Official 2015 Rank Order List and "Help me rank" thread

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I actually dont think the top neuro programs are all that more competitive than the top psych programs. I actually think top psych> top neuro. (there are way more applicants for psych, and realistically only 150 applicants that are really being considered by the top 10 programs in the country).

Regardless, you should rank based on which specialty you would rather do for 4 years.

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Hello everyone!

I am having trouble with my rank list. Any thoughts on the following programs would be really appreciated. I am very interested in research and am considering a career in academia. Here goes...

1. Washington University
2. UT Southwestern
3. Vanderbilt
4. Emory
5. MUSC
6. Mayo
7. University of Maryland
8. UVA
9. CCF
10. Georgetown
11. St Luke/ Roosevelt Mt. Sinai
12. Harvard South Shore

Any feedback would be great! Thanks!

In interviewed at several of the places on your list and will give my quick impressions of each (in the order you have listed)

1. WashU- probably the most established of all the departments there. Pioneer of "biological psychiatry" which in the 50s-70s meant a neo-Kraeplinean rebellion against analysis dominated psychiatry but is now turning towards teaching psychopathology in terms of clinical neuroscience. Very tradition oriented department, hire most of their own. Have some very famous faculty members- Robert Cloninger. The chair, Charles Zorumski, is also in the National Academy/IOM. One of the first department to champion research in all aspects of psychiatry- from basic synaptic biology to clinical research to epidemiology (Wash U is known for this). Definitely a great place to begin an academic career. Clinical training is stellar; Barnes Jewish is one of the world's premier medical centers
2. UTSW- Historically strong department, former chair was Eric Nestler who is now chair of Neuroscience at Sinai. Have some huge names on faculty (Carol Tamminga, current chair and Carol North, one of the foremost PTSD researchers in the world). Impressive basic science opportunities. Clinical training is top notch- UTSW, parkland, the new parkland, children's hospital, VA, etc etc etc. PD is an analyst, made for a fun interview.
3. Vanderbilt- On the rise... and rising fast. Stephan Heckers (well known in schizophrenia research) came from MGH in 2006 and took over the department, completely revamping it. He brought a lot of bright, young faculty from Harvard (MGH), Columbia, etc. Very invested in producing outstanding clinicians. Campus is gorgeous and convenient- everything is within walking distance. Psych hospital is on the grounds of the main hospital, with Children's and VA in close proximity. Nashville is amazing. Dr. Heckers has a mission to produce academicians.
4. Emory- traditionally strong department. People think it took a hit after the Nemeroff fiasco in ?2008 but it's still one of the strongest programs in the South. Very similar to UTSW- Grady, Emory hospital, VA. Chair is Mark Rappaport who is amazing. Helen Mayberg is one of the most famous faculty members and world renowned in the worlds of psychiatry, neurology, and neuroscience.
5. MUSC- Traditionally strong department. Big names like Raymond Anton, Kathleen Brady, and Mark George. Lots of NIH/NIMH funding. Have dedicated clinician scholars track. Psych dept has a strong presence within the medical center. Very strong clinical training.
 
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Loyola
LSU

Didn't apply much into Neuro but thinking it's way more competitive than Psyc and better income (though not issue)

Psych and Neuro are non-competitive specialties.

There's no comparison in terms of income. Neurologists have to bill insurance companies. Psychiatrists can, but don't have to depending on your situation (which you can create for yourself). That alone makes Psych much more desirable from a red-tape-daily-pulling-hair-out-life-sucks-because-insurance-pays-me-60%-of-what-i-charge-if-they-decide-to-pay-me-anything standpoint that most physicians face. Yes, there are more procedures neurologists can charge for.

Remember, over 70% of psychiatrists work in outpatient settings. I bet over 70% of neurologists work for hospitals or groups hired by hospitals. When you work for hospitals/groups, you have less authority over billing and charge coding.

Having less authority over billing and charge coding is one of the top 4 complaints by doctors.
 
