nurse arrested (but not booked) for trying to stop illegal blood draw

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Birdstrike, What angered me and others was that you were justifying the cop's behavior and proudly so without having any facts.
Not true. I never said the cop's arrest was "justified." You're falsely quoting me.

Hypothetical discussion of how the ethics of a situation would change if certain hypotheticals were in play, does not equal endorsing something as ethically okay. When one discusses a subject, in the manner of "how would it change things
"if" such and such hypothetical was in play, or "if this possible scenario is found to have happened, how would that change things" doesn't equal ethical endorsement of the hypothetical.

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You know you've lost the argument when you start trying to dig up personal stuff on the other guy.

I agree, it was phrased as a cheap shot.

However, the reason he looked at your profile is the way you're talking has a fragrance which lacks of experience. When you compared blood draws to biopsies of livers and setting "compound fractures" *eye-roll*, I looked up your profile too.

Yes it's an anonymous internet forum that anyone can join. But its true value is as a forum where ED doctors can have discussions with other ED doctors who share common experiences.

When a pre-health student insults and tells a bunch of practicing physicians how to do their job, that's where you lose me.

* Ignore *
 
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Actually the law says no such thing. At all.
I'm glad someone pointed this out.

If a gang-banger decides to revenge a GSW patient in the trauma bay, nothing says I have to go Kevin-Costner-bodyguard-style to fulfill my obligation to the law. Or to get hero points with the "subordinate" nursing staff for that matter.
 
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Birdstrike, are you sure this wasn't your patient? I watched the video and noticed the doctor is nowhere in sight ;)
 
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Birdstrike, are you sure this wasn't your patient? I watched the video and noticed the doctor is nowhere in sight ;)

Lol. Good one. No.

You seem to be implying that the patient's doctor (and most of an entire ED crew) was not seen on the video getting in the middle of the situation, during what was an increasingly tense situation which had to be impossible to miss.
 
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Did I miss something in this link? Where does it say the doctor has to protect his patients from someone coming in and assaulting them?

Nobody here said that one needs to fight a cop or take a bullet. That is a misrepresentation of the original position.
 
Not true. I never said the cop's arrest was "justified." You're falsely quoting me.

Hypothetical discussion of how the ethics of a situation would change if certain hypotheticals were in play, does not equal endorsing something as ethically okay. When one discusses a subject, in the manner of "how would it change things
"if" such and such hypothetical was in play, or "if this possible scenario is found to have happened, how would that change things" doesn't equal ethical endorsement of the hypothetical.

You were trying to muddy the waters in order to lessen the cop's blame.
 
Lol. Good one. No.

You seem to be implying that the patient's doctor (and most of an entire ED crew) was not seen on the video getting in the middle of the situation, during what was an increasingly tense situation which had to be impossible to miss.

Yup. One might even call this, "A Retrospective Case Study Analysis on Emergency Physician Decisions During Police Encounters." Doesn't get more real-world-what-would-you-do? than this.

Let's be honest here. This is not a case of defending an innocent victim from a brutal criminal with mal-intentions. This is a case of Policy vs Policy. One employee trying to follow directions vs another trying to do the same. The nurse is trying to defend her hospital's policy and the cop has orders from "watch command" to arrest the nurse if she doesn't allow him to get blood. Nobody won.

By the way, imagine you're stroking your inner altruism, step in the middle and are arrested. Who's going to run the ED? Are you single coverage? if not, now the other docs will have to pull extra weight. Not to mention the patients on your list that don't get signed out.
 
I agree, it was phrased as a cheap shot.

However, the reason he looked at your profile is the way you're talking has a fragrance which lacks of experience. When you compared blood draws to biopsies of livers and setting "compound fractures" *eye-roll*, I looked up your profile too.

Yes it's an anonymous internet forum that anyone can join. But its true value is as a forum where ED doctors can have discussions with other ED doctors who share common experiences.

When a pre-health student insults and tells a bunch of practicing physicians how to do their job, that's where you lose me.

* Ignore *
Man, I so want to be done with this but you want to take shots at me while I'm on my way out.

Yes, I compared those different procedures, well spotted, friend. I might also compare stealing a candy bar with bank robbery, to show that stealing is stealing, no matter the scale of the theft. This very basic analogy sailed serenely over your head, and incredibly you are even mocking me as though I don't get it! The irony, it burns!

And yes I came onto your little page and tweaked one of you for advocating hiding in the potty during a crisis. Deal with it. Your response: "hey this is our safe place, quit coming here and triggering us!" Come on now snowflake. That's not the big strong boy your momma raised you up to be.

