Official 2015 Rank Order List and "Help me rank" thread

[HarryMTieboutMD]

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Why do you think that? I'm just curious since perhaps I'm missing something or didn't see something on the interview day.

In terms of overall reputation between Michigan and UTSW, there is not THAT much of a difference. Both are academic powerhouses. Some people though UTSW took a hit when Eric Nestler left, but Carol Tamminga still runs a powerful department with a lot of NIH funding and big names (Carol North). I think it's hard to compare to the patient population that comes through Parkland (probably similar to Grady in ATL or Bellevue in NYC), so the clinical training is amazing. The PD is an analyst (as everyone who has interviewed there knows quite well), so if if you want to do that but avoid the northeast then you will have support.

Michigan likewise has some big names and a well respected department. Ann Arbor, however is NOT inexpensive (unless you want to live with the undergrads), though it is one of the most amazing places in the world (I went to undergrad there). The food and culture is great, but it can get pretty pricey, even for a college town. Michigan football hired the best coach out there, and if you match at Michigan, you will be able to witness the most storied rivalry in all of sports re invent itself and become nationally relevant again. Jim Harbaugh vs Urban Meyer will be legendary, and you will not want to miss it (besides intern year when you will most likely be working/sleeping). GO BLUE!

 

[goonies2000]

Wash U: One of the most established and storied psychiatry departments in the country. The department was among the first to champion the medical model of psychiatric disease at a time when academic psychiatry was dominated by analysts, and from the tradition of the department arose DSM 3. The training is on the intensive side (moreso than most places) but not overwhelming to the point of diminishing returns. Interns are treated as medicine residents when rotating on the medicine service (all inpatient at Barnes Jewish). With the pitfalls of DSM V, the department is now focusing on teaching psychiatry in terms of clinical neuroscience. Both the chair and the PD are basic scientists, and the chair and vice chair of education are prolific writers and very well respected in the realm of biological psychiatry. The program has a reputation for being dismissive of therapy, but this is not true. Residents receive extensive therapy training, particularly in the 3rd year. The department has an impressive list of faculty with a lot of NIH grant funding. Just google "Robert Cloninger". The department is particularly known for psychiatric epidemiology but has a lot of important research in all of the basic and clinical sciences.

this program really impressed me! their PD is awesome and their chair is incredibly down to earth (he takes time to meet each of the applicants individually). the quality of their clinical training and didactics is very high, they have a a lot of flexibility in their schedule and they stressed to me that they don't care if you chose not to do research, but that it is a great place to get started on it if you do. you will learn therapy (CBT, etc), but i was told point blank by multiple people that if i wanted to learn psychodynamic psychotherapy, i should go elsewhere. the first two years are intense, and they start off with a lot of independence.

 

[Soggun]

Thanks for your input, Soggun. I was thinking of "going with my gut too" until I typed up an email to CHA "you are my #1" and could not send it... and then I realized that maybe my gut was actually telling me something else... so now I'm suddenly reversing the two. From what you know (or may not know), does Longwood care about the #1 emails?

One other question about Longwood--who do you look to as your mentor and advocate? Do you feel like the PDs/aPDs play that role or is it someone else that you feel like you gravitated towards after meeting/working with several people?

I don't know exactly how the PDs/APDs factor in letters of interest or specifically letters saying that we are their #1 choice. It certainly can't be a bad thing (provided it's accurate of course) but what I suspect is that the influence that has on a ranking is relatively minor. For the most part, I think we're looking for the best applicants that we think will gel well in our community and that the program ranks according to that. Sincere interest is wonderful and definitely a lot better than coming across as being ambivalent about the program, but I doubt it'll make or break things to send a letter.

Regarding mentorship, I've worked with a number of folks whom I've considered mentors. I think they provided different roles for me at times when I needed different things. For the most part, they've been attendings on services I've been on whom I've respected greatly and felt I could learn something from. Everyone I've approached has been very enthusiastic about mentoring me - including my current mentor - and that has been very encouraging. When you arrive at the program you're assigned either the PD or one of the APDs as your mentor and you meet with them with some degree of regularity (which varies person to person but at least multiple times per year) throughout residency who helps provide some continuity and a global perspective. My APD has been very helpful to me and at times has been a primary mentor to me, but as my interests have developed and shifted, I've just gravitated to people who are doing things that are more in line with my career goals and such. I still meet with my APD and value her input immensely, but I think it's natural to shift focus a little bit as your interests become more clearly defined - or at least this has been my experience.

It sounds like you have a tough decision to make though. It's never easy and there are a lot of factors to weigh, but the good news is that I think you're deciding between 2 great programs and that either way you go, you're bound to get a great education and experience in residency.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

....
Michigan likewise has some big names and a well respected department. Ann Arbor, however is NOT inexpensive (unless you want to live with the undergrads), though it is one of the most amazing places in the world (I went to undergrad there). The food and culture is great, but it can get pretty pricey, even for a college town. Michigan football hired the best coach out there, and if you match at Michigan, you will be able to witness the most storied rivalry in all of sports re invent itself and become nationally relevant again. Jim Harbaugh vs Urban Meyer will be legendary, and you will not want to miss it (besides intern year when you will most likely be working/sleeping). GO BLUE!

There's always Ypsilanti*, which my friend said is Greek for "I can't afford Ann Arbor".
I have a bet with another friend that there will be more psychotic breaks on the sideline than B1G conference titles under Harbaugh in the next 5 years though.

(*Also now known as "Hipsterlanti")

 

[Aequanimitatis]

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[Bartelby]

I am a PGY3 and have not applied for attending positions yet so take this with a grain of salt, but I think performing well at Yale, Penn, UCSF or Stanford would set you up for an NYC or Boston academic job. What would set you up better, though, would be a residency in NYC or Boston. The local connections will mean a lot in landing a first job, and will probably help you carry a sense of community after starting as a junior attending. If you want a PP, it also doesn't hurt to have a whole network of senior people who can't fit in any new patients and would trust you enough to pass those intakes along! Also keep in mind that matching to a local fellowship could give some of the same benefits.

