Nursing School Vs Med School, no comparison.

[Critical Mass REACHED]

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As someone who is about to complete medical school, and who went through nursing school for a BSN, the knowledge gap between the two is exponential. In light of recent arguments made by militant nurses who argue that the required nursing courses to complete an associates degree or BSN is just as good as medical school. First you take an A&P, 101 course on microbiology, a introductory 12 week course in "orgo/gen chem, Biochem" all combined superficially in 12 weeks, 12 week course in Pathophysiology 101. Looking back those courses, they were very superficial at the amount of knowledge required to pass. Those science courses were no where near the complexity that medical schools dig into, where things get broken down into the mechanism of protein structures that allow them to function a certain way. With out understanding the complexities of the inner workings of what actually occur at the cellular level, you can't begin to understand what went wrong when the ALGORITHM they are trained to follow doesn't go according to plan. Then comes the nursing courses, and the "clinicals" that they do. The actual nursing courses were good enough to understand and complete NURSING tasks. They were not good enough to treat and effectively manage complex disease, but when I was a nursing student at that time I thought I knew just as much as a doctor, and I was dead wrong. The clinicals were a joke, you passed out meds,maybe gave a few injections, changed wet diapers on incontinent patients, and followed the orders given by the doctor. I am all about advanced education, but there is NO DIFFERENCE in the fundamental knowledge between a RN VS BSN other than some "nursing research courses and fluff to get fancy titles like clinical nurse specialist, or infection control specialist" but the core principles are EXACTLY THE SAME. So when they claim they have a BSN not an associates in nursing, there is NO difference, and I dare you to find me a BSN who would say there is. Something else that ticks me off I hear from nurses trying to be MD's is " I have 15+ years in the ICU, ER, or MED/SURG floor," that counts as more education like a residency. Good for you! But, when I worked as a nurses assistant for 5+ years I didn't claim to know or be equivalent to a RN just because I saw what they did, and helped them carry out orders. How would NURSES like it if LPN's claimed to be EQUIVALENT to RN's/BSN's? Probably wouldn't go well. I am not knocking down the profession of nursing, what I am annoyed with is NURSES/NP's claiming to be equivalent to MD's. You are not, you were trained in the NURSING SCOPE of practice. I love nurses, yes I would trust a seasoned ICU nurse's opinion vs a Freshly minted MD out of med school in July as an Intern, but I guarantee that by the end of 3-4 months of intern year, his knowledge base will increase exponentialy to surpass that of any ICU nurse due to his knowledge base gained from 8 years of education that doesn't stop during residency, and now applying it daily as a intern. So nurses I beg you to please just work within your scope as a nurse, and stop trying to claim equivelancy through studies "propaganda" funded by the militant nurses association.

 

[Mad Jack]

 

[VisionaryTics]

I think this would be inflammatory if it were posted in a nursing forum, but I think most med students and physicians have the opinion that our training is more thorough than nurses'.

 

[mcloaf]

I think this would be inflammatory if it were posted in a nursing forum, but I think most med students and physicians have the opinion that our training is more thorough than nurses'.

This.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think this would be inflammatory if it were posted in a nursing forum, but I think most med students and physicians have the opinion that our training is more thorough than nurses'.

I was really hoping for more conversation on the matter. Obviously I agree with OP. NP education is a joke compared to medical school. My god though, tell them that to their faces and the indoctrinated crap you hear in response...

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

I am simply providing my honest opinion in support of my fellow MD's to be. If I were to post this on the nursing side, it would only just put them into a propaganda "let me google pseudo research" frenzy to back up nursing claim claims. I just thought you guys needed to hear this. Sick of their claims.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

PS the NCLEX EXAM that is required is EASY compared to STEP 1,2,3. The exam stops once it thinks you will be able to achieve a passing score after 75 questions, other wise it spoon feeds questions up 250 to get a passing score. I wish the USMLE were like that

 

[Psai]

You're preaching to the choir.

 

[DermViser]

Um, not really. The OP has gone through nursing school AND medical school. Not exactly inflammatory.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

formatting pls for the love of god

 

[GangaMaster]

Even though I read it, you'd think with all that schooling you'd learn to indent paragraphs and double space here and there.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Sorry, did it via the phone. But you get the drift.

 

[Blizzard18]

Loved this. I know some nursing majors that need to read this. I know several (although not all are like this) that think they are so much smarter than me and are already smarter than ill be when I'm a doctor just because they do a lot of hands on stuff in clinical already and I am stuck finishing my senior year of undergrad of chemistry.

