Nursing School Vs Med School, no comparison.

[Critical Mass REACHED]

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Nah I get what s/he is saying. Its a bit off what I was talking about though. I meant to just say that nurses are hostile in general. There are studies upon studies showing that nursing promotes criticism between coworkers to assert superiority. It comes out within the nursing community, as well as between nurses and doctors they feel are inexperienced

I've never seen MD's flip quarters who was gonna call the nurse because they were scared, but what I have see is nurses flipping a quarter in fear of calling the attending, or some very assertive chief resident. I don't think it should be like that, only implying no one really fears nurses. I respect them, but pay them no mind. And I am vary friendly with them seeing how I went through nursing school, they warm up to me and drop all that negative bull ****. Some med students can be dinguses, but don't see that as the standard med student. But I hope he gets corrected by his peers on how to behave and not be a ass.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Also... Did you do this? I have my popcorn ready

I will do it in a way where it won't be linked to SDN, you'll see. I know they operated, I worked with them for almost 8 years. Give me some time.

 

[Patassa]

Nah I get what s/he is saying. Its a bit off what I was talking about though. I meant to just say that nurses are hostile in general. There are studies upon studies showing that nursing promotes criticism between coworkers to assert superiority. It comes out within the nursing community, as well as between nurses and doctors they feel are inexperienced

Edit: and I also respect nurses. Most of the women in my family tree are/were RNs

Interestingly enough, my parallel breaks down at the point of all the operators were men. Manly, chest beating men.

I don't hate women, in fact, I'm married to one. But there are differences beyond anatomy.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Making up theoretical scenarios doesn't really help anyone either though.

In terms of what? It's not theoretical, it's happening. Go on google and type NP missed my diagnosis and now my dad has full blown Prostate cancer, when she thought it was BPH. All over google.

 

[link2swim06]

I find this MD v RN thing a little silly. While both share a certain level of medical knowledge they are very different jobs.

I'm about to graduate med school in 2 months yet I couldn't start working as a nurse in 2 months. I haven't been trained in nursing. I don't know which tubes to draw blood in, I don't know how to setup the IV to the pump, etc, etc, etc.

Now the MD v NP is a little bit of a different story...

 

[PrideNeverDie]

a lion doesn't care about the opinion of sheep

 

[Psai]

a lion doesn't care about the opinion of sheep

And a Lannister always pays his debts.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

And a Lannister always pays his debts.

Hahahaha, god the new season needs to hurry up

 

[SouthSideSteve]

in other news water is wet. gj OP.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I will do it in a way where it won't be linked to SDN, you'll see. I know they operated, I worked with them for almost 8 years. Give me some time.

Interesting lol.

And yes, as others have said, do not post a SDN link there. Post the allnurses link here (preferably transferred to a bit.ly or something).

 

[Siggy]

Hahahaha, god the new season needs to hurry up

Winter is coming...

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

Honey, we've got to get you a handle on allnurses...

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Interesting lol.

And yes, as others have said, do not post a SDN link there. Post the allnurses link here (preferably transferred to a bit.ly or something).

What is bit ly?

 

[evilbooyaa]

What is bit ly?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+bit+ly

 

[Mad Jack]

View attachment 178658here is just some of the stuff, and this thread goes on for pages. Yes, some really do think there knowledge base is greater than docs, because they come across freshly minted doc in July as a intern. Everyone makes a mistake that laughable here and there, but that's not the norm for a doc after a a few years out. Please, I could count numerous times when I worked as a patient care tech and saw newly minted nurses make some real silly mistakes. It's gonna happen, but some of these fools think it's the standard. Exp, nurse "Silly me, I gave the pt his metoprolol and now his HR is in the 40's when the order clearly stated hold if HR <60" oops. You shoulda checked the HR before you gave it! Yup, I've seen this. It was a honest mistake. Do I think nurses are dumb, absolutely not.