To answer your question, though, all of those programs are excellent. With good references, clinical performance, ideally publications, teaching recognition, etc I don't see any reason that you would not be qualified for a career in any academic medical center from any of them. For (1) specifically Yale and Penn seem close enough that I would not sweat the prestige factor from either, though if you are weighing that heavily I think Yale has a slight edge.

 

[myPsychAlt]

There's always Ypsilanti*, which my friend said is Greek for "I can't afford Ann Arbor".
I have a bet with another friend that there will be more psychotic breaks on the sideline than B1G conference titles under Harbaugh in the next 5 years though.

(*Also now known as "Hipsterlanti")

Careful not to confuse Axis I with Axis II pathology when talking about certain football coaches.

 

[wannabie]

This will be a pretty long post, but since there aren't any actual rank lists on here, I'm going to post mine with my thought process. I'm a US-IMG and I get the feeling that my list might only be helpful for IMG's. Anyway, could any of you point out if I have any unnecessary cognitive biases at play or if I'm being plain silly about something?

I like strong teaching, cool locations, positive vibes, and a strong and active resident culture. I'm not bothered by weather either. Also, lack of diversity concerns me. Is it a bad thing that IMG's are filling these University programs and that the schools can't retain their own students?

NOT IN ANY SPECIFIC ORDER

1. University of Louisville
It's a university program with every exposure to every important psychiatric experience including ECT and TMS. I had some wonderful interactions with faculty members. One doc invited me to sit in on a lecture he was giving a resident while I waited for an interview and it blew me away. He turned out to be a top 100 psychiatrist and all that jazz. I got along incredibly well with the residents who I found to be smart and dedicated. The resident culture was fantastic. I went out with the applicants after the interview, and we bumped into thirty Louisville residents hanging out at a bar. Most of the other programs on my list thought hanging out with colleagues like that was bizarre. It also had some nice benefits like 45 hour weeks PGY3,4 with some great moonlighting opportunities. They have their own fellowships if I want to stick around.

But it's also a program in flux. There's a new program director and a new chair of the department. Pro tip: the program director is really really hot. Don't get phased by her good looks or the fact she will not make eye contact with you and only look at her iPhone for the duration of your interview with her. Also, they activate a telepsychiatry camera when they bring the applicants into a conference room.

I liked the city of Louisville. There was one incredible neighborhood that I found to be cooler than the nicest parts of Brooklyn. While I am American born, I'm concerned about diversity since I'm South Asian. I'm just not sure I can spend more than a few years here.

2. Psychiatry Residency Spokane (formerly University of Washington Spokane Track)
This is a brand new program that follows from the University of Washington Spokane track, which means I believe its underrated. It's got a strong emphasis on psychotherapy, which I liked and the program director took a great deal of time choosing and timing experiences for the program. The facilities were brand new and swanky as heck. They had a hipster coffee shop in the hospital, which I have an irrational love for. But then again, it's a brand new program......

Spokane's a cool city, but it's a little provincial and has quite a few homeless people. There's some restaurants and bars, but not much else to do there. I like hiking and camping and I guess I'll be doing a lot of it there.

3. Hennepin County Medical Center
I really wanted to like this program, but it didn't manage to make much of an impression and part of the reason was that I had bad sinusitis when I interviewed. It's got great patient diversity because of their two hospitals. And the residents seem to really like the faculty. It's a tiny sample size, but I wasn't very impressed by the faculty I interviewed with. I didn't seem to get along with the residents very well either, which is bizarre to me since I'm generally really good at that. The residents seem to work really really hard there too. I don't know what the average is, but 75 hours on PGY3-4? That's almost twice what every other place has told me.

I've read a lot of great (but nonspecific) things on this forum about the program.

I really really like Minneapolis and the snow doesn't bother me at all. But the mosquitoes in the summer? That might be a problem. I think I've fallen in love with the idea of living there and I think that's really dumb.

My list gets really murky after this to the point where they're probably interchangeable.

4. St. Elizabeth's DC
This is an interesting program in that they are the only tertiary care center in the DC area. They deal with the sickest of the sick and get good experience with emergent management of crises. I'm interested in pursuing forensics afterwards and this hospital seems great for that, but I'm concerned that I won't get much exposure to patient populations that I might eventually practice with if I choose otherwise.

Had a terrible interview day at this place. They said they would provide breakfast and then didn't. I have dietary restrictions they chose to not accommodate. So between 8pm the previous night and 4pm the day of the interview, I had a protein bar and two cookies. Was pretty pissed. One interviewer fell asleep on me (it seemed all the teaching faculty were older than 80). But then he woke up and said he would give me his strongest possible recommendation. The associate program director basically asked me how I would do her job and she asked a bunch of questions that violated NRMP's policy. I don't know if I should be reporting that or not. The program director grilled me on my blog. He insisted on talking about it for twenty minutes and then asked me if I ever felt lonely from being too smart. I also got the impression he cared only about board scores and publication. They told me no residents were available to meet me because they were off at other clinics but begrudgingly sent two residents to talk to me. Turns out all the residents were just hanging out and having lunch together a few rooms down.

The residents seemed ecstatic about the program and told me they were much more experienced and capable than friends at other psych programs. They also told me the program director hated to see residents go into child because it meant more costs for the program.

I had to see myself out at the end of the day. It was a terrible experience, but does that really mean my training will be terrible? I dunno.

5. Howard University
I had a good interview day here. This place seemed average, but competent in every regard. They seemed very biologically oriented. I hear not so great things about the program like "it's bleeding money". "Oh, is the chair still talking about those same old studies he did decades ago?" I didn't sleepwalk through this interview day. I swear. Oh, and they have a quiz: 10 multiple choice questions with an essay.

6. Rosalind Franklin/Chicago Medical School
The program director gave a fascinating and incredibly cynical speech to start the day. I loved it, but he seemed really mad that the school had been put on probation before.

It seemed like a super chill program, but I'm concerned I won't get enough experience and exposure to practice. Their primary hospital is VA only. So, I don't think I'm going to get enough exposure to a wide patient population. They were biologically oriented.

It's not actually in Chicago. It's an hour north of Chicago.

