Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

[ChemEngMD]

Better than a state where race is applied to selection processes. I think I'm correct in assuming that we don't all want to be blatant racists here and put any selection pressure on the color of someone's skin.

You're talking about a fairy tale. It would be amazing if everyone had the same SES status and there was no 250 year history of institutional racism and disenfranchisement in this country. Then we could have a true meritocracy based upon one's natural abilities, but that is not reality.

We have spoken ad nauseam about SES versus race and some people think that only SES should be taken into account, but many of us (I daresay most) believe that both SES and race should be taken into account for a variety of reasons. If you want to know those reasons then I suggest you read the first 10 pages.

Believe it or not, some people in this country are denied opportunities not because they have low SES but because they look different. Abstract concept, I know.

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[ChemEngMD]

I think I'll leave this right here....

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2013/features/a_house_divided042051.php

"Their findings were staggering: despite all of the gains of the previous quarter century, the median black family had only 8 percent of the household wealth of the median white family. The asset gap was still strikingly wide among middle-class and wealthy blacks, who, despite their high incomes, still had about a third the assets of comparable whites."

That's right ladies and gents, the study showed that middle-class and wealthy Blacks had 1/3 of the assets of their White counterparts. This is why SES cannot be used alone.

 

[AdrianVeidt]

"Affirmative Action," should be instituted, but it shouldn't be based on race/ethnicity.
It should be based on socioeconomic status and access to opportunities/education.

Race-blind admissions should be instituted, like they did at Caltech, but Affirmative Action should remain based upon socioeconomic class/opportunities available.

If an Asian kid worked hard and got a 3.2 GPA and a 29 MCAT due to his lack of support, i.e. had to work through college, didn't have all the preparation time or extra courses for the MCAT, had to get a job to help the family income, he should be given leeway based on Affirmative Action.

If an African American kid with a high socioeconomic status, and all the opportunities afforded to him, but he only got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action shouldn't apply here.

Similarly, if an African American kid with a low socioeconomic status, and no opportunities, had to work through college, support parents...etc, and got a 3.2 and 29 MCAT, affirmative action should work here and provide leeway.

Ultimately, race shouldn't be a factor in any selection process. Somebody's skin color, culture, or physical features should not play a factor in any admissions process. Everybody should be judged based on merit with equalizing factors for opportunity/socioeconomic class.

Affirmative action should apply only for socioeconomic class/status/educational opportunity.

I'm not sure how this would be implemented, or where the lines should be drawn for opportunity or socioeconomic class, but it would be a better equalizing factor than race or ethnicity for affirmative action.

You know what would solve this issue?
Ideal Communism. Give everybody the same opportunities, same socioeconomic classes/status, all government supplied/funded, then do away with affirmative action, and rank purely on merit, or whatever else you want to rate applicants on, whether its interviewing skills, verbal skills, or "human personal interaction skills."

You should just change your name to 'Aryan'.

 

[LizzyM]

I think I'll leave this right here....

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2013/features/a_house_divided042051.php

"Their findings were staggering: despite all of the gains of the previous quarter century, the median black family had only 8 percent of the household wealth of the median white family. The asset gap was still strikingly wide among middle-class and wealthy blacks, who, despite their high incomes, still had about a third the assets of comparable whites."

That's right ladies and gents, the study showed that middle-class and wealthy Blacks had 1/3 of the assets of their White counterparts. This is why SES cannot be used alone.

Fascinating. Very interesting to see the tie-in to the collapse of cities, and real estate, particularly in Detroit.

 

[MDforMee]

Your anecdote about there being "many persians" applying to med school was not enough to shut down the thread.

No one is saying there are white racist boogeyman out there conspiring against asians.

There are a lot of anecdotal hypotheses about why the standard is higher for asians, but nothing evidence-based enough to conclusively end the thread.

Much of these 10 pages have been useless bickering and unsubstantiated claims, but there have been a lot of great posts on the subject of race in medicine.

I didn't want to return to this thread, but since no one seems to believe that Middle Eastern medical students exist, California has:

1,349,111 Chinese

And
715,000 Arabs
500,000 Iranians (in Southern California, alone)
50,000 Afghans
20,000 Israelis
_______________
1,285,000 Middle Easterners. This doesn't include various other Cacuasians that aren't white.

Something like 80% of Asian medical students are actually Chinese. If there are as many Middle Easterners as Chinese (in California, alone) then sorry, we can't just neglect their presence if we're arguing about such a small percentage difference in Chinese vs. "White" admissions.