New interns are pretty useless, but within six months, most are pretty damn good. It's like that with any job. Most nurses and caregivers do get frustrated with new interns- they really are kind of in the way much of the time- but we know that that's the downside of working in a teaching hospital. If they're really screwing things up, you just go over their head to a resident or an attending, but most of the time you'll try to craft your case in a way that lets them see the error of their ways first.

I think a lot of the attitude about APRNs being able to become just as competent as physicians comes from the faulty observation of interns that become capable residents in a couple years of what really amounts to on-the-job training. The nurses fail to account for the fact that physicians are only able to reach such high levels of competence in such a short period because of their extensive knowledge base, long training hours, and often exceptional mental capabilities to begin with. No amount of OTJ training will make an NP or PA as capable as a physician, as their knowledge base is simply not as broad to begin with, which limits their ultimate potential. This is not to say that there are not some extremely talented, intelligent, well-trained, and capable NPs and PAs out there, but simply to say that a trained physician in their field will generally exceed their skills and performance.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

New interns are pretty useless, but within six months, most are pretty damn good. It's like that with any job. Most nurses and caregivers do get frustrated with new interns- they really are kind of in the way much of the time- but we know that that's the downside of working in a teaching hospital. If they're really screwing things up, you just go over their head to a resident or an attending, but most of the time you'll try to craft your case in a way that lets them see the error of their ways first.

I think a lot of the attitude about APRNs being able to become just as competent as physicians comes from the faulty observation of interns that become capable residents in a couple years of what really amounts to on-the-job training. The nurses fail to account for the fact that physicians are only able to reach such high levels of competence in such a short period because of their extensive knowledge base, long training hours, and often exceptional mental capabilities to begin with. No amount of OTJ training will make an NP or PA as capable as a physician, as their knowledge base is simply not as broad to begin with, which limits their ultimate potential. This is not to say that there are not some extremely talented, intelligent, well-trained, and capable NPs and PAs out there, but simply to say that a trained physician in their field will generally exceed their skills and performance.

America is really becoming the country of "equality" where NP's, PA's, and Mid level anesthesia provides, are EQAUL. What ever happened to going to school, working hard and getting ahead. If you want the breadth of knowledge physicians have, and want equal pay, go to school for 8-10 years "some have post bachs, PhD's, Masters," go to residency "minimum 3-7 years" for slave wages, then pass a bunch of board exams, then you can be equal. Everyone wants the easy ride, "it's not fair."

 

[Mad Jack]

America is really becoming the country of "equality" where NP's, PA's, and Mid level anesthesia provides, are EQAUL. What ever happened to going to school, working hard and getting ahead. If you want the breadth of knowledge physicians have, and want equal pay, go to school for 8-10 years "some have post bachs, PhD's, Masters," go to residency "minimum 3-7 years" for slave wages, then pass a bunch of board exams, then you can be equal. Everyone wants the easy ride, "it's not fair."

It's really bull****. The nurses I know that went the NP or CRNA route, when asked "if you want to practice independently, why don't you go to medical school?" would give me one of two answers. The first, was "I don't want all of the responsibility that physicians have. I want to work a 9-5 and go home," while the other group would generally answer, "I am too busy/too lazy/too impatient to go to medical school." So you basically end up with one group that wants a full scope of practice without a full scope of responsibility or education, while the other group wants a full scope of practice and full responsibility without a full education. I'm sure there are people that fall outside of these two particular groups, but the vast majority of nurses I know that are taking (part time!) APRN courses fall into one or the other. That physicians are losing their place at the top of the medical hierarchy to a group of underqualified caregivers that lack the dedication and sacrifice required to go through medical school and residency is depressing to say the least.

I don't want to go off on a sociopolitical tirade, but I really feel it is a side effect of the current anti-wealth, anti-intellectual, and anti-science movements that exist in different areas of the political spectrum. Physicians possess wealth, intellect, and a science-based career, so we take flak from every direction, while nurses, with their middle class pay, everyman level of education, and holistic and caring approach to health care tend to get nothing but praise from the masses. This is not to say that nurses do not possess valuable skills, nor that they are villains, but rather that they are playing on the emotional heartstrings of society to further an agenda that benefits them professionally but will ultimately result in a lower level of patient care being delivered in this country.