7. University of Tennessee
I thought they had a really well organized program. I don't have the details because....I'm not detail oriented I guess. They actually didn't make any attempt to sell the program to me. The didactics I attended was unimpressive. The residents seemed pretty smart. I was impressed with the faculty members I met though. I just don't think I can live in Memphis. I went out at night there and there wasn't much going on at all......I saw a cool blues band, but how many times can I really do that for four years? Its got a burgeoning hipster scene, so maybe there will be stuff for me to do? If this program was located elsewhere, I'd definitely have ranked it much higher.

Uhh, if you read it this far, what do you think? DID I DO IT RIGHT?

 

[barzan]

I went to University of Tennessee, I liked the location and the interaction with the residents was great, yet, the downside there wasn't a tour provided for us to explore and to get to know the facilities which I find a bit weird knowing that I traveled from far away at least I earn the right to see the type of environment that I might end up. Other then that faculty resident ratio was a bit questionable, in terms of quantity it was limited in that aspect. Moreover, research was very limited yet the PD showed encouragement for any residents interested in taking part of it.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

This will be a pretty long post, but since there aren't any actual rank lists on here, I'm going to post mine with my thought process. I'm a US-IMG and I get the feeling that my list might only be helpful for IMG's. Anyway, could any of you point out if I have any unnecessary cognitive biases at play or if I'm being plain silly about something?
...
Uhh, if you read it this far, what do you think? DID I DO IT RIGHT?

Sounds like you're still dealing with a fair amount of ambivalence about your top choices, but all that matters is whether you're doing it right for you.
Sounds like you may have met more questionable characters than role models on the trail though...or maybe that's just selective reporting. Still, it might not be exceptionally professional to be commenting on the "hotness" of a PD.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Careful not to confuse Axis I with Axis II pathology when talking about certain football coaches.

Point taken, but remember why they called it 'Borderline'!

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Stimulating and enjoyable discussion in this thread. I have read and learned a lot about the different programs and their strengths/weakness across the country. I would love some experienced opinions on a few Psychiatry programs as I am couples matching with a SO going into Psychiatry. In bullet form if I may:

1) Is there any difference in connections/job outlook for a Penn vs. Yale Psychiatry grad? Specifically if one was planning to move on to a faculty appointment (possibly with a private practice on the side) in Boston or New York City? It seems clear that Yale is a top-notch Psychiatry program and I do not worry at all about a Yale grad being able to do anything they please, the question being is Penn right there or a notch below?

2) As far as UCSF and Stanford Psychiatry grads are concerned, both incredible programs of course, do they both carry sufficient weight to move on to a faculty appointment in Boston or NYC?

Any insight on the "next step" beyond residency is much appreciated as my SO and I try to position ourselves best for the next step and compromise accordingly residency wise.

Yale psychiatry seems to breed department chairs who have definitely made their respective marks in academia. Some big names that come to mind include Mark Gold, Eric Nestler, Chris McDougle, Wayne Goodman, Tom Uhde, John Krystal (Yale's own chair) and many more

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Sounds like you're still dealing with a fair amount of ambivalence about your top choices, but all that matters is whether you're doing it right for you.
Sounds like you may have met more questionable characters than role models on the trail though...or maybe that's just selective reporting. Still, it might not be exceptionally professional to be commenting on the "hotness" of a PD.

I don't know about you OPD, but anyone can call me hot anytime they want...anyone....anyone...

 

[liquidshadow22]

im conflicted about ranking between UTSW and Mt Sinai Beth Israel. Which one goes higher and why?

I'm interested in research and academic psych. Beth Israel itself isn't a huge research place, but there seems to be ample opportunities to get involved with faculty at Mt Sinai Hospital. Also good location in NYC.

UTSW: strong research institution. Dallas is a nice city, but not NYC. Probably has a better national reputation than Beth Israel?

 

[burlingtoncoatfactory]

Had a terrible interview day at this place. They said they would provide breakfast and then didn't. I have dietary restrictions they chose to not accommodate. So between 8pm the previous night and 4pm the day of the interview, I had a protein bar and two cookies. Was pretty pissed. One interviewer fell asleep on me (it seemed all the teaching faculty were older than 80). But then he woke up and said he would give me his strongest possible recommendation. The associate program director basically asked me how I would do her job and she asked a bunch of questions that violated NRMP's policy. I don't know if I should be reporting that or not. The program director grilled me on my blog. He insisted on talking about it for twenty minutes and then asked me if I ever felt lonely from being too smart. I also got the impression he cared only about board scores and publication. They told me no residents were available to meet me because they were off at other clinics but begrudgingly sent two residents to talk to me. Turns out all the residents were just hanging out and having lunch together a few rooms down.

The residents seemed ecstatic about the program and told me they were much more experienced and capable than friends at other psych programs. They also told me the program director hated to see residents go into child because it meant more costs for the program.

I had to see myself out at the end of the day. It was a terrible experience, but does that really mean my training will be terrible? I dunno.

I had a similarly themed interview day in case you thought this was a one off thing. It seemed like a decent enough program where you'd get comfortable managing anything and everything. One tip for all future interviews, be it fellowships, jobs, etc. is to eat before you go. That way if a dietary issue comes up or there isn't time for a meal, things go smoother. Plus you can focus on the interview during eating time rather than what there is to eat.

 

[burlingtoncoatfactory]

Hey everyone. Now that interview season is coming to a close I had some questions about ranking. A bit about myself, so far I've enjoyed learning and managing the more acute aspects of adult psychiatry; emergency psychiatry, inpatient, county/underserved/prisons, etc. I have no plans on fellowship, though I'm not against it, and no plans on child, but would like to leave open the idea of being an academic part time later on and have the opportunity to remain involved in cutting edge clinical research but not bench research. I like learning about psychopharm and the biological underpinnings of psychiatric disorders but want to get competent training in therapy as well. As far as location,I enjoy practicing in inner city urban areas and would like to end up as an attending in SF > LA=Chicago > DC=Boston. I have family in the midwest and many friends in NorCal and SoCal, but otherwise nothing tying me down to one geographic area. With that said, I'm having trouble finalizing things, particularly #3-6, and wanted some guidance. I want to make sure ranking some places over others isn't likely to close lots of doors. I'm a DO and am most concerned that going to less name brand places might close doors for academics in the future. I'm relatively set on my #1 and #2 but would appreciate guidance and/or advice. Thank you.

