[NontradCA]

We're talking about the fact that Latinos/Blacks/Asians are all minorities yet Latinos/Blacks are held to lower standards than whites wheras Asians are held to higher standards.

Well let's look at this logically. The standard of education for URMs are low starting from pre-k and all through high school. So if the primary education standard is lower shouldn't the secondary education accommodate this?

 

[MangoPlant]

Well let's look at this logically. The standard of education for URMs are low starting from pre-k and all through high school. So if the primary education standard is lower shouldn't the secondary education accommodate this?

Hold up now, is the standard of education lower for URMs because they are black/latino or is it lower because they disproportionately live in bad neighborhoods? Pretty sure it's not the color of a person's skin that decides their standard of education. It's where they live, their SES, and the school they attend.

 

[NontradCA]

Hold up now, is the standard of education lower for URMs because they are black/latino or is it lower because they disproportionately live in bad neighborhoods? Pretty sure it's not the color of a person's skin that decides their standard of education. It's where they live, their SES, and the school they attend.

Yes it is because of the skin color. You can sugarcoat anything the way you want, but the fact is the way Americans view black people is akin to the way they viewed them during slavery. Whereas, it used to be that to be black was to be a slave, now it means that to be black is to be poor. But I digress, the issue IS becoming less and less about race (despite the media and politicians making white people believe there's still a strong middle class). Let me semi quote Nas in saying that "no matter your skin color everybody ..."

 

[plumazul]

Why address a "group" as being at higher risk of dropping out due to their group membership when the factors that contribute to dropping out (low MCAT and low SES) are more prevalent in that group and may explain the higher probability of dropping out.? To me, suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist. Differences by race are confounded by SES and academic achievement. Correct for those in the analysis and you may find that differences are ameliorated, perhaps to the point where there is no difference by race after controlling for academic acheievement and SES.

Isn't that the very definition of "racist"?

 

[histidine]

Certain "groups" are not well prepared?? Is it only me or, do others see that as a racist comment?

Why address a "group" as being at higher risk of dropping out due to their group membership when the factors that contribute to dropping out (low MCAT and low SES) are more prevalent in that group and may explain the higher probability of dropping out.? To me, suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist. Differences by race are confounded by SES and academic achievement. Correct for those in the analysis and you may find that differences are ameliorated, perhaps to the point where there is no difference by race after controlling for academic acheievement and SES.

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves. That could easily explain a 3% difference in admission between white and Asian applicants.

I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

It's not okay to generalize certain groups, but it's okay to generalize asians?

In regards to your comment about asians being more likely to be pushed into medicine, I can use the same logic as comment #2 and say that there is no difference in race after controlling for parental and social influences.

 

[MangoPlant]

Isn't that the very definition of "racist"?

But suggesting that one racial group will face more racism or have more of its people grow up in tough neighborhoods is not racist?

 

[MangoPlant]

Yes it is because of the skin color. You can sugarcoat anything the way you want, but the fact is the way Americans view black people is akin to the way they viewed them during slavery. Whereas, it used to be that to be black was to be a slave, now it means that to be black is to be poor. But I digress, the issue IS becoming less and less about race (despite the media and politicians making white people believe there's still a strong middle class). Let me semi quote Nas in saying that "no matter your skin color everybody ..."

Argument: Latinos and Blacks are poor!
Response: So then why not use SES which would still benefit Latinos and Blacks and poor asians?

Argument: Latinos and Blacks have to face racism!
Response: Do Asians also not?

Asians are a minority, face racism, and poor Asians exist too. Why do they need higher numbers to get in than whites?

 

[touchpause13]

If you have LizzyM problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but pissin off an adcom ain't one.

 

[touchpause13]

You're married to a guy though right? That would definitely make straight doctors less judgemental regardless of your orientation.

You'd be surprised. ..

 

[plumazul]

But suggesting that one racial group will face more racism or have more of its people grow up in tough neighborhoods is not racist?

What? It's called reality, but the key here is this current reality can be changed.

