Official 2014 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread

[VMSmith]

Main advantage of a brand name program is word of mouth and connections for academic jobs. Recruiters will recruit anyone, bc the jobs they're trying to fill tend to be undesirable for one reason or another.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[doctorplease]

Hey guys! It is my first time posting. I've found this thread really useful and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to go about making my ROL. I'm from NJ and I'm not too particular about which city I end up in. I'm looking for a well-rounded program with a good work-life balance and also strong psychotherapy. In the future, I plan to pursue a child and adolescent fellowship. I'm getting married right before residency starts, so looking to still be able to enjoy life a bit in residency too if possible.
Georgetown
Tufts
Duke
University of Maryland
Loma Linda
University of Massachusetts
Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson
New York Medical College Westchester Medical Center
SUNY at Stony Brook
Drexel
Albert Einstein Healthcare Network Program
Temple
University of Connecticut
SUNY Upstate at Syracuse
Staten Island University

 

[cookies15]

Great to see that SUNY Buffalo has been mentioned a few times on peoples' list! Although Buffalo tends to get a bad rep for the weather, their psychiatry and neuroscience programs are pretty good. A lot of their medical students end up applying to psychiatry -- I think this year there's about 12 ppl out of 140 or so applying, which is more than other schools. Also, there's not a lot of competition in terms of other residency programs in the area. It's just Buffalo. So you have access to their state facility (Buffalo psychiatric center), inpatient units (BGH and ECMC), psych ER (CPEP), outpatient services like the ACT team and forensics. From what I remember, they also have a child and adolescent inpatient unit as well as geriatrics. They have a cancer center (Roswell) that you can probably rotate into if you're interested in onc-psych stuff. So, you will def get a lot of good exposure and training.

 

[moonshined]

.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

There aren't very many rank lists in this rank list thread.

That's usually a separate thread, and they usually wait until after the certification date to post...

 

[DxNOS]

While I have a pretty decent idea of what I'll rank, I would enjoy some feedback in case I'm missing something.
I am looking for a well-rounded medium sized program that has an academic feel. While I am not sure doing research full time/long term is for me, being in that environment of innovation, challenge, excitement pushes me to be better. Neuropsych and neuroimaging are sides of psychiatry I want to be more involved in. I love teaching, so being faculty at some point is of interest. Being in warmer/active climates makes the rest of my life better. Bigger cities>smaller ones. Work hours are not too much of an issue if I am learning from it.

How would you rank these 4?
University of Louisville
University of Alabama (UAB)
Cleveland Clinic
Wayne State

 

[RandyMarsh2014]

I'd go:
#1 Cleveland Clinic
#2/#3 UAB/Louisville (based on program specifics... and geographic pref.: ie. do you think you can live in Birmingham? Not exactly what one would call a "bigger city," although it is 3 hrs away from Atlanta). I honestly don't know too much about Louisville.
#4 Wayne State

 

[Cottonwoods]

Hi, everyone. I've been doing a lot of lurking here this year. I'll put in interview reviews starting today, though I feel pretty self-conscious about putting my impressions out there. In the meantime, I am struggling mightily with my list. I'm between the following for my top 3. My interests are in child and adolescent.

MGH/McLean: I thought this was an incredibly rich program-- many many people doing fascinating work, a group of residents who all seemed deeply committed to their particular interests. Growing community psychiatry, which is important to me, as I think it says something good about the ethos of the program. An opportunity to be on the child psych track from the get-go, with early pediatrics exposure. I actually like Boston quite a bit. And while I like to think of myself as a laid-back person (don't we all?), I know that I thrive in the presence of very ambitious colleagues. So the purported "coldness" of this program didn't bother me at all.

Columbia: Another rich program, and one where I met an attending who is having precisely the type of career I someday hope for. I got the sense that I could go here and really learn and really reflect, in a way that's less possible in places where residents are spread thin. I think training in New York would be spectacular, though I'm a little worried about Columbia being an ivory tower in the midst of a tremendously diverse city. I'm unclear on how the reputation of child here stacks up against NYU-- are they significantly different? I'm also unsure how well I fit in amongst the highly accomplished residents. Imposter syndrome hits hard at the end of the interview trail.

NYU: I fell in love with this program. I thought the residents were smart and down-to-earth, I appreciated how carefully everyone had read the applications, and I think Bellevue is just incredible. Again, I'd love to train in New York. I worry that the patient load and the clinical demands make it hard to pursue independent interests during residency. I can see myself loving the camaraderie of this program, but I worry about not having the space or time to figure out who I am as a psychiatrist if I went here. But the child training is great, right? I didn't meet anyone from that department the day I was there, but I hear good things.

I thought Stanford was intriguing, too, and I was deeply impressed with their chairperson. But I simply cannot figure out how to live in Palo Alto on a resident salary, and I'm not sure I could afford to stay there in my early career, either. It's not the best for my spouse's career, either. I have a soft spot for Pittsburgh, as well; it was such a thoughtful and warm program. I'm questioning everything!

 

[Tza]

What a nice thread this is. I'm an IMG who isn't concerned as much about the location as I am with the academic caliber of the program and how accomplished a psychiatrist I would be at the end of my residency. Given that, how would you guys suggest I should rank Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic? I like them both equally and they have been shifting between #1 and #2 on my rank list every other day for the past few weeks. I'd really like to have a way to resolve this. Thanks.