Please follow through with your *ignore* comment and you'll never hear from me again.
 
Started the day with 1:15 hour of power yoga. Went to the beach (took about 3 minutes to drive there from my house) with the wife and kids. 82F, beautiful, not a cloud in the sky. Taught my kids to ride some waves. Worked on my handstand on the beach, with tips from a 9 year old girl. Got up a few times. Fell a bunch. Watched the kids play. Admired my wife. Did a whole lot more of nuthin'. You gotta live like you're on vacation. Life is good.
 
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Let's be honest here. This is not a case of defending an innocent victim from a brutal criminal with mal-intentions. This is a case of Policy vs Policy. One employee trying to follow directions vs another trying to do the same. The nurse is trying to defend her hospital's policy and the cop has orders from "watch command" to arrest the nurse if she doesn't allow him to get blood. Nobody won.

BAMM!!!!!!!! FTW!
 
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Would anyone allow some random person off the street to come in the hospital to collect blood from a patient? Bc in this case the officer had no more right to the blood than a random stranger coming in and trying to draw blood on the patient.

If I were the nurse, I would not have physically or actively tried to stop the cop from drawing blood, I would have called hospital security and I would have called 911 on the cop.
 
Would anyone allow some random person off the street to come in the hospital to collect blood from a patient? Bc in this case the officer had no more right to the blood than a random stranger coming in and trying to draw blood on the patient.

If I were the nurse, I would not have physically or actively tried to stop the cop from drawing blood, I would have called hospital security and I would have called 911 on the cop.

Exactly. I would have told the "random person" to stop, then called security. Same as what should have happened in this situation. If security is ineffective, then there's nothing more I can do.
 
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Yup. One might even call this, "A Retrospective Case Study Analysis on Emergency Physician Decisions During Police Encounters." Doesn't get more real-world-what-would-you-do? than this.

Let's be honest here. This is not a case of defending an innocent victim from a brutal criminal with mal-intentions. This is a case of Policy vs Policy. One employee trying to follow directions vs another trying to do the same. The nurse is trying to defend her hospital's policy and the cop has orders from "watch command" to arrest the nurse if she doesn't allow him to get blood. Nobody won.

By the way, imagine you're stroking your inner altruism, step in the middle and are arrested. Who's going to run the ED? Are you single coverage? if not, now the other docs will have to pull extra weight. Not to mention the patients on your list that don't get signed out.

The police officer here did not have probable cause to get a warrant, did not have a warrant with him for the blood draw, and could not get consent from the comatose patient. Additionally, this was against departmental policy, against state law and ultimately runs directly against the Supreme Court ruling in 2016. This is not a policy vs policy debate.

Nonetheless, there is only so much you can do against a determined police officer wanting to do something illegal or unethical. There are better responses and actions to deal with this contemporaneously including calling the police supervisor or chief, sheriff and state troopers to come to your aid as well as getting hospital administration to come down and deal with the mess.

Record, document and file a lawsuit in court after the fact.

Your duty as a physician to your patient has been unduly curtailed due to exigent circumstances.
 
Record, document and file a lawsuit in court after the fact...

Ugh... :( Is this good karma for a group of professionals who are constantly charting against potential lawsuits?

BTW, has anyone here ever tried calling the police on the police? I've seen patients try it. I'll give you a hint; it doesn't work!
 
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Ugh... :( Is this good karma for a group of professionals who are constantly charting against potential lawsuits?

BTW, has anyone here ever tried calling the police on the police? I've seen patients try it. I'll give you a hint; it doesn't work!

You don't call the police. You call the media. The police hate the media because it stops them from abusin... I mean... having their god given right to fun because "they are the law."
 
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It's kind of embarrassing how many people on here have apparently not read the Bill of Rights...
 
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Would anyone allow some random person off the street to come in the hospital to collect blood from a patient? Bc in this case the officer had no more right to the blood than a random stranger coming in and trying to draw blood on the patient.

If I were the nurse, I would not have physically or actively tried to stop the cop from drawing blood, I would have called hospital security and I would have called 911 on the cop.

(The cop was wrong and the nurse was right.)


As far as your plan to "call hospital security," hospital security was there, can clearly be seen in the video and did nothing. The nurse came out later and said she was told by security they were not going to stop the cops. But let's get serious here. Do you really expect a private security group to shoot it out with the cops, to prevent a blood draw? And if the hospital security is unarmed, how exactly do you think they're going to stop an armed cop, who's not listening to reason, any better than you're going to stop them armed with your stethoscope?

