Official Diploma Mill List

[streetpreacher]

Did your parents drop you on your head when you were young or are you just too lazy to actually do any research about these schools?

Based on other posts she has made, I think the answer is clearly option A.

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[owlegrad]

Based on other posts she has made, I think the answer is clearly option A.

Not very nice for a preacher.

 

[SHC1984]

Did your parents drop you on your head when you were young or are you just too lazy to actually do any research about these schools?

Hmmm...I don't know the school isn't ranked and charges high tuition and you just got defensive over nothing so let me guess you go there? So I don't know why don't you tell me!

 

[SHC1984]

Is it?? They have well known medical school and hospital...

Just do yourself a favor and go to UNC. It's ranked number 2 in the country and has a great reputation. Don't listen to the angry people in this thread that are trying to justified their decisions of taking out 200K for a unranked school that's built 5 years ago.

 

[Filler]

Hmmm...I don't know the school isn't ranked and charges high tuition and you just got defensive over nothing so let me guess you go there? So I don't know why don't you tell me!

No, I won't. Arguing with you would be like arguing with a 5 year old, it's pointless. All I want to say is, when you start working as a pharmacist your going to be in for a fun surprise.

 

[SHC1984]

No, I won't. Arguing with you would be like arguing with a 5 year old, it's pointless. All I want to say is, when you start working as a pharmacist your going to be in for a fun surprise.

So I guess since you can't defend such a sh*tty school so the only thing that you can do to make yourself look good on a public forum is to insult me? I guess that's typical of the people that attend those kind of schools.

Surprise as a pharmacist? I have perfect grades, great research, a few ex activities, and attend a high rank non-diploma mill school, so I think I'll be just fine. You should worry more about yourself especially if that's the kind of school you are attending.

 

[Filler]

So I guess since you can't defend such a sh*tty school so the only thing that you can do to make yourself look good on a public forum is to insult me? I guess that's typical of the people that attend those kind of schools.

Surprise as a pharmacist? I have perfect grades, great research, a few ex activities, and attend a high rank non-diploma mill school, so I think I'll be just fine. You should worry more about yourself especially if that's the kind of school you are attending.

You seem to be missing Common Sense, and Mercer sadly failed on helping you with that.

I guess for such a ****ty school, having one of the oldest (and still active) medical schools in the country would count next to nothing.

 

[SHC1984]

Your seem to be missing Common Sense, and Mercer sadly failed on helping you with that.

I guess for such a ****ty school, having one of the oldest (and still active) medical school in the country would count next to nothing.

Look hun, you can insult me all you want, but that won't change the kind of school you are attending. Mercer is just one of the schools I have attended. I have also been accepted and attended schools that are Ivy League, much better than what I can say for someone like you. LOL...

It's funny how people get mad over someone stating a fact and they do nothing but insult the person that stated the fact. Whatever works for you.

Medical? We are talking about pharmacy schools here. Medical school won't help you and I am the one that lacks common sense?

 

[R2pharmD2]

You seem to be missing Common Sense, and Mercer sadly failed on helping you with that.

I guess for such a ****ty school, having one of the oldest (and still active) medical schools in the country would count next to nothing.

Having an associated medical school, especially one of high quality, is certainly an asset, but I don't see where it provides evidence of the quality of the pharmacy school. The pharmacy school could very well be excellent, but why risk your future with an unproven pharmacy school when the alternative is UNC? It's hard/impossible to do much better than UNC anyway.

 

[Filler]

Having an associated medical school, especially one of high quality, is certainly an asset, but I don't see where it provides evidence of the quality of the pharmacy school. The pharmacy school could very well be excellent, but why risk your future with an unproven pharmacy school when the alternative is UNC? It's hard/impossible to do much better than UNC anyway.

My argument had nothing to do with UNC, which is a great school, my issue had to do with tossing the label of diploma mill randomly around..

 

[R2pharmD2]

My argument had nothing to do with UNC, which is a great school, my issue had to do with tossing the label of diploma mill randomly around..