 

[Psychedelicious]

Hi, everyone. I've been doing a lot of lurking here this year. I'll put in interview reviews starting today, though I feel pretty self-conscious about putting my impressions out there. In the meantime, I am struggling mightily with my list. I'm between the following for my top 3. My interests are in child and adolescent, particularly working in early psychosis. I want an academic career with a clinical research component, and I want to be able to nurture my interests in human rights and mental health advocacy.

MGH/McLean: I thought this was an incredibly rich program-- many many people doing fascinating work, a group of residents who all seemed deeply committed to their particular interests. Growing community psychiatry, which is important to me, as I think it says something good about the ethos of the program. An opportunity to be on the child psych track from the get-go, with early pediatrics exposure. I actually like Boston quite a bit. And while I like to think of myself as a laid-back person (don't we all?), I know that I thrive in the presence of very ambitious colleagues. So the purported "coldness" of this program didn't bother me at all.

Columbia: Another rich program, and one where I met an attending who is having precisely the type of career I someday hope for. I got the sense that I could go here and really learn and really reflect, in a way that's less possible in places where residents are spread thin. I think training in New York would be spectacular, though I'm a little worried about Columbia being an ivory tower in the midst of a tremendously diverse city. I'm unclear on how the reputation of child here stacks up against NYU-- are they significantly different? I'm also unsure how well I fit in amongst the highly accomplished residents. Imposter syndrome hits hard at the end of the interview trail.

NYU: I fell in love with this program. I thought the residents were smart and down-to-earth, I appreciated how carefully everyone had read the applications, and I think Bellevue is just incredible. Again, I'd love to train in New York. I worry that the patient load and the clinical demands make it hard to pursue independent interests during residency. I can see myself loving the camaraderie of this program, but I worry about not having the space or time to figure out who I am as a psychiatrist if I went here. But the child training is great, right? I didn't meet anyone from that department the day I was there, but I hear good things.

I thought Stanford was intriguing, too, and I was deeply impressed with their chairperson. But I simply cannot figure out how to live in Palo Alto on a resident salary, and I'm not sure I could afford to stay there in my early career, either. It's not the best for my spouse's career, either. I have a soft spot for Pittsburgh, as well; it was such a thoughtful and warm program. I'm questioning everything!

My spouse prefers NYC, but it's not a super strong preference. We are in our early 30s and we like challenges and we think we'd have a great little life there, living in a 300 sqft apartment.

First of all, congratulations on having such excellent programs to choose from! I may not be in the best position to advise since I'm biased towards the two NYC programs you had posted (interviewed at both and loved them both whereas I didn't get an interview at McLean so I'm still bitter). However, reading your post, it seems sort of clear to me that you like McLean and Boston more than either of the NYC programs. Are you on the fence because of your spouse's slight preference for NYC? Or do you have other reservations?

 

[Psychedelicious]

What a nice thread this is. I'm an IMG who isn't concerned as much about the location as I am with the academic caliber of the program and how accomplished a psychiatrist I would be at the end of my residency. Given that, how would you guys suggest I should rank Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic? I like them both equally and they have been shifting between #1 and #2 on my rank list every other day for the past few weeks. I'd really like to have a way to resolve this. Thanks.

It's understandable why you may be on the fence about these programs. They are both so similar that it should really be a toss up between them. Why don't you, dare I say, go with your gut feeling? Whichever you'll be sorry to miss? If you are still completely unsure, why don't you schedule a second visit with them both now (if you can afford it)?

 

[RandyMarsh2014]

I'd also like some opinion on the following schools. Like Tza, location/weather isn't an issue for me - I just want good clinical training, didactics, and patient exposure more than anything (vague, I know):

Syracuse/Upstate
UAB
MCW
Rush
University of Florida
Case
UChicago

I know my list is kind of all over the place, but I also wanted to branch out/try different places more than anything. My list has been changing on a daily basis as well (I envy those who have theirs already set in stone!). I know that I can get decent training at any of these places (or any other program for that matter). Just trying to sift out the nuances before hitting that final confirmation button.

 

[Tza]

It's understandable why you may be on the fence about these programs. They are both so similar that it should really be a toss up between them. Why don't you, dare I say, go with your gut feeling? Whichever you'll be sorry to miss? If you are still completely unsure, why don't you schedule a second visit with them both now (if you can afford it)?

Thanks psych. Unfortunately, second visit is not really possible for me and my gut feeling keeps changing every other day like I mentioned.

If anyone else can help, it would be nice. Thanks!

 

[Psychedelicious]

Redacted because I've come to realize my information here was not entirely accurate.

 

[RandyMarsh2014]

The list is certainly quite widespread so I'm not sure there would be many familiar with all the programs on your list. For instance, I know next to nothing about Syracuse/Upstate apart from the weird interview experiences of many I'd met during my interview trail (the "hyperanalytic" interview).

I'd rank the rest this way:

1. UAB
2. Rush
3. UChicago
4. University of Florida
5. Case
6. MCW

Appreciate the input Psych. This is a portion of my list that certainly has me stumped.. And yes, I had the pleasure of experiencing the "hyperanalytic" interview . It had definitely ruffled my feathers a bit in the beginning, but in all fairness, she/he did ask a lot of good questions, and I even felt like I had learned a great deal about myself. With that said, not sure if that intense of psychotherapy is my cup of tea...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Thanks psych. Unfortunately, second visit is not really possible for me and my gut feeling keeps changing every other day like I mentioned.

If anyone else can help, it would be nice. Thanks!

Well it really comes down to Cleveland & Ohio vs. Rochester & Minnesota, then.

 

[Tza]

Well it really comes down to Cleveland & Ohio vs. Rochester & Minnesota, then.