Calling "911" would just get you the cops or an ambulance, all of whom were already all there. And if I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong) there was a supervising officer already there who has since been suspended also, and who at the time backed his cop up (guy talking to nurse while she's in the car, lecturing her on how wrong he thought she was). And if your 'random person' who wanted to draw blood was armed as the cop was, and security does nothing and the random person is 911, and the cops supervisor who is 911 is telling him to arrest you, and you're not going to stop the armed person with your computer mouse and stethoscope, then once again, you have no workable plan to stop an unreasonable armed person (cop or not), who's clearly willing to step outside of bounds of clearly defined protocol, from getting the blood draw.

There are two issues at play here:

1-Proper policing. This specific police department needs to do better and make sure their own officers know and follow their own protocols and state and federal laws. They've admitted as much.

2-What to do when face with an armed and unreasonable person, when the guys you usually call to deal with armed unreasonable people, are the same people. It is NOT an easy situation to know how to deal with.

One can be "internet brave" and talk about what hereoics they employ in a similar situation (as if they're MMA fighters skilled in disarming unreasonable cops with their stethoscope) but when words and reason fail and you're faced with an armed and unreasonable person (cop or not) you're at their mercy, unfortunately, in the immediate moment. Ultimately, when the situation is over and reforms can be made and the legal process can take over, future similar situations can be hopefully be avoided, but that doesn't make dealing with an armed and unreasonable person in the immediate situation, any easier or without risk. One has to decide how much risk they want to expose themself to, when dealing with someone who's armed and not listening to reason, or following protocols one would expect them to follow. I will give credit where credit is due: The nurse was very brave in this situation. She was. But everyone has to decide on their own, how they would react in such a situation. And it can sometime be impossible to know how one's self will act in such a situation, until it actually happens.

(The cop was wrong and the nurse was right.)
 
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Actually it does. Go ask your hospital attorney or legal department. But is it your argument that it merely violates your ethics?
Actually, it doesn't. I am lawfully obligated only to provide medical treatment for my patient. As a physician, I am not responsible for protecting my patient from outside harm. If I'm seeing a patient and someone comes in and starts kicking his ass, I am absolutely not required to defend the patient. There is a chance, after all, that I'm mistaken. So why don't you find me the law that says otherwise.

I also don't see anything in the AMA Code of Medical ethics about protecting my patients from external harm (though I'll admit I don't have the whole thing memorized). So again, why don't you find that part for me and prove me wrong.
 
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Ugh... :( Is this good karma for a group of professionals who are constantly charting against potential lawsuits?

BTW, has anyone here ever tried calling the police on the police? I've seen patients try it. I'll give you a hint; it doesn't work!

Do you remember the case of the U Cincinnati officer that tried to abuse someone during a routine traffic stop? The guy called the police on him and it worked, FWIW. I'll try to find the video later but basically the officer's supervisor came in, reprimanded the officer, and apologized to the dude.
 
Its kind of embarrassing how you seem to think anyone here believes the police officer was in the right
There have been at least a few who argued that basically upholding the "hospital's policy" was not worth it, and one who was teetering on the edge of arguing for the police before finding out the search was indeed unlawful (but only bc the police admitted they lacked probable cause, not bc of the lack of warrant; probable cause=warrant, so the argument was very poor). Maybe you should go back and read the entire thread and pay attention to the framing of the arguments. She prevented a HIPAA violation and the violation of the patient's right against unlawful search and seizure. You can disagree with my opinion of her doing the right thing, but they are very clearly people one here who don't understand the law and that it was more than just hospital policy (not talking about you).
 
I don't usually post on opinion forums but for this story I have a lot of respect for that nurse. Some people would have given in and been intimidated but she stood her ground and did what was right. Sometimes you see things go wrong in the medical profession but when you see someone doing something right, it increases your confidence in the system.
 
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I think what is being overlooked is what is most egregious here. I may be wrong--and someone correct me if I am--but the police officer arrested her and then never booked her. He was abusing his authority here out of anger.

Imagine if you get in an argument with someone who then turns out to be a cop. They then "arrest" you but don't really plan on booking you, just doing that to exert power and intimidate.
 