 

[histidine]

What? It's called reality, but the key here it this current reality can be changed.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I just briefly skimmed the past comments), but it didn't seem like his comment had racist undertones. He wasn't saying "some ethnic groups can't handle medical school so we shouldn't accept them" It is reality that certain minorities are more likely to drop out (due to a myriad of confounding factors), and this problem can and should be changed. https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf http://jsnma.org/2011/02/minority-attrition-and-burnout-among-us-medical-students/

 

[MDforMee]

Have you even read the thread? No arguments that "shut down" this thread have been presented. Both sides have presented tough arguments and it is clear that no side has shut down the other side. Furthermore, this thread was intended to be about ORM disadvantage, not about URM advantage. Lastly, if you are going to ramble about how posters on SDN should not be allowed to talk about ORM/URM because you feel uncomfortable about those topics, please ignore this thread.

I shut the thread down when I cited the statistics being used to support it's main point; namely, that the term "White" contains people of Middle Eastern descent, and that without knowing the admissions data for Middle Eastern applicants, arguing here is useless.

The fact that people are still arguing here, basically accusing whites of racism against asians even when there are admissions policies in place to increase URMs at the expense of ORMs is sickening; I've seen a complete disregard for social etiquette and a slew of self-centered "I'm what's important" anecdotes from a few embittered people in response to something that they know is true, which is that asian parents DO pressure their kids to go into medicine. Additionally, the high numbers of foreign born asians that speak English as a second language are held to a de facto higher standard for admissions due to immigration law, irrespective of the fact that they're oftentimes lacking the skills they need to practice in the United States by being able to treat diverse patient sets; this alone should have been enough to politely end the thread on page 2.

Long story short, what this thread amounts to is what I've consistently alluded to in all of my posts, which is that basic empathy and social concern is lacking in grade robots. Becoming a physician is about learning compassion, how to work together, and to develop a selfless mentality; it's not about stepping over other people and blaming others for why you're weeded out during interviews when you show your true colors.

With that, I'm leaving this thread for good. I hope you've all enjoyed my contributions.

 

[Lucca]

OMG!! YOU ARE USING STATISTICS INCORRECTLY!

WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED?

Admissions percentages nothing to do with matriculant statistics, if you admit 1 Martian out of 10 Martian Applicants and 9 Earthling out of 10, just because the matriculants have the same STATS!!! doesn't mean that they were treated equally for admissions. I don't see why you find this sooooo hard to understand. I have graphed the difference in admission rates a few pages back, and it clearly shows that Whites have a higher rate of admission for the same MCAT value. OMG!


Also this:

They have a higher bar set for them because competition amongst themselves is fiercer, it's a natural economic outcome.

It's hard for Asians to digest the fact that they have fight like hungry dogs for a few morsels that people deign to throw their way. What you just said, isn't that they will lose a few seats to URM's, you are saying you Asians can only have this much of the pie, go over there and fight over it. It's this attitude that's really difficult to swallow.

Sigh. Reckoner's analysis a few pages back already corrected for your "martian, earthling" by citing that 1/3 of asian applicants come from California schools.
Pulling from AAMC data already posted on this thread:

Total Number of Asian Applicants in 2012: 9,544
Total Number of Asian Matriculants in 2012: 4,121
Asian Acceptance Rate: 43.1%

Total Number of White Applicants in 2012: 26,649
Total Number of White Matriculants in 2012: 12,134
White Acceptance Rate: 45.5%

Number of Asian Applicants from the state of California: 2,168
As a percentage of Asian applicant population: 22.7%

Number of White Applicants from the state of California: 1,895
As a percentage of White applicant population: 7.1%

Number of Asian Matriculants from the state of California: 891
As a percentage of Asian applicant from California population, acceptance rate: 41.1%

Number of White Matriculants from the state of California: 817
As a percentage of White applicants from California population, acceptance rate: 43.1%

Conclusion I: Applicants from the state of California face a uniform 2% drop in admission rates due to the nature of medical admission in the state.
Hypothesis: A dramatically larger percentage of the asian population applies from the state of California when compared to White applicants (with White applicant numbers used as a "neutral" number since they are neither URM or ORM - discounting SES advantages, etc.) and thus the "California skew" has a greater effect on the Asian population than the White population.
Fact: Asian matriculants comprise 21.1% of the total matriculant pool in spite of representing only 5.1% of the US population (US Census Bureau, 2013)
Fact: The average matriculating and applying statistics (MCAT /GPA /LizzyM Score) for Asians and Whites are nearly identical.

