Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

crimsonkid85

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    I admit this is better. But how many of those who 'plan' on going into primary care after med school actually do so? What are the attrition rates in residency? Those who get married and then stop working? And after all, just because you do an IM residency doesn't mean you will necessary do primary care!! (Cards? GI? Onc? etc)

    #1 These are not matriculants, these are people who are on their way OUT of medical school.
     

    MangoPlant

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      A few years ago, at an admissions committee meeting, an Asian applicant with an MCAT of 41, publications, volunteer experience, shadowing experience, was rejected in favor of a URM with a 27 MCAT.

      I go to a top 3 medical school. I almost walked out of the committee meeting, I was so in favor of accepting the Asian applicant*. I am proud to say that almost half the faculty were just as enraged as me after that vote.

      *Full disclosure, I am Asian.

      Most of the people arguing in favor of the URM will respond to this and say something along the lines of "the asian probably didn't have enough passion for medicine" or "the asian probably came across as being force into medicine" even though they know nothing about his/her ECs and nothing about how he/she interviewed.
       

      ChemEngMD

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        Chem I genuinely appreciate your response, but I feel like you've kind of danced around my question a bit.



        So are you saying it is ok to stereotype then because the data shows that most Asians who leave medical school are less likely to serve undeserved communities than African Americans? For what it's worth, I'm actually fine if you say "yes" as I wouldn't lose any respect for someone who holds this opinion (though I don't agree with it). I'd just prefer people to own it.



        Fair enough, but should they get the **same** boost. That's what's so key. I can't imagine anyone would argue they wouldn't get some boost, but will it be near the advantage of the URM boost (which is worth probably 8-10 MCAT points relative to being Asian?).

        Keep in mind that if there was anything an applicant could do to get them the equivalent of the URM boost, then it'd almost immediately become mandatory to get into medical school. Nearly every single Asian applicant would volunteer in an undeserved area as those that did not would have no chance.

        All I would say is that if you don't have any cultural attachment to underserved communities (i.e. you're from one or you have family in one) then you somewhat need to prove your dedication to them. I don't think that it's okay to "stereotype" the applicants, but anyone who does not have a cultural attachment to underserved communities has to have a strong background in underserved work to prove their dedication.

        Also, the idea of a URM "boost" is a misnomer. As I pointed out earlier, each year there are only 278 URM applicants with a LizzyM of 69+ applying to US MD schools. It's not that there is a 8-10 LizzyM boost by being a URM, but rather the pool is so small and not as statistically strong as Asian applicants (1803 applicants per year with a LizzyM of 69+) that they have to pull deeper from the pool.
         
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        ChemEngMD

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          I admit this is better. But how many of those who 'plan' on going into primary care after med school actually do so? What are the attrition rates in residency? Those who get married and then stop working? And after all, just because you do an IM residency doesn't mean you will necessary do primary care!! (Cards? GI? Onc? etc)

          To me, it isn't a graph on "primary care" Figure #31 in the 2005 version, Figure #30 in the 2011, say "Planning to Practice in an Underserved Area" -- underserved areas need everything from PCPs to surgeons to specialists.

          Edit: For the 2005 graph it was Medical School Graduates, for the 2011 graph it was first year matriculants. Somewhat comparing apples to oranges I guess. I would presume the graduates decisions would be much more solidified than the matriculants.
           

          UMU1030

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            Does anyone else not notice the huge problem with the blanket statement that URM's plan to go into primary care?

            #1. Since when does 'plan to go into primary care' equate to actually going into primary care? I cannot tell you the number applicants who I interviewed who claimed in the interview "I want to do primary care" and then three years later try to match into plastics. Where is the data on who actually goes into primary care?
            #2. Let us not forget that applying to residency is every bit a function of what you WANT to go into as much as it is what you actually CAN get into. There is a plethora of data showing that Black and Hispanic URMs score ON AVERAGE (again, no claims about individual people) lower than their white and Asian counterparts. In other words, what function of Black/Hispanic physicians going into primary care is driven NOT by the fact that they WANT to go into primary care, but simply because they cannot match into Rad Onc, Plastics, Neurosurg, Ortho, Ophtho, etc?

            I am not actually trying to be incendiary, but has truly no one thought about this explanation?

            I totally understand what you're saying. You're right, saying that one wants to do something does not mean that the person will carry that plan through four years later, but to some extent the interviewer will be looking for signs of deception. You indicated that you interview perspective students and I bet you get this scenario a lot, when a student says they want to do primary care in rural North Dakota but the life experiences and extra curricular activities just don't give validation to this.
            Also, this data was not necessarily about doing primary care, but more about practicing in underserved areas. Asians mostly practice in metropolitan and suburban areas, but metropolitan areas with large minority populations suddenly don't seem as appealing. That quote shows that URM's are more drawn to practicing in communities with large minority populations and with many medicare patients.
             