 

[DrOwnage]

^^^.

I agree. Fortunately, the harder I work in the medical field the more I become adverse to this sense of entitlement, slowly learning that persistent effort produces results you can be prideful of. People need to learn the difference between entitlement and pride. Pride is a result of hard work and accomplishment, being born doesn't get you @#$%. Certainly as the decade of financial and emotional turmoil that is becoming a doctor doesn't require a physician to cheapen himself and dignify a disparate amount of time in education as equal to his own.

 

[xffan624]

I think a lot of parallels could be made with the tension between officers and NCO's in the military. At least from my experiences in the Army, when I first got there as a 1st LT (had a master's so got an initial bump in rank), I didn't know jack about how to do my job or about the real Army. Even the soldiers were teaching me. I listened to the NCO's, read the relevant regulations, talked to other more experienced officers and within a year, I was caught up and I was instructing my soldier on things when we were deployed. When I got to a new unit and encountered a new NCO who had been in for much longer than me (he had been in the initial invasion in Iraq, when I was still in college), I was teaching him stuff. I still relied on him for advice and bounced off ideas for him, but when it came to the complex topics, I took the lead and he followed.

So the reality is, lots of NCO's and Soldiers think officers are *****s and when they first get in, they pretty much are, but most (or at least the smart ones) catch up pretty quickly and are able to lead effectively. The difference between these two parallels is the military has a strict hierarchy, while the medical field's is dissolving. I think the ONUS is on the current crop of doctors to toss away the entitled crap that will ultimately lead to push back and expect to earn the respect of your fellow mid-levels by doing your job well and learning what you can from them (understanding their background and knowledge gaps, of course).

 

[Instatewaiter]

Great point, they actually only use flumazenil if it's only a acute overdose, never a chronic benzo user.

Even then it's rare to use. Just tube the guy and wait for the benzos to wear off.

As to the intern/resident not knowing what romazicon was... **** I had to look up what it was because no one calls it romazicon in academic centers. Most centers use all generics.

 

[Anastomoses]

Wow, subbed for the coming awesomeness.

Honestly, that site makes me jaded man. Now I walk around thinking that every nurse I meet either:

1. Hates me
2. Hates me
3. Thinks I'm stupid
4. Hates me and thinks I'm stupid.

I'm impressed that many of you care what they are saying on AllNurses.com

I find reading them akin to watching Funniest Home Videos or Jackass or cat memes - just puzzling.

 

[KnuxNole]

America is really becoming the country of "equality" where NP's, PA's, and Mid level anesthesia provides, are EQAUL. What ever happened to going to school, working hard and getting ahead. If you want the breadth of knowledge physicians have, and want equal pay, go to school for 8-10 years "some have post bachs, PhD's, Masters," go to residency "minimum 3-7 years" for slave wages, then pass a bunch of board exams, then you can be equal. Everyone wants the easy ride, "it's not fair."

That's not the current American way of life 😛

 

[Ost3oclast]

I'm impressed that many of you care what they are saying on AllNurses.com

I find reading them akin to watching Funniest Home Videos or Jackass or cat memes - just puzzling.

Its not a site I troll on regularly, but anytime a thread is posted from over there to SDN, its never good. Decided to check it out myself one day and pretty much found people calling docs stupid etc. I guess I still have that naive 1st year mentality where everybody respects each other while trying to work together....I think my opinion is starting to change a bit.

 

[Nasrudin]

Its not a site I troll on regularly, but anytime a thread is posted from over there to SDN, its never good. Decided to check it out myself one day and pretty much found people calling docs stupid etc. I guess I still have that naive 1st year mentality where everybody respects each other while trying to work together....I think my opinion is starting to change a bit.

Well its both really--some of the natives are hostile, some nice. You negotiate your presence on every team you join. Starting over each time to forge new working relationships. By the end of your 3rd and 4th year you'll be an old hand at it. We're always the new guy. Your task is getting people to help you learn and do your job. If they turn their luxury of never having to adapt to managing different clinical scenarios in completely new settings into laughing or sneering or judging its all fine as long as it doesn't compromise your ability to work effectively.