Conclusion II: The idea that there is a higher bar set for Asian applicants is a myth, a puff of smoke created by statistics and the given knowledge that Asians are over represented by a factor of 4 in the medical school population. Furthermore, the AAMC paper describing EO ratings highlights that only 30% of Asians are EO-1 or EO-2, the most disadvantaged socio-economic groups; consequently, less Asians will be considered for 'admission boosts' due to SES than members of other ethnic groups. The AAMC paper I linked last night, the position of Adcoms on this thread and this forum at large, and the available position of the AAMC endorses the fact that SES is indeed used as a factor in admissions when considering an applicant's disadvantage.

In case none of that sunk in, your Martian vs. Earthling comparison is void because the discrepancy is not 1 in 10 versus 9 in 10. It's 4.31 in 10 versus 4.5 in 10. The average Asian applicant, barring residence in California, should be able to gain admission into medical school with the same LizzyM (Mcat +GPA multiplier) score as a white applicant - ALL OF THIS IN SPITE OF BEING OVER REPRESENTED BY A FACTOR OF 4. In fact, considering the gross over representation of Asians in medical school, we can conclude that they remain over-represented thanks to the high-achieving history of their applicant pool - suggesting a highly meritocratic element to admissions that trumps the underlying mission to better represent the US population. No one is "fighting for scraps" or anything as dramatic as you said. There are no quotas ( I already explained the difference between quotas and admission policies in my first post on this thread and I don't expect to have to repeat myself).

If you find the idea of internal competition in an economically competitive system hard to stomach then I would leave the US right now because there's this thing called capitalism you see and it basically permeates every single part of American culture. However, if you want to continue to zealously enforce this "scrap" imagery, consider the mass of White and URM applicants sitting by the way-side watching 5% of the population gobble up 21% of available medical school seats. I don't mean for that last argument to be serious, mind you, because it isn't. Because the image you made wasn't serious to begin with. Because this whole debate is bollocks, and all solvents have been provided for all of your arguments.

 

[ninjaman22]

So who are you guys rooting for in the Super Bowl?!

 

[histidine]

I shut the thread down when I cited the statistics being used to support it's main point; namely, that the term "White" contains people of Middle Eastern descent, and that without knowing the admissions data for Middle Eastern applicants, arguing here is useless.

The fact that people are still arguing here, basically accusing whites of racism against asians even when there are admissions policies in place to increase URMs at the expense of ORMs is sickening; I've seen a complete disregard for social etiquette and a slew of self-centered "I'm what's important" anecdotes from a few embittered people in response to something that they know is true, which is that asian parents DO pressure their kids to go into medicine. Additionally, the high numbers of foreign born asians that speak English as a second language are held to a de facto higher standard for admissions due to immigration law, irrespective of the fact that they're oftentimes lacking the skills they need to practice in the United States by being able to treat diverse patient sets; this alone should have been enough to politely end the thread on page 2.

Long story short, what this thread amounts to is what I've consistently alluded to in all of my posts, which is that basic empathy and social concern is lacking in grade robots. Becoming a physician is about learning compassion, how to work together, and to develop a selfless mentality; it's not about stepping over other people and blaming others for why you're weeded out during interviews when you show your true colors.

With that, I'm leaving this thread for good. I hope you've all enjoyed my contributions.

Your anecdote about there being "many persians" applying to med school was not enough to shut down the thread.

No one is saying there are white racist boogeyman out there conspiring against asians.

There are a lot of anecdotal hypotheses about why the standard is higher for asians, but nothing evidence-based enough to conclusively end the thread.

Much of these 10 pages have been useless bickering and unsubstantiated claims, but there have been a lot of great posts on the subject of race in medicine.

 

[Reckoner]

Sigh. Reckoner's analysis a few pages back already corrected for your "martian, earthling" by citing that 1/3 of asian applicants come from California schools.
Pulling from AAMC data already posted on this thread:

I do just want to add that what I showed isn't necessarily conclusive, and it would be really helpful to see a breakdown of applicants and matriculants in each state by GPA, MCAT, and race (does this exist?).