Thanks OldPsychDoc. I'd been thinking that as well and I kept fluctuating between the two cities as well so much so that I decided that location shouldn't even matter between these two places. I think I'll probably go with Mayo on top. Or Cleveland.

 

[funpebbles]

deleted

 

[Cottonwoods]

First of all, congratulations on having such excellent programs to choose from! I may not be in the best position to advise since I'm biased towards the two NYC programs you had posted (interviewed at both and loved them both whereas I didn't get an interview at McLean so I'm still bitter). However, reading your post, it seems sort of clear to me that you like McLean and Boston more than either of the NYC programs. Are you on the fence because of your spouse's slight preference for NYC? Or do you have other reservations?

Interview invites are a bit of a crapshoot, aren't they? I still have a couple programs I just ... never heard from. I do think my spouse's preference is throwing me for a loop here. I also feel pretty certain I could be happy at many places-- and that's a good feeling, and it feels great to gear up to be excited about embarking on a new phase of my life, in a new city. I suspect that programs are pretty set on their lists at this point, so I don't think there's much reaching out for me to do right now, just a whole lot of introspection. Are you thinking NYC?

 

[Psychedelicious]

Interview invites are a bit of a crapshoot, aren't they? I still have a couple programs I just ... never heard from. I do think my spouse's preference is throwing me for a loop here. I also feel pretty certain I could be happy at many places-- and that's a good feeling, and it feels great to gear up to be excited about embarking on a new phase of my life, in a new city. I suspect that programs are pretty set on their lists at this point, so I don't think there's much reaching out for me to do right now, just a whole lot of introspection. Are you thinking NYC?

Absolutely. I just love this city. But, I am still willing to move all the way to Michigan if I do not get my top two. I am single now so that makes it a lot easier I think. I do not know how crazy an idea this is, but what do you think about going away for next weekend to... Boston? And instead of staying at a hotel, stay with friends or even strangers (airbnb). Interacting with the people of the city and exploring it in a relaxed way might help change your spouse's preferences. Or maybe you'll end up changing yours! Either way, I feel it might be a worthy investment. While reading your first post makes me think that you will feel most sorry to let McLean go, as you have mentioned I am pretty sure you will be happy wherever you end up. So, your spouse's happiness becomes the most important factor. Who knows, we might end up as classmates! Fingers crossed. Good luck!

 

[shan564]

What a nice thread this is. I'm an IMG who isn't concerned as much about the location as I am with the academic caliber of the program and how accomplished a psychiatrist I would be at the end of my residency. Given that, how would you guys suggest I should rank Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic? I like them both equally and they have been shifting between #1 and #2 on my rank list every other day for the past few weeks. I'd really like to have a way to resolve this. Thanks.

Do you have any specific interests aside from being an "accomplished" psychiatrist?

I ranked Mayo #2 and Cleveland Clinic #3. I'd initially planned to put CC lower down on the list, but I was impressed by the diversity of their biological psychiatry offerings (interventional, sleep, pain, etc.), which is definitely more along where my interests lie.

Even though CC probably has a better focus for what I wanted to do, I ranked Mayo higher because I thought that they do a better job with general psychiatry. Where CC seems to focus on a particular niche, Mayo manages to do a fair bit of biological stuff while still ensuring that you get adequate exposure to real-world psychiatry. Even their biological research is more regular-patient-oriented, such as pharmacogenomics and neuroimaging. Also, Minnesota has better public health coverage, which means that you'd get better diversity across the income spectrum.

So in short - unless you have a specific interest that CC is known for (i.e. interventional psychiatry, sleep, pain, etc.), I'd almost certainly rank Mayo higher.

 

[ipharmacy]

Out of the three Midwest programs, I went to, my conclusion is still up in the air. How would you guys rank these three: MCW, Madison, and Indiana?

 

[Psychedelicious]

Redacted because I've come to realize my information here was not entirely accurate.

 

[psychblast]

Hello everyone,

I am a long-time lurker here, and am in the process of setting my rank order.
I have my own ranking list set up in my head, but want to hear what others have to say based on my preference.
My key factor for ranking would be the training itself. As a late comer into psychiatry, I would like to get the best training as I can get from the choices I have.
I would like a good balance of psychopharm vs. psychotherapy. Also, I am very likely to do a fellowship in child/adolescent as well, if that matters at all for ranking.

Another factor to consider is that I would like to go to a program in Chicago (I am not from Chicago, but have a family member there).
UIC is my top choice. However, I don't know which program (U of Chicago or Rush) to rank next due to their reputations.
U of Chicago didn't seem to be in that bad of a condition, and I was pleasantly surprised by what Rush had to offer.

But once again, I am stuck with the dilemma of wanting the best training that I can get, and I don't quite know where the Chicago programs rank in terms of their quality of training.

So I would really appreciate you guys' input.

Thanks in advance

Here is my list of programs in no particular order.

U of Wisconsin
U of Colorado
OHSU
UNC
Baylor
UT San Antonio
Indiana
UIC
Rush
U of Chicago
U of Utah

 

[Psychedelicious]

My key factor for ranking would be the training itself. As a late comer into psychiatry, I would like to get the best training as I can get from the choices I have. I would like a good balance of psychopharm vs. psychotherapy. Also, I am very likely to do a fellowship in child/adolescent as well, if that matters at all for ranking. Another factor to consider is that I would like to go to a program in Chicago (I am not from Chicago, but have a family member there). UIC is my top choice. However, I don't know which program (U of Chicago or Rush) to rank next due to their reputations. U of Chicago didn't seem to be in that bad of a condition, and I was pleasantly surprised by what Rush had to offer. But once again, I am stuck with the dilemma of wanting the best training that I can get, and I don't quite know where the Chicago programs rank in terms of their quality of training.