            StBernardsRule

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              Chem while I don't know you. as a poster I like you (your points are reasonably clear and you seem genuinely interested in this topic). So please don't take this the wrong way, but posts like this kind of annoy me as I know we both know what I mean.

              Also, the idea of a URM "boost" is a misnomer. As I pointed out earlier, each year there are only 278 URM applicants with a LizzyM of 69+ applying to US MD schools. It's not that there is a 8-10 LizzyM boost by being a URM, but rather the pool is so small and not as statistically strong as Asian applicants (1803 applicants per year with a LizzyM of 69+) that they have to pull deeper from the pool.

              To get a 60% acceptance rate with a 3.5 GPA, an Asian needs a 33 MCAT.
              To get a 60% acceptance rate with a 3.5 GPA, an African American needs somewhere between a 23 and 24 MCAT.

              I didn't cherry pick this data. I just randomly said "Meh, let's go with a 3.5 GPA" and followed the lines in the "what are my chances?" sticky. You'll get similar results with other GPAs.

              Calling this anything other than a "URM boost" is in my opinion misleading. Sure, I get why the ADCOMS are doing it. I can respect people who think this is not only justified but necessary. But let's not try to manipulate data to suggest one doesn't get a very big boost just from the color of their skin. I know less African Americans are admitted to medical school than Asians, but that doesn't change the fact that all else equal you're much more likely to be admitted as an African American than Asian.
               
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              QuinnTheEskimo

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                If an applicant of ANY race shows a sustained, serious commitment to working in underserved communities, I can understand giving that applicant a "boost", despite less-than-stellar stats. However, the way I see it, commitment to working with the underserved is completely INDEPENDENT of race.

                If a URM applicant expresses a desire to go into orthopedic surgery or plastic surgery, etc., should he get a boost, simply by virtue of his race? No. Why should he? Because the country needs a certain % of black plastic surgeons?
                 
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                crimsonkid85

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                  I agree with you; my BS alert goes to 1000% whenever a student tells me they want to go into primary care. In fact, my usual response is to inform the applicant that there is no family medicine residency at my institution (a major research institution). Most of them panic immediately and mumble something about actually being open to many fields. Which is my cue to sit back, relax, and stop taking notes, because they have just lied/misrepresented themselves and I have just rejected them.

                  I have a separate question about your statement "Also, this data was not necessarily about doing primary care, but more about practicing in underserved areas. Asians mostly practice in metropolitan and suburban areas, but metropolitan areas with large minority populations suddenly don't seem as appealing. That quote shows that URM's are more drawn to practicing in communities with large minority populations and with many medicare patients."

                  Asians as a minority mostly live in large metropolitan and suburban areas. In other words, you're not likely to find as many Asians in Oklahama City as in San Francisco. Why should an Asian applicant be penalized to want to serve THEIR populations? For example, I am only considering the locations of Boston, NYC, SF, or LA for residency, but in part because that's where Asian people live. Aren't Asians minority populations?

                  I totally understand what you're saying. You're right, saying that one wants to do something does not mean that the person will carry that plan through four years later, but to some extent the interviewer will be looking for signs of deception. You indicated that you interview perspective students and I bet you get this scenario a lot, when a student says they want to do primary care in rural North Dakota but the life experiences and extra curricular activities just don't give validation to this.
                  Also, this data was not necessarily about doing primary care, but more about practicing in underserved areas. Asians mostly practice in metropolitan and suburban areas, but metropolitan areas with large minority populations suddenly don't seem as appealing. That quote shows that URM's are more drawn to practicing in communities with large minority populations and with many medicare patients.
                   
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                  ChemEngMD

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                    Chem while I don't know you. as a poster I like you (your points are reasonably clear and you seem genuinely interested in this topic). So please don't take this the wrong way, but posts like this kind of annoy me as I know we both know what I mean.



                    To get a 60% acceptance rate with a 3.5 GPA, an Asian needs a 33 MCAT.
                    To get a 60% acceptance rate with a 3.5 GPA, an African American needs somewhere between a 23 and 24 MCAT.

                    I didn't cherry pick this data. I just randomly said "Meh, let's go with a 3.5 GPA" and followed the lines in the "what are my chances?" sticky. You'll get similar results with other GPAs.

                    Calling this anything other than a "URM boost" is in my opinion misleading. Sure, I get why the ADCOMS are doing it. I can respect people who think this is not only justified but necessary. But let's not try to manipulate data to suggest one doesn't get a very big boost just from the color of their skin. I know less African Americans are admitted to medical school than Asians, but that doesn't change the fact that all else equal you're much more likely to be admitted as an African American than Asian.