 

[fastlane]

If NPs want the same scope of practice, etc as a family practice doctor, they should be required to take the Step 1/2/3. If they want the same job, they should have to take the same exams.

 

[Psai]

If NPs want the same scope of practice, etc as a family practice doctor, they should be required to take the Step 1/2/3. If they want the same job, they should have to take the same exams.

And you know, actually finish medical school and residency.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Post this on allnurses and then you'll see some fireworks.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

And you know, actually finish medical school and residency.

They try to claim their clinical experience during NP school "as a residency"

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Post this on allnurses and then you'll see some fireworks.

I would probably get banned or seen as a troll. I don't need them to get all worked up, even though they troll on SDN. But, they don't say anything while on the job physically. Cyber warriors, with Dorrito laced finger tips, spewing ANA propaganda. I'm sure it's only rogue nurses that think like this, you know the ones who weren't good enough for med-school so settled for nursing. I have plenty of nursing friends from undergrad that would agree. The nurses who went into the field for nursing love the field, and are professionals. It's the ones who failed physics, orgo, poor MCATs who now claim to be equivalent.

 

[wannabeMD38]

I would probably get banned or seen as a troll. I don't need them to get all worked up, even though they troll on SDN. But, they don't say anything while on the job physically. Cyber warriors, with Dorrito laced finger tips, spewing ANA propaganda. I'm sure it's only rogue nurses that think like this, you know the ones who weren't good enough for med-school so settled for nursing. I have plenty of nursing friends from undergrad that would agree. The nurses who went into the field for nursing love the field, and are professionals. It's the ones who failed physics, orgo, poor MCATs who now claim to be equivalent.

Ouch! Lmfao

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I think this would be inflammatory if it were posted in a nursing forum, but I think most med students and physicians have the opinion that our training is more thorough than nurses'.

Wait, do nurses believe they have more thorough training? wow.

 

[fancymylotus]

Nurses are pretty damn self-righteous about all of their knowledge and training. So are pharmacists.


*SOME. not all. Still haven't met a pharmacist I could tolerate though.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Wait, do nurses believe they have more thorough training? wow.

here is just some of the stuff, and this thread goes on for pages. Yes, some really do think there knowledge base is greater than docs, because they come across freshly minted doc in July as a intern. Everyone makes a mistake that laughable here and there, but that's not the norm for a doc after a a few years out. Please, I could count numerous times when I worked as a patient care tech and saw newly minted nurses make some real silly mistakes. It's gonna happen, but some of these fools think it's the standard. Exp, nurse "Silly me, I gave the pt his metoprolol and now his HR is in the 40's when the order clearly stated hold if HR <60" oops. You shoulda checked the HR before you gave it! Yup, I've seen this. It was a honest mistake. Do I think nurses are dumb, absolutely not.

 

[Frozengrapes]

View attachment 178658 here is just some of the stuff, and this thread goes on for pages. Yes, some really do think there knowledge base is greater than docs, because they come across freshly minted doc in July as a intern. Everyone makes a mistake that laughable here and there, but that's not the norm for a doc after a a few years out. Please, I could count numerous times when I worked as a patient care tech and saw newly minted nurses make some real silly mistakes. It's gonna happen, but some of these fools think it's the standard. Exp, nurse "Silly me, I gave the pt his metoprolol and now his HR is in the 40's when the order clearly stated hold if HR <60" oops. You shoulda checked the HR before you gave it! Yup, I've seen this. It was a honest mistake. Do I think nurses are dumb, absolutely not.

Reading that bottom post, I could see some real truths to that. That poster actually acknowledged that the interns'/residents' brains are on overload and they are constantly rotating, while the nurses are in the same setting and seeing the same type of patients. So naturally, they will know the basic management protocols a little faster. The complexities of management will obviously be brought to the table by the physicians, though.

I'm pretty sure that poster is recognizing that. At least, I would hope. I wish some nurses weren't so quick and on guard to hate the newbies and would have a little understanding for the fatigue and brain overload. It's not like the docs are thinking in terms of straight algorithms, so I would hope nurses could appreciate that.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Reading that bottom post, I could see some real truths to that. That poster actually acknowledged that the interns'/residents' brains are on overload and they are constantly rotating, while the nurses are in the same setting and seeing the same type of patients. So naturally, they will know the basic management protocols a little faster. The complexities of management will obviously be brought to the table by the physicians, though.