In case none of that sunk in, your Martian vs. Earthling comparison is void because the discrepancy is not 1 in 10 versus 9 in 10. It's 4.31 in 10 versus 4.5 in 10. The average Asian applicant, barring residence in California, should be able to gain admission into medical school with the same LizzyM (Mcat +GPA multiplier) score as a white applicant - ALL OF THIS IN SPITE OF BEING OVER REPRESENTED BY A FACTOR OF 4. In fact, considering the gross over representation of Asians in medical school, we can conclude that they remain over-represented thanks to the high-achieving history of their applicant pool - suggesting a highly meritocratic element to admissions that trumps the underlying mission to better represent the US population. No one is "fighting for scraps" or anything as dramatic as you said. There are no quotas ( I already explained the difference between quotas and admission policies in my first post on this thread and I don't expect to have to repeat myself).

This is a great point that I don't think got enough attention. Using @ichor's post from the first page, the GPA/MCAT combination with the biggest discrepancy is 3.5/35. And yet even at that point, the number of additional Asian acceptances needed to get the acceptance rate up to that of Whites at this range is only ~60 across the entire country. The percentages here aren't the whole story.

I shut the thread down when I cited the statistics being used to support it's main point; namely, that the term "White" contains people of Middle Eastern descent, and that without knowing the admissions data for Middle Eastern applicants, arguing here is useless.

Do Persians have some reputation as pre-med demigods? I don't understand what your point is.

 

[kyamh]

2. More interestingly -- how in god's name do you know the sexuality of your physician? As a professional, this is not something you typically share with patients. I have no idea if my doctor is gay or straight, and I don't care. And I would certainly never ask, nor would I expect him to tell me.

How about getting nagged by a male physician for YEARS, without fail, about how it really isn't responsible to be sexually active and not use birth control? Every time we have a nice conversation about how my lesbian lifestyle is all the birth control I need, then my physician proceeds to ask whether I am SURE that I won't be sleeping with men soon and whether I wouldn't feel more safe/responsible/on top of things if I was on the pill just in case....

Him: but what if you're at a frat party in Boston and things get out of hand?

lol

 

[ChemEngMD]

How about getting nagged by a male physician for YEARS, without fail, about how it really isn't responsible to be sexually active and not use birth control? Every time we have a nice conversation about how my lesbian lifestyle is all the birth control I need, then my physician proceeds to ask whether I am SURE that I won't be sleeping with men soon and whether I wouldn't feel more safe/responsible/on top of things if I was on the pill just in case....

Him: but what if you're at a frat party in Boston and things get out of hand?

lol

Didn't you know that your lesbian lifestyle is a choice? What if you change your mind!? 😉

🙄

 

[histidine]

How about getting nagged by a male physician for YEARS, without fail, about how it really isn't responsible to be sexually active and not use birth control? Every time we have a nice conversation about how my lesbian lifestyle is all the birth control I need, then my physician proceeds to ask whether I am SURE that I won't be sleeping with men soon and whether I wouldn't feel more safe/responsible/on top of things if I was on the pill just in case....

Him: but what if you're at a frat party in Boston and things get out of hand?

lol

Cocaine is a hell of a drug

 

[LizzyM]

It's not okay to generalize certain groups, but it's okay to generalize asians?

In regards to your comment about asians being more likely to be pushed into medicine, I can use the same logic as comment #2 and say that there is no difference in race after controlling for parental and social influences.

Note that I used the word "applicants" in describing some members of a group. I did not generalize to an entire group.

 

[Lucca]

I do just want to add that what I showed isn't necessarily conclusive, and it would be really helpful to see a breakdown of applicants and matriculants in each state by GPA, MCAT, and race (does this exist?).

This is a great point that I don't think got enough attention. Using @ichor's post from the first page, the GPA/MCAT combination with the biggest discrepancy is 3.5/35. And yet even at that point, the number of additional Asian acceptances needed to get the acceptance rate up to that of Whites at this range is only ~60 across the entire country. The percentages here aren't the whole story.


Do Persians have some reputation as pre-med demigods? I don't understand what your point is.

I understand the findings aren't conclusive but I'm trying to show that the gap is so small that it could be explained easily by it. The best we can do is try to aggregate the information and come up with assumptions using the available data.

MCAT/GPA by state:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321500/data/2012factstable20.pdf

MCAT/GPA by race:
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html
individual tables can be found at the link.

The best approach might be to take the average number of applicants of that race from that state as I did above and estimate their contribution to the mean MCAT/GPA of that state by separating every other ethnic group in the same way, etc, etc, iterating until you have accounted for 100% of that state's population. Of course, we have no way of discounting outliers from certain races except for the standard deviation. Really, it would be very messy.