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There have been at least a few who argued that basically upholding the "hospital's policy" was not worth it, and one who was teetering on the edge of arguing for the police before finding out the search was indeed unlawful (but only bc the police admitted they lacked probable cause, not bc of the lack of warrant; probable cause=warrant, so the argument was very poor). Maybe you should go back and read the entire thread and pay attention to the framing of the arguments. She prevented a HIPAA violation and the violation of the patient's right against unlawful search and seizure. You can disagree with my opinion of her doing the right thing, but they are very clearly people one here who don't understand the law and that it was more than just hospital policy (not talking about you).
I'm confused. In the first 2 pages, the closest I saw to "teetering on the edge" was something to the effect of "if the officer had probable cause". What cops can and can't do when they have probable cause is quite complex and hardly an indictment of our civic knowledge that we don't know every aspect of it.

The rest were various ways of saying "I'm not going to risk arrest/beat down by angry cop over a blood draw".
 
I'm confused. In the first 2 pages, the closest I saw to "teetering on the edge" was something to the effect of "if the officer had probable cause". What cops can and can't do when they have probable cause is quite complex and hardly an indictment of our civic knowledge that we don't know every aspect of it.

The rest were various ways of saying "I'm not going to risk arrest/beat down by angry cop over a blood draw".
took me two seconds to pull this from the first page, not sure what you're reading: "He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom."
Not gonna sift back through it all just bc you aren't willing to, or are blatantly overlooking it. Not surprised seeing as though you somehow interpreted me saying "people are ignorant of the law" as me saying "people are saying the cop was in the right!?" (which, if you meant morally, I never thought or said).
EDIT: and the teetering on the edge part (which had little to do with my main point, came from someone saying something along the lines of 'the other officer said she may have been interfering with a lawful search...so this could get interesting.' Which again, I realize is not actually thinking the cops could be right...but ignores them being blatantly in the wrong, legally.
 
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took me two seconds to pull this from the first page, not sure what you're reading: "He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom."
Not gonna sift back through it all just bc you aren't willing to, or are blatantly overlooking it. Not surprised seeing as though you somehow interpreted me saying "people are ignorant of the law" as me saying "people are saying the cop was in the right!?" (which I never thought or said).
You're obviously ignoring the context of that post (because I remember seeing that myself). The post that contains that is pissed off at the administrator telling the nurse that its hospital policy not to let the police draw blood without the patient's consent sans a warrant. End of statement. There was no mention of laws, civil rights, or anything else. It was purely a rant based on what the nurse was being told by someone who wasn't facing down a police officer. The post then goes on to say that in a similar situation the poster would have just left the scene to avoid being arrested/assaulted by the police officer.

Context matters.

And you didn't say "ignorant of the law", which I would agree with you about, you said "It's kind of embarrassing how many people on here have apparently not read the Bill of Rights..." which is entirely different.
 
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You're obviously ignoring the context of that post (because I remember seeing that myself). The post that contains that is pissed off at the administrator telling the nurse that its hospital policy not to let the police draw blood without the patient's consent sans a warrant. End of statement. There was no mention of laws, civil rights, or anything else. It was purely a rant based on what the nurse was being told by someone who wasn't facing down a police officer. The post then goes on to say that in a similar situation the poster would have just left the scene to avoid being arrested/assaulted by the police officer.

Context matters.

And you didn't say "ignorant of the law", which I would agree with you about, you said "It's kind of embarrassing how many people on here have apparently not read the Bill of Rights..." which is entirely different.
I know the context, but word-choice matters too. Yes, he is upset that the administrator is influencing her to act in a way that he interprets as putting her in harms way, but he also is very clear that he thinks the basis for it is just a bureaucratic policy thought up by people who would never be in the trenches themselves. It wasn't. It was based on law, not just created by administrators arbitrarily. The wording sounds pretty clear to me.

I was referring to the fourth amendment, which has been the basis for the established case law and policies...so no not that different.
 
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Npr just had a piece about the hospital announcing a new policy that all leos will have to go check in at the front desk with an administrator to review their request before entering the ED.

It seems like they are doing the same thing the officer did, they got offended and are now overreacting. Just call the dept and sit down to go over protocols for the future and make sure everyone is on the same page
 
Actually, it doesn't. I am lawfully obligated only to provide medical treatment for my patient. As a physician, I am not responsible for protecting my patient from outside harm. If I'm seeing a patient and someone comes in and starts kicking his ass, I am absolutely not required to defend the patient. There is a chance, after all, that I'm mistaken. So why don't you find me the law that says otherwise.