1) UCLA SFV: Loved the ER focus and having a dedicated in house county psych ED.
2) Tufts: Felt like the program I best connected with the residents and faculty. Academics, inner city training, and a good ED focus all in one.

3-6) Alphabetically as I have no idea how to rank these

Advocate Lutheran General: Felt like a family. It's out in the suburbs and a small program but seemed to have great facilities and a decent ED opportunities

Georgetown: Like Tufts, had good academics, good consult focus, and some inner city training, all in one.

IndianaU: Gem of a program. Great facilities. Great people. Great integration with other specialties.

WashU: Great medicine training, great history and reputation, and I felt the residents came out super prepared from a biological side with competent training in therapy. Okay ED opportunities with lots of great clinics to rotate in.

7)MCW: Great hours and therapy training with an in house psych ED one can moonlight at with those great hours.
8) Loyola
9) Harvard South Shore
10) St. Elizabeth's DC

 

[Opira]

1) UCLA SFV: Loved the ER focus and having a dedicated in house county psych ED.
2) Tufts: Felt like the program I best connected with the residents and faculty. Academics, inner city training, and a good ED focus all in one.

3-6) Alphabetically as I have no idea how to rank these

Advocate Lutheran General: Felt like a family. It's out in the suburbs and a small program but seemed to have great facilities and a decent ED opportunities

Georgetown: Like Tufts, had good academics, good consult focus, and some inner city training, all in one.

IndianaU: Gem of a program. Great facilities. Great people. Great integration with other specialties.

WashU: Great medicine training, great history and reputation, and I felt the residents came out super prepared from a biological side with competent training in therapy. Okay ED opportunities with lots of great clinics to rotate in.

7)MCW: Great hours and therapy training with an in house psych ED one can moonlight at with those great hours.
8) Loyola
9) Harvard South Shore
10) St. Elizabeth's DC

Some of the ranking methods people use are so hard to understand. How is SFV #1 and Tufts #2 on a list with excellent programs like MCW, WashU and IU?

 

[burlingtoncoatfactory]

Some of the ranking methods people use are so hard to understand. How is SFV #1 and Tufts #2 on a list with excellent programs like MCW, WashU and IU?

Heck, that's why I come for advice 🙂
I liked the psych ED focus and location at SFV and thought Tufts was a good mix of everything I liked with less of an ED focus. I was impressed with the other programs you mentioned but don't foresee living there past residency and assume networking in residency > SDN prestige. But I'm young and inexperienced and hoping for others to comment.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

im conflicted about ranking between UTSW and Mt Sinai Beth Israel. Which one goes higher and why?

I'm interested in research and academic psych. Beth Israel itself isn't a huge research place, but there seems to be ample opportunities to get involved with faculty at Mt Sinai Hospital. Also good location in NYC.

UTSW: strong research institution. Dallas is a nice city, but not NYC. Probably has a better national reputation than Beth Israel?

If you want a career in academia, UTSW UTSW UTSW. UTSW is a research powerhouse with huge names in academic psychiatry (see previous post). The clinical training is unparalleled, and it is one of the most respected academic medical centers in the world. Dallas is AFFORDABLE, metropolitan, urbane, and fun- lots of art, culture, music, sports... The traffic is terrible, but that's the only drawback.

Beth Israel just recently came under the auspices of Sinai, and though it is part of the same healthcare system (the largest in NYC), it is not equivalent to being at Mount Sinai. I didn't interview at Beth Israel, but I interviewed at Mount Sinai, and the PD made it clear that the three psychiatry residency programs (Sinai, Beth Israel, St. Luke's) would be independent of each other and that each set of residents would remain at their respective hospitals (4th year electives notwithstanding).

So yes, UTSW... and it's not even close.

 

[liquidshadow22]

If you want a career in academia, UTSW UTSW UTSW. UTSW is a research powerhouse with huge names in academic psychiatry (see previous post). The clinical training is unparalleled, and it is one of the most respected academic medical centers in the world. Dallas is AFFORDABLE, metropolitan, urbane, and fun- lots of art, culture, music, sports... The traffic is terrible, but that's the only drawback.

Beth Israel just recently came under the auspices of Sinai, and though it is part of the same healthcare system (the largest in NYC), it is not equivalent to being at Mount Sinai. I didn't interview at Beth Israel, but I interviewed at Mount Sinai, and the PD made it clear that the three psychiatry residency programs (Sinai, Beth Israel, St. Luke's) would be independent of each other and that each set of residents would remain at their respective hospitals (4th year electives notwithstanding).

So yes, UTSW... and it's not even close.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that from a clinical perspective, residents will not spend time at Mt Sinai Hospital until the fourth year, but from what I understood from the interview. It seems the access to research faculty will be available to residents from all campuses. If that's the case, then I should get a great research experience there if I want it?

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Large academia is not everybody's cup of tea. I can totally see how certain personalities or styles would much prefer UCLA SFV over WashU. There's nothing surprising to me about that.

I'm very familiar with the UCLA programs. If you love SFV then holy cow batman rank it first.

Plenty of applicants would kill to attend one of the main 3 UCLA programs (SFV, Harbor, NPI).

 

[Abby_Normal]

I might as well join the fun with two ranking dilemmas of my own...

1. Longwood vs. Brown
I liked both programs a lot. I think I liked Longwood a little better; my main reservations are affordability of Boston and manageability of the giant many-tentacled Harvard/Partners system (basically, is it easy to get lost in the bureaucracy? Longwood is one of four Harvard-affiliated psychiatry residencies; does this lead to competition over resources?).