Fair point. I disagree with the use of the term in reference to any pharmacy school actually. My comparison of the two schools was directed towards the original question of which one to choose, although I didn't make that distinction. I just wanted to point out that debating the quality of Jefferson is academic when the alternative is UNC.

 

[thedrunkenpharm]

UNC grad here.

If you're going to UNC as an Out of State student (which is pretty amazing, considering we only allow about 18% of each P1 class as OOS) then be sure to get that in-state tuition ASAP. UNC are very strict about how they grant it (e.g. one classmate of mine drove back home out of state about twice a month for the P1 year and was denied in-state).

Go to UNC if you are given the golden ticket. Student Services staff are very supportive, networking is high quality, and the academic rigor is very fulfilling.

 

[Electrode]

It's embarrassingly hilarious that all these while, "diploma mill" has been mis-defined. And most of us here are suppose to be the "god" graduates merely because an older school handed you the PharmD certificate.

Darn it, I thought I was done with tutoring but I guess I'll make an exception this time.


English 101: The real/appropriate meaning of diploma mill is manufacturer of diplomas. The diploma in question here would be the PharmD, yea? Yes. And which ACPE accredited school/program would you say that doesn't manufacture a PharmD diploma(s)? Just name one. Wait, is that a zero? Thought so.

So really, ALL ACPE accredited pharmacy schools/programs who has issued/awarded at least one graduate or more with a PharmD degree is a DIPLOMA MILL!


Now, if you had argued that you don't support the influx of new programs without them expanding the job market in a fitting correlation, your argument would be worth "two in the bush".

This thread is nothing more than a yet-another condescending expression of students from older schools towards newer school students, under the blanket of misinterpreting diploma mill. Or did you guys really think a newer school has no chance of having a much better program than an older school? To dwell on the vice-versa would be a potential form of blunt ignorance.

P.S. I've already been accepted to a very old program (or does the word "established" add more credibility to it? ).

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I'm really starting to get tired of this thread myself. We've debated a lot of this stuff to death and arguing about it is like arguing over religion, politics, etc. since almost no one is going to change their mind.

You can buy an old classic car and be proud to have a classic car. But a 2010 isn't really bad either despite it being brand new (albeit might not always be as good as the classic.) Either way though, it gets you where you need to go.

Maybe I should start asking all my co-workers and management where they went to school so I can start judging how qualified they are to do the job they have been doing well for years.

 

[rxlea]

OK let's keep it civil guys. No need for insults.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I've lived in North Carolina for more than 10 years, I am not sure if I want to move back again. Now I am living in New York City, I really wanna go somewhere closer to home. I am waiting for Temple University and University of Maryland for the interview...

#1 Jefferson is not a diploma mill program and anyone who says that is just flat out incorrect. Ignore them. It's a new program and there will always be kinks with new programs, but I think it should be fine.

#2 I think you should figure out (if you can) what your long term goals are. If practicing in the New York or Philly area is what you want, then moving back home to UNC may not provide you with significant advantage. UNC is a good school, but most people (outside of some SDNers who are OBSESSED with them) don't pay that much attention to rankings. If you don't believe me, ask a random sample of pharmacists in your area to name 3 schools in the Top 10. Most won't have a clue.

So, if you want to live and practice in NC, it would behoove you to move back there and start making contacts that will lead to opportunities for rotations and then jobs in that area. If the Northeast is your goal, then you might want to consider schools in that area for rotations, networking and future jobs. With jobs becoming more scarce, networking is extremely important, so I'd focus on picking a school where I could start building relationships with people who can help meet long term goals.

JMO.

 

[streetpreacher]

Not very nice for a preacher.

You can do better than that, I expected more from you.

 

[confettiflyer]

Besides isn't Jefferson a diploma mill school? LOL...

oooh you owe me a drink next time i come to ATL for that one missy

 

[owlegrad]

You can do better than that, I expected more from you.