I'm pretty sure that poster is recognizing that. At least, I would hope. I wish some nurses weren't so quick and on guard to hate the newbies and would have a little understanding for the fatigue and brain overload. It's not like the docs are thinking in terms of straight algorithms, so I would hope nurses could appreciate that.

You hit the nail on the head with pattern recognition. Anyone can learn to do that after a while, but then when the algorithms go wrong who do you call??? MD's. Great point, exactly what I am getting at.

 

[KnuxNole]

lol...that poster is wrong. Noone is intimidated by nurses..

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

lol...that poster is wrong. Noone is intimidated by nurses..

They confuse a brain that's thinking analytically as they speak in regards to a patients condition as being "intimidated." They don't realize when they start to present the patient's issues that physicians are already running differentials, management "thinking critically", all while they talk.

 

[Jibby321]

Nurses are pretty damn self-righteous about all of their knowledge and training. So are pharmacists.


*SOME. not all. Still haven't met a pharmacist I could tolerate though.

You could tolerate this future farmercyst.

 

[Raryn]

Nurses are pretty damn self-righteous about all of their knowledge and training. So are pharmacists.


*SOME. not all. Still haven't met a pharmacist I could tolerate though.

You've obviously never worked with a decent clinical pharmacist. We have pharmacists who round with us and save our butts more often than not.

 

[moisne]

Loved this. I know some nursing majors that need to read this. I know several (although not all are like this) that think they are so much smarter than me and are already smarter than ill be when I'm a doctor just because they do a lot of hands on stuff in clinical already and I am stuck finishing my senior year of undergrad of chemistry.

Knowing more doesn't make you "smarter". You seem to mix up education/learning with intelligence.

 

[link2swim06]

View attachment 178658

This post by the nurse is actually ironically funny.

What the nurse is proposing could KILL the pt.

Giving flumazenil to a (likely) chronic benzo user is a great way to put someone into intractable seizures.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

This post by the nurse is actually ironically funny.

What the nurse is proposing could KILL the pt.

Giving flumazenil to a (likely) chronic benzo user is a great way to put someone into intractable seizures.

Great point, they actually only use flumazenil if it's only a acute overdose, never a chronic benzo user.

 

[fancymylotus]

You've obviously never worked with a decent clinical pharmacist. We have pharmacists who round with us and save our butts more often than not.

Everyone has their own experiences obviously. Mine have just never been pleasant.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Not inflammatory b/c this post is on SDN. Please post the same thing on allnurses and link it here so I can roast up some popcorn and have some solid reading material in a day or two.

And yeah, lol at the nurse talking brand names. I'm sure if she had said flumazenil (assuming that she knows what flumazenil is) the resident would have known. All the brand names for the damn generics I learned in MS2 make my brain hurt in the hospital sometimes.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Great point, they actually only use flumazenil if it's only a acute overdose, never a chronic benzo user.

Which means you need really good collateral history. Probably safer to just protect the airway and support, though I haven't seen it before. I do think I heard a tox lecture a few years ago that said the best thing for benzo overdose is supportive care.

Also, this is the first I've heard the brand name of flumazenil.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Which means you need really good collateral history. Probably safer to just protect the airway and support, though I haven't seen it before. I do think I heard a tox lecture a few years ago that said the best thing for benzo overdose is supportive care.

Also, this is the first I've heard the brand name of flumazenil.

That's actually the generic name not the trade name. Here are the trade names.
Trade names:Anexate, Lanexat, Mazicon, Romazicon

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Not inflammatory b/c this post is on SDN. Please post the same thing on allnurses and link it here so I can roast up some popcorn and have some solid reading material in a day or two.

And yeah, lol at the nurse talking brand names. I'm sure if she had said flumazenil (assuming that she knows what flumazenil is) the resident would have known. All the brand names for the damn generics I learned in MS2 make my brain hurt in the hospital sometimes.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

That's actually the generic name not the trade name. Here are the trade names.
Trade names:Anexate, Lanexat, Mazicon, Romazicon

Sloppy writing from me oh my: I know flumazenil. I do not know the brand names.

 

[Jibby321]

I have an idea, I just registered an account with Allnurses.com, I will be adding the link here when the drama sets it. Let's see what happens.

Yessssss

 

[Ost3oclast]

I have an idea, I just registered an account with Allnurses.com, I will be adding the link here when the drama sets it. Let's see what happens.