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So after some thought, I've gone from no idea how to rank my top 7 to this rudimentary list...thoughts/criticisms? (And thanks to OPD for easing my mind about perceived "prestige")

Hoping to enter child fellowship somewhere (trying to consider social life too...but I probably shouldn't pick Tufts/Loyola just for the dating scene)

1. MC Wisconsin
2. Ohio State University
3. Medical University South Carolina
4. University of Virginia
5. Case Western/University Hospitals
6. Loyola
7. Tufts
 
I actually dont think the top neuro programs are all that more competitive than the top psych programs. I actually think top psych> top neuro. (there are way more applicants for psych, and realistically only 150 applicants that are really being considered by the top 10 programs in the country).

Regardless, you should rank based on which specialty you would rather do for 4 years.

I love both specialities in every aspect. Had someone assigned me either, I would be happy. You might be right in terms of top programs, but in general Neuro is more competitive than Psyc and IM.
 
Psych and Neuro are non-competitive specialties.

There's no comparison in terms of income. Neurologists have to bill insurance companies. Psychiatrists can, but don't have to depending on your situation (which you can create for yourself). That alone makes Psych much more desirable from a red-tape-daily-pulling-hair-out-life-sucks-because-insurance-pays-me-60%-of-what-i-charge-if-they-decide-to-pay-me-anything standpoint that most physicians face. Yes, there are more procedures neurologists can charge for.

Remember, over 70% of psychiatrists work in outpatient settings. I bet over 70% of neurologists work for hospitals or groups hired by hospitals. When you work for hospitals/groups, you have less authority over billing and charge coding.

Having less authority over billing and charge coding is one of the top 4 complaints by doctors.

Thanks Leo Aquarius: seems you are a resident yourself in Psyc. I do agree with billing aspect as Psyc has to do less with insurance companies and coding. But I will still say Neuro is more competitive than Psyc and IM (general consensus).

I understand psychiatrists are making tons of money these days especially in the Mid-South / South because of huge shortage.

But with a Neuro fellowship (vascular = neuro-Onc > Epilepsy, Pain), reimbursement is much higher than psychiatry bc of procedures and expertise.
 
Hello everyone!

I am having trouble with my rank list. Any thoughts on the following programs would be really appreciated. I am very interested in research and am considering a career in academia. Here goes...

1. Washington University
2. UT Southwestern
3. Vanderbilt
4. Emory
5. MUSC
6. Mayo
7. University of Maryland
8. UVA
9. CCF
10. Georgetown
11. St Luke/ Roosevelt Mt. Sinai
12. Harvard South Shore

Any feedback would be great! Thanks!

Let me preface the following by saying that I'm biased for obvious reasons.

As I've said on this forum many times in the past, I am extremely happy with my decision to come to WashU. The only regret I have about my decision-making process is that I spent too much time/effort debating - I should have just ranked WashU #1 without a second thought (Mayo and CCF were also high on my list, and HSS and St. Luke's were lower down, but were high on the list I had in my mind before I went on the interview trail).
One major reason is because I think that the program provides unparalleled opportunities in the realm of research/academia, while also giving you excellent clinical training that is based heavily on your ability to use science in situations where I've seen many others rely on less scientific means.
Regarding academia - I think that you'll be hard-pressed to find another program that will make you as highly likely to get a faculty position at a top-10 med school straight out of residency. WashU really believes in its own product, so they actively recruit faculty members from our residency class. As long as you're not a bad resident, you'll have the opportunity to stay on as faculty, and you'll likely be able to get competing offers from other places with comparable reputations. In addition to that, the department has lots of research funding (in the form of T-grants) that's just waiting for junior faculty members to come and take it - at other places, you'd usually have to do a fellowship to get a T-grant. Also, if you do research as a resident, we have lots of faculty members with spare funding sitting around for residents to start up projects. And as somebody already said, there is a diverse array of leading researchers in everything from neuromodulation to temperament/character-based psychotherapy to electrophysiology to neurosteroids to molecular neuroscience. And we have the best neuroimaging resources, which will be important going forward (see: Human Connectome Project), which will be a growing necessity for novel research (even if your project doesn't directly involve neuroimaging) in light of the new push to demonstrate mechanisms for new ideas - for instance, I'm involved in a project studying a novel NMDA-related treatment for MDD, and we're just throwing in a neuroimaging component because we can and should. Our department chair also strongly believes that electrophysiology will have real clinical applications during our careers, and there was a paper in Brain Stimulation this month that really supports that belief.
Regarding clinical psychiatry - lots of programs give you great clinical training, but I think that the "medical model" approach that we use is much more than fluff. I've frequently encountered patients treated by non-WashU-trained psychiatrists (including patients who were treated by psychiatrists from well-reputed programs) who have been trying to implement a treatment regimen that's contrary to what the science says, and leads to the patient being undertreated for a while. I don't think this is due to a lack of training quality at those other programs, but rather because few places give you as much (supervised) autonomy as this program does, so people often come out of training with important blind spots. Most of our attendings will encourage you to try things that you're not yet comfortable with, and will encourage you to implement novel ideas as long as you're not suggesting something that might hurt the patient. You get a LOT of didactics to ensure that you know the science behind your clinical decisions, and plenty more to make sure that your clinical decisions aren't overly influenced by science to the point of impracticality. Your second year is full of a myriad of subspecialty rotations, after which you'll be quite competent at managing every one of those subspecialties.