When it comes to ranking the Chicago programs, it is easy: UIC > Rush > UC. But it is after this that your personal preference would kick in and become the main modifier. In other words, how much you would like to be in Chicago versus how much you would like to "get the best training you can get from the choices you have". For instance, I would not rank UIC over UNC if location was not important. So, assuming location is paramount for you, this would be how I would rank them based on your preferences:

1. UIC
2. Rush
3. U of Chicago
4. U of Wisconsin (150 mi. from Chicago)
5. UNC (would be #1 but for your location preference)
6. U of Colorado (would be higher than U of Chicago but for your location preference)
7. U of Utah (excellent quality of training)
8. UT San Antonio (also quite good)
9. OHSU / Baylor (each have their own major negatives so take your pick, although OHSU may not be ideal if you are sure about going into child)

Once again, I'm not sure where Indiana would fit in this mix (if I have to guess, probably below Colorado and above Utah).

 

[Doctor Bagel]

When it comes to ranking the Chicago programs, it is easy: UIC > Rush > UC. But it is after this that your personal preference would kick in and become the main modifier. In other words, how much you would like to be in Chicago versus how much you would like to "get the best training you can get from the choices you have". For instance, I would not rank UIC over UNC if location was not important. So, assuming location is paramount for you, this would be how I would rank them based on your preferences:

1. UIC
2. Rush
3. U of Chicago
4. U of Wisconsin (150 mi. from Chicago)
5. UNC (would be #1 but for your location preference)
6. U of Colorado (would be higher than U of Chicago but for your location preference)
7. U of Utah (excellent quality of training)
8. UT San Antonio (also quite good)
9. OHSU / Baylor (each have their own major negatives so take your pick, although OHSU may not be ideal if you are sure about going into child)

Once again, I'm not sure where Indiana would fit in this mix (if I have to guess, probably below Colorado and above Utah).

How do you know these things with such certainty? Regarding these programs, we have someone here at OHSU who transferred from Utah and has been pretty open that both programs have strengths and weaknesses, which is likely true about all programs. It doesn't seem apparent that from her perspective, Utah was an "excellent" program while we're an apparently ****ty program. And she would know more than an applicant who spent a day somewhere.

Did you even interview at all of these programs?

 

[psychblast]

When it comes to ranking the Chicago programs, it is easy: UIC > Rush > UC. But it is after this that your personal preference would kick in and become the main modifier. In other words, how much you would like to be in Chicago versus how much you would like to "get the best training you can get from the choices you have". For instance, I would not rank UIC over UNC if location was not important. So, assuming location is paramount for you, this would be how I would rank them based on your preferences:

1. UIC
2. Rush
3. U of Chicago
4. U of Wisconsin (150 mi. from Chicago)
5. UNC (would be #1 but for your location preference)
6. U of Colorado (would be higher than U of Chicago but for your location preference)
7. U of Utah (excellent quality of training)
8. UT San Antonio (also quite good)
9. OHSU / Baylor (each have their own major negatives so take your pick, although OHSU may not be ideal if you are sure about going into child)

Once again, I'm not sure where Indiana would fit in this mix (if I have to guess, probably below Colorado and above Utah).

How do you know these things with such certainty? Regarding these programs, we have someone here at OHSU who transferred from Utah and has been pretty open that both programs have strengths and weaknesses, which is likely true about all programs. It doesn't seem apparent that from her perspective, Utah was an "excellent" program while we're an apparently ****** program. And she would know more than an applicant who spent a day somewhere.

Did you even interview at all of these programs?

Thank you both for your input.
I had similar idea of ranking with Psychedelicious with some place swaps here and there, and wanted to see what other people's thoughts were like.
And I also agree with Doctor Bagel that one should not have their rank order list made solely based on this thread.

I want to ask one more favor and list my programs if the location wasn't the main factor.

I realize that I am splitting hairs when it comes to comparing programs on my list.
None of them sticks out with "must go there" impression, and I would be happy anywhere I end up going as I enjoyed all of my interviews.

I am also little confused with U of Chicago vs. Rush. I had good vibes at U of Chicago, and was quite happy with what the program had to offer for their residents. The program did not seem that bad as SDN had made it out to be. Residents seemed happy to be there. Also, I didn't know what to expect from Rush as their website was all there was available prior to the interview, and the website was abysmal. Nonetheless, I really liked the fact that the program was growing and not diminishing, hiring more faculties over the past few years. However, U of Chicago seemed more academic and with more options when it came to fellowship, etc.

Once again, thanks for your help.

 

[Psychedelicious]

How do you know these things with such certainty? Regarding these programs, we have someone here at OHSU who transferred from Utah and has been pretty open that both programs have strengths and weaknesses, which is likely true about all programs. It doesn't seem apparent that from her perspective, Utah was an "excellent" program while we're an apparently ****** program. And she would know more than an applicant who spent a day somewhere. Did you even interview at all of these programs?