By the time you have the political capital to do anything about it you likely won't care as you will be leading the team. And they will recognize you as such. The struggles of the in between years is what gives the patience, ability, and confidence to lead.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

It's really bull****. The nurses I know that went the NP or CRNA route, when asked "if you want to practice independently, why don't you go to medical school?" would give me one of two answers. The first, was "I don't want all of the responsibility that physicians have. I want to work a 9-5 and go home," while the other group would generally answer, "I am too busy/too lazy/too impatient to go to medical school." So you basically end up with one group that wants a full scope of practice without a full scope of responsibility or education, while the other group wants a full scope of practice and full responsibility without a full education. I'm sure there are people that fall outside of these two particular groups, but the vast majority of nurses I know that are taking (part time!) APRN courses fall into one or the other. That physicians are losing their place at the top of the medical hierarchy to a group of underqualified caregivers that lack the dedication and sacrifice required to go through medical school and residency is depressing to say the least.

I don't want to go off on a sociopolitical tirade, but I really feel it is a side effect of the current anti-wealth, anti-intellectual, and anti-science movements that exist in different areas of the political spectrum. Physicians possess wealth, intellect, and a science-based career, so we take flak from every direction, while nurses, with their middle class pay, everyman level of education, and holistic and caring approach to health care tend to get nothing but praise from the masses. This is not to say that nurses do not possess valuable skills, nor that they are villains, but rather that they are playing on the emotional heartstrings of society to further an agenda that benefits them professionally but will ultimately result in a lower level of patient care being delivered in this country.

You forgot to mention that a lot of the NP courses can be completed ONLINE

really? Really? You compare a degree you can get online, to someone with a actual medical degree is laughable. I agree with your political rhetoric. UNIVERSITY of PHOENIX!

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Its not a site I troll on regularly, but anytime a thread is posted from over there to SDN, its never good. Decided to check it out myself one day and pretty much found people calling docs stupid etc. I guess I still have that naive 1st year mentality where everybody respects each other while trying to work together....I think my opinion is starting to change a bit.

That's because you're not in the NURSES lounge where they just blast physicians for mistakes that interns make while they learn. They will bash physicians all day, saying things like "why do we need doctors when we do all the work, while they just see the patient for a quick second in the AM." A lot of nurses don't understand the complicated orchestration that occurs behind the scenes while the physician is out of site. Doctors have to fight with insurance companies, make healthcare decisions based on what the pt can afford and what the insurance will cover, organizing follow up care with other specialist, communicating with all the other people caring for the pt (social worker, nurses, family etc) to formulate a health care plan that is feasible to the patient. Not to mention the mountain of paper work that is needed. Why do nurses complain about pay? Nurses work 36-40 hrs a week, and make 50k-100K with a minimum of a 2 year associates degree. A primary care doc makes about 160,000, and works on average 60Hrs a week, and the math adds up to be $51/hr. A fresh nurses makes 50,000K at $26/hr, with some I KNOW making $40/hr flat rate!

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Let me just say I started this interesting topic on the nurses forum, and let me just say it has been nothing but pure joy. Once they figure out I'm trolling, I'm going to post the images of the thread for everyone to see. And if your wondering, I am not bashing them on their forum, it's a heathy debate in disguise.

 

[chondroblast]

They try to claim their clinical experience during NP school "as a residency"

That's like a 10 year old claiming that she can drive a car because she grew up driving tractors around the farm.

 

[Anastomoses]

Let me just say I started this interesting topic on the nurses forum, and let me just say it has been nothing but pure joy. Once they figure out I'm trolling, I'm going to post the images of the thread for everyone to see. And if your wondering, I am not bashing them on their forum, it's a heathy debate in disguise.

I don't have any soft spot for nurses but something about your fervency disturbs me.

You're

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

That's like a 10 year old claiming that she can drive a car because she grew up driving tractors around the farm.