I also don't see anything in the AMA Code of Medical ethics about protecting my patients from external harm (though I'll admit I don't have the whole thing memorized). So again, why don't you find that part for me and prove me wrong.
I'm going to respectfully disagree, tell you why, and then try to be done with this thread. I don't like arguing with senior SDN'ers, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, and I accept that you guys are in there doing this, and I have a long way to go. I have my own experiences which are not insignificant, but I'm just not here to have super-heated debates and piss people off. This is why I backed off this debate earlier.

Having said that, I respectfully decline to root through the ethical code and serve up on a silver platter the section that says medical professionals have a basic duty to provide a reasonably safe and secure environment for their unconscious patients. It is there, I assure you, and please check with your own OLC or whatever you have, if you don't think it is.

Now, onto the question of what "the law" requires you to do.

Preliminarily, if you are an ER doc, even if you are an independent contractor, your actions probably engender liability on the part of the hospital. So in that sense your professional duty may be larger in scope than you think, if we define duty simply as any obligation the breach of which creates liability to the person to whom the duty is owed.

So let's understand what "the law" encompasses. It is not only regulations and statutes, but also the common law. So as other posters have suggested, let's pretend that someone came into your hospital, and said "Hi I am here to assault your patient, where is she?" And let's say that you tell this person "right over there," and you take no further action, whereupon your unconscious patient is promptly assaulted by this person. Your actions -- or omissions -- are a breach of the standard of care. I sincerely promise you, there exists a duty to provide some minimal degree of safety when you assume the care of unconscious persons.

What if an unconscious patient had a light fixture fall on her head. The hospital could be liable. If you as the physician saw the light fixture dangling precariously, and did nothing, claiming it is not your job to repair fixtures, I predict that you could be liable, or at least your actions would cement and exacerbate the hospital's liability. This is an analogy, and I hope it makes the point without precipitating further distinctions and digressions.

Now, you can argue that this duty doesn't extend to a confrontation with law enforcement officers. That may well find receptive ears, but it probably would be a question of fact for a jury to decide, so you're going to trial on that. OK? I don't think that's where you want to be if you ran away and hid, leaving your nurse to deal with the deranged police officer.

So "the law" -- specifically the common law of physician and hospital liability*** -- says you must take basic, reasonable measures to prevent harm from befalling your unconscious patient. The extent to which that law might require you to resist a law enforcement officer is very debatable, and quite frankly, you might not know until a jury verdict comes back. Sometimes that is the only way to define the outer boundaries of the law: take it to trial and see.

If you don't believe me, please, ask your own OLC or your own medmal attorney. Ask them, "would I (or the hospital if you are an ER doc) be liable if I did nothing whatsoever to stop someone who stated an intention to assault my unconscious patient?" You might defeat the plaintiff at trial, but you would be facing liability, because the plaintiff can show you breached the standard of care by totally ignoring an imminent assault, rather than taking "reasonable" measures to prevent the assault, i.e. calling security, or even just saying "no you can't do that, please leave."

***If you find the phrasing "against the law" to be more suggestive of a criminal or regulatory infraction, then I can accept that, and perhaps it was not the best phrase for me to use, even if technically correct.***

TL/DR -- if you can be held civilly liable for something, it is against "the law," and you can certainly be held liable for unreasonably failing to take basic precautions to protect your unconscious patient from harm.
 
Would anyone allow some random person off the street to come in the hospital to collect blood from a patient? Bc in this case the officer had no more right to the blood than a random stranger coming in and trying to draw blood on the patient.

If I were the nurse, I would not have physically or actively tried to stop the cop from drawing blood, I would have called hospital security and I would have called 911 on the cop.
took me two seconds to pull this from the first page, not sure what you're reading: "He's pushing the defenseless nurse to defy the cop based on some pointy-headed policy created by suits in a boardroom."
Not gonna sift back through it all just bc you aren't willing to, or are blatantly overlooking it. Not surprised seeing as though you somehow interpreted me saying "people are ignorant of the law" as me saying "people are saying the cop was in the right!?" (which, if you meant morally, I never thought or said).
EDIT: and the teetering on the edge part (which had little to do with my main point, came from someone saying something along the lines of 'the other officer said she may have been interfering with a lawful search...so this could get interesting.' Which again, I realize is not actually thinking the cops could be right...but ignores them being blatantly in the wrong, legally.
Everyone seems to agree the cop went out of bounds and essentially assaulted the nurse. She was brave in defending the policy and law. Are you willing to undergo unlawful arrest, and subject yourself to assault, to protect a hospital policy and illegal blood draw?
 