Of course, like I said, I'm biased. I obviously think that we have the best training, and others probably think that they have the best training. But if I had a family member who was looking for a psychiatrist, I would actively insist that they see a WashU-trained person over anybody else.

Anyway, please feel free to ask me more questions. I don't want to say anything negative about the other programs on your list - I'm sure they'll all give you good training. But I can say with 100% certainty that I have never had even a fleeting second thought about my decision to come here.

By the way, St. Louis is an awesome city to be a resident. The hospital is in my favorite part of town, and because it's an inexpensive city, I was able to buy a 3-bedroom townhouse on an intern's salary. And because I'm in my favorite part of town (the area where young professionals like to hang out on the weekends), we have vibrant social lives and we hang out with each other a lot. The hospital has hundreds of residents (at least 500 I think, maybe even 1000), and most of us live in the same ZIP code, so I run into people all the time when I'm out and about. My non-medical friends think I'm rich because $50something K is a pretty good salary in St. Louis. One of our junior faculty members had a more lucrative job offer from Northwestern right out of residency, and he decided to stay here even though he's from Chicago.
 
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Thanks Leo Aquarius: seems you are a resident yourself in Psyc. I do agree with billing aspect as Psyc has to do less with insurance companies and coding. But I will still say Neuro is more competitive than Psyc and IM (general consensus).

I understand psychiatrists are making tons of money these days especially in the Mid-South / South because of huge shortage.

But with a Neuro fellowship (vascular = neuro-Onc > Epilepsy, Pain), reimbursement is much higher than psychiatry bc of procedures and expertise.

I do anticipate Psych having a well-paying procedure or two in their arsenal in the next 5 years or so (beyond ECT).
 
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So after some thought, I've gone from no idea how to rank my top 7 to this rudimentary list...thoughts/criticisms? (And thanks to OPD for easing my mind about perceived "prestige")

Hoping to enter child fellowship somewhere (trying to consider social life too...but I probably shouldn't pick Tufts/Loyola just for the dating scene)

1. MC Wisconsin
2. Ohio State University
3. Medical University South Carolina
4. University of Virginia
5. Case Western/University Hospitals
6. Loyola
7. Tufts

I would rank MUSC in the top 2 (that is, definitely over OSU, and probably over MCW, depending on what you're looking for), but I'm sure you had your reasons for ranking it #3. Otherwise, your list looks very good to me.
 