I'm curious, though, if it isn't the phantom racist white boogeyman that's discriminating against Asians, then who is it, exactly? Blacks? Hispanics? Jewish people? The elderly? Those with disabilities? Come on.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Chill, you want to know why fewer %-wise Asians get in? I would argue it is because those students are more likely - even with good MCATs and GPAs - to have poor applications in other regards.

I would be shocked if this is true (and I'm not Asian).

It is in my opinion ridiculous to assume someone that has a 3.8 GPA and a 34 MCAT is somehow going to drop the ball on research/volunteering/everything else. If anything, I think it'd be safe to bet that ON AVERAGE the people with higher MCATs/GPAs (regardless of race) will be very hard working and

 

[touchpause13]

I would be shocked if this is true (and I'm not Asian).

It is in my opinion ridiculous to assume someone that has a 3.8 GPA and a 34 MCAT is somehow going to drop the ball on research/volunteering/everything else. If anything, I think it'd be safe to bet that ON AVERAGE the people with higher MCATs/GPAs (regardless of race) will be very hard working and

Except goro and LizzyM both said they get applicants exactly like that.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Except goro and LizzyM both said they get applicants exactly like that.

Are you saying Goro or LizzyM said that on average people with higher MCATs and GPAs do not have better extra curricular activities than people with lower MCATs and GPAs? Or simply that there are examples of Asians who have a high GPA/MCAT score and still a weak application (which I think is of course true, and probably true for applicants of every race).

Or are you saying that LizzyM or Goro said that on average for a given MCAT and GPA score Asians have worse extracurricular activities than white/Black/Latino applicants? If so can you please show me the post (I'm not implying you're wrong, just would be surprised to hear they've said that and would like to read the post).

 

[touchpause13]

No I'm saying that LizzyM and Goro have said they have gotten grade robot applicants who have stellar GPAs and MCATs but crap ECs

 

[chenzt]

.

 

[LizzyM]

Getting some grade robot applicants by two adcoms doesn't mean its true for the entire med school application population. People around me are mostly democrats because I live in the city. It would be ignorant of me to assume that the rest of the country are also democrats.

No, but it would be safe to assume that there are democrats in every state in the union.

Every year I see some applicants who have great numbers and nothing much of anything else on the application. Yes, these applicants do exist. They make up some of the applicant pool.

I'm not kidding. The Verbal section of the MCAT is there for a reason.

 

[touchpause13]

Getting some grade robot applicants by two adcoms doesn't mean its true for the entire med school application population. People around me are mostly democrats because I live in the city. It would be ignorant of me to assume that the rest of the country are also democrats.

Nice strawman.
I never made that argument.

 

[chenzt]

.

 

[chenzt]

.

 

[touchpause13]

Bernard was acting like high stat low EC applicants don't exist at all. I was merely pointing out that they do. I never said how many there might be because I have no idea

 

[ichor]

What I said was:

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves.


I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.



There is a reason why there is a verbal section on the MCAT.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

What does someone's motivations to do medicine have to do with whether they are foreign? (Cause I know you're not lumping Asian Americans and Asian immigrants together)

 

[StBernardsRule]

Reading the thread now and finding it very interesting.

Don't bother explaining this to the few people arguing against helping out URMs. Most of these counter arguments are self serving and just goes in circles. None of the posters against Affirmative Action even mention that whites are also at a disadvantage nor are they fighting to right that wrong, just the Asian side of the URM vs ORM debate.

For what it's worth, it was my understanding that race played no issue in admissions it'd help Asians a bit, greatly hurt Black and Latino applicants, and whites would just about break even. That could be wrong, but that may be why you're not hearing whites complain.

Another thing I'd like to add is while I'll be the first person to admit being white in America probably means you'll face the least amount of discrimination (on average) possible, you learn pretty quickly that being white means you have to be very, very careful with everything you say regarding race. Someone in this very thread has already said racism is only possible in America when white people are doing it (I heard this last week as well, though not on this site). If I were to make a comment about how I think taking race into account for medical school admissions is unfair I imagine I'd quickly get a lecture about "white privilege" and be told I can't understand racism because I'm white.

 

[MDforMee]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

What does someone's motivations to do medicine have to do with whether they are foreign? (Cause I know you're not lumping Asian Americans and Asian immigrants together)

If you don't mind my saying so, I think that you'd be more effective at starting/maintaining conversations if you were less confrontational.