Everyone seems to agree the cop went out of bounds and essentially assaulted the nurse. She was brave in defending the policy and law. Are you willing to undergo unlawful arrest, and subject yourself to assault, to protect a hospital policy and illegal blood draw?
What I would do has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
 
Npr just had a piece about the hospital announcing a new policy that all leos will have to go check in at the front desk with an administrator to review their request before entering the ED.
How does "moving it to the front desk" do anything but move the problem to the front desk?
 
How does "moving it to the front desk" do anything but move the problem to the front desk?
I'm with you on that 100%

It's a policy for show. In reality what will calm that dept down was the publicity
 
What I would do has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
What would you do?
What I would do has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
(The nurse was brave. The nurse was right, the cop was wrong)

Ok. But still, what would you do, then?

Would you risk unlawful arrest, and assault from an armed and unreasonable cop, to prevent an illegal blood draw?

Yes or no?
 
You don't call the police. You call the media. The police hate the media because it stops them from abusin... I mean... having their god given right to fun because "they are the law."
Interesting suggestion. Might work. But when you're dealing with someone angry and unreasonable, it's hard to know if it would diffuse the situation or make them more angry, while the media is on the way.
 
I think what is being overlooked is what is most egregious here. I may be wrong--and someone correct me if I am--but the police officer arrested her and then never booked her. He was abusing his authority here out of anger.
Correct

Imagine if you get in an argument with someone who then turns out to be a cop. They then "arrest" you but don't really plan on booking you, just doing that to exert power and intimidate.

Cops arrest people all the time that end up being found not guilty, have charges dropped or end up not having charges filed. You can civilly sue for that and people do all the time. I'm not sure how successful those cases are. My guess is that most don't get very far but that some are successful. And I agree, it would be infuriating to be subject to that, especially if injured during the arrest. And it's not right, but it happens all the time that people are arrested without formal charge.
 
Correct

Cops arrest people all the time that end up being found not guilty, have charges dropped or end up not having charges filed. You can civilly sue for that and people do all the time. I'm not sure how successful those cases are. My guess is that most don't get very far but that some are successful. And I agree, it would be infuriating to be subject to that, especially if injured during the arrest. And it's not right, but it happens all the time that people are arrested without formal charge.
There is a saying for this: "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Meaning you may not get convicted, but your ass is going to jail, posting bond, hiring a lawyer, being humiliated, losing reputation, jeopardizing employment, etc. And your suspicions are correct, false arrest claims are usually a waste of time. You probably can't even find a lawyer who will take one unless you were Rodney King'ed right on video. Too hard to win otherwise.
 
I know the context, but word-choice matters too. Yes, he is upset that the administrator is influencing her to act in a way that he interprets as putting her in harms way, but he also is very clear that he thinks the basis for it is just a bureaucratic policy thought up by people who would never be in the trenches themselves. It wasn't. It was based on law, not just created by administrators arbitrarily. The wording sounds pretty clear to me.

I was referring to the fourth amendment, which has been the basis for the established case law and policies...so no not that different.
We can always ask the poster, but I didn't see anything about law in that post.

I know what amendment you're referencing, and if it was always that clear cut we wouldn't need a Supreme Court to routinely tell us how each potential action by the police measures up to the amendment so yes, its obviously quite different from basic laws.
 
(The nurse was right and brave, and the cop was wrong.)

By the way. For those of you who have hypothetically pledged to risk false arrest, assault and maybe worse, from an angry and unreasonable armed cop to prevent a blood draw, what happens if you go through all that, and it turns out the did have a warrant, or they did have probable cause, or the warrant you thought was invalid, was valid?
 
(The nurse was right and brave, and the cop was wrong.)

By the way. For those of you who have hypothetically pledged to risk false arrest, assault and maybe worse, from an angry and unreasonable armed cop to prevent a blood draw, what happens if you go through all that, and it turns out the did have a warrant, or they did have probable cause, or the warrant you thought was invalid, was valid?
I think that's a very fair question...

1)anyone actually under arrest and in police custody? I'm not getting involved if the officer does it, that's on them.
2) If they want me to do it for them? I'll just need to see the warrant. I'm not a warrant inspector, you give me something that says warrant and it's not obviously in crayon on a napkin.....you get your vial of blood.

I think the important thing here was the cop saying openly the guy wasn't arrested and they didn't have a warrant.
 