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In interviewed at several of the places on your list and will give my quick impressions of each (in the order you have listed)

1. WashU- probably the most established of all the departments there. Pioneer of "biological psychiatry" which in the 50s-70s meant a neo-Kraeplinean rebellion against analysis dominated psychiatry but is now turning towards teaching psychopathology in terms of clinical neuroscience. Very tradition oriented department, hire most of their own. Have some very famous faculty members- Robert Cloninger. The chair, Charles Zorumski, is also in the National Academy/IOM. One of the first department to champion research in all aspects of psychiatry- from basic synaptic biology to clinical research to epidemiology (Wash U is known for this). Definitely a great place to begin an academic career. Clinical training is stellar; Barnes Jewish is one of the world's premier medical centers
2. UTSW- Historically strong department, former chair was Eric Nestler who is now chair of Neuroscience at Sinai. Have some huge names on faculty (Carol Tamminga, current chair and Carol North, one of the foremost PTSD researchers in the world). Impressive basic science opportunities. Clinical training is top notch- UTSW, parkland, the new parkland, children's hospital, VA, etc etc etc. PD is an analyst, made for a fun interview.
3. Vanderbilt- On the rise... and rising fast. Stephan Heckers (well known in schizophrenia research) came from MGH in 2006 and took over the department, completely revamping it. He brought a lot of bright, young faculty from Harvard (MGH), Columbia, etc. Very invested in producing outstanding clinicians. Campus is gorgeous and convenient- everything is within walking distance. Psych hospital is on the grounds of the main hospital, with Children's and VA in close proximity. Nashville is amazing. Dr. Heckers has a mission to produce academicians.
4. Emory- traditionally strong department. People think it took a hit after the Nemeroff fiasco in ?2008 but it's still one of the strongest programs in the South. Very similar to UTSW- Grady, Emory hospital, VA. Chair is Mark Rappaport who is amazing. Helen Mayberg is one of the most famous faculty members and world renowned in the worlds of psychiatry, neurology, and neuroscience.
5. MUSC- Traditionally strong department. Big names like Raymond Anton, Kathleen Brady, and Mark George. Lots of NIH/NIMH funding. Have dedicated clinician scholars track. Psych dept has a strong presence within the medical center. Very strong clinical training.



Thank you so so much!
 
I do anticipate Psych having a well-paying procedure or two in their arsenal in the next 5 years or so (beyond ECT).

I hope this happens. Can you elaborate on what exactly you're referring to?
 
I actually dont think the top neuro programs are all that more competitive than the top psych programs. I actually think top psych> top neuro. (there are way more applicants for psych, and realistically only 150 applicants that are really being considered by the top 10 programs in the country).

Regardless, you should rank based on which specialty you would rather do for 4 years.

And life! Unless one is comfortable spending another four years doing a second residency!
 
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I’ve heard people say this for the last few decades. :rolleyes:

Yes I do not see any new short procedures in the near future. There all be more BST like TMS as alternates to ECat but there therapies are time consuming and less rewarding. Only other possibility will be more Depo formulations for antipsychotics and antdepressants.

Neuro vs Psyc: Neuro still had a much highly baseline reimbursement than Psyc. With most Neuro fellowships you easily make over 300-350K.

But yes the life style is way more easy in Psyc and they have more inner job satisfaction
 
I'd like to get your opinions on putting the following programs in order. My main goals are solid clinical training, great work/life balance, enjoyable outdoors activities nearby, and a collegial/enthusiastic work environment. I'd prefer a program with exceptional psychotherapy training options but within a balanced approach regarding biological treatments vs. psychotherapy. Not particularly research inclined, but not opposed to being involved in research if a topic comes along that interests me.
Here's my list (not in order):
UVA
Emory
UF Gainesville
Duke
UC Denver
UAB
Arkansas
Utah
New Mexico
 
If someone is going to do neuro I would just say be sure you get into the right program. I hear a lot of neuro programs can be absolutely soul crushing because they are generally on the smaller side and you have a lot of call to cover in addition to the obviously bad neuro ICU months.

I sense more buyers remorse from neuro residents than any other specialty except maybe general surgery
 
If someone is going to do neuro I would just say be sure you get into the right program. I hear a lot of neuro programs can be absolutely soul crushing because they are generally on the smaller side and you have a lot of call to cover in addition to the obviously bad neuro ICU months.