                    I choose not to parse the data specifically for African Americans or Latinos but rather I choose to use the overall URM numbers (https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/2012factstable25-5.pdf) if you look at that chart the OVERALL acceptance rate for URMs (Black, Latino, Native) was 44% from 2010 to 2012. If you look at the Asian data (https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf) they had a 44.5% chance of admittance over this same period of time. Whites on the other hand (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf) have 47.7% chance of acceptance.

                    If you decide to go further into the data then African Americans (https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf) had an overall 39.4% rate of acceptance from 2010 to 2012. So that is a 39.4% rate of acceptance for African Americans and a 44.5% rate of acceptance for Asians.

                    I would say that you're much more likely to be accepted as an Asian than an African American (not at a given GPA/MCAT combination, but overall).
                     
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                    Mad Jack

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                      Does anyone else not notice the huge problem with the blanket statement that URM's plan to go into primary care?

                      #1. Since when does 'plan to go into primary care' equate to actually going into primary care? I cannot tell you the number applicants who I interviewed who claimed in the interview "I want to do primary care" and then three years later try to match into plastics. Where is the data on who actually goes into primary care?
                      #2. Let us not forget that applying to residency is every bit a function of what you WANT to go into as much as it is what you actually CAN get into. There is a plethora of data showing that Black and Hispanic URMs score ON AVERAGE (again, no claims about individual people) lower than their white and Asian counterparts. In other words, what function of Black/Hispanic physicians going into primary care is driven NOT by the fact that they WANT to go into primary care, but simply because they cannot match into Rad Onc, Plastics, Neurosurg, Ortho, Ophtho, etc?

                      I am not actually trying to be incendiary, but has truly no one thought about this explanation?
                      Serving in an underserved area does not mean primary care exclusively. The poor and underserved need specialists just as bad as anyone else.
                       
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                      QuinnTheEskimo

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                        I choose not to parse the data specifically for African Americans or Latinos but rather I choose to use the overall URM numbers (https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/2012factstable25-5.pdf) if you look at that chart the OVERALL acceptance rate for URMs (Black, Latino, Native) was 44% from 2010 to 2012. If you look at the Asian data (https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf) they had a 44.5% chance of admittance over this same period of time. Whites on the other hand (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf) have 47.7% chance of acceptance.

                        If you decide to go further into the data then African Americans (https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf) had an overall 39.4% rate of acceptance from 2010 to 2012. So that is a 39.4% rate of acceptance for African Americans and a 44.5% rate of acceptance for Asians.

                        I would say that you're much more likely to be accepted as an Asian than an African American (not at a given GPA/MCAT combination, but overall).

                        The key is that for every decent GPA/MCAT combination, URMs have an advantage.
                         
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                        crimsonkid85

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                          Thank you for clarifying.

                          But -- supposing an Asian applicant said, I want to go into plastics, and I want to go to an underserved area afterwards.

                          Would you accept them?

                          Serving in an underserved area does not mean primary care exclusively. The poor and underserved need specialists just as bad as anyone else.
                           
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                          Mad Jack

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                            I agree with you; my BS alert goes to 1000% whenever a student tells me they want to go into primary care. In fact, my usual response is to inform the applicant that there is no family medicine residency at my institution (a major research institution). Most of them panic immediately and mumble something about actually being open to many fields. Which is my cue to sit back, relax, and stop taking notes, because they have just lied/misrepresented themselves and I have just rejected them.

                            I have a separate question about your statement "Also, this data was not necessarily about doing primary care, but more about practicing in underserved areas. Asians mostly practice in metropolitan and suburban areas, but metropolitan areas with large minority populations suddenly don't seem as appealing. That quote shows that URM's are more drawn to practicing in communities with large minority populations and with many medicare patients."

                            Asians as a minority mostly live in large metropolitan and suburban areas. In other words, you're not likely to find as many Asians in Oklahama City as in San Francisco. Why should an Asian applicant be penalized to want to serve THEIR populations? For example, I am only considering the locations of Boston, NYC, SF, or LA for residency, but in part because that's where Asian people live. Aren't Asians minority populations?
                            Asians have plenty of doctors willing to serve their communities, as they are the most over represented race in medicine by a long shot. Asians aren't penalized for wanting to serve their communities, they just aren't given bonus points because there are already people there.
                             

                            crimsonkid85

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                              I direct them here:

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

                              There are some black and Hispanic groups in America that far outperform some white and Asian groups. Immigrants from many West Indian and African countries, such as Jamaica, Ghana, and Haiti, are climbing America’s higher education ladder, but perhaps the most prominent are Nigerians. Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites.