2. BU vs. Dartmouth
Fairly evaluating BU/Boston Medical Center has been somewhat difficult for me because my interview day impression was skewed by outside factors (last interview of a busy week, hotel turned out to suck, got lost in really bad traffic at once point, that sort of thing). It has all the components I'm looking for (academic, strong CL service, strong psychotherapy training) but it didn't totally "click." My interview impression of Dartmouth was more positive but I wasn't as sure about the psychotherapy training. Also, not sure how I felt about non-nightfloat system.

 

[liquidshadow22]

this is how i would personally rank those: 1) Longwood over Brown 2) Dartmouth over BU. I'm going strictly based on prestige/research opportunities.

I might as well join the fun with two ranking dilemmas of my own...

1. Longwood vs. Brown
I liked both programs a lot. I think I liked Longwood a little better; my main reservations are affordability of Boston and manageability of the giant many-tentacled Harvard/Partners system (basically, is it easy to get lost in the bureaucracy? Longwood is one of four Harvard-affiliated psychiatry residencies; does this lead to competition over resources?).

2. BU vs. Dartmouth
Fairly evaluating BU/Boston Medical Center has been somewhat difficult for me because my interview day impression was skewed by outside factors (last interview of a busy week, hotel turned out to suck, got lost in really bad traffic at once point, that sort of thing). It has all the components I'm looking for (academic, strong CL service, strong psychotherapy training) but it didn't totally "click." My interview impression of Dartmouth was more positive but I wasn't as sure about the psychotherapy training. Also, not sure how I felt about non-nightfloat system.

i think longwood >dartmouth=brown>BU

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I don't know about you OPD, but anyone can call me hot anytime they want...anyone....anyone...

It's been a long time since anyone did...

 

[VMSmith]

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that from a clinical perspective, residents will not spend time at Mt Sinai Hospital until the fourth year, but from what I understood from the interview. It seems the access to research faculty will be available to residents from all campuses. If that's the case, then I should get a great research experience there if I want it?

Beth Israel has a reputation in NYC as being primarily a good clinical training program. Though they now have the Mt Sinai name attached to it, I would be very surprised if that's changed very much, and from what I understand they keep the residents pretty busy.

Beth Israel is also physically kind of far from Sinai as well, prob a 45 minute commute or so on one of the most crowded train lines in the city. There are just a lot of practical things you'd need to overcome to get access to research resources at Sinai.

 

[wannabie]

Sounds like you're still dealing with a fair amount of ambivalence about your top choices, but all that matters is whether you're doing it right for you.
Sounds like you may have met more questionable characters than role models on the trail though...or maybe that's just selective reporting. Still, it might not be exceptionally professional to be commenting on the "hotness" of a PD.

I don't trust in my "gut" because I'm becoming increasingly aware of the myriad of biases I have. I'm lucky in that I'd be really happy at all of my top choices!

I met a whole bunch of questionable characters. I interviewed at places that offered pre-matches that were full of them, but I didn't even mention them here. I'd say I met: 40% role models, 40% neutral, and 20% "questionable characters". Most of the characters were at one program known for violations, terrible culture, and other kooky nonsense.

I only mentioned the physical looks of that program director to better caricature her: all applicants wanted to impress this young attractive woman who spent more time on her phone than making eye contact or conversing. I'm desensitized to this sort of thing, but I had to comfort a few applicants who became paralyzed with anxiety before and after their visit with her. I meant to make it funny, but failed.

Oh and with a little help from splik, here's my certified rank list:
1. HCMC
2. Louisville
3. University of Tennessee
4. Providence (Spokane)
5. Howard
6. Rosalind
7. St. Elizabeth

Thanks for everyone's help and input! I would have been totally lost without y'all!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

My compliments on your bold forthrightness.
May the odds be in your favor!

 

[barzan]

Good luck @wannabie

 

[BZEE]

Thanks for your comments. Can anyone comment on workload and service requirements at UTSW or Michigan? I got a great vibe at UTSW, but I am concerned about their workload. And only a few residents came to dinner and lunch. Lifestyle balance is important to me. Also can anyone comment on the strength of U of Wisconsin's program? UT Austin anyone?

 

[notdeadyet]

I don't trust in my "gut" because I'm becoming increasingly aware of the myriad of biases I have.

One tip: the point isn't to remove biases, it's to distinguish between good biases and bad ones.

I was biased towards culture-focused and open minded programs. I don't consider this a bad bias. So I kept it.

I was also biased towards big name programs. On analysis, I realized that this WAS a bad bias, because a "big name" had no meaning. What I really wanted was a program that would prepare me well for an academic career, and plenty of big name programs won't do that well and many less known programs will do that well. I ignored this bias and instead catered to what I REALLY wanted, which was a program that would prepare me for academia.

I need to be near a big body of water to be happy. This is a weird bias that most folks won't need to incorporate into their decision process. But it was important to me. So I decided this was a good bias. And so on.

I am a VERY big proponent of trusting your gut. It's much more helpful than the advice of strangers with different priorities. But you can hone that process with getting as much information as you can and a little introspection to decide which biases are helpful and which pull you away from what you're really looking for.


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[Opira]

here's my certified rank list:
1. HCMC
2. Louisville
3. University of Tennessee
4. Providence (Spokane)
5. Howard
6. Rosalind
7. St. Elizabeth

I'm not sure what your rationale for ranking HCMC (a community-based program) over University of Louisville and University of Tennessee are, but I've worked with a junior attending who had recently graduated from HCMC, and he was really, really bad - at everything from patient interactions to ethics to management. I have no idea what sort of a training you get at Hennepin County and if he was some sort of an extreme sample, but it was quite worrying regardless. Have you thought about doing a second look before the ROL deadline?

 

[wannabie]

One tip: the point isn't to remove biases, it's to distinguish between good biases and bad ones.

I was biased towards culture-focused and open minded programs. I don't consider this a bad bias. So I kept it.

I was also biased towards big name programs. On analysis, I realized that this WAS a bad bias, because a "big name" had no meaning. What I really wanted was a program that would prepare me well for an academic career, and plenty of big name programs won't do that well and many less known programs will do that well. I ignored this bias and instead catered to what I REALLY wanted, which was a program that would prepare me for academia.