Even if you disagree with someone else's opinions or perspectives, you can still speak in a polite -- and mature -- manner.

Try it out with me, if you want. I don't mind, and could use the intermittent study breaks.

 

[MangoPlant]

To me, suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist.

The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

 

[Lucca]

To @MangoPlant
@LizzyM said
"To me suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist."

"The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian."

Causation =/= Correlation.

X thing is CAUSED by race === racist (operative word: because)
X thing is CORRELATED with race === statistics. (operative words: most likely)

But seriously. Reading skills.

 

[Lucca]

Reading the thread now and finding it very interesting.



For what it's worth, it was my understanding that race played no issue in admissions it'd help Asians a bit, greatly hurt Black and Latino applicants, and whites would just about break even. That could be wrong, but that may be why you're not hearing whites complain.

Another thing I'd like to add is while I'll be the first person to admit being white in America probably means you'll face the least amount of discrimination (on average) possible, you learn pretty quickly that being white means you have to be very, very careful with everything you say regarding race. Someone in this very thread has already said racism is only possible in America when white people are doing it (I heard this last week as well, though not on this site). If I were to make a comment about how I think taking race into account for medical school admissions is unfair I imagine I'd quickly get a lecture about "white privilege" and be told I can't understand racism because I'm white.

Go back and read the whole thread and scan for the posts with links to statistics and calculations in them. That should clear everything up to a certain degree.

 

[LizzyM]

Along with the MCAT verbal, I think we are going to start requiring Philosophy 101 Logic of all pre-meds.

I've been making quips about the MCAT verbal because some people here can't seem to read. They also seem impaired when it comes to logical thinking.

If I say "Asians are being pushed into medicne by their parents." I am making a racist remark. I am lumping all Asians together and making a observation that is prejudicial. But I did not say that. I said "The applicants most likely to 'test positive' for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian." This is to say that some applicants are being pushed into medicine and that a large subset of those applicants are Asian.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

If I say "Asians are being pushed into medicne by their parents." I am making a racist remark. I am lumping all Asians together and making a observation that is prejudicial. But I did not say that. I said "The applicants most likely to 'test positive' for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian." This is to say that some applicants are being pushed into medicine and that a large subset of those applicants are Asian.

What do you mean by "test positive for external forces pushing them into medicine"? Is this backed up by independent research or simply self-confirmation of your personal opinion about Asian applicants' motivation for medicine?

I think you'd agree that everyone has "external forces" pushing them into medicine, whether that be parents, the hunt for social status, a depressed economy, prospect of a stable financial future, etc. The parental factor is certainly present in a lot of Asian households, especially households where one or both parents are professionals, but it is also present in a lot of white/black/other color upper middle class households as well. (The only mom I saw at an interview this year was white.) If you know of any research showing this phenomenon is more common among Asian applicants than the overall applicant pool, please share.

 

[MangoPlant]

Along with the MCAT verbal, I think we are going to start requiring Philosophy 101 Logic of all pre-meds.

I've been making quips about the MCAT verbal because some people here can't seem to read. They also seem impaired when it comes to logical thinking.

If I say "Asians are being pushed into medicne by their parents." I am making a racist remark. I am lumping all Asians together and making a observation that is prejudicial. But I did not say that. I said "The applicants most likely to 'test positive' for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian." This is to say that some applicants are being pushed into medicine and that a large subset of those applicants are Asian.

I apologize, I did slightly mis-interpret your first quote. But from your explanation, what I understand is that the statements below are not racist:

The people most likely to fail a background check in this country are blacks!
The people most likely to test positive for drugs in their system are blacks!
The people most likely to fail an English test are Asians!
The people most likely to not pass through an immigration check point are Hispanics.

Just to be clear: I'm NOT calling you a racist and I personally do not believe you are a racist. Also before someone quotes me out of context, I DO NOT believe any of the examples given above, they are just examples.

 

[Lucca]

What do you mean by "test positive for external forces pushing them into medicine"? Is this backed up by independent research or simply self-confirmation of your personal opinion about Asian applicants' motivation for medicine?

I think you'd agree that everyone has "external forces" pushing them into medicine, whether that be parents, the hunt for social status, a depressed economy, prospect of a stable financial future, etc. The parental factor is certainly present in a lot of Asian households, especially households where one or both parents are professionals, but it is also present in a lot of white/black/other color upper middle class households as well. (The only mom I saw at an interview this year was white.) If you know of any research showing this phenomenon is more common among Asian applicants than the overall applicant pool, please share.