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I'm going to respectfully disagree, tell you why, and then try to be done with this thread. I don't like arguing with senior SDN'ers, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, and I accept that you guys are in there doing this, and I have a long way to go. I have my own experiences which are not insignificant, but I'm just not here to have super-heated debates and piss people off. This is why I backed off this debate earlier.

Having said that, I respectfully decline to root through the ethical code and serve up on a silver platter the section that says medical professionals have a basic duty to provide a reasonably safe and secure environment for their unconscious patients. It is there, I assure you, and please check with your own OLC or whatever you have, if you don't think it is.

Now, onto the question of what "the law" requires you to do.

Preliminarily, if you are an ER doc, even if you are an independent contractor, your actions probably engender liability on the part of the hospital. So in that sense your professional duty may be larger in scope than you think, if we define duty simply as any obligation the breach of which creates liability to the person to whom the duty is owed.

So let's understand what "the law" encompasses. It is not only regulations and statutes, but also the common law. So as other posters have suggested, let's pretend that someone came into your hospital, and said "Hi I am here to assault your patient, where is she?" And let's say that you tell this person "right over there," and you take no further action, whereupon your unconscious patient is promptly assaulted by this person. Your actions -- or omissions -- are a breach of the standard of care. I sincerely promise you, there exists a duty to provide some minimal degree of safety when you assume the care of unconscious persons.

What if an unconscious patient had a light fixture fall on her head. The hospital could be liable. If you as the physician saw the light fixture dangling precariously, and did nothing, claiming it is not your job to repair fixtures, I predict that you could be liable, or at least your actions would cement and exacerbate the hospital's liability. This is an analogy, and I hope it makes the point without precipitating further distinctions and digressions.

Now, you can argue that this duty doesn't extend to a confrontation with law enforcement officers. That may well find receptive ears, but it probably would be a question of fact for a jury to decide, so you're going to trial on that. OK? I don't think that's where you want to be if you ran away and hid, leaving your nurse to deal with the deranged police officer.

So "the law" -- specifically the common law of physician and hospital liability*** -- says you must take basic, reasonable measures to prevent harm from befalling your unconscious patient. The extent to which that law might require you to resist a law enforcement officer is very debatable, and quite frankly, you might not know until a jury verdict comes back. Sometimes that is the only way to define the outer boundaries of the law: take it to trial and see.

If you don't believe me, please, ask your own OLC or your own medmal attorney. Ask them, "would I (or the hospital if you are an ER doc) be liable if I did nothing whatsoever to stop someone who stated an intention to assault my unconscious patient?" You might defeat the plaintiff at trial, but you would be facing liability, because the plaintiff can show you breached the standard of care by totally ignoring an imminent assault, rather than taking "reasonable" measures to prevent the assault, i.e. calling security, or even just saying "no you can't do that, please leave."

***If you find the phrasing "against the law" to be more suggestive of a criminal or regulatory infraction, then I can accept that, and perhaps it was not the best phrase for me to use, even if technically correct.***

TL/DR -- if you can be held civilly liable for something, it is against "the law," and you can certainly be held liable for unreasonably failing to take basic precautions to protect your unconscious patient from harm.
You are wrong in most of this.

Having a medical license, I know what is legally required of me. Protecting my patients from assault is not. Period. End of story.

Ethically it is trickier since we're supposed to put patient's welfare above our own, but its obviously not a black-and-white statement. No one expects doctors to throw themselves in front of patients during active-shooter type events. Its more commonly upheld for things like "your patients need of care outweighs your need of sleep/kids' little league games/lunch". You're not expected to die for a patient's well being.

In your absurd analogy, there is a huge difference between telling a would-be assaulter where a patient is (your example) and not throwing yourself on a would-be assaulter who has already found your patient and is about to beat them (my example). The former is you actively helping the assailant assault your patient. The latter is taking no active action whatsoever. Its the difference between handing the bank robber a gun versus not trying to tackle the bank robber when he's pointing a gun at the teller.
 
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I know the context, but word-choice matters too. Yes, he is upset that the administrator is influencing her to act in a way that he interprets as putting her in harms way, but he also is very clear that he thinks the basis for it is just a bureaucratic policy thought up by people who would never be in the trenches themselves. It wasn't. It was based on law, not just created by administrators arbitrarily. The wording sounds pretty clear to me.
The reason I made that comment, was that it was upsetting to clearly see the nurse in a very tense situation, with her in the middle of a fight between a cop and an administrative policy, and her being expected to enforce it, NOT administration, NOT security, not anyone else, but an unarmed nurse. Although the administrator was on the phone trying to diffuse the situation (which is better than not answering his phone) and said (paraphrasing) "If you arrest the nurse, you're making a mistake." What I would have liked to have heard, was "Stop. Leave the nurse alone. She didn't write this policy. We, the administrators did, along with your department. Leave the nurse alone, and I'll be down there to handle it."