Of course every program has both strengths and weaknesses. I doubt there would exist a program in any specialty that would have no weaknesses in anyone's perspective. Excellent in no way implies an absence of weakness. It is simply about how the two balance - when one is significantly greater, it becomes excellent or poor. Taking everything into consideration, I definitely found the program at Ohio State to be excellent (the program has also been reviewed by two others in this year's review thread). And it is just my personal opinion that with OHSU, the negatives outweigh the positives. And considering the question related to things like best possible training, proximity to Chicago and inclination towards child/adolescent psychiatry, I do not see how one could have a better order than that. I am sorry if you felt offended that I mentioned your program last - it simply was not my intention to offend you or your choices. Perhaps I should refrain from posting my opinions in a public forum like this to avoid that in the future.

All through this interview season, fact finding was my only mission. I am pretty obsessive ("anal") and my desire to arm myself with a thorough knowledge about each program I interviewed at by the time I had to make the rank list (knowledge is power as they say) led me to wear my detective glasses and gather information about the programs from multiple sources - residents, program coordinator, faculty, residents on email, residents on SDN, forum archives, fellow medical students.

The self-serving mission devolved into an obsessive hobby when I began exchanging notes with the other students from my class going into psychiatry and found both our initial impressions and the real facts we found later shockingly similar (we have a surprisingly large number going into the specialty this year - either a skewed sample or our school's psychiatry department has done a great job inspiring students this year). From then on, we have been pooling our information and double-checking all the "outliers" using all the resources at our disposal. And to answer your last question, I have actually (surprisingly) interviewed at seven of those ten programs (I was advised not to apply to University of Chicago although a couple of my classmates did exactly that because they wanted Chicago and liked most of what they found). The same two had also interviewed at Rush, and I have based my comparison on what I know about those programs by proxy. And, I have a friend of sorts currently in residency at UTSA, although that means I know more about the negatives than the positives of the program!

 

[StECT]

All through this interview season, fact finding was my only mission. I am pretty obsessive ("anal") and my desire to arm myself with a thorough knowledge about each program I interviewed at by the time I had to make the rank list (knowledge is power as they say) led me to wear my detective glasses and gather information about the programs from multiple sources - residents, program coordinator, faculty, residents on email, residents on SDN, forum archives, fellow medical students.

Nice. I'm similar although it sounds like you're more obsessive than me and my neurotic friends combined! You should really post more reviews on the review thread whenever you can, archiving everything that you had learned for posterity.

 

[Tza]

Do you have any specific interests aside from being an "accomplished" psychiatrist?

I ranked Mayo #2 and Cleveland Clinic #3. I'd initially planned to put CC lower down on the list, but I was impressed by the diversity of their biological psychiatry offerings (interventional, sleep, pain, etc.), which is definitely more along where my interests lie.

Even though CC probably has a better focus for what I wanted to do, I ranked Mayo higher because I thought that they do a better job with general psychiatry. Where CC seems to focus on a particular niche, Mayo manages to do a fair bit of biological stuff while still ensuring that you get adequate exposure to real-world psychiatry. Even their biological research is more regular-patient-oriented, such as pharmacogenomics and neuroimaging. Also, Minnesota has better public health coverage, which means that you'd get better diversity across the income spectrum.

So in short - unless you have a specific interest that CC is known for (i.e. interventional psychiatry, sleep, pain, etc.), I'd almost certainly rank Mayo higher.

Thank you very much Dr. Shan.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Of course every program has both strengths and weaknesses. I doubt there would exist a program in any specialty that would have no weaknesses in anyone's perspective. Excellent in no way implies an absence of weakness. It is simply about how the two balance - when one is significantly greater, it becomes excellent or poor. Taking everything into consideration, I definitely found the program at Ohio State to be excellent (the program has also been reviewed by two others in this year's review thread). And it is just my personal opinion that with OHSU, the negatives outweigh the positives. And considering the question related to things like best possible training, proximity to Chicago and inclination towards child/adolescent psychiatry, I do not see how one could have a better order than that. I am sorry if you felt offended that I mentioned your program last - it simply was not my intention to offend you or your choices. Perhaps I should refrain from posting my opinions in a public forum like this to avoid that in the future.

All through this interview season, fact finding was my only mission. I am pretty obsessive ("anal") and my desire to arm myself with a thorough knowledge about each program I interviewed at by the time I had to make the rank list (knowledge is power as they say) led me to wear my detective glasses and gather information about the programs from multiple sources - residents, program coordinator, faculty, residents on email, residents on SDN, forum archives, fellow medical students.

The self-serving mission devolved into an obsessive hobby when I began exchanging notes with the other students from my class going into psychiatry and found both our initial impressions and the real facts we found later shockingly similar (we have a surprisingly large number going into the specialty this year - either a skewed sample or our school's psychiatry department has done a great job inspiring students this year). From then on, we have been pooling our information and double-checking all the "outliers" using all the resources at our disposal. And to answer your last question, I have actually (surprisingly) interviewed at seven of those ten programs (I was advised not to apply to University of Chicago although a couple of my classmates did exactly that because they wanted Chicago and liked most of what they found). The same two had also interviewed at Rush, and I have based my comparison on what I know about those programs by proxy. And, I have a friend of sorts currently in residency at UTSA, although that means I know more about the negatives than the positives of the program!

Obsessively detailed and yet you were unable to figure out the salaries for OHSU, which a quick google search would find, think lots of our faculty are analytically trained (not really), got numbers wrong for moonlighting here (and information about the general availability) and think Albuquerque is a better location than Portland (OK, fine, that's an opinion, and I like New Mexico. Not Albuquerque so much, though). So even with the details, you created assumptions about things and left a post with false impressions.