I sense more buyers remorse from neuro residents than any other specialty except maybe general surgery

Indeed that is true, neuro residency is one of the lethal ones...but down the road you have more fellowship options and can be much better financially. Personally, I wish someone could just choose for me as I equally love both
 
avg is about 300-350K for neuro-onc (one guy I know makes 800K), vascular is 300K+; these two are only ones of my interest

I know of psychiatrists in private practice (a few years in) who make that much easily, doing very light work. I have no idea how hard the job of a neuro-oncologist or a vascular neurologist is. Do you? And are those figures from a salaried 40-hour a week job?
 
I know of psychiatrists in private practice (a few years in) who make that much easily, doing very light work. I have no idea how hard the job of a neuro-oncologist or a vascular neurologist is. Do you? And are those figures from a salaried 40-hour a week job?

As far as I make 350-400K I am okay. Neuro is very rough and not light work or lifestyle. Though more prestigious.

Vascular job is way more harder than neuro-onc, as in vascular u have to administer tPA and be available 24/7 in hosp. Though figures are from a 60hr job at a prestigious cancer hospital.
 
how the hell do you make 800k in neuro-onc? Is that an academic or private job?
 
is it because of all the chemo that is prescribed?

Not exactly, with this person he is a well renowned researcher and hospital was in high demand for person like him. Normally u don't make this much with chemo.
 
Let me preface the following by saying that I'm biased for obvious reasons.

As I've said on this forum many times in the past, I am extremely happy with my decision to come to WashU. The only regret I have about my decision-making process is that I spent too much time/effort debating - I should have just ranked WashU #1 without a second thought (Mayo and CCF were also high on my list, and HSS and St. Luke's were lower down, but were high on the list I had in my mind before I went on the interview trail).
One major reason is because I think that the program provides unparalleled opportunities in the realm of research/academia, while also giving you excellent clinical training that is based heavily on your ability to use science in situations where I've seen many others rely on less scientific means.
Regarding academia - I think that you'll be hard-pressed to find another program that will make you as highly likely to get a faculty position at a top-10 med school straight out of residency. WashU really believes in its own product, so they actively recruit faculty members from our residency class. As long as you're not a bad resident, you'll have the opportunity to stay on as faculty, and you'll likely be able to get competing offers from other places with comparable reputations. In addition to that, the department has lots of research funding (in the form of T-grants) that's just waiting for junior faculty members to come and take it - at other places, you'd usually have to do a fellowship to get a T-grant. Also, if you do research as a resident, we have lots of faculty members with spare funding sitting around for residents to start up projects. And as somebody already said, there is a diverse array of leading researchers in everything from neuromodulation to temperament/character-based psychotherapy to electrophysiology to neurosteroids to molecular neuroscience. And we have the best neuroimaging resources, which will be important going forward (see: Human Connectome Project), which will be a growing necessity for novel research (even if your project doesn't directly involve neuroimaging) in light of the new push to demonstrate mechanisms for new ideas - for instance, I'm involved in a project studying a novel NMDA-related treatment for MDD, and we're just throwing in a neuroimaging component because we can and should. Our department chair also strongly believes that electrophysiology will have real clinical applications during our careers, and there was a paper in Brain Stimulation this month that really supports that belief.
Regarding clinical psychiatry - lots of programs give you great clinical training, but I think that the "medical model" approach that we use is much more than fluff. I've frequently encountered patients treated by non-WashU-trained psychiatrists (including patients who were treated by psychiatrists from well-reputed programs) who have been trying to implement a treatment regimen that's contrary to what the science says, and leads to the patient being undertreated for a while. I don't think this is due to a lack of training quality at those other programs, but rather because few places give you as much (supervised) autonomy as this program does, so people often come out of training with important blind spots. Most of our attendings will encourage you to try things that you're not yet comfortable with, and will encourage you to implement novel ideas as long as you're not suggesting something that might hurt the patient. You get a LOT of didactics to ensure that you know the science behind your clinical decisions, and plenty more to make sure that your clinical decisions aren't overly influenced by science to the point of impracticality. Your second year is full of a myriad of subspecialty rotations, after which you'll be quite competent at managing every one of those subspecialties.