But your son can get his online NP degree, but I bet you he can't get a drivers license on live 🙁

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

I don't have any soft spot for nurses but something about your fervence disturbs me.

You're

What do you mean?

 

[Mad Jack]

What do you mean?

We are never really sure with her.

But I think she means how you are fervently broadcasting your view on the matter to the world, and how you are going out of your way to troll the topic on their home turf to boot. I think I get it though- you're frustrated with your former colleagues essentially cheapening your efforts through their actions and words, and rightly so. I'd be pretty riled up myself.

Perhaps she is mistaking your frustration for anger though, I dunno.

 

[Patassa]

a lion doesn't care about the opinion of sheep

Speaking of sheep, anyone read Assume the Physician, yet?

 

[evilbooyaa]

What do you mean?

She means that you put 'your wondering' when it should have been 'you're wondering'

She's just grammar nazi-ing you right now, that's all. At least that's what I figured when she put 'You're' at the bottom of her post.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

She is much like a mosquito. If you ignore here she sometimes will just go away.


Also she sucks.

 

[sobored]

I don't have any soft spot for nurses but something about your fervence disturbs me.

You're

I agree with you, it seems weird. I went from being in total agreement with the first post (which, btw, wasn't news to anyone), to being a bit perplexed by where she/he has taken this.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I agree with you, it seems weird. I went from being in total agreement with the first post (which, btw, wasn't news to anyone), to being a bit perplexed by where she/he has taken this.

FWIW, OP is being egged on by some of the SDN posters (myself included). Like I said, I enjoy watching drama from a distance. Especially if it's online drama and everyone says what they're truly thinking.

 

[Patassa]

FWIW, OP is being egged on by some of the SDN posters (myself included). Like I said, I enjoy watching drama from a distance. Especially if it's online drama and everyone says what they're truly thinking.

I agree, it's nice to have more data points.

 

[Darth Doc]

Nah I get what s/he is saying. Its a bit off what I was talking about though. I meant to just say that nurses are hostile in general. There are studies upon studies showing that nursing promotes criticism between coworkers to assert superiority. It comes out within the nursing community, as well as between nurses and doctors they feel are inexperienced

Edit: and I also respect nurses. Most of the women in my family tree are/were RNs

I've also overheard jokes between nurses about how nurses eat their own young. It seems funny and true.

Ditto on the nurses in the family.

 

[Modeselektor]

Resident should have let them give the BZD antagonist, folded their arms while expectantly looking them straight in the face, and ask them what to do next when the possibly chronic BZD addict started to go into seizure.

The crazy look doesn't always mean, "I don't know what the drug is", it usually means, "are you ****ing insane?"

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

http://allnurses.com/registered-nurses-diploma/why-cant-i-908556.html here is a interesting topic someone started on this forum while I was searching as to why NP's claim equivalency, the original poster made a great point. Basically from reading it "it is a very lengthy debate", the original poster claims Licensed Practical Nurses should be seen as equal as RN's. There is a difference between RN's and LPN's, main difference being an extra 1 or 2 years education to earn the the title "Registered Nurse." LPNs I think have 1 year of training in nursing from I recall, but from the looks of it, they do pretty much the same thing according to this poster. Ouch, that phrase that you hear NP's throw around claiming equivalency ALL A SUDDEN STRIKES A NERVE in nurses. And now, they claim that having more education makes them greeters than LPN's. Oh wow, who would of thought education and more training makes one more valuable and knowledgable, now there's a thought. Maybe they should take their own advice. When I worked at the nursing home LPNs and RNs pretty much do the same thing, but I agree that that extra education probably does make a difference. On the surface it may appear they they do the same thing, and have equal knowledge, but I'm smart enough to know they are not equal, and don't deserve equal pay. Looks like they are getting a taste of what it's like on our end when we hear that nonsense. The original poster on that thread is officially my hero. It's an interesting read if you need bathroom material.

 

[evilbooyaa]

You could literally change LPN and RN to NP/DNP and MD/DO, respectively and have a pretty strong argument for this forum.