Honestly, I don't mean this to be a personal battle with you, but what I've gathered from reading the reviews from the one program I have an inside view of, it's amazing how full of misinformation they are, including listings our strengths and weaknesses. There are reviews stating that our PGY3 call schedule is brutal (well, if you count being on call every 1.5 months brutal, then yeah, I guess). There are reviews stating we're really strong in rural psychiatry (WTF? -- I guess if anything not in Manhattan is rural).

I get that it's nice to convince yourself that you have more control over your situation than you do and that you have more ability to know things that really likely aren't going to be known until you match. I wish that were true, but I don't think it is. I also get that this is an unpopular sentiment in threads like these.

 

[Psychotic]

.

 

[Nasrudin]

For all of the examples you cite here of oversight and misinformation, this is precisely why I am not posting any reviews, or at least part of the reason. It is also why I don't really pay that much attention to these reviews, at least not now that I have actually seen programs with my own eyes.

Which is not to say that I didn't form fairly strong opinions about the programs I saw and the people I met, I just don't think that my opinions of those things are important to anyone else mainly because what any of us experiences is at best an incomplete puzzle with more missing pieces than any of us can fully appreciate after an interview day. I agree with Doctor Bagel that some of the people posting reviews here have convinced themselves that they have a superior command of "facts" coupled with their own special powers of observation and unique appreciation of programs that they in reality know little about based on a single interview day beyond what any of us can glean from a program website or interview day handout. Furthermore we all have idiosyncracies and biases, and sometimes we may not even appreciate how much these influence our perceptions and opinions, much less can we (or should we even bother to) explain them to someone else who is trying to understand your match list, or your review of a program, for applicability to their needs and wants.

Hence why I have focused more on location in making up my rank list than program minutiae, at least for the top 50 percent of the programs I interviewed at that both passed the smell test on the program and had the features in a location that I most desired. But again, my evaluation of a location for my needs (family, climate, transit, etc) is pretty specific to me, so I keep this to myself, too.

Finally, I have read gushing and exuberant reviews of my home institution's program that reflect no real insight into the day to day life of the residents much less how all the separate parts fit together in a meaningful whole...or in other words, the applicants appear to have no idea what they are getting themselves into, not that I am in the program and could set them straight, but I am around it quite a bit and have gotten to know many of the residents and attendings and have a definite opinion about the suitability of the program for my own wants and needs. Hence why I don't put much stock in reviews from applicants of other places very much - they don't know what they don't or can't know.

I can fully appreciate your point of view. And share it to a large extent. But I think there might be something to be gained by the buzzing of the applicant hive mind. Strong, authoritative rebuttal feeds into the matrix and the hive buzzes at a different frequency.

What else do we have. The old crony system seems a good bit worse. So I'm choosing to put my cyber print into the matrix, come what may. I think my reviews are no different than talking about my favorite movies. Maybe somebody gets the idea to apply to a place. I read extensively and learned about the NYC scene. I applied to all the programs with subsidized housing. I learned all this from the hive.

Like you I didn't decide based on it. But I figured I owed it something. So I buzzed at my own frequency. The resulting concomitant noise is what it is. But in the end I liked participating.

 

[Psychedelicious]

Obsessively detailed and yet you were unable to figure out the salaries for OHSU, which a quick google search would find, think lots of our faculty are analytically trained (not really), got numbers wrong for moonlighting here (and information about the general availability) and think Albuquerque is a better location than Portland (OK, fine, that's an opinion, and I like New Mexico. Not Albuquerque so much, though). So even with the details, you created assumptions about things and left a post with false impressions.

Wow, you made me re-read my own review of OHSU. Let us examine the facts. I had mentioned that some of the faculty are analytically trained. I hadn't used the word "lots" in the entire review and yet I seemed to have said "lots" somehow.

Then comes the two least important metrics about any program - salary and moonlighting. I attend the interview, hear about how much the residents get paid to moonlight and get a flash drive that supposedly has "all" the details about the program. Now, for completion sake, I decide to include those metrics in my review since it was only my second review and I wanted to be reasonably thorough (if you notice I have skipped these less than valuable metrics in almost all my future reviews), and look through the flash drive only to find that the salary is not mentioned. Oh yes, of course I should have googled for that information - it was absolutely my negligence. How dare I not do that and post the "fact" that I could not find the salary details in the USB drive they gave us! And maybe I should have also taken down the details of the places the residents said they had been moonlighting at and called them to make sure I got the compensation right down to the second decimal.

And yes, I would be happier to live in Albuquerque than Portland, or for that matter, any place where there aren't grey skies and endless rain for months on end. Albuquerque is also just an hour from Santa Fe (you know, you can go skiing there as well).

I also don't mean to say all this to have a personal battle with you. It is just that I don't appreciate your feeble attempt to undermine my belief in myself or doubt my decision to learn as much as I can about the programs before I sign my life over for the next fours years. I'm sorry I don't share your view that just because there may be things about the programs that one cannot know before starting residency I should abandon all attempts to learn anything and just go with the gut feeling or whichever is the "popular" program that year. I'm sorry I'm not going to make the same mistake someone on this thread made four years ago.

 

[okayhunny]

Even though this is a big ask, I'm gonna do this for you since I like doing this sort of thing, and also because your priorities are eerily close to mine! I'm beginning to suspect most of us think very similar! Anyway, here goes:

1. Mount Sinai
2. Albert Einstein
3. UNC
4. Emory
5. UIC
6. North Shore-LIJ
7. Beth Israel (NYC)
8. St. Luke's-Roosevelt
9. UCLA-San Fernando Valley
10. Mayo Clinic
11. Boston University
12. University of Chicago
13. UTSW
14. Rush
15. UMD
16. Tufts
17. University of Rochester
18. Baylor
19. University at Buffalo
20. Georgetown

Even though Emory has a reputation of hard work on SDN, I can confidently tell you that it isn't quite the case in reality as I investigated this thoroughly. They definitely don't work as hard as the likes of UMD or the Texas programs on your list, Baylor and UTSW, and you get very good training. But, if you only want cush residencies, push them all to the bottom of your rank list and forgo the palpitations on match day.