Haha, some posts are better than others I guess. I will do my best to live up to your expectations starting with my next post.

 

[SHC1984]

oooh you owe me a drink next time i come to ATL for that one missy

OMG do you go there? I am soooooo SORRY CT! You know I U! hehe...

I'll buy you a drink when you come down!!!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

English 101: The real/appropriate meaning of diploma mill is manufacturer of diplomas. The diploma in question here would be the PharmD, yea? Yes. And which ACPE accredited school/program would you say that doesn't manufacture a PharmD diploma(s)? Just name one. Wait, is that a zero? Thought so.

So really, ALL ACPE accredited pharmacy schools/programs who has issued/awarded at least one graduate or more with a PharmD degree is a DIPLOMA MILL!

The accepted meaning of a diploma mill is a business that sells degrees to people for money without any sort of academic study behind it.

We discussed the hyperbole of calling a pharmacy school a diploma mill all the way back on page one. It's been well established that the term is more pejorative than literal at this point in the thread.

 

[rph3664]

The accepted meaning of a diploma mill is a business that sells degrees to people for money without any sort of academic study behind it.

We discussed the hyperbole of calling a pharmacy school a diploma mill all the way back on page one. It's been well established that the term is more pejorative than literal at this point in the thread.

My hometown has a pharmacy school that was indeed a diploma mill, as was much of the rest of the college, for a long stretch of time. This school almost lost its accreditation because of the not-insignificant number of students that could not pass the NAPLEX within 5 years of graduation. This happened in the 1970s and 1980s.

I'll tell you which school that was if you PM me.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

My hometown has a pharmacy school that was indeed a diploma mill, as was much of the rest of the college, for a long stretch of time. This school almost lost its accreditation because of the not-insignificant number of students that could not pass the NAPLEX within 5 years of graduation. This happened in the 1970s and 1980s.

I'll tell you which school that was if you PM me.

Just tell us. If the school lost and regained accreditation, it's a matter of public record anyway. It's not like you are gossiping.

 

[rxlea]

OK, here are two questions for students and pharmacists:

What makes a quality rotation site?

What makes a quality IPPE site?

 

[owlegrad]

OK, here are two questions for students and pharmacists:

What makes a quality rotation site?

What makes a quality IPPE site?

I wouldn't know, I haven't had one.

A good site would have time/interest in showing us how to be pharmacists. Would not be the exact same activity week after week. Would not be pointless busy work.

 

[SeekerofTruth]

Why doesn't anyone step in and say "no more pharmacy schools?"

 

[owlegrad]

Why doesn't anyone step in and say "no more pharmacy schools?"

You mean a John Wayne style gunslinger? I envision a traveling cowboy who goes from town to town shutting down new schools. "We don't take kindly to your type around here".


Who should have that kind of power? It's called a free market for a reason. Who do you think should be able to shut down programs because they think supply is too high? That is crazy, imo.

 

[SeekerofTruth]

You mean a John Wayne style gunslinger? I envision a traveling cowboy who goes from town to town shutting down new schools. "We don't take kindly to your type around here".


Who should have that kind of power? It's called a free market for a reason. Who do you think should be able to shut down programs because they think supply is too high? That is crazy, imo.

Doesn't someone care enough about this to do something? So many people are whining on a forum about the saturation. Someone do something about these "diploma mills" or risk being blamed for the reason so many pharmacists will be left unemployed, whether they are new grads or old.

 

[PharmD RPh]

Doesn't someone care enough about this to do something? So many people are whining on a forum about the saturation. Someone do something about these "diploma mills" or risk being blamed for the reason so many pharmacists will be left unemployed, whether they are new grads or old.

I wanna start a website to raise awareness. Anyone web savvy?

 

[owlegrad]

Doesn't someone care enough about this to do something?

There are a great number of people who care about this very much. They are just not in a position to be able to do anything about them. The fact remains there really is nothing that can be done. Who exactly should be able to stop new schools from opening?