Considering I've been doing everyone's snooping on this thread for the past 5 pages for them, I might as well.

Here you go. University of Vermont paper on familial pressure and Asian American mental health.
Also this.
Educational Expectations of Asian American Youths: Determinants and Ethnic Differences

Kimberly Goyette and Yu Xie
Sociology of Education , Vol. 72, No. 1 (Jan., 1999) , pp. 22-36

All I did was go on Google Scholar and google Asian Parents. The information is out there, if you look.

 

[MDforMee]

 

[Lucca]

I apologize, I did slightly mis-interpret your first quote. But from your explanation, what I understand is that the statements below are not racist:

The people most likely to fail a background check in this country are blacks!
The people most likely to test positive for drugs in their system are blacks!
The people most likely to fail an English test are Asians!
The people most likely to not pass through an immigration check point are Hispanics.

Just to be clear: I'm NOT calling you a racist and I personally do not believe you are a racist. Also before someone quotes me out of context, I DO NOT believe any of the examples given above, they are just examples.

Statement 1 is racist because it is not backed up by hard data. The group most likely to be arrested are African-Americans, as studies have shown, while there is no evidence that they are most often justly arrested. Edit: It seems it says background checks and not jail. I might have read too quickly, but in that case, yes it might not be racist since I believe previous arrests are included in background checks.

Statement 2 is racist for the same reason.

Statement 3 is racist. Hispanics are most likely to fail an English test; not only are they the fastest growing immigrant population, they also are the most likely to have the least educational attainment of the immigrant populations.

Statement 4 is, in fact, not racist.

I'm not trying to be nit-picky with this, I'm genuinely trying to help you understand.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

To @MangoPlant
@LizzyM said
"To me suggesting that one racial group is more likely to drop out of medical school because they are members of this racial group is racist."

"The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian."

Causation =/= Correlation.

X thing is CAUSED by race === racist (operative word: because)
X thing is CORRELATED with race === statistics. (operative words: most likely)

But seriously. Reading skills.

I think you are the one who needs to brush up on his reading skills.

I said that ON AVERAGE, members of certain groups appear more likely to be ill-prepared for medical school. This is backed up by the fact that the attrition rate for URMs is approximately 10x as great as it is for white and Asian students. The difference does not seem to disappear when you account for low SES, since the proportion of low SES black students is less than double the proportion of low SES white/Asian students.

Again, on average. Obviously the vast majority of URM students make it through just fine. But URMs DO drop out in higher numbers. I have not done an in-depth analysis of the causes for this. I'm sure the reasons are multi-factorial.

Everything I have cited is fact. Facts are not racist.

Calling black people violent criminals -- that's racist. Calling Asian kids automaton grade robots -- that's racist.

 

[LizzyM]

I think you are the one who needs to brush up on his reading skills.

I said that ON AVERAGE, members of certain groups appear more likely to be ill-prepared for medical school. This is backed up by the fact that the attrition rate for URMs is approximately 10x as great as it is for white and Asian students. The difference does not seem to disappear when you account for low SES, since the proportion of low SES black students is less than double the proportion of low SES white/Asian students.

Again, on average. Obviously the vast majority of URM students make it through just fine. But URMs DO drop out in higher numbers. I have not done an in-depth analysis of the causes for this. I'm sure the reasons are multi-factorial.

Everything I have cited is fact. Facts are not racist.

Calling black people violent criminals -- that's racist. Calling Asian kids automaton grade robots -- that's racist.

Please provide me with the data showing that the attrition rate for URM is 10 times that of white and Asians. I'm very interested.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Considering I've been doing everyone's snooping on this thread for the past 5 pages for them, I might as well.

Here you go. University of Vermont paper on familial pressure and Asian American mental health.
Also this.
Educational Expectations of Asian American Youths: Determinants and Ethnic Differences

Kimberly Goyette and Yu Xie
Sociology of Education , Vol. 72, No. 1 (Jan., 1999) , pp. 22-36

All I did was go on Google Scholar and google Asian Parents. The information is out there, if you look.

Did you even read those links you posted? Nothing in those papers suggests that a high % of Asian applicants go into medicine because their parents tell them to.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Please provide me with the data showing that the attrition rate for URM is 10 times that of white and Asians. I'm very interested.