Hi. It's me again. My list is coming along, but I'm really conflicted about my #3. I know that I would get great training at programs like UNC and UIC, but I also know that I would prefer to be in NYC. However, I'm worried I will not receive the same quality of training at Beth Israel. This may be because I didn't meet as many faculty at Beth Israel as I did at other programs on interview day. Is this notion inaccurate? I don't want to sacrifice training for location. Please let me know how Beth Israel measures up. Thank you so much!

 

[Tza]

I have a question about a couple of programs in the middle of my rank list both of them not very well discussed here on the forum but I still thought I will ask for opinions: St Louis University vs University of Texas in Houston. I like Houston more than St Louis in terms of city but I got a better feeling from the program at St Louis. Can anyone tell me some other pros and cons of these two places because Im still very confused. Thanks.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think both BI and SLR would give great high volume clinical training in New York. I have to ask if you've ever lived down south. These locations are different planets. They'd have to make some difference. Emory covers Grady for other specialties and you're in for the real deal county experience. I don't know anything about their psych programs.

I agree with you about the allure of AE-monte. But going down below the Mason Dixon before choosing SLR and BI makes no sense.

Why would you do that? I'm interested in discussing it, because we have a lot of the same programs on our list, but I can't imagine where you're coming from.

 

[jno]

I think both BI and SLR would give great high volume clinical training in New York. I have to ask if you've ever lived down south. These locations are different planets. They'd have to make some difference. Emory covers Grady for other specialties and you're in for the real deal county experience. I don't know anything about their psych programs.

I agree with you about the allure of AE-monte. But going down below the Mason Dixon before choosing SLR and BI makes no sense.

Why would you do that? I'm interested in discussing it, because we have a lot of the same programs on our list, but I can't imagine where you're coming from.

Ha ha, the south is actually a very nice place to live in! You should come down sometime! UNC is also a great program. It is actually near the top of my rank list and I don't know if I'll choose BIMC over UNC even if I haven't lived in the south before.

 

[Nasrudin]

You have or haven't lived down south...I'm confused.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I can fully appreciate your point of view. And share it to a large extent. But I think there might be something to be gained by the buzzing of the applicant hive mind. Strong, authoritative rebuttal feeds into the matrix and the hive buzzes at a different frequency.

What else do we have. The old crony system seems a good bit worse. So I'm choosing to put my cyber print into the matrix, come what may. I think my reviews are no different than talking about my favorite movies. Maybe somebody gets the idea to apply to a place. I read extensively and learned about the NYC scene. I applied to all the programs with subsidized housing. I learned all this from the hive.

Like you I didn't decide based on it. But I figured I owed it something. So I buzzed at my own frequency. The resulting concomitant noise is what it is. But in the end I liked participating.

Great point. I think these are very helpful - it's not everything but it is something.

 

[okayhunny]

I think both BI and SLR would give great high volume clinical training in New York. I have to ask if you've ever lived down south. These locations are different planets. They'd have to make some difference. Emory covers Grady for other specialties and you're in for the real deal county experience. I don't know anything about their psych programs.

I agree with you about the allure of AE-monte. But going down below the Mason Dixon before choosing SLR and BI makes no sense.

Why would you do that? I'm interested in discussing it, because we have a lot of the same programs on our list, but I can't imagine where you're coming from.

I think my real conflict is between UIC and BI aka Chicago and NYC. I would go to Chicago before jumping down south - but that is because I have never lived there. Psychotherapy training is very important to me and I'm not sure how this compares as well. And I felt I connected better with the faculty and residents at AE than BI.

 

[psychresident14]

Hello all. I already have my list completed, but I would like the input of others, and who better than the wonderful SDN Psychiatry crowd.

I ranked based on location for the first few slots, followed by quality of program and overall feeling of fit, but I'm curious about how I might rank if location was not a factor. A little bit about me: I'm looking for a well-rounded program that has good psychotherapy training, and I would like for the program to have a good geri fellowship. Strong community psych training is a major plus. Options for rural rotations is also a plus. I would also like to have the opportunity to pursue teaching interests.

My programs: Dartmouth, University of Wisconsin, University of Louisville, MSU, Palmetto, MCW, Case Western, Cleveland Clinic, UW, UW Boise, Iowa, Vanderbilt.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

I'm a current second year resident at a reputable institution, and from my experiences during interviewing and what I know from friends, I would rank your programs as follows:

1. Vanderbilt
2. Dartmouth
3. UW
4/5 tied. University of Wisconsin and Palmetto
6. Cleveland Clinic
7. Case Western
8. Iowa
9. University of Louisville
10. MCW
11. UW Boise
12. MSU

 

[Nasrudin]

I think my real conflict is between UIC and BI aka Chicago and NYC. I would go to Chicago before jumping down south - but that is because I have never lived there. Psychotherapy training is very important to me and I'm not sure how this compares as well. And I felt I connected better with the faculty and residents at AE than BI.

I see. Yeah the Monte people were wonderful. And I connected with them much more than BI myself. And if therapy is key for you then it makes sense to go elsewhere if you think it'll mean you have the tools to do what you want post residency. I guess I think of clinical training as separate from therapy training. But I can see what you mean if the type of clinical work you want to do involves a lot of therapy.