 

[hanhuang]

UNC grad here.

If you're going to UNC as an Out of State student (which is pretty amazing, considering we only allow about 18% of each P1 class as OOS) then be sure to get that in-state tuition ASAP. UNC are very strict about how they grant it (e.g. one classmate of mine drove back home out of state about twice a month for the P1 year and was denied in-state).

Go to UNC if you are given the golden ticket. Student Services staff are very supportive, networking is high quality, and the academic rigor is very fulfilling.

Thanks for the info. How do I apply for in-state tuition?? Since I haven't live in NC for about a year..

 

[hanhuang]

oooh you owe me a drink next time i come to ATL for that one missy

hey CT how do you like Jefferson?? Do you know anyone from Jefferson are doing internship right now??

 

[confettiflyer]

There are a great number of people who care about this very much. They are just not in a position to be able to do anything about them. The fact remains there really is nothing that can be done. Who exactly should be able to stop new schools from opening?

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

 

[confettiflyer]

hey CT how do you like Jefferson?? Do you know anyone from Jefferson are doing internship right now??

It's fine, I'm getting what I want/need, and I'm an inpatient intern. The only thing I wish we had were APPE's in the UK or Australia. Though I'm curious to get our PCOA results for our upcoming January test to see how we stack up against other students.

 

[PharmD RPh]

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

Good post. Please elaborate on this track you want to run on... Examples? Maybe the student loan bubble will force the government to rethink their legislative policies we've adopted. There are legislative committees addressing this crisis and hopefully coming up with solutions. I will post link to congress members that are involved tomorrow. I still think if the surplus gets bad enough the market will put itself back in it's place.... Eventually.... Could take a while.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Good post. Please elaborate on this track you want to run on... Examples? Maybe the student loan bubble will force the government to rethink their legislative policies we've adopted. There are legislative committees addressing this crisis and hopefully coming up with solutions. I will post link to congress members that are involved tomorrow. I still think if the surplus gets bad enough the market will put itself back in it's place.... Eventually.... Could take a while.

The way government loans are being distributed right now is going to change, however the spotlight is mainly focused on for-profit schools that truly are diploma mills (DeVry, University of Phoenix, etc.). These schools have abnormally high rates of graduates who default on their loans and often have misleading/false recruitment and enrollment policies. Pharmacy, however bad we think it may be, is not at that point yet. Until a significant number of pharmacy students begin defaulting on their loans (not likely in the near future), any reform in the process isn't likely to help us.

What Confetti was referring to, and is the only realistic "solution" at this point, is altering the profession in such a way that the market fundamentally changes. There are a few forces at play in this right now.

First, many non-retail options are currently beginning to see limitations in their availability to pharmacists without residency training (not everywhere, but the amount of hospitals requiring a residency out of their new hires is increasing). This will potentially deter a small number of potential students (not many) in the near future.

Second, as the market becomes more and more filled, potential students will be less likely to see pharmacy as a get-rich-quick scheme. This will be a more delayed effect, and probably won't occur for another few years down the road.

Professional organizations are also becoming involved, pushing mandatory residency training, extra certifications, etc., which may or may not catch on with potential employers. If these become a reality in the form that they're currently envisioned in, then this will create a bottleneck at the backend of education, similar to what occurs in medical training. If graduates can't practice, they won't enroll. The extent and timing of these changes is still very unclear.

The economy also plays into this. Graduation rates have peaked while the economy is at it's worst, so it's difficult to say what effect the economy has truly had on the market. Once things pick up, life may be fine and dandy. I personally don't think this is the case, and I feel that any relief after the economy rebounds is simply delaying the inevitable.

So, after all that rambling, I don't have a solution. Schools that are in the planning stages currently aren't likely to stop planning. The ACPE has no power to stop new schools from opening, and existing schools aren't likely to stop expanding any time soon. Only time will tell if we end up at a happy balance or like the lawyers.