                              Cuban-Americans in Miami rose in one generation from widespread penury to relative affluence. By 1990, United States-born Cuban children — whose parents had arrived as exiles, many with practically nothing — were twice as likely as non-Hispanic whites to earn over $50,000 a year. All three Hispanic United States senators are Cuban-Americans.

                              Meanwhile, some Asian-American groups — Cambodian- and Hmong-Americans, for example — are among the poorest in the country, as are some predominantly white communities in central Appalachia.

                              How do you guys against URM respond to an argument that for URM applicants it is much harder to get equivalent GPA/MCAT of a non-URM regardless of SES just as a function of living in American society?
                               
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                              Mad Jack

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                                Thank you for clarifying.

                                But -- supposing an Asian applicant said, I want to go into plastics, and I want to go to an underserved area afterwards.

                                Would you accept them?
                                Would depend on the person. If it was an Asian from Kansas, or a kid that grew up in those surroundings, I'd probably believe them. Is take a conversation with them to gauge their intent. Even if it was their intent, however, it would only add points to the scale, it wouldn't be a free pass to admission.
                                 

                                UMU1030

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                                  Asians as a minority mostly live in large metropolitan and suburban areas. In other words, you're not likely to find as many Asians in Oklahama City as in San Francisco. Why should an Asian applicant be penalized to want to serve THEIR populations? For example, I am only considering the locations of Boston, NYC, SF, or LA for residency, but in part because that's where Asian people live. Aren't Asians minority populations?

                                  Asians are a minority populations, who account for roughly 5% of the US population. So they are even more of a minority population than African Americans, who compose about 13% of the populations. If 20% of medical school graduates want to serve their populations, which is only 5% of the US population, then problems are going to arise. Look at some statistics for the specialist population of the Greater Bay Area and you will soon see this problem...you only need so many cardiologists in this urban area.

                                  Edit link:http://www.chcf.org/~/media/MEDIA LIBRARY Files/PDF/C/PDF CaliforniaPhysicianFactsFigures2010.pdf
                                   

                                  StBernardsRule

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                                    I choose not to parse the data specifically for African Americans or Latinos but rather I choose to use the overall URM numbers (https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/2012factstable25-5.pdf) if you look at that chart the OVERALL acceptance rate for URMs (Black, Latino, Native) was 44% from 2010 to 2012. If you look at the Asian data (https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf) they had a 44.5% chance of admittance over this same period of time. Whites on the other hand (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf) have 47.7% chance of acceptance.

                                    If you decide to go further into the data then African Americans (https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf) had an overall 39.4% rate of acceptance from 2010 to 2012. So that is a 39.4% rate of acceptance for African Americans and a 44.5% rate of acceptance for Asians.

                                    But why do you choose not to "parse through the data?" You should try to control for as many variables as possible and in this case the easiest aspects of an application which can be controlled are GPA and MCAT.

                                    The only reason I can imagine that you're choosing not to "parse through the data specifically" is because you're hoping to someone reads "African Americans applicants are less likely to be accepted than Asian applicants" and incorrectly assumes that means "Asian applicants must not face many if any disadvantages since they're accepted at a higher rate." I can't imagine that you actually think this is the best way to analyze data (this isn't me trying to offend you, but you're a chemical engineer so I have no doubt you're quite good at math and understand statistics well).

                                    I would say that you're much more likely to be accepted as an Asian than an African American (not at a given GPA/MCAT combination, but overall).

                                    This goes back to my point earlier today and why I think Asians have it unfair. When someone sees data like this, they're likely to think "Suck it up Asians, you're already over represented, so how can you compare about unfairness?"
                                     
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                                    Mad Jack

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                                      I direct them here:

                                      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

                                      There are some black and Hispanic groups in America that far outperform some white and Asian groups. Immigrants from many West Indian and African countries, such as Jamaica, Ghana, and Haiti, are climbing America’s higher education ladder, but perhaps the most prominent are Nigerians. Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites.

                                      Cuban-Americans in Miami rose in one generation from widespread penury to relative affluence. By 1990, United States-born Cuban children — whose parents had arrived as exiles, many with practically nothing — were twice as likely as non-Hispanic whites to earn over $50,000 a year. All three Hispanic United States senators are Cuban-Americans.

                                      Meanwhile, some Asian-American groups — Cambodian- and Hmong-Americans, for example — are among the poorest in the country, as are some predominantly white communities in central Appalachia.
                                      Those are first generation immigrants. They are a self selecting group with different values, beliefs, and developmental environmental factors than African Americans.
                                       
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                                      ChemEngMD

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                                        But why do you choose not to "parse through the data?" You should try to control for as many variables as possible and in this case the easiest aspects of an application which can be controlled are GPA and MCAT.