I need to be near a big body of water to be happy. This is a weird bias that most folks won't need to incorporate into their decision process. But it was important to me. So I decided this was a good bias. And so on.

I am a VERY big proponent of trusting your gut. It's much more helpful than the advice of strangers with different priorities. But you can hone that process with getting as much information as you can and a little introspection to decide which biases are helpful and which pull you away from what you're really looking for.


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It never occurred to me that biases could be good. I actually share a few of your biases. I too appreciate culture focused programs and overall, my list reflects that as the bottom three are miserable places to be and work and are downright dangerous in a bunch of regards. I actually am biased towards being near a big body of water too. I went to school in the Caribbean and would often spend my evenings walking on the shore watching the sunset dip over the horizon. I'm disappointed I didn't get to fulfill that opportunity but I will spend most of my vacation time finding water.

One thing I focus on that I don't think many people care about is the other applicants who interview with me. I ask myself: 'if these people were part of my class, could I work with them and be happy? Are they bright and motivated?'. I do everything I can to get to know them. It's a small sample size of course, but it's a reasonable extrapolation during resident meet and greet dinners. I made a habit of hanging out with the other applicants at most of these places and I keep in touch with them.

Anyway, thanks for that insight! You just blew my mind.

I'm not sure what your rationale for ranking HCMC (a community-based program) over University of Louisville and University of Tennessee are, but I've worked with a junior attending who had recently graduated from HCMC, and he was really, really bad - at everything from patient interactions to ethics to management. I have no idea what sort of a training you get at Hennepin County and if he was some sort of an extreme sample, but it was quite worrying regardless. Have you thought about doing a second look before the ROL deadline?

Not all university programs are equal and I'm spooked by university programs that can't retain their own medical students.

I tried setting up a second look at HCMC two weeks ago for this very reason, but they do not conduct or allow for them. I've done most of my schooling in the hinterlands of medicine and I find that I do not understand what an academic medicine program entails. I just don't know what it means. I imagine it entails doing lots of research (which doesn't appeal to me) and teaching (which does), but that's really all that comes to mind.

Are there some obvious advantages to university programs that I'm not recognizing?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

... I actually am biased towards being near a big body of water too. ... I'm disappointed I didn't get to fulfill that opportunity but I will spend most of my vacation time finding water.

Hey--your top three are all on really big rivers! 😀

Not all university programs are equal and I'm spooked by university programs that can't retain their own medical students.

I tried setting up a second look at HCMC two weeks ago for this very reason, but they do not conduct or allow for them. I've done most of my schooling in the hinterlands of medicine and I find that I do not understand what an academic medicine program entails. I just don't know what it means. I imagine it entails doing lots of research (which doesn't appeal to me) and teaching (which does), but that's really all that comes to mind.

Are there some obvious advantages to university programs that I'm not recognizing?

It's hugely a case of different strokes for different folks. Some medical students are simply not going to be comfortable if their training doesn't come with a "University of ---" attached. In my experience, university departments can be hugely dysfunctional though, too, just as you will find community programs that are essentially sweatshops vs those which might be smaller, more nurturing, apprenticeship-like places. [edit--there have been a bunch of previous threads on the university vs community issue on this forum...just search on 'community' in titles, and limit to this forum.]

Again, you need to do what's right for you.

(Also, based on my conversations with other PDs, many programs deflect second looks because they get deluged with requests for them which are really just applicants feeling that they NEED to do it "show interest" or to build a ranking advantage that doesn't exist. It's only "a little extra work" to set up a second look schedule for one applicant...but multiply that times everyone that they interviewed, and well, coordinators and chief residents might start rebelling... And honestly, we know that interviewing is exhausting and expensive for you guys, too--and we don't want to add to that unnecessarily. )

 

[notdeadyet]

One thing I focus on that I don't think many people care about is the other applicants who interview with me. I ask myself: 'if these people were part of my class, could I work with them and be happy? Are they bright and motivated?'. I do everything I can to get to know them. It's a small sample size of course, but it's a reasonable extrapolation during resident meet and greet dinners.

I'd take care with this. From sitting on the interviewer end, I can tell you that there interview days in which we have research-heavy groups, others are hypersocial groups, others are quiet groups, etc. You hit the nail on the head with your small n comment. The personality of folks that interview on a particular day won't have much to do with the class that matches. I would be careful not to read too much into it.

 

[vivezvotrevie]

Hello! I rarely post except on the interview invite thread, but I'm struggling more with my rank list than I expected, so I thought a little help might be nice. Location is not very important to me, as most of my interviews were in the midwest, and the weather, while slightly variable, is mostly the same.

Things that are important to me: 4th year elective time vs. lots of required acting attending rotations; opportunities to work in college student health (possibly a career goal of mine); opportunity to do some psychoanalytic training during my 4th year (if not before); internal moonlighting availability; LGBT patient population + other cultural diversity; strong sense of resident comeraderie; long term psychodynamic patients (program that values psychodynamics).

At this point, I think my top two are U of Minnesota and Case Western Reserve. Both have most of the things I want, with student health services and psychoanalysis available--CWRU seems to allow you to do a bit more with each of these. MPLS is an amazing city and bit closer to home--also there is good public transit to take you to fewer training sites. As far as reputation goes, I'm not really sure how they are regarded in comparison to one another.

Here are #3-#8, possibly in order, but it's hard to rank them because they all are missing at least one of my major criteria:
-Cleveland Clinic --> no college mental health; +++PRIDE clinic
-U of Kentucky --> drive 1.5 hours to Cinci for analysis training; low on moonlighting opportunities; +++ lots of student health
-Loyola --> no college mental health; no official analysis connection (+++although they give all 4th year as elective and there are institutes in chicago that I could train at during that time); no moonlighting (residents go to milwaukee?)
-SLU --> not much LGBT population per the residents, only 4 months elective 4th year, +++strong connection to psychoanalytic institute; overall didn't feel good about it while i was there (didn't click with anyone)
-U of Iowa--> seems maybe too biological for me; no psychoanalytic institute anywhere nearby; +++all 4th year elective;
- Detroit Medical Center/WSU --> no college mental health; +++good relationship with Ann Arbor psychoanalytic institute

Lowest on the list: Western Michigan and UIC-Peoria. Bad vibes at WMich and worried about the newness of Peoria. Neither city is desirable, neither have psychoanalysis, neither have college mental health.