Wow, subbed for the coming awesomeness.

Honestly, that site makes me jaded man. Now I walk around thinking that every nurse I meet either:

1. Hates me
2. Hates me
3. Thinks I'm stupid
4. Hates me and thinks I'm stupid.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have an idea, I just registered an account with Allnurses.com, I will be adding the link here when the drama sets it. Let's see what happens.

Ugh...please do not link back to SDN when you post on that site. We don't need the grief here of bouncing trolls right and left.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Ugh...please do not link back to SDN when you post on that site. We don't need the grief here of bouncing trolls right and left.

For real, link from here to there not the other way around. I can only imagine the poor mods when droves of nurse cyber warriors descend on the allo forum.

 

[Patassa]

Wow, subbed for the coming awesomeness.

Honestly, that site makes me jaded man. Now I walk around thinking that every nurse I meet either:

1. Hates me
2. Hates me
3. Thinks I'm stupid
4. Hates me and thinks I'm stupid.

It's a strange version of inferiority complex that I experienced as an oil refinery engineer. The operators were all union guys, many of whom didn't bother finishing high school, some newer ones with 2 year tech degrees. They eat, sleep, and breath the operating unit (making gasoline for instance), they come to know their equipment and the basic process inside and out, day in day out. A new, freshly minted engineer walks in straight out of school, onto the unit to do his rotation, pay his dues and clearly isn't as well versed in this particular version of the process, the equipment, and most importantly the politics.

The operators treat them like idiots. And for the first few months, they are functional idiots. Then the slow transition happens. All of that chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, heat/mass energy balance, machine design, controls, etc (depending on discipline), start to make sense of the surroundings. In ways that these operators will never fully know or understand. The young grasshopper slowly realizes that these guys have functional limits that are a magnitude of difference lower than his, and his knowledge and skills continue to grow ever widening the gap.

They chose not to advance their education, yet they feel as though they must take every early opportunity to beat down the young yearling as much as possible. Despite this, the yearling grows into a nice strong buck. Then moves on. Then the buck becomes their manager and has to beat them down for screwing even up the simplest of orders to him, in time.

It's all very strange, yet a predictable cycle.

 

[Ost3oclast]

It's a strange version of inferiority complex that I experienced as an oil refinery engineer. The operators were all union guys, many of whom didn't bother finishing high school, some newer ones with 2 year tech degrees. They eat, sleep, and breath the operating unit (making gasoline for instance), they come to know their equipment and the basic process inside and out, day in day out. A new, freshly minted engineer walks in straight out of school, onto the unit to do his rotation, pay his dues and clearly isn't as well versed in this particular version of the process, the equipment, and most importantly the politics.

The operators treat them like idiots. And for the first few months, they are functional idiots. Then the slow transition happens. All of that chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, heat/mass energy balance, machine design, controls, etc (depending on discipline), start to make sense of the surroundings. In ways that these operators will never fully know or understand. The young grasshopper slowly realizes that these guys have functional limits that are a magnitude of difference lower than his, and his knowledge and skills continue to grow ever widening the gap.

They chose not to advance their education, yet they feel as though they must take every early opportunity to beat down the young yearling as much as possible. Despite this, the yearling grows into a nice strong buck. Then moves on. Then the buck becomes their manager and has to beat them down for screwing even up the simplest of orders to him, in time.

It's all very strange, yet a predictable cycle.

Wow, yeah thats very comparable.I wish it wasnt like this...

 

[ChrisGriffen]

There is also a very prominent amount of putting people down in nursing. The culture of being a nurse promotes chastising colleagues who appear to be inferior. Im not blowing smoke here either. Google "horizontal bullying" and look at the first suggestion in the dropdown menu.

 

[Patassa]

Wow, yeah thats very comparable.I wish it wasnt like this...

It's not you, it's them. Unless it is you, in which case, have respect for their particular skill set and experience. That's all you can do.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

There is also a very prominent amount of putting people down in nursing. The culture of being a nurse promotes chastising colleagues who appear to be inferior. Im not blowing smoke here either. Google "horizontal bullying" and look at the first suggestion in the dropdown menu.