Of course, like I said, I'm biased. I obviously think that we have the best training, and others probably think that they have the best training. But if I had a family member who was looking for a psychiatrist, I would actively insist that they see a WashU-trained person over anybody else.

Anyway, please feel free to ask me more questions. I don't want to say anything negative about the other programs on your list - I'm sure they'll all give you good training. But I can say with 100% certainty that I have never had even a fleeting second thought about my decision to come here.

By the way, St. Louis is an awesome city to be a resident. The hospital is in my favorite part of town, and because it's an inexpensive city, I was able to buy a 3-bedroom townhouse on an intern's salary. And because I'm in my favorite part of town (the area where young professionals like to hang out on the weekends), we have vibrant social lives and we hang out with each other a lot. The hospital has hundreds of residents (at least 500 I think, maybe even 1000), and most of us live in the same ZIP code, so I run into people all the time when I'm out and about. My non-medical friends think I'm rich because $50something K is a pretty good salary in St. Louis. One of our junior faculty members had a more lucrative job offer from Northwestern right out of residency, and he decided to stay here even though he's from Chicago.



Fantastic! thank you so so much!!
 
We have a family friend who is a neurologist. She didn't do a fellowship and regrets it greatly. She doesn't like neurology, she is bored, and wishes she had picked another field. So you can't paint this 300K exciting life neurologists live.... most aren't making 300K, and most aren't excited. Vascular neuro is a minority of neurologists.
 
One of my neurology attendings told us that recently they cut their big money-maker by something exorbitant, like 50% reimbursement. I think if my memory serves me correctly it was EMGs.
 
Not surprising. I was more bored on my neuro rotation than I was on several other snoozefest rotations. That complete neuro exam, man, over and over and over...and rounding for over 5 hours on fewer than 5 patients (not even kidding).
 
One of the best parts of being a doctor is being able to see your patients improve. I think that might be a major reason why people feel dissatisfied in neurology - so many of your patients have degenerative/untreatable disorders (stroke, dementia, etc.). And the ones who have treatable disorders are often young and debilitated (MS, epilepsy).
 
I think it is ridiculous when people claim that neurological problems are untreatable. they are on the whole no less untreatable than psychiatric disorders, and the rare degenerative disorders are just that, rare. psychiatry shares some of these neurodegenerative disorders (dementias) with our neurology colleagues. epilepsy and migraine - which are are amongst the most common - are eminently treatable. MS and parkinson's disease are about as treatable as chronic schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder. Most conditions in medicine are not curable, and many are fatal or terminal. For the right person, there is nothing more rewarding that managing those problems for which we have no cure, or for which relief of symptoms is sub-optimal.

Neurologists are not largely dissastisfied with the field because it is boring (the brain has the widest range of possible diseases of any organ), nor because of poor renumeration (they do on average make significantly more than psychiatrists). It is because the kind of person who often goes into neurology is interested more in disease than in patients, only to find that most of what they are seeing is psychiatric (headaches, fatigue, vague weakness, chronic pain, non-epileptic attacks, depression, anxiety, personality disorder, conversion disorder) that they have no interest in dealing with.
 
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I think it is ridiculous when people claim that neurological problems are untreatable. they are on the whole no less untreatable than psychiatric disorders, and the rare degenerative disorders are just that, rare. psychiatry shares some of these neurodegenerative disorders (dementias) with our neurology colleagues. epilepsy and migraine - which are are amongst the most common - are eminently treatable. MS and parkinson's disease are about as treatable as chronic schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder. Most conditions in medicine are not curable, and many are fatal or terminal. For the right person, there is nothing more rewarding that managing those problems for which we have no cure, or for which relief of symptoms is sub-optimal.
That's fair, but I was thinking most about dementias and strokes. You're right to point out that progressive MS isn't too different in that regard from chronic schizophrenia and severe epilepsy is not that different from severe bipolar disorder.
I think I was mostly just being a hater. Thanks for calling me out. I like to use the "neurologists know what they're treating but can't treat it, while psychiatrists don't know what they're treating but can treat it" mantra to egg on the friendly rivalry when I'm bantering with neurology residents...
 