 

[histidine]

Note that I used the word "applicants" in describing some members of a group. I did not generalize to an entire group.

A weak defense at best. There is not much of a difference between "Asians are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents than other races," and "Asian applicants are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents than applicants of other races."

 

[taffer]

How about getting nagged by a male physician for YEARS, without fail, about how it really isn't responsible to be sexually active and not use birth control? Every time we have a nice conversation about how my lesbian lifestyle is all the birth control I need, then my physician proceeds to ask whether I am SURE that I won't be sleeping with men soon and whether I wouldn't feel more safe/responsible/on top of things if I was on the pill just in case....

Him: but what if you're at a frat party in Boston and things get out of hand?

lol

At least you know he must care enough to worry about you. : ) If he is an older gentleman this is understandable. I feel like for the most part acceptance of differences in sexuality isn't a common thing for people that came before our generation, although it is improving.

 

[SunsFun]

A weak defense at best. There is not much of a difference between "Asians are often pushed into medicine by their parents," and "Asian applicants are often pushed into medicine by their parents."

Pushed wouldn't be the right word, IMO. But as an immigrant from overseas (not Asian though) I've been around enough Desi people to claim that their attitude towards becoming a doctor tends to be completely different from the mainstream. (Ours is too, to be honest, but we are counted as Caucasians so there is no point in trying to argue anything).

 

[histidine]

Pushed wouldn't be the right word, IMO. But as an immigrant from overseas (not Asian though) I've been around enough Desi people to claim that their attitude towards becoming a doctor tends to be completely different from the mainstream. (Ours is too, to be honest, but we are counted as Caucasians so there is no point in trying to argue anything).

My point was not to argue whether or not these stereotypes are true, but to point out hypocrisy. Other posters have stated asian stereotypes based on anecdotes with little backlash. But when someone generalizes URMs as being less prepared for medical school (which is backed up by AAMC research on attrition rates) the comment is called racist.

That research isn't meant to prove that URMs shouldn't be allowed into medical school. You must first identify a problem before you can come up with ways to solve it. In fact, the post that was deemed racist actually included a suggestion to remedy the higher attrition rate: "URM groups should be given more help starting in kindergarten."

2. Clearly certain groups are not as well prepared for medical school, on average, as other groups. This is proven by the fact that URM students have a much higher attrition rate than white or Asian students. With all due respect, your comment above comes across as obnoxious. There are very real discrepancies in the American educational system, which are evident in the fact that 1) A lower proportion of URM students apply to medical school compared to other groups, and 2) URM students have a much higher dropout rate. So yes, I would argue that URM groups should be "given more help starting in kindergarten."

 

[LizzyM]

A weak defense at best. There is not much of a difference between "Asians are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents than other races," and "Asian applicants are more likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents than applicants of other races."

What I said was:

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves.


I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.



There is a reason why there is a verbal section on the MCAT.

 

[histidine]

What I said was:




There is a reason why there is a verbal section on the MCAT.

Ouch. Well I took the MCAT and did fine on verbal. Guess I got lucky.

 

[aspiring20]

What I said was:

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves.


I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.



There is a reason why there is a verbal section on the MCAT.

i got a 15 on the verbal, and the contents of this whole thread are making my head spin.

a lot of good points are made, and i used to feel strongly about the whole race/gender in application thing...

but now, i've come to accept things that i can't change

 

[histidine]

What I said was:

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves.


I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.



There is a reason why there is a verbal section on the MCAT.

I think the snide comment on the verbal MCAT section was out of line.

I simplified your statement to emphasize how generalizing races in an applicant pool is not much different than generalizing races. I was not implying your original statement on Asians applicants more likely to be pushed into medicine than other applicant race groups was stereotyping or inappropriate. If that's what you've noticed, that's what you've noticed. I just don't understand how Quinn's comment was "racist," as it was merely a reflection of the AAMC report https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf. At worst his statement was poorly formed. Racist? Was he saying that URMs are fundamentally inferior? Definitively not.

Anyways, I thought this thread was pretty interesting. Lots of great posts, like the ChmEngMD bringing up http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/opinion/sunday/intelligence-and-the-stereotype-threat.html?_r=0
But if the discussion is just going to degrade into personal attacks, I'm out.