                                        The only reason I can imagine that you're choosing not to "parse through the data specifically" is because you're hoping to someone reads "African Americans applicants are less likely to be accepted than Asian applicants" and incorrectly assumes that means "Asian applicants must not face many if any disadvantages since they're accepted at a higher rate." I can't imagine that you actually think this is the best way to analyze data (this isn't me trying to offend you, but you're a chemical engineer so I have no doubt you're quite good at math and understand statistics well).



                                        This goes back to my point earlier today and why I think Asians have it unfair. When someone sees data like this, they're likely to think "Suck it up Asians, you're already over represented, so how can you compare about unfairness?"

                                        When I said "parse" I simply meant splitting up African Americans and Latinos and Natives. I simply choose to use the overall URM data since all 3 of those demographics are relatively small.

                                        Look at the overall data. OVERALL there is a 44% chance of admittance for URMs and a 44.5% chance of admittance for Asians. How are you more likely to get admitted as a URM?

                                        Yes, I have two engineering degrees. One in chemical engineering and one in biological engineering. And yes, I understand that 44.5 > 44.0 ...and if you want to look at African Americans specifically then 44.5% is definitely greater than 39.4%.
                                         
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                                        SunsFun

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                                          I direct them here:

                                          http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

                                          There are some black and Hispanic groups in America that far outperform some white and Asian groups. Immigrants from many West Indian and African countries, such as Jamaica, Ghana, and Haiti, are climbing America’s higher education ladder, but perhaps the most prominent are Nigerians. Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites.

                                          Cuban-Americans in Miami rose in one generation from widespread penury to relative affluence. By 1990, United States-born Cuban children — whose parents had arrived as exiles, many with practically nothing — were twice as likely as non-Hispanic whites to earn over $50,000 a year. All three Hispanic United States senators are Cuban-Americans.

                                          Meanwhile, some Asian-American groups — Cambodian- and Hmong-Americans, for example — are among the poorest in the country, as are some predominantly white communities in central Appalachia.
                                          So basically you're deflecting my point by comparing apples to oranges. I have brought this up in multiple threads before but indigenous population shouldn't be compared to immigrants.

                                          http://nclebanese.wordpress.com/201...nese-most-successful-immigrants-in-the-world/

                                          …"Anybody who immigrates is already a self-selecting population. In other words, when you makes the decision, and this kind of goes on a larger notion. Our understanding of immigration is of these sort of desperate souls that are sort of clinging to lifeboats and arriving here and just that’s it. It’s a very nice narrative, but it’s a false narrative. In fact, most people…they don’t come here beyond the fact that most of them, the great majority of them come here to make money with the full intention of going back, by the way…These people came here, they uprooted themselves from their culture, from their family, the familiar world that they exist in, many of them, especially in the turn of the twentieth century many of them with not even a word of English. And you know it’s a little bit better. But still people are arriving in this whole new alien place in which they had to adjust in all sorts of ways. They’re coming here specifically to make money. So it takes a particularly kind of individual to do that. It takes somebody who is already self-selecting. So you’re looking at a population that has, you know, has the tools, the sort of entrepreneurial, adventurous, pioneering spirit, personality, mentality. And so that already prepares them to undertake this incredibly risky process, investment if you will. I must hasten to add, by the way, that not everybody succeeded."
                                           

                                          NuttyEngDude

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                                            In my opinion, applying DO really added to his credibility and having gone on many DO interviews I can tell you how rare Asian interviewees are (with the exception of the Florida DO programs). Some Indian students will choose to go Caribbean instead of DO because of some unapparent DO stigma. Which is why a Ross University graduation can also be called "March of the Patels" (my apologies to all Patels for this joke).
                                            Hey there,
                                            Not sure how long ago this was, but I just went through a DO cycle and there were a large amount of asian interviwees at the schools I interviewed at. Perhaps this view has changed?
                                             
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                                            crimsonkid85

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                                              Lol WHAT? You can't write them off because they are immigrants? NOBODY has the same values, beliefs, and development environmental factors as AA's other than....AA's??!?!?!?

                                              Those are first generation immigrants. They are a self selecting group with different values, beliefs, and developmental environmental factors than African Americans.
                                               
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                                              NuttyEngDude

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                                                How do you guys against URM respond to an argument that for URM applicants it is much harder to get equivalent GPA/MCAT of a non-URM regardless of SES just as a function of living in American society?
                                                It depends, but if there is multigenerational poverty it becomes extremely difficult, and yes I agree with what I think you are implying that there are societal factors at play.
                                                 

                                                crimsonkid85

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                                                  Now I am totally incredulous!

                                                  Who do you think these poor Asian kids who get denied admission are??? Are they too not immigrants????