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

Edit: Before someone calls me out for bad math skills, the attrition rate for blacks is APPROXIMATELY 10x as great as the attrition rate for whites. The attrition rate for hispanics is APPROXIMATELY 4x as great as the attrition rate for whites.

 

[LizzyM]

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

Edit: Before someone calls me out for bad math skills, the attrition rate for blacks is APPROXIMATELY 10x as great as the attrition rate for whites. The attrition rate for hispanics is APPROXIMATELY 4x as great as the attrition rate for whites.

It is more like 8 or 9 times depending on whether you compare to White or Asian (note that Asian had slightly higher attrition than White applicants). I couldn't imagine it being 10 times. Thanks for the data. Alas, attrition data is always somewhat stale; we have to go back to admission decisions made 18-26 years ago.

 

[Lucca]

I think you are the one who needs to brush up on his reading skills.

I said that ON AVERAGE, members of certain groups appear more likely to be ill-prepared for medical school. This is backed up by the fact that the attrition rate for URMs is approximately 10x as great as it is for white and Asian students. The difference does not seem to disappear when you account for low SES, since the proportion of low SES black students is less than double the proportion of low SES white/Asian students.

Again, on average. Obviously the vast majority of URM students make it through just fine. But URMs DO drop out in higher numbers. I have not done an in-depth analysis of the causes for this. I'm sure the reasons are multi-factorial.

Everything I have cited is fact. Facts are not racist.

Calling black people violent criminals -- that's racist. Calling Asian kids automaton grade robots -- that's racist.

I am aware. In your original post you said:

1. Yes, it is unethical to hold one group of people (based on gender, race, whatever) to higher standards. Applicants should be judged as individuals.

2. Clearly certain groups are not as well prepared for medical school, on average, as other groups. This is proven by the fact that URM students have a much higher attrition rate than white or Asian students. With all due respect, your comment above comes across as obnoxious. There are very real discrepancies in the American educational system, which are evident in the fact that 1) A lower proportion of URM students apply to medical school compared to other groups, and 2) URM students have a much higher dropout rate. So yes, I would argue that URM groups should be "given more help starting in kindergarten."

You are correct in saying members of minority groups have attrition rates that are comparably higher to White or Asian matriculants, to a significant extent. I don't think this statement is racist, however I did not get involved in this discussion about racist vs. not racist until MangoPlanet cited those two quotes in an attempt to equate LizzyMs argument to racism, and there I think the distinctions I made are still important.

Did you even read those links you posted? Nothing in those papers suggests that a high % of Asian applicants go into medicine because their parents tell them to.

Did you?

Read the "Model Minority Student" and "Family and Parents" sections in the UVM paper. It has nothing to do with medicine except for one anecdote about the student going into medicine, sure, but information gathered and arguments applied can all be extended to pressure into going into medicine. I.e. "Going to college ---> pressure to perform well academically without support ---> pressure to succeed economically ----> pressure to find prestigious career" etc.

In the journal paper read the section titled "Parental Expectations" . It sets up the theory. Go to page 28 and take a look at the chart outlining "descriptive statistics" for educational expectations. All of these transfer over, easily, to medicine.

 

[MDforMee]

Did you even read those links you posted? Nothing in those papers suggests that a high % of Asian applicants go into medicine because their parents tell them to.

I'm just curious, Quinn... you seem to be the resident Q and A Asian in this thread (since most of the others have stopped posting), so I thought I'd ask: Why don't you think that anyone has bothered to make it clear what "Asians" we're talking about, here?

As far as I know, Southeast Asians, Japanese, Filipinos, and Pacific Islanders are not heavily overrepresented in medical schools (how Chinese and Indians are), and there are big cultural differences between these pan-Asian countries.

 

[Goro]

On apps I see can see if an applicant reports themselves" disadvantaged", and I never pay any attention to it. l don't know what our Admissions Dean does with the info.

Not 100% sure on this, maybe LizzyM or Goro can chime in, but medical schools do NOT have to report SES diversity to LCME (med school accreditation board). How many med-schools are going to be interested in building economic diversity if they don't even have to report it?

 

[Goro]

They must be applying to my school after they rejected from yours!

No, but it would be safe to assume that there are democrats in every state in the union.

Every year I see some applicants who have great numbers and nothing much of anything else on the application. Yes, these applicants do exist. They make up some of the applicant pool.