Solid find Critical Mass. I may have to favorite that link for any future 'NPs do the same jobs as MDs' posts.

That being said, it was started just a couple days ago, and by page 2 the OP is changing the conversation to NP vs MD.... very well played Critical Mass. Very well played, indeed.

All this being said, the 3-4 people that have bit on the NP vs MD argument have both mentioned how NPs shouldn't be paid the same as MDs. I wish the government would stop listening to the vocal minority within the RN/NP/DNP field.

 

[Psai]

I think that the people in that thread handled it very maturely and made solid statements.

 

[mcloaf]

http://allnurses.com/registered-nurses-diploma/why-cant-i-908556.html ...

Ugh can't even read it, looks like the website was formatted by a blind seven year old.

 

[Kahreek]

I just came here to pat myself and every med student here in the back.
Cheers

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Ugh can't even read it, looks like the website was formatted by a blind seven year old.

The amount of pop ups on that web site could send one into a Grand Mal seizure. Every other ad: "get your NP degree online here"

 

[Anastomoses]

I agree with you, it seems weird. I went from being in total agreement with the first post (which, btw, wasn't news to anyone), to being a bit perplexed by where she/he has taken this.

FWIW, OP is being egged on by some of the SDN posters (myself included). Like I said, I enjoy watching drama from a distance. Especially if it's online drama and everyone says what they're truly thinking.

It's that very egging and OP's zealous hostility toward nurses that causes my instincts to twitch. I sense OP has developed some bizarre superiority complex and wants to distance from "those inferior nurses"...but I wouldn't even be slightly surprised if we're the ones being trolled and egged on to say "what we really think". Either way, whatever. If you're having fun, keep at it.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

It's that very egging and OP's zealous hostility toward nurses that causes my instincts to twitch. I sense OP has developed some bizarre superiority complex and wants to distance from "those inferior nurses"...but I wouldn't even be slightly surprised if we're the ones being trolled and egged on to say "what we really think". Either way, whatever. If you're having fun, keep at it.

You are failing to understand what was originally stated, I am against NPs who think they are equal to physicians. When someone even implied that same argument with nurses, they seemed to go into a frenzy, and were offended when they were compared in equality with LPNs, "which again I don't agree with". Doesn't argument sound familiar? I just found it interesting when they were all defensive, and finally felt what we have felt for years. And that picture posted, are the statements I am talking about.

 

[Anastomoses]

View attachment 178750

You are failing to understand what was originally stated, I am against NPs who think they are equal to physicians. When someone even implied that same argument with nurses, they seemed to go into a frenzy, and were offended when they were compared in equality with LPNs, "which again I don't agree with". Doesn't argument sound familiar? I just found it interesting when they were all defensive, and finally felt what we have felt for years. And that picture posted, are the statements I am talking about.

Dearest Critical,

What some nurse thinks about her value to the process has absolutely no meaning to me. If she/he can manage to be polite and helpful...they can go home and tell folks they are running the hospital for all I care. To me this is akin to making fun of a handicapped kid. Which I suppose is inappropriate for me to admit.

 

[sobored]

View attachment 178750

You are failing to understand what was originally stated, I am against NPs who think they are equal to physicians. When someone even implied that same argument with nurses, they seemed to go into a frenzy, and were offended when they were compared in equality with LPNs, "which again I don't agree with". Doesn't argument sound familiar? I just found it interesting when they were all defensive, and finally felt what we have felt for years. And that picture posted, are the statements I am talking about.

Your attachment and made up thread are falling pretty short of proving your original point. Regarding what you posted above, what was said that was wrong? Also, regarding the link you posted, for some reason I read it (see username), and everyone posting seemed reasonable and rational, completely contrary to what you are suggesting and started this thread about. I know what you're trying to say, as I'm sure all of us have heard a nurse somewhere gripe about inequality compared to her/his physician counterpart, but your posts seem exceedingly petty. I'm also a bit annoyed with you because you're making me feel dirty for agreeing with Anasto so much (I say that with love, please don't call me ugly!), but it seems like she's spot on with this one.