                                                  So basically you're deflecting my point by comparing apples to oranges. I have brought this up in multiple threads before but indigenous population shouldn't be compared to immigrants.

                                                  http://nclebanese.wordpress.com/201...nese-most-successful-immigrants-in-the-world/

                                                  …"Anybody who immigrates is already a self-selecting population. In other words, when you makes the decision, and this kind of goes on a larger notion. Our understanding of immigration is of these sort of desperate souls that are sort of clinging to lifeboats and arriving here and just that’s it. It’s a very nice narrative, but it’s a false narrative. In fact, most people…they don’t come here beyond the fact that most of them, the great majority of them come here to make money with the full intention of going back, by the way…These people came here, they uprooted themselves from their culture, from their family, the familiar world that they exist in, many of them, especially in the turn of the twentieth century many of them with not even a word of English. And you know it’s a little bit better. But still people are arriving in this whole new alien place in which they had to adjust in all sorts of ways. They’re coming here specifically to make money. So it takes a particularly kind of individual to do that. It takes somebody who is already self-selecting. So you’re looking at a population that has, you know, has the tools, the sort of entrepreneurial, adventurous, pioneering spirit, personality, mentality. And so that already prepares them to undertake this incredibly risky process, investment if you will. I must hasten to add, by the way, that not everybody succeeded."
                                                   

                                                  SunsFun

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                                                    Lol. I do not believe that "living in American society" causes someone to score low on the MCAT. Wtf? Take some personal responsibility, guys.
                                                    It's the nature of being treated differently. Society at large has very different set of expectations for URMs. Starting from deep childhood those children learn what it means to be black or Latino. It is a very different message than what ORMs get. They come to believe that they are innately less capable to do well in school or to test high on standardized tests. Even the ones who have rich parents are still subjects to these obviously societal pressures.
                                                     

                                                    QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                      It's the nature of being treated differently. Society at large has very different set of expectations for URMs. Starting from deep childhood those children learn what it means to be black or Latino. It is a very different message than what ORMs get. They come to believe that they are innately less capable to do well in school or to test high on standardized tests. Even the ones who have rich parents are still subjects to these obviously societal pressures.



                                                      Example: My mother is an engineer. Her entire life, she was told that women are not innately good at math. Her teacher told her she should go to school to become a nurse or a secretary. She laughed at them. In one ear, out the other. When she got a bad grade, did she cry about how society's expectations have hampered her? No! That doesn't get you anywhere. I have no sympathy for people who use that excuse.
                                                       
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                                                      SunsFun

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                                                        I don't buy it, sorry. At some point, you need to stop blaming the world for your problems and get your **** together.

                                                        Example: My mother is an engineer. Her entire life, she was told that women are not innately good at math. Her teacher told her she should go to school to become a nurse or a secretary. She laughed at them. In one ear, out the other. When she got a bad grade, did she cry about how society's expectations have hampered her? No! That doesn't get you anywhere. I have no sympathy for people who use that excuse.
                                                        Well it's not about being sympathetic. Can you at least acknowledge that it was harder for your mom because she was a woman in a male-dominated field? Can you see how some women who otherwise would have made outstanding engineers could be dissuaded from pursuing this career? Don't you think overcoming such pressures is in itself an accomplishment?
                                                         

                                                        Mad Jack

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                                                          Lol. I do not believe that "living in American society" causes someone to score low on the MCAT. Wtf? Take some personal responsibility, guys.
                                                          Rent an apartment in the North End of Hartford or the South side of Chicago for a month, work a minimum wage job, and take the bus everywhere you need to go. Then tell me the kids you saw have the same chance as somebody from an upper middle class neighborhood with two parents that weren't in prison or addicted to drugs, who didn't skip school because they were afraid of getting shot or stabbed, who got all the support financially and emotionally to go to college, and had extracurriculars and test prep paid for.

                                                          You wouldn't survive a year in the places some of these kids survived 18. That the most severely disadvantaged kids finish college at all is a miracle. Hell, there's some streets that just one kid surviving to 21 is a miracle around here. And you say, "Take some responsibility," add if it's their damn fault that they were born to a single mother with no job and have a father that is dead or in jail. Sure, Take some responsibility kid, go to school in the war zone with some of the worst teachers this country has to offer, with outdated books if you get any at all, and catch the **** up!