So, it's infuriating to me, that she was put in the middle, and had to be subjected to unlawful arrest and assault, for a policy she did not write. And even though there are obviously also relevant laws that govern the situation, she didn't write those either.

As far as the laws regarding the situation go, my initial confusion regarding the situation was as to whether the cops had a warrant or didn't, had probable cause or didn't. Those facts do matter and matter incredibly so! If you don't think so, go and try preventing a cop from serving a valid warrant. Or maybe trying blocking a cop from serving a warrant you're certain doesn't exist or isn't valid, only to find out it does exist or is valid!

Plus, some of you were aware of the case from a month ago. Others were just hearing about it that day and didn't yet have all the information, and were trying to learn about it, while commenting. It gets pretty damn complicated when you start adding or removing certain hypotheticals. And to expect someone to have all the information, immediately, from a couple SDN posts, is not reasonable. Also, any forum where you're not able to discuss various hypotheticals is not a very good one.
 
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I think that's a very fair question...

1)anyone actually under arrest and in police custody? I'm not getting involved if the officer does it, that's on them.
2) If they want me to do it for them? I'll just need to see the warrant. I'm not a warrant inspector, you give me something that says warrant and it's not obviously in crayon on a napkin.....you get your vial of blood.

I think the important thing here was the cop saying openly the guy wasn't arrested and they didn't have a warrant.
None of the scenarios involved a cop demanding a doc draw blood. It involves a cop that wants to go do it himself. The question is 100% about whether or not you'd act to stop it.

Didn't you initially said you'd throw your hands up, get between the cop and the patient, and start screaming? Now all of a sudden there's several bail out scenarios that include "not getting involved."
 
You initially said you'd throw your hands up, get between the cop and the patient, and start screaming. Now all of a sudden there's several bail out scenarios that include "not getting involved"
an officer with a clear reason/justification to get the blood (as was just described in the scenario of someone under arrest or with a warrant) vs the situation with that nurse where the officer clearly stated not having justification?

yes. yes, I would treat very different situations very differently.
 
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(The nurse was right and brave, and the cop was wrong.)

By the way. For those of you who have hypothetically pledged to risk false arrest, assault and maybe worse, from an angry and unreasonable armed cop to prevent a blood draw, what happens if you go through all that, and it turns out the did have a warrant, or they did have probable cause, or the warrant you thought was invalid, was valid?

I have no problem now with your updated view. As I said previously, I personally would not risk false arrest. On the other hand, the nurse is right and brave for doing so, although from the video I think the cop's decision seemed unexpected. I'd have to watch it again, but he didn't even issue a clear warning: "If you continue to refuse, I am going to arrest you." At that point in time, I'd personally have backed off, although I am sure there are braver and more principled people who would stand up to the cop even after that.

Lastly, I wanted to say something on VA doctor's comments about how the law doesn't require you to prevent outside assault. But then I realized that rabbott1971 responded adequately to this. It seems that he has a much stronger command of medical ethics than some practicing physicians, which is a testament to our failure of teaching medical ethics during our pre-medical, medical, or residency training. This failure is something that is discussed in the medical ethics literature.

In your absurd analogy, there is a huge difference between telling a would-be assaulter where a patient is (your example) and not throwing yourself on a would-be assaulter who has already found your patient and is about to beat them (my example).

I disagree. The example rabbot1971 gave, i.e. telling a would-be assaulter where a patient is, is much closer to the situation being discussed than the example you give. When a police officer enters an ED, I have to tell him where the patient is and also give him permission to enter into a patient area. I can deny permission and also not tell him where the patient is. This is therefore much closer to the example rabbot1971 gave.
 
an officer with a clear reason/justification to get the blood (as was just described in the scenario of someone under arrest or with a warrant) vs the situation with that nurse where the officer clearly stated not having justification?

yes. yes, I would treat very different situations very differently.

Sb247 has hit the nail on its head.

There is a ton of obfuscation going on in this thread.
 
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an officer with a clear reason/justification to get the blood (as was just described in the scenario of someone under arrest or with a warrant) vs the situation with that nurse where the officer clearly stated not having justification?

yes. yes, I would treat very different situations very differently.
How so?
 
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