 

[Arayh]

"Affirmative Action," should be instituted, but it shouldn't be based on race/ethnicity.
It should be based on socioeconomic status and access to opportunities/education.

Race-blind admissions should be instituted, like they did at Caltech, but Affirmative Action should remain based upon socioeconomic class/opportunities available.

If an Asian kid worked hard and got a 3.2 GPA and a 29 MCAT due to his lack of support, i.e. had to work through college, didn't have all the preparation time or extra courses for the MCAT, had to get a job to help the family income, he should be given leeway based on Affirmative Action.

If an African American kid with a high socioeconomic status, and all the opportunities afforded to him, but he only got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action shouldn't apply here.

Similarly, if an African American kid with a low socioeconomic status, and no opportunities, had to work through college, support parents...etc, and got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action should work here and provide leeway.

Ultimately, race shouldn't be a factor in any selection process. Somebody's skin color, culture, or physical features should not play a factor in any admissions process. Everybody should be judged based on merit with equalizing factors for opportunity/socioeconomic class.

Affirmative action should apply only for socioeconomic class/status/educational opportunity.

I'm not sure how this would be implemented, or where the lines should be drawn for opportunity or socioeconomic class, but it would be a better equalizing factor than race or ethnicity for affirmative action.

You know what would solve this issue?
Ideal Communism. Give everybody the same opportunities, same socioeconomic classes/status, all government supplied/funded, then do away with affirmative action, and rank purely on merit, or whatever else you want to rate applicants on, whether its interviewing skills, verbal skills, or "human personal interaction skills."

 

[ChemEngMD]

"Affirmative Action," should be instituted, but it shouldn't be based on race/ethnicity.
It should be based on socioeconomic status and access to opportunities/education.

Race-blind admissions should be instituted, like they did at Caltech, but Affirmative Action should remain based upon socioeconomic class/opportunities available.

If an Asian kid worked hard and got a 3.2 GPA and a 29 MCAT due to his lack of support, i.e. had to work through college, didn't have all the preparation time or extra courses for the MCAT, had to get a job to help the family income, he should be given leeway based on Affirmative Action.

If an African American kid with a high socioeconomic status, and all the opportunities afforded to him, but he only got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action shouldn't apply here.

Similarly, if an African American kid with a low socioeconomic status, and no opportunities, had to work through college, support parents...etc, and got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action should work here and provide leeway.

Ultimately, race shouldn't be a factor in any selection process. Somebody's skin color, culture, or physical features should not play a factor in any admissions process. Everybody should be judged based on merit with equalizing factors for opportunity/socioeconomic class.

Affirmative action should apply only for socioeconomic class/status/educational opportunity.

I'm not sure how this would be implemented, or where the lines should be drawn for opportunity or socioeconomic class, but it would be a better equalizing factor than race or ethnicity for affirmative action.

You know what would solve this issue?
Ideal Communism. Give everybody the same opportunities, same socioeconomic classes/status, all government supplied/funded, then do away with affirmative action, and rank purely on merit, or whatever else you want to rate applicants on, whether its interviewing skills, verbal skills, or "human personal interaction skills."

Then the guy suggesting a Meritocratic Communist State showed up....

 

[Arayh]

Then the guy suggesting a Meritocratic Communist State showed up....

Better than a state where race is applied to selection processes. I think I'm correct in assuming that we don't all want to be blatant racists here and put any selection pressure on the color of someone's skin.

 

[Reckoner]

I think I'm correct in assuming that we don't all want to be blatant racists here and put any selection pressure on the color of someone's skin.

Hey I bet this point has been discussed in the 500 preceding posts.

 

[Arayh]

Hey I bet this point has been discussed in the 500 preceding posts.

Repetition is the key to learning/integration and memorization. You'll learn that in medical school whether you're memorizing parasympathetic nerve routes with the cranial nerves, or the antibiotic resistance genes in tuberculosis. Which reminds me of more stuff I need to memorize/integrate.

 

[SunsFun]

Repetition is the key to learning and memorization. You'll learn that in medical school whether you're memorizing parasympathetic nerve routes with the cranial nerves, or the antibiotic resistance genes in tuberculosis.

How do respond to an argument I brought up earlier about stereotyping and self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that people believe that blacks are bad at school makes it harder for the psychologically to do well in school while the opposite helps Asians do well in school.