 

[deleted329060]

Not very nice for a preacher.

that's why he only gives sermons on the streets

 

[confettiflyer]

Good post. Please elaborate on this track you want to run on... Examples? Maybe the student loan bubble will force the government to rethink their legislative policies we've adopted. There are legislative committees addressing this crisis and hopefully coming up with solutions. I will post link to congress members that are involved tomorrow. I still think if the surplus gets bad enough the market will put itself back in it's place.... Eventually.... Could take a while.

My train analogy...I was referring to finding niches in healthcare for pharmacists and increasing total overall demand on the back end. This is a better/more effective option vs. the short-sighted of trying to restrict supply.

As for the market correcting, it's already doing so by moving to preferring residency trained pharmacists, decreased sign on bonuses, and no more automatic hiring. You'll need good references and an "in" to the institution...so basically, pharmacy will become like any other career, and many of our dear book smart/street stupid classmates won't know how to function in it.

I don't think you'll see outright salary reductions, but you'll probably not see them rise in accordance with inflation (when that comes roaring back)...so in essence a decrease in real terms.

 

[PharmD RPh]

The way government loans are being distributed right now is going to change, however the spotlight is mainly focused on for-profit schools that truly are diploma mills (DeVry, University of Phoenix, etc.). These schools have abnormally high rates of graduates who default on their loans and often have misleading/false recruitment and enrollment policies. Pharmacy, however bad we think it may be, is not at that point yet. Until a significant number of pharmacy students begin defaulting on their loans (not likely in the near future), any reform in the process isn't likely to help us.

What Confetti was referring to, and is the only realistic "solution" at this point, is altering the profession in such a way that the market fundamentally changes. There are a few forces at play in this right now.

First, many non-retail options are currently beginning to see limitations in their availability to pharmacists without residency training (not everywhere, but the amount of hospitals requiring a residency out of their new hires is increasing). This will potentially deter a small number of potential students (not many) in the near future.

Second, as the market becomes more and more filled, potential students will be less likely to see pharmacy as a get-rich-quick scheme. This will be a more delayed effect, and probably won't occur for another few years down the road.

Professional organizations are also becoming involved, pushing mandatory residency training, extra certifications, etc., which may or may not catch on with potential employers. If these become a reality in the form that they're currently envisioned in, then this will create a bottleneck at the backend of education, similar to what occurs in medical training. If graduates can't practice, they won't enroll. The extent and timing of these changes is still very unclear.

The economy also plays into this. Graduation rates have peaked while the economy is at it's worst, so it's difficult to say what effect the economy has truly had on the market. Once things pick up, life may be fine and dandy. I personally don't think this is the case, and I feel that any relief after the economy rebounds is simply delaying the inevitable.

So, after all that rambling, I don't have a solution. Schools that are in the planning stages currently aren't likely to stop planning. The ACPE has no power to stop new schools from opening, and existing schools aren't likely to stop expanding any time soon. Only time will tell if we end up at a happy balance or like the lawyers.

All very valid points. But, I think 2011 is the tipping year where there are going to be tons of students without jobs. Other than the economy picking up, 2012 isn't going to be any better. We'll end up producing probably 20-25k new grads in 2 years in a market that cant absorb that many evening if you account for retiring pharmacists and let's say Walgreens and cvs open 500 new stores combined (1250 rphs). And lets say 10000 retire over 2 years. That opens 12500 jobs roughly. I just don't understand why the academic world can't say, "okay. I realize there is a real problem here. I want to band together with all other COP and agree to cut class size this year temporarily by 15% then reanalyze the situation next year". It seems prudent that if a lot of schools want to exist at the same time this is what needs to happen. Because if I'm a prepharm student and I'm hearing that 50 people are having to interview for one spot and I'm going to have to go 150k not debt pkus spend all those years of school to nit be guaranteed a job, then I'm looking at other careers. Then we see a drastic decline in application rates and I don't see how some schools could still survive from there.