I think that most on SDN will agree that we RESPECT nurses, they play an integral role in healthcare today, and our patients need them. They have a skill that they gained nursing school in being able to recognize when a patient might be going south (crashing). I'm strictly referring to the nurses that buy into that BS produced by the ANA lobby groups that say we physicians are interchangeable with mid levels (extenders) what ever the new politically correct term is nowadays. How can the USA be the only 1st world nation, to
Start experimenting with this? This is where I think lawyers become our friends in regulating the notion that we are equal.

For example, let say a patient develops recurrent pneumonias and the NP just keeps treating it with ABX's following her fancy algorithm, not realizing this person has 5 risk factors and is developing a cancerous lesion in the bronchus causing an obstructive effect producing a breading ground for bacteria leading to recurrent pneumonias. I want to be the lawyer on that case. "Mam, where did you get your medical degree?" Oh you don't have one? Ooooohhhhhh you're a nurse practitioner???? Okay well let me ask a DOCTOR who went to medical school and residency what he thinks? "Doctor X what is the most likely cause of a recurrent pneumonias in a 50 YO, with a 30 lbs weight loss in 3 months and a 1Pack/day/30 years smoking history? " Sounds like Cancer! "Your honor I rest my case, you had this negligent nurse be the leading cause of this pt developing an un resectable squamous cell tumor in the lung that has now has METS to the brain. MOST doctors would of picked this cancer up at an earlier resectable stage.

That would be a 2,000,000 dollar law suit. Nurse Practitioner in the court of law vs a Lawyer & Doctor, done deal for the practice she if affiliated with. It will take a few cases like this to turn this around. Let them think they are equal, until Obama Care nurse practitioners working solo missing things like Carcinoid tumors, Wegners Granulamatosis, Kawasakis, ect, those little annoying complex diseases that takes years of training to recognize and not miss.

I'm not saying doctors don't miss things, but in the court of law, it would be MD vs MD, and the MD can argue standard of care. The standard of care is not using NPs to treat cancer, which they can easily miss. We might save money short term, but when we see all the crazy tests NPs order, sometimes wrongly, and lawsuits like the one above, this little experiment will run wild on the media headlines, and back the Physicians come, but this time society will learn the cost of having well trained Physician.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Making up theoretical scenarios doesn't really help anyone either though.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

It's a strange version of inferiority complex that I experienced as an oil refinery engineer. The operators were all union guys, many of whom didn't bother finishing high school, some newer ones with 2 year tech degrees. They eat, sleep, and breath the operating unit (making gasoline for instance), they come to know their equipment and the basic process inside and out, day in day out. A new, freshly minted engineer walks in straight out of school, onto the unit to do his rotation, pay his dues and clearly isn't as well versed in this particular version of the process, the equipment, and most importantly the politics.

The operators treat them like idiots. And for the first few months, they are functional idiots. Then the slow transition happens. All of that chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, heat/mass energy balance, machine design, controls, etc (depending on discipline), start to make sense of the surroundings. In ways that these operators will never fully know or understand. The young grasshopper slowly realizes that these guys have functional limits that are a magnitude of difference lower than his, and his knowledge and skills continue to grow ever widening the gap.

They chose not to advance their education, yet they feel as though they must take every early opportunity to beat down the young yearling as much as possible. Despite this, the yearling grows into a nice strong buck. Then moves on. Then the buck becomes their manager and has to beat them down for screwing even up the simplest of orders to him, in time.

It's all very strange, yet a predictable cycle.

I don't mind the nursing staff I repeat nursing staff, they do put us through the wringer. They live at that hospital, they really care and watch over patients like hawks. I don't mind that. What I won't stand for is the ones that think that because you're a rookie, you're an idiot who wasted his life in med school. And, because you made some strange remarks, questionable rookie mistakes as an intern, they now think they are greater than physicians. I love, LOVE nurses, I can't emphasizes them enough, I've had this conversation with them. Most new interns will make mistakes, nurses they have more technical knowledge at the time, but after 3-5 months intern year, the Intern is clearly outlast any ICU nurse, and only continues to build while they have plateaued.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Nah I get what s/he is saying. Its a bit off what I was talking about though. I meant to just say that nurses are hostile in general. There are studies upon studies showing that nursing promotes criticism between coworkers to assert superiority. It comes out within the nursing community, as well as between nurses and doctors they feel are inexperienced

Edit: and I also respect nurses. Most of the women in my family tree are/were RNs

 

[ChrisGriffen]

I have an idea, I just registered an account with Allnurses.com, I will be adding the link here when the drama sets it. Let's see what happens.

Also... Did you do this? I have my popcorn ready