I'm not kidding. The Verbal section of the MCAT is there for a reason.

Please restrain your ignorance of the admissions process. LizzyM has interviewed >500 applicants and I have been doing it off >10 years for >700 people. We see the same features. The applicants lack enthusiasm for Medicine and it shows. They say the right things, but lack passion. What I've seen is that it also isn't restricted to Asians... but they tend to be children of and/or siblings of doctors.


What do you mean by "test positive for external forces pushing them into medicine"? Is this backed up by independent research or simply self-confirmation of your personal opinion about Asian applicants' motivation for medicine?

 

[taffer]

They must be applying to my school after they rejected from yours!




Please restrain your ignorance of the admissions process. LizzyM has interviewed >500 applicants and I have been doing it off >10 years for >700 people. We see the same features. The applicants lack enthusiasm for Medicine and it shows. They say the right things, but lack passion. What I've seen is that it also isn't restricted to Asians... but they tend to be children of and/or siblings of doctors.


What do you mean by "test positive for external forces pushing them into medicine"? Is this backed up by independent research or simply self-confirmation of your personal opinion about Asian applicants' motivation for medicine?

If you have taken any introductory psychology course you would know that there are very large cultural differences when it comes to the expression of emotion. An American may experience the same intensity of emotion, "passion", or "enthusiasm" as a Chinese person, but will likely be much more demonstrative about it.

 

[plumazul]

I think you'd agree that everyone has "external forces" pushing them into medicine, whether that be parents, the hunt for social status, a depressed economy, prospect of a stable financial future, etc. The parental factor is certainly present in a lot of Asian households, especially households where one or both parents are professionals, but it is also present in a lot of white/black/other color upper middle class households as well. (The only mom I saw at an interview this year was white.)

I don't agree. My mom(a professional with a graduate education) thinks I'm "nuts" for going into medicine.

 

[Goro]

In the US, AdComs like students who will make good prospective doctors. Appearing to be an insensate robot is not of the ways to do that. We have plenty of good applicants, so we can reject the ones who are hindered by their cultural norms. The same holds true for applicants that have very patriarchal cultures, or religious beliefs. These tend to have overt misogynistic views. They get rejected too.

If you have taken any introductory psychology course you would know that there are very large cultural differences when it comes to the expression of emotion. An American may experience the same intensity of emotion, "passion", or "enthusiasm" as a Chinese person, but will likely be much more demonstrative about it.

 

[MDforMee]

If you have taken any introductory psychology course you would know that there are very large cultural differences when it comes to the expression of emotion. An American may experience the same intensity of emotion, "passion", or "enthusiasm" as a Chinese person, but will likely be much more demonstrative about it.

Good point. And, I for one appreciate your use of the term "Chinese" when describing a specific type of Asian ethnicity.

But, Goro probably can't be more specific due to being an administrator, here. I wouldn't speak for Goro or Lizzy, but I was the first one in this thread to say that Chinese Asians are more than likely bombing the interviews. And, I was also the first one to delineate Chinese from the "Asian" term people here apparently feel comfortable throwing around, even though it marginalizes just about every non East Asian that isn't overrepresented in medical school. Back on page 2 I said the following:

"All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."

 

[histidine]

Good point. And, I for one appreciate your use of the term "Chinese" when describing a specific type of Asian ethnicity.

But, Goro probably can't be more specific due to being an administrator, here.

I believe that I was the first one in this thread to say that Chinese Asians are more than likely bombing the interviews. And, I was also the first one to delineate Chinese from the "Asian" term people here apparently feel comfortable throwing around, even though it marginalizes just about every non East Asian that isn't overrepresented in medical school. Back on page 2 I said the following:

"All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."

My god this is so racist.

 

[histidine]

.

 

[MDforMee]

My god this is so racist.

Ahh, I thought I might hear from you, histidine.

I remember talking with Quinn about this on earlier pages. Basically, what we need to do is be more candid, and talk more, not less.

Let me help you. First, calm down, and stop feeling so offended. It's not about you, or all Chinese people. Take a deep breath. I know that this isn't easy for you to hear, but it's life, bro. You've got to roll with the punches, and open your mind.

That wasn't so bad, was it?

 

[histidine]

Ahh, I thought I might hear from you, histidine.

I remember talking with Quinn about this on earlier pages. Basically, what we need to do is be more candid, and talk more, not less.