 

[tungsten87]

All very valid points. But, I think 2011 is the tipping year where there are going to be tons of students without jobs. Other than the economy picking up, 2012 isn't going to be any better. We'll end up producing probably 20-25k new grads in 2 years in a market that cant absorb that many evening if you account for retiring pharmacists and let's say Walgreens and cvs open 500 new stores combined (1250 rphs). And lets say 10000 retire over 2 years. That opens 12500 jobs roughly. I just don't understand why the academic world can't say, "okay. I realize there is a real problem here. I want to band together with all other COP and agree to cut class size this year temporarily by 15% then reanalyze the situation next year". It seems prudent that if a lot of schools want to exist at the same time this is what needs to happen. Because if I'm a prepharm student and I'm hearing that 50 people are having to interview for one spot and I'm going to have to go 150k not debt pkus spend all those years of school to nit be guaranteed a job, then I'm looking at other careers. Then we see a drastic decline in application rates and I don't see how some schools could still survive from there.

this is already happening. I'm at a "top 10" school and our applications have dropped from 2200 in 2009 to 1900 in 2010, and likely even less for 2011. This may seem like a good thing but it really is not.. what you have here is the people who take the time to do in-depth research on this career will probably do something else (med/dent) while the others who ignore these blatant warning signs who are blinded by the "C's = pharmd = 100G" mentality will continue to apply. this means schools will have to accept lower quality applicants or decrease class size, with the latter being less likely at most places. the fact that D'Youville has billboards advertising this career as a get rich quick thing makes me nauseous.

 

[PharmD RPh]

this is already happening. I'm at a "top 10" school and our applications have dropped from 2200 in 2009 to 1900 in 2010, and likely even less for 2011. This may seem like a good thing but it really is not.. what you have here is the people who take the time to do in-depth research on this career will probably do something else (med/dent) while the others who ignore these blatant warning signs who are blinded by the "C's = pharmd = 100G" mentality will continue to apply. this means schools will have to accept lower quality applicants or decrease class size, with the latter being less likely at most places. the fact that D'Youville has billboards advertising this career as a get rich quick thing makes me nauseous.

Yeah, accepting less than stellar students is the short term side effect. However, if they continue to plummet, which I expect them to, then there should be a point where schools would have to lower their class size or close altogether. The reason.... schools that continue to accept such low quality students should have a difficult time passing boards or people know its so bad in pharmacy and the applications are so low they can't fill their seats. Seems a little far fetched at the moment, but we'll see this summer what kind of response schools take to the grumpy grads that are complaining to administrators about not having a job. Then they'll tell their friends, which will tell their friends and hopefully get the word out that pharmacy is not what it used to be.

 

[Its Z]

When do you work dude?

Yeah, accepting less than stellar students is the short term side effect. However, if they continue to plummet, which I expect them to, then there should be a point where schools would have to lower their class size or close altogether. The reason.... schools that continue to accept such low quality students should have a difficult time passing boards or people know its so bad in pharmacy and the applications are so low they can't fill their seats. Seems a little far fetched at the moment, but we'll see this summer what kind of response schools take to the grumpy grads that are complaining to administrators about not having a job. Then they'll tell their friends, which will tell their friends and hopefully get the word out that pharmacy is not what it used to be.

 

[joetrisman]

When do you work dude?

Z's "work":

 

[PharmD RPh]

Z's "work":

Not sure I follow....

 

[joetrisman]

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

How was the ADA able to restrict dental schools through CODA and actually shut down a couple to regulate demand?

 

[confettiflyer]

How was the ADA able to restrict dental schools through CODA and actually shut down a couple to regulate demand?

Not familiar with the CODA actions, but I would venture a guess they did so through other legitimate pretenses, or those actions were relevant to the profession. "Regulating supply/demand" is blatantly a violation of antitrust rules.

Trust me, if I were a school that were getting shut down by an accrediting body, the first call I'd make would be to legal to see if there's a way to litigate my way out of it.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Not familiar with the CODA actions, but I would venture a guess they did so through other legitimate pretenses, or