To recap:
1 & 2 = UMN or CWRU
3 = CCF
4 = UK
5= Loyola
6 = SLU
7 = U of Iowa
8 = DMC/WSU
9 = WMIch
10 = UIC- Peoria

I would really appreciate anyone's thoughts/impressions. Thanks!

 

[hoodwinkd]

Hello! I rarely post except on the interview invite thread, but I'm struggling more with my rank list than I expected, so I thought a little help might be nice. Location is not very important to me, as most of my interviews were in the midwest, and the weather, while slightly variable, is mostly the same.

Things that are important to me: 4th year elective time vs. lots of required acting attending rotations; opportunities to work in college student health (possibly a career goal of mine); opportunity to do some psychoanalytic training during my 4th year (if not before); internal moonlighting availability; LGBT patient population + other cultural diversity; strong sense of resident comeraderie; long term psychodynamic patients (program that values psychodynamics).

At this point, I think my top two are U of Minnesota and Case Western Reserve. Both have most of the things I want, with student health services and psychoanalysis available--CWRU seems to allow you to do a bit more with each of these. MPLS is an amazing city and bit closer to home--also there is good public transit to take you to fewer training sites. As far as reputation goes, I'm not really sure how they are regarded in comparison to one another.

Here are #3-#8, possibly in order, but it's hard to rank them because they all are missing at least one of my major criteria:
-Cleveland Clinic --> no college mental health; +++PRIDE clinic
-U of Kentucky --> drive 1.5 hours to Cinci for analysis training; low on moonlighting opportunities; +++ lots of student health
-Loyola --> no college mental health; no official analysis connection (+++although they give all 4th year as elective and there are institutes in chicago that I could train at during that time); no moonlighting (residents go to milwaukee?)
-SLU --> not much LGBT population per the residents, only 4 months elective 4th year, +++strong connection to psychoanalytic institute; overall didn't feel good about it while i was there (didn't click with anyone)
-U of Iowa--> seems maybe too biological for me; no psychoanalytic institute anywhere nearby; +++all 4th year elective;
- Detroit Medical Center/WSU --> no college mental health; +++good relationship with Ann Arbor psychoanalytic institute

Lowest on the list: Western Michigan and UIC-Peoria. Bad vibes at WMich and worried about the newness of Peoria. Neither city is desirable, neither have psychoanalysis, neither have college mental health.

To recap:
1 & 2 = UMN or CWRU
3 = CCF
4 = UK
5= Loyola
6 = SLU
7 = U of Iowa
8 = DMC/WSU
9 = WMIch
10 = UIC- Peoria

I would really appreciate anyone's thoughts/impressions. Thanks!

since CWRU and CCF often overlap electives, i would check if you have access to CRWU college mental health clinic as a resident at CCF. At WesternMich you will def be exposed to that population given the multiple colleges locally

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Hello! I rarely post except on the interview invite thread, but I'm struggling more with my rank list than I expected, so I thought a little help might be nice. Location is not very important to me, as most of my interviews were in the midwest, and the weather, while slightly variable, is mostly the same.

Can't speak for much on that list, but Minneapolis would be one of the most LGBT-friendly locations in the Midwest--certainly for major cities. Iowa City would be, too, but it's unfortunately no one's definition of a major city.

 

[myPsychAlt]

There's certainly moonlighting in Chicago, though it's not connected directly to any of the city programs.

 

[psychiatry4me]

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[Rockpaperscis]

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[Yoni Aaron]

Hi. I'm an IMG applying to psych. I would like any opinions on these 4 programs for the match.

NYMC Weschester Medical Center
SUNY Downstate
Rutgers NJMS (Newark)
Maimonides Medical Center

 

[Soggun]

Hi, would appreciate any advice. I'm looking to be in an urban setting. I am interested primarily in excellent clinical training, but think I want to be part of a large academic center (though I do not want to necessarily do research). I definitely want to be around happy, well-supported (by faculty) residents and not in a malignant department. Thank you for your advice!

Cornell
NYU
Mt. Sinai
Einstein
Longwood
Yale
Pittsburgh
U Maryland
U Colorado
U Washington
UC San Diego
UCLA-SFV
U Southern California
UC Irvine

I was looking for similar things (top priorities were definitely clinical training that would leave me feeling prepared at the end of residency and getting training in his a well-supported environment in which residents seemed happy). My caveat in my advice is that of your list I only interviewed at NYU, Mt. Sinai, Einstein, Longwood, Colorado, and Washington.

Granted I am both partial to Longwood after having been here for 4 years and going on information from several years ago, but Longwood, NYU, and Mt. Sinai were 3 of my top 4 (the other being Brown). For me, Longwood and NYU seemed in particular to be the type of clinical experiences that I was looking for and, now as I'm nearing completion of residency, I think Longwood has certainly lived up to my expectations.

 

[NickNaylor]

Hi, would appreciate any advice. I'm looking to be in an urban setting. I am interested primarily in excellent clinical training, but think I want to be part of a large academic center (though I do not want to necessarily do research). I definitely want to be around happy, well-supported (by faculty) residents and not in a malignant department. Thank you for your advice!

Cornell
NYU
Mt. Sinai
Einstein
Longwood
Yale
Pittsburgh
U Maryland
U Colorado
U Washington
UC San Diego
UCLA-SFV
U Southern California
UC Irvine

I'm not sure that Colorado would fit your urban setting desire. True, Denver is a "real city," but it's no NYC, Boston, LA, etc. etc.. I personally loved the city, but I also specifically avoided the big cities and didn't apply to any programs in them. I was really impressed with Colorado and it seems to be a very livable city. It seemed like a great program with plenty of support, and the facilities (and entire region) are just beautiful.