                                                          You don't know **** about what most of these places are like. I've lived in them for years of my life, and work in one to this day. The ignorance of people in the middle and upper class as to exactly how bad it is is astounding. But like I said, if you think I'm full of ****, go rent yourself a flat in the local ghetto for a month and live like the poor live, then get back to me.
                                                           
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                                                          UMU1030

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                                                            Hey there,
                                                            Not sure how long ago this was, but I just went through a DO cycle and there were a large amount of asian interviwees at the schools I interviewed at. Perhaps this view has changed?
                                                            There was a good number of Asians at NSU and LECOM-B. Some at CUSOM and MUCOM, but I don't remember any Asians at LMU, KCOM, or VCOM. This is not very unexpected though because these schools were very mission driven at rural med and are located in rural areas with low minority populations.
                                                             

                                                            Reckoner

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                                                              But why do you choose not to "parse through the data?" You should try to control for as many variables as possible and in this case the easiest aspects of an application which can be controlled are GPA and MCAT.

                                                              The only reason I can imagine that you're choosing not to "parse through the data specifically" is because you're hoping to someone reads "African Americans applicants are less likely to be accepted than Asian applicants" and incorrectly assumes that means "Asian applicants must not face many if any disadvantages since they're accepted at a higher rate." I can't imagine that you actually think this is the best way to analyze data (this isn't me trying to offend you, but you're a chemical engineer so I have no doubt you're quite good at math and understand statistics well).
                                                              Another thing to consider: as you control for more variables your populations get smaller (and if you're looking at URMs especially they weren't big to begin with), and it becomes harder to draw meaningful conclusions from the data. Large sample sizes are essential here, especially when you consider variability in ECs.
                                                               
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                                                              QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                Well it's not about being sympathetic. Can you at least acknowledge that it was harder for your mom because she was a woman in a male-dominated field? Can you see how some women who otherwise would have made outstanding engineers could be dissuaded from pursuing this career? Don't you think overcoming such pressures is in itself an accomplishment?

                                                                The key is, she did not use the stigma and negative stereotypes as an EXCUSE to perform poorly. She did not expect special treatment.

                                                                I have studied psychology extensively. I do not believe that stereotypes are the cause of URMs having low GPAs and MCATs. I believe the problem is largely educational (poor school systems), as well as cultural (lower expectations).
                                                                 

                                                                Mad Jack

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                                                                  Lol WHAT? You can't write them off because they are immigrants? NOBODY has the same values, beliefs, and development environmental factors as AA's other than....AA's??!?!?!?
                                                                  Africans that have immigrated to America are not the same as African Americans. Just like if an African American moves to Africa they aren't suddenly African. African Americans have a different cultural heritage than Africans, a first generation immigrant that had come to the United States as an adult and was likely an outlier in their home country to begin with is in an entirely different boat than a kid from the South Side of Chicago. To say they are the same because they have the same skin color is foolish.
                                                                   
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                                                                  QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                    Rent an apartment in the North End of Hartford or the South side of Chicago for a month, work a minimum wage job, and take the bus everywhere you need to go. Then tell me the kids you saw have the same chance as somebody from an upper middle class neighborhood with two parents that weren't in prison or addicted to drugs, who didn't skip school because they were afraid of getting shot or stabbed, who got all the support financially and emotionally to go to college, and had extracurriculars and test prep paid for.

                                                                    You wouldn't survive a year in the places some of these kids survived 18. That the most severely disadvantaged kids finish college at all is a miracle. Hell, there's some streets that just one kid surviving to 21 is a miracle around here. And you say, "Take some responsibility," add if it's their damn fault that they were born to a single mother with no job and have a father that is dead or in jail. Sure, Take some responsibility kid, go to school in the war zone with some of the worst teachers this country has to offer, with outdated books if you get any at all, and catch the **** up!

                                                                    You don't know **** about what most of these places are like. I've lived in them for years of my life, and work in one to this day. The ignorance of people in the middle and upper class as to exactly how bad it is is astounding. But like I said, if you think I'm full of ****, go rent yourself a flat in the local ghetto for a month and live like the poor live, then get back to me.

                                                                    1. I do think you are full of ****. I probably know more about this than you do.

                                                                    2. How many applicants do you really think were born in a ghetto war zone to a crack-addicted mother? Most URM applicants that I know were middle-class (or above) growing up. They have two doctor parents and are still given preference in admissions.
                                                                     

                                                                    buttercup12

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                                                                      I direct them here:

                                                                      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

                                                                      There are some black and Hispanic groups in America that far outperform some white and Asian groups. Immigrants from many West Indian and African countries, such as Jamaica, Ghana, and Haiti, are climbing America’s higher education ladder, but perhaps the most prominent are Nigerians. Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites.

                                                                      Cuban-Americans in Miami rose in one generation from widespread penury to relative affluence. By 1990, United States-born Cuban children — whose parents had arrived as exiles, many with practically nothing — were twice as likely as non-Hispanic whites to earn over $50,000 a year. All three Hispanic United States senators are Cuban-Americans.

                                                                      Meanwhile, some Asian-American groups — Cambodian- and Hmong-Americans, for example — are among the poorest in the country, as are some predominantly white communities in central Appalachia.