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Would love some insight on my list. Me: MudPhud, planning to continue basic science research. I'm also toying with the idea of Pain Medicine fellowship in the future (yes, I love being a unicorn). Location is not a factor as all of these are in more than tolerable places, save New Haven, which is close enough to NYC.

My list (in no particular order):
Yale
UCSF
UCLA
Stanford
UW
Harvard-Longwood
 
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wow lucky you, all great programs, i feel there is no wrong way to rank that list. But, I would rank 1) UCSF 2) UCLA 3) Longwood 4) Stanford 5) UW 6) Yale . I ranked yale last bc i hate new haven.
 
Not surprising. I was more bored on my neuro rotation than I was on several other snoozefest rotations. That complete neuro exam, man, over and over and over...and rounding for over 5 hours on fewer than 5 patients (not even kidding).
LMAO WTF, wow.
 
wow lucky you, all great programs, i feel there is no wrong way to rank that list. But, I would rank 1) UCSF 2) UCLA 3) Longwood 4) Stanford 5) UW 6) Yale . I ranked yale last bc i hate new haven.
I'd definitely put UW ahead of Longwood and Stanford. UW is truly an incredible program.
 
Hello everyone! Posted a little while ago and didnt get a lot of responses so I thought I would try again--maybe someone who knows more about ky programs will stumble upon this :)

Really struggling between ranking U of Minnesota and Case Western #1. Both have most things I want (opportunity for student mental health, lgbt/sexual wellness clinics, options for psychoanalytic training, lots of 4th year electives). But I would like some other opinions on the programs, interactions you've had with the faculty or other residents, reputation, etc.

Thanks!
 
I'd put UCLA ahead of UCSF.

wow lucky you, all great programs, i feel there is no wrong way to rank that list. But, I would rank 1) UCSF 2) UCLA 3) Longwood 4) Stanford 5) UW 6) Yale . I ranked yale last bc i hate new haven.
 
So, I need help, but not exactly with ranking. I know my top two are University of Michigan and University of Massachusetts. Both are great programs, but my gut feeling is to rank UMass #1. My interests are public policy, community psych, solid foundation for psychopharm and psychotherapy, some research opportunities, and a kickass small city (if any of that makes a difference). My problem is that my fiance just took a job in Ann Arbor and feels the job market in biochemistry is rough around Boston right now. I'm struggling with the idea of changing my initial rank list...

I just need some perspective.
 
UW-Seattle or UW-Madison? Either way, based on what I know, I (personally) wouldn't rank them above Longwood. I don't see in what aspects Longwood could be considered a worse program.

@slappy would you mind elaborating?
 
So, I need help, but not exactly with ranking. I know my top two are University of Michigan and University of Massachusetts. Both are great programs, but my gut feeling is to rank UMass #1. My interests are public policy, community psych, solid foundation for psychopharm and psychotherapy, some research opportunities, and a kickass small city (if any of that makes a difference). My problem is that my fiance just took a job in Ann Arbor and feels the job market in biochemistry is rough around Boston right now. I'm struggling with the idea of changing my initial rank list...

I just need some perspective.

Wait a minute. Worcester is a kickass small city?

I honestly don't think you can go wrong with UMich. I'm not sure about public policy, but I'm pretty sure the program can given you everything else. Plus, isn't your hand sort of forced here? Why inconvenience your fiance (and yourself) when you can live in the same city as him and avoid all the commute (leave alone have him hunt for a new job).
 
So, I need help, but not exactly with ranking. I know my top two are University of Michigan and University of Massachusetts. Both are great programs, but my gut feeling is to rank UMass #1. My interests are public policy, community psych, solid foundation for psychopharm and psychotherapy, some research opportunities, and a kickass small city (if any of that makes a difference). My problem is that my fiance just took a job in Ann Arbor and feels the job market in biochemistry is rough around Boston right now. I'm struggling with the idea of changing my initial rank list...