Good luck!

 

[jno]

So...you have or you haven't lived there? Cause I was raised there a worked every ****-kicking crap hole town in babe southeast working construction. Getting out meant never having to go back. But....different strokes.

I know nothing of the southern programs. They could be Ace #1 top dog clinical powerhouses and I could care less.

But I actually interpreted the pure clinical experience at SLR and BI as very strong. But...what do I know. It's probably the exception that has weak clinical experience. But I've seen that up close at my home program so I made a point to look for rigorous workload and a good reputation for education in my top selections.

Gosh I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it that way at all. I've lived in the south most of my life, went to undergrad in NYC, came back to the south for medical school and even though I've interviewed at a lot of the programs in NYC with the intention of getting back to the city, I'm still ranking UNC higher than BIMC/SLR since not only do you get the strong clinical training here but the academics and other opportunities are also very good. I only meant that even if I hadn't spent all the time I had spent in the south, I would be hesitant to rank those two NYC programs above UNC, NOT because BIMC/SLR are not good (they are), but because UNC is even better (IMO of course).

 

[psychresident14]

I agree with Psychotic above.

1. University of Pittsburgh/WPIC
2. Duke University
3. University of Iowa
4. University of Utah
5. University of Vermont/Fletcher Allen
6. University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt
7. University of Florida (Gainesville) (although Gainesville would beat Baltimore in safety hands down, I probably wouldn't rank this program higher unless safety is very important to you)
8. DMC/Wayne State University
9. Virginia Commonwealth University
10. Penn State University

I agree with you guys, but I would shift some based on personal experiences and close friends who are current residents at most of these programs.

1. University of Pittsburgh/WPIC
2. Duke University
3. University of Utah
4. University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt
5. University of Iowa
6. University of Vermont/Fletcher Allen
7. University of Florida
   
8. Virginia Commonwealth University
9. DMC/Wayne State University
10. Penn State University

 

[Nasrudin]

Gosh I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it that way at all. I've lived in the south most of my life, went to undergrad in NYC, came back to the south for medical school and even though I've interviewed at a lot of the programs in NYC with the intention of getting back to the city, I'm still ranking UNC higher than BIMC/SLR since not only do you get the strong clinical training here but the academics and other opportunities are also very good. I only meant that even if I hadn't spent all the time I had spent in the south, I would be hesitant to rank those two NYC programs above UNC, NOT because BIMC/SLR are not good (they are), but because UNC is even better (IMO of course).

Naw man, my bad I got confused over who I was responding to. I mixed in your post in with the other one. I edited it once I realized I was off. Yeah the south is great if it's for you. As an atheist in a mixed relationship it kind of let's you know what it thinks about you. And then that turns into what you think about it. There are some things I miss about it that I don't find anywhere else.

Good luck to you. I'm glad you guys are finding good programs down there.

 

[psychresident14]

Thank you both for your input.
I had similar idea of ranking with Psychedelicious with some place swaps here and there, and wanted to see what other people's thoughts were like.
And I also agree with Doctor Bagel that one should not have their rank order list made solely based on this thread.

I want to ask one more favor and list my programs if the location wasn't the main factor.

I realize that I am splitting hairs when it comes to comparing programs on my list.
None of them sticks out with "must go there" impression, and I would be happy anywhere I end up going as I enjoyed all of my interviews.

I am also little confused with U of Chicago vs. Rush. I had good vibes at U of Chicago, and was quite happy with what the program had to offer for their residents. The program did not seem that bad as SDN had made it out to be. Residents seemed happy to be there. Also, I didn't know what to expect from Rush as their website was all there was available prior to the interview, and the website was abysmal. Nonetheless, I really liked the fact that the program was growing and not diminishing, hiring more faculties over the past few years. However, U of Chicago seemed more academic and with more options when it came to fellowship, etc.

Once again, thanks for your help.

Currently, I think UChicago has really been upping its ante over the past few years, and I would almost rank it pretty close (but not equal to) to UIC.

 

[jno]

I agree with you guys, but I would shift some based on personal experiences and close friends who current residents from most of these programs.

Iowa has a great program IMO, with great resources for research as well. Ranking it below Utah or Maryland does not make sense to me. Of course Iowa City isn't the greatest city in the world, but compared to Salt Lake City or Baltimore, it wins on the city front as well. I would definitely rank Iowa higher for so many reasons.

 

[psychresident14]

Iowa has a great program IMO, with great resources for research as well. Ranking it below Utah or Maryland does not make sense to me. Of course Iowa City isn't the greatest city in the world, but compared to Salt Lake City or Baltimore, it wins on the city front as well. I would definitely rank Iowa higher for so many reasons.

Of course, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Iowa City is a nice place for sure with great research. Salt Lake City is an easy place to live. In each city, there is always some places to avoid. Same with Baltimore, although more expensive, and it's a happening place. I think that Salt Lake City and Baltimore are very culturally diverse, so the greater the exposure to less common psych condition. Sheppard Pratt's research is top-notch as well. All in all, as the proverbial phrase, ranking all comes down to your "gut" feeling.

 

[jno]

Not really. AFAIK the research being done at MPRC is fairly limited compared to the research at Iowa, especially in schizophrenia. The program at Iowa is also very well rounded clinically while being not as hardworking. I really don't know how you can rank Iowa lower than Utah or Maryland. It just doesn't make sense to me. But, different strokes for different folks I guess.