                                                                      Thanks for the article!
                                                                       
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                                                                      ChemEngMD

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                                                                        The key is, she did not use the stigma and negative stereotypes as an EXCUSE to perform poorly. She did not expect special treatment.

                                                                        I have studied psychology extensively. I do not believe that stereotypes are the cause of URMs having low GPAs and MCATs. I believe the problem is largely educational (poor school systems), as well as cultural (lower expectations).

                                                                        I posted an article earlier about "The Stereotype Threat' ....if you've studied social psychology you've probably heard about it. If you haven't, then I suggest you read up on it...especially if you are going to tote your psychology knowledge.

                                                                        This topic specifically addresses why some minorities (specifically Blacks and Latinos) perform poorer under test taking circumstances due to societal stereotypes that have been enforced on them since childhood.
                                                                         

                                                                        Reckoner

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                                                                          1. I do think you are full of ****. I probably know more about this than you do.

                                                                          2. How many applicants do you really think were born in a ghetto war zone to a crack-addicted mother? Most URM applicants that I know were middle-class (or above) growing up. They have two doctor parents and are still given preference in admissions.
                                                                          :troll:
                                                                           
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                                                                          crimsonkid85

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                                                                            Mad Jack and SunsFun, I completely agree with you immigrants are a different population compared to indigenous AA's. I truly was not trying to equate Nigerians with African Americans (I can be culturally clueless sometimes...but I'm not THAT bad, haha).

                                                                            However, my point was that just because they are different populations does not mean one cannot compare them -- in fact, admissions committees MUST do this every day, whether they like to or not. And if we do try to compare them, I guess the question is -- how should the Asian immigrant compare to the indigenous AA (which I honestly thought was the comparison this whole time...).

                                                                            Africans that have immigrated to America are not the same as African Americans. Just like if an African American moves to Africa they aren't suddenly African. African Americans have a different cultural heritage than Africans, a first generation immigrant that had come to the United States as an adult and was likely an outlier in their home country to begin with is in an entirely different boat than a kid from the South Side of Chicago. To say they are the same because they have the same skin color is foolish.
                                                                            I am sorry but I can't understand what you're trying to say here.
                                                                             

                                                                            buttercup12

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                                                                              Lol WHAT? You can't write them off because they are immigrants? NOBODY has the same values, beliefs, and development environmental factors as AA's other than....AA's??!?!?!?

                                                                              Was going to reply to this, but @Mad Jack beat me to it. As a first generation immigrant Africa if you think that we are the same as AAs... well hate to break it to ya but we're not.

                                                                              EDIT: just saw your post!

                                                                              Africans that have immigrated to America are not the same as African Americans. Just like if an African American moves to Africa they aren't suddenly African. African Americans have a different cultural heritage than Africans, a first generation immigrant that had come to the United States as an adult and was likely an outlier in their home country to begin with is in an entirely different boat than a kid from the South Side of Chicago. To say they are the same because they have the same skin color is foolish.
                                                                               

                                                                              SunsFun

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                                                                                The key is, she did not use the stigma and negative stereotypes as an EXCUSE to perform poorly. She did not expect special treatment.

                                                                                I have studied psychology extensively. I do not believe that stereotypes are the cause of URMs having low GPAs and MCATs. I believe the problem is largely educational (poor school systems), as well as cultural (lower expectations).
                                                                                Isn't the problem of lower expectations in out culture is what I was talking about all alone?
                                                                                 

                                                                                XmedBarney

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                                                                                  buttercup12

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                                                                                    Excuse me? If anyone is the troll here, it's the posters claiming that all URM applicants were born in gang-riddled, drug-infested ghettos. I have many URM friends in medical school, and they are all from much wealthier families than I am from. You are stereotyping URMs.

                                                                                    That's the point. Your URM friends are in MEDICAL SCHOOL, they made it and that's great! However this isn't true for all URM especially. So maybe you should stop pigeonholing URMs into the nice little categories as you see them in your life.
                                                                                     

                                                                                    QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                                      Isn't the problem of lower expectations in out culture is what I was talking about all alone?

                                                                                      I am talking about lower expectations within the family. I have worked extensively in underserved communities, with Asian, Hispanic, and African-American people. Based on my observations, I can safely say that there are different academic expectations among different cultures.
                                                                                       

                                                                                      Reckoner

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                                                                                        Excuse me? If anyone is the troll here, it's the posters claiming that all URM applicants were born in gang-riddled, drug-infested ghettos. I have many URM friends in medical school, and they are all from much wealthier families than I am from. You are stereotyping URMs.
                                                                                        A straw man and an anecdotal argument all rolled into one? Impressive.
                                                                                         
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