I just need some perspective.
If your fiance is happy with Ann Arbor (and you're happy with your fiance ;)) I'd have to agree with slappy--and Michigan has a very strong programs in public health, law, forensics...you could definitely build on a public policy interest, or just about any other interest related to psychiatry, there.
UMass has lots of good points, and only you know your gut, but I'd weight that fiance factor extremely heavily, if I were you!
 
So, I need help, but not exactly with ranking. I know my top two are University of Michigan and University of Massachusetts. Both are great programs, but my gut feeling is to rank UMass #1. My interests are public policy, community psych, solid foundation for psychopharm and psychotherapy, some research opportunities, and a kickass small city (if any of that makes a difference). My problem is that my fiance just took a job in Ann Arbor and feels the job market in biochemistry is rough around Boston right now. I'm struggling with the idea of changing my initial rank list...

I just need some perspective.

This should not even be an issue- Michigan comes first without question. Michigan has one of the strongest departments in the country with experts in virtually every field. Ann Arbor is an amazing town... and not just for undergrads either. The fact that your fiancee just took a job in Ann Arbor should seal the deal. Annnnd... JIM HARBAUGH! GO BLUE!
 
This should not even be an issue- Michigan comes first without question. Michigan has one of the strongest departments in the country with experts in virtually every field. Ann Arbor is an amazing town... and not just for undergrads either. The fact that your fiancee just took a job in Ann Arbor should seal the deal. Annnnd... JIM HARBAUGH! GO BLUE!
Agree, except for the Harbaugh/Blue part. Michigan is a great program and UMass is average for an academic place. And I don't really like Boston - too expensive, the roads are terrible, the weather is stupid, and the Red Sox keep beating the Cardinals in the World Series... if I didn't have family in Boston, I'd never go there. If not for the fact that you'd have to root for the Big 10, I'd say that Michigan is good from every perspective.
 
I'm not sure how I would go about that. Longwood is a pretty great program all-around with an amazing C-L service, and access to some of the best mentors and researchers in the country. I just don't think either of the UWs have as much to offer as Longwood does.
Doesn't it depend on what you're looking for? I think it is hard to compare west coast vs east coast programs as they have a different flavor. They are both great programs and both have great C/L services. UW has more extensive outpatient consultation services and leads the way in collaborative care (for better or for worse). If you're hardcore into neuroimaging or having very psychodynamically oriented training that longwood is the place to go. I would agree with slappy that if youre in boston you will have access to a larger proportion of the top researchers in the country, but this may be moot if you're not in the research track and don't have more than a 1/2 day a week until 4th year to make use of that. They do have ALOT of call, and a lot less elective time than many programs. they also have the old model of C/L in PGY-3 year which cuts into outpatient time and means only half your time is elective in PGY-4 year. There are a lot of benefits to being all outpatient from PGY-3, it is the promised land for such inclined residents. It's not a particularly flexible program. I think the main selling point for UW is you get elective time early on (if you so wish from PGY-1 year) and have lots of flexibility for choosing even required rotations (like med vs peds, several neurology options include neurorads, neuropsych, movement disorder, several child psych/addiction/geropsych options) and you can be mostly elective from PGY-3 year. For people wanting to do pain/sleep/palliative medicine fellowships there is an advantage to doing electives of these during your PGY-3 which would be difficult if not impossible at longwood but are standard offerings at UW. The flexibility offers more individualized experience. That will suit people who wish to carve out their own path and interests early on. You also can get protected time for teaching med students/residents/undergrads (if you like education) from early on which you deffo don't get at longwood or most places and might make UW a better option for clinician educator type people. I don't see how you could go wrong with either really and would come down to personal preference and boston vs seattle.
 
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Thanks for the responses! Just to clarify, I meant UW-Seattle, not Madison ;)
 
Thanks for the responses! Just to clarify, I meant UW-Seattle, not Madison ;)
As did I. I love Seattle though so that's my grain of salt but I think University of Washington is a truly stand out program.it's one of those programs that truly offers anything that you want to do. It also offers a ton of flexibility as mentioned above.
 
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