Let me help you. First, calm down, and stop feeling so offended. It's not about you, or all Chinese people. Take a deep breath. I know that this isn't easy for you to hear, but it's life, bro. You've got to roll with the punches, and open your mind.

That wasn't so bad, was it?

Well first of all I'm not even Chinese, or Japanese, or SE Asian, Or Indian.

The whole point I was trying to make with my argument with @LizzyM is that people get away ALL THE TIME stereotyping Asians. As soon as someone makes a statement stereotyping URMs (I don't think Quinn meant it in a racist manner), people jump on them. Meanwhile, you and some others have gone beyond stereotyping into borderline racist comments

And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."

and no one, not even @LizzyM or @Goro, calls you out on it.

 

[MDforMee]

Well first of all I'm not even Chinese, or Japanese, or SE Asian, Or Indian.

The whole point I was trying to make with my argument with @LizzyM is that people get away ALL THE TIME stereotyping Asians. As soon as someone makes a statement stereotyping URMs (I don't think Quinn meant it in a racist manner), people jump on them. Meanwhile, you and some others have gone beyond stereotyping into borderline racist comments "that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on)" and no one, not even @LizzyM or @Goro, calls you out on it.

Interesting points. Looking at it that way, I can see where you're coming from. I can see how these things may even be construed as bordering on racist.

But, that's part of the reason why I wrote it, actually. The type of emotion associated with disliking a group of people needs to be separated from the emotion of disliking a group of people based on real, unbecoming similarities that they share. Racism, then, can be separated from the equation. That's why I said that we should talk more, not less, and further, that we can't generalize about non East Asians.

I don't like it any more than you do, and continuing to discuss this with you may never be productive since you and I may never agree, but I think that in the end, our goals are similar. We just have different ways of holding people accountable for their choices in life.

As far as Goro and Lizzy are concerned for reproaching me, I can see several times in this thread where they may have been able to call me out for being the bad guy; but that's exactly what systems like the ones they work for need. They need a bad guy like me as much as they might not like me and some of the things I say.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Pushed wouldn't be the right word, IMO. But as an immigrant from overseas (not Asian though) I've been around enough Desi people to claim that their attitude towards becoming a doctor tends to be completely different from the mainstream. (Ours is too, to be honest, but we are counted as Caucasians so there is no point in trying to argue anything).

Curious, what is the desi atittude towards being a doctor and what is yours? you dont have to state your ethnicity, but I am always curious of other viewponts outside of the mainstream American view.

How do respond to an argument I brought up earlier about stereotyping and self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that people believe that blacks are bad at school makes it harder for the psychologically to do well in school while the opposite helps Asians do well in school.

This is true that there is a negative psychological effect that occurs which has harmed blacks (and most likely latinos) but what has been overlooked is that this positive expectation for asians is also harmful. This study shows that the opposite expectation hurts asians as well. This study showed that asians being told they were high achievers in math ended up doing worse due to the pressure:
http://depts.washington.edu/sibl/Publications/Cheryan & Bodenhausen (2000).pdf

I didn't want to return to this thread, but since no one seems to believe that Middle Eastern medical students exist, California has:

1,349,111 Chinese

And
715,000 Arabs
500,000 Iranians (in Southern California, alone)
50,000 Afghans
20,000 Israelis
_______________
1,285,000 Middle Easterners. This doesn't include various other Cacuasians that aren't white.

Not challenging you here, but how did you get these numbers? I'm trying to make sense of your numbers, is this counting DO as well or something?

Something like 80% of Asian medical students are actually Chinese. If there are as many Middle Easterners as Chinese (in California, alone) then sorry, we can't just neglect their presence if we're arguing about such a small percentage difference in Chinese vs. "White" admissions.

I'm guessing the 80% figure is a hyperbole, even if all Chinese applicants of every year were 100% admitted that would only equate to about ~10,000 chinese students and using 2012 numbers for total asian matriculants, this would only amount to 50% of asians.

Here is a current breakdown of asian physicians by race(NOTE 2008 numbers):

And total physicians:

I'm curious, though, if it isn't the phantom racist white boogeyman that's discriminating against Asians, then who is it, exactly? Blacks? Hispanics? Jewish people? The elderly? Those with disabilities? Come on.