 

[myPsychAlt]

I'm not sure that Colorado would fit your urban setting desire. True, Denver is a "real city," but it's no NYC, Boston, LA, etc. etc.. I personally loved the city, but I also specifically avoided the big cities and didn't apply to any programs in them. I was really impressed with Colorado and it seems to be a very livable city. It seemed like a great program with plenty of support, and the facilities (and entire region) are just beautiful.

Depends on what one is looking for when it comes to an urban setting. The trendier parts of Denver look pretty similar to the trendier parts of Chicago (Logan Square, etc). Though if you're looking for a River North type setup, you're probably out of luck....

 

[notdeadyet]

Appreciate any insight. Looking to have strong training in Psychotherapy and to follow residency with Child Psychiatry. I am also very interested in academics, particularly more clinical and community based research. Want a great program director and mentors, happy residents, and do not mind working hard. Just want excellent training in a setting that is more patient centered and not as much pushing psychopharm or being too biological.

In no particular order, interviewed at

Cornell
Univ of Pennsylvania
Stanford
Univ of Pittsburgh / WPIC
UTSW
UCLA
Harbor-UCLA
Cal Pacific
UCLA- SFV
USC
UC San Diego
Univ of Colorado

Hey psychiatry4me. Congratulations on a very impressive interview trail.

First off, I can only speak with any kind of intel on the California programs. Here are my thoughts in terms of quality for the domains of what you're looking for.

psychotherapy: UCLA NPI is going to be the strongest of the bunch in terms of quality and number of modalities. Stanford has traditionally had a poor reputation here, but they've gotten much better.
child: Stanford has the best child program on the list but UCLA-NPI is very good. UCLA-SFV would be low on my list on this domain.
clinical: you'll get good clinical training at all of them. as for the bio emphasis, you sometimes hear this of UCSD, but it's not well-deserved in a long time. For clinical training, there are pros and cons of each of the programs. If you are interested in serving more middle-class/launch-to-private-practice >>> dealing with underserved, your best bets are CPMC, UCLA, and Stanford all come to mind. If you prefer the county/community-oriented environment >>> cash private practice, UCLA-Harbor and USC would be the spots. If you really like VA psychiatry, UCLA-SFV and UCSD both are heavy there.
Research: depends on what you want to do, but UCLA-NPI and Stanford are both tops for this. CPMC would probably be at the bottom.

Hope this helps...

 

[nilesMD]

Long-time lurker and first time poster 🙄 Would appreciate any thoughts/feedback on ranking the following programs. Location is not necessarily a huge deciding factor for me and would like to eventually attain an academic career as a clinician-scientist. Very interested in basic science within the field but also open to the possibility of more translational projects as well. Following residency, would ultimately like to attain a T-32 or K award, but still spend some clinical time in an inpatient setting. Concerning my clinical interests, I'm interested in both child and adult psychiatry, but am particularly drawn to chronic mood and psychotic disorders.

UCSF
Colorado
Yale
Emory
Harvard-Longwood
Johns Hopkins
WashU
UNC
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
MUSC
Vanderbilt
UVA

 

[trustmeimlying]

So I'd love some advice about the top 2/3 of my rank list...I have interests in neuropsychiatry and neuromodulation (fMRI research, TMS, ECT (and DBS but very few places have this, so not a necessity)), but I think I will end up trying for a child fellowship, though that may admittedly change as well...so knowing all that, how would others rank these places? Location isn't the biggest factor for me, but I've admittedly kept a few places towards the top simply because they are in great cities...

MC Wisconsin, Case Western, MUSC, Ohio State, UF, Loyola, Tufts, UVA

Some places have great reputations within psychiatry, but maybe not so much with the general public (I'm still torn between academics and private practice, so I'm not sure how much reputation amongst the public matters)

Thanks for any advice!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Long-time lurker and first time poster 🙄 Would appreciate any thoughts/feedback on ranking the following programs. Location is not necessarily a huge deciding factor for me and would like to eventually attain an academic career as a clinician-scientist. Very interested in basic science within the field but also open to the possibility of more translational projects as well. Following residency, would ultimately like to attain a T-32 or K award, but still spend some clinical time in an inpatient setting. Concerning my clinical interests, I'm interested in both child and adult psychiatry, but am particularly drawn to chronic mood and psychotic disorders.

UCSF
Colorado
Yale
Emory
Harvard-Longwood
Johns Hopkins
WashU
UNC
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
MUSC
Vanderbilt
UVA

These are all decent to excellent academic programs, but the ones in bold are the best bets for opportunities in basic research and mentorship toward independent funding.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

MC Wisconsin, Case Western, MUSC, Ohio State, UF, Loyola, Tufts, UVA

All fine programs.

Some places have great reputations within psychiatry, but maybe not so much with the general public (I'm still torn between academics and private practice, so I'm not sure how much reputation amongst the public matters)

Outside of Manhattan and Boston, it doesn't.
Seriously. No one cares.
And if they pretend to care, they probably (mis)judge the reputation of your program based on that of the corresponding undergraduate institution and its football or men's basketball program. 🙄
(So you'd better pick OSU, I guess! 😀)

 

[SmallBird]

Long-time lurker and first time poster 🙄 Would appreciate any thoughts/feedback on ranking the following programs. Location is not necessarily a huge deciding factor for me and would like to eventually attain an academic career as a clinician-scientist. Very interested in basic science within the field but also open to the possibility of more translational projects as well. Following residency, would ultimately like to attain a T-32 or K award, but still spend some clinical time in an inpatient setting. Concerning my clinical interests, I'm interested in both child and adult psychiatry, but am particularly drawn to chronic mood and psychotic disorders.

UCSF
Colorado
Yale
Emory
Harvard-Longwood
Johns Hopkins
WashU
UNC
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
MUSC
Vanderbilt
UVA

Given your well-defined goal, I would strongly consider Yale, as it is just an excellent place to start that type of career. In addition to having the most NIH funding for a psychiatry program in 2014, there are many internal funding opportunities for faculty and residents, including an abundance of grants to provide people with protected time, and other endowments like the Detre Fellowship (3 or 4 awards of $30 000 for resident research). I think I will have published about 18 papers during my residency at Yale and I have excellent mentorship, protected time, and financial support to thank for that.