I think he's referring to Institutional racism which is the existence of procedures and policies that affect a race or ethnic group despite no active racism by the individuals. It is explained better here: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/2008electionandracism/raceandracism/racism02.htm


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This line of demarcation represents response not to anyone's post in particular but to the thread in general

Regarding the parental influence of asian parents on children's vocational choices. This is true, but fast becoming an outdated stereotype, especally as asians acclimate to the American culture:
http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/opus/issues/2013/fall/poon

Studies show that Asian American students are more likely to comply with their parents, whereas white Americans are more likely to make career choices independently (Tang, 2002). This supports the notion that Asian society is a collectivist society that encourages group work, whereas American society is an individualistic society that fosters independence (Moy, 1992). However, depending on the acculturation level of the individual, Asian Americans may be less likely to be influenced by their parents’ occupational expectations (Tang, 2002)

The literature section of this paper is a pretty good historical read on Asian experiences
"Asians are Good at Math. What an Awful Stereotype”: The Model Minority Stereotype’s Impact on Asian American Engineering Students"
http://www.asee.org/JEE_MMS_July_2012.pdf

I think a lot of good can be done by this thread if we can work to identify and destroy stereotypes that every race and ethnic type faces. I get the feeling that asians are viewed as the "haves" in this situation while other races, even whites are viewed as the "have nots." This is not a good situation to be in for our society and definitely not for its healers. Perhaps what MdforMee is saying is a good idea, to come head-on at racism.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Interesting points. Looking at it that way, I can see where you're coming from. I can see how these things may even be construed as bordering on racist.

But, that's part of the reason why I wrote it, actually. The type of emotion associated with disliking a group of people needs to be separated from the emotion of disliking a group of people based on real, unbecoming similarities that they share. Racism, then, can be separated from the equation. That's why I said that we should talk more, not less, and further, that we can't generalize about non East Asians.

I don't like it any more than you do, and continuing to discuss this with you may never be productive since you and I may never agree, but I think that in the end, our goals are similar. We just have different ways of holding people accountable for their choices in life.

As far as Goro and Lizzy are concerned for reproaching me, I can see several times in this thread where they may have been able to call me out for being the bad guy; but that's exactly what systems like the ones they work for need. They need a bad guy like me as much as they might not like me and some of the things I say.

You are either a troll (likely) or a neo-Nazi. These sound exactly like the type statements that were made by Germans in the late 1930s in order to justify the Holocaust.

What I said was:

We also face a proportion of applicants, more commonly among some ethnic groups than others, that are being pushed into medicine rather than making the choice themselves.

I scrutinize everyone's motivation for medicine. The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

What if I said the following:

"I scrutizine everyone's motivation for medicine attending an ivy league school. The applicants most likely to "test-positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine for being money-grubbing, clannish, and socially inept are Asian Jewish."

For the 100th time, you are no better than the bigots of past decades. I hope you eventually realize this.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

 

[plumazul]

And total physicians:

The "Hispanic or Latino" section includes Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico. This hides the real magnitude of the problem. For the past decade, notwithstanding all the good intentions, Mexican American numbers have not improved and perhaps are getting worse.

 

[kyamh]

You're talking about a fairy tale. It would be amazing if everyone had the same SES status and there was no 250 year history of institutional racism and disenfranchisement in this country.

If you want to get into a disenfranchisement and institutional oppression length contest, turn to the women in this country. Despite the setbacks women face historically, societally, economically, and academically (those studies about academic expectations exist in large numbers for women underperforming in math and science) your average female applicant does not lean back and prop herself up on the plight of women from the past. Medicine failed to welcome women for a long time, women hold few positions of power, women earn less, women disproportionally live in poverty...etc. I can go on and link every argument on this thread about challenges faced by URMs to similar and greater challenges faced by women.

I just wish we would stop talking about "historical" reasons. Applicants have real life situations here and now that affect their applications. Adcoms understand these situations and make allowances. It is just frustrating to keep on reading arguments about who America used to oppress. The bottom line is that basically every group was discriminated against in this country at one point or another and basically every group has members who continue to live with the consequences of that historic discrimination. We move on.

 

[plumazul]

You are either a troll (likely) or a neo-Nazi. These sound exactly like the type statements that were made by Germans in the late 1930s in order to justify the Holocaust.



What if I said the following:

"I scrutizine everyone's motivation for medicine attending an ivy league school. The applicants most likely to "test-positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine for being money-grubbing, clannish, and socially inept are Asian Jewish."

For the 100th time, you are no better than the bigots of past decades. I hope you eventually realize this.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

I would suggest that you count to ten and take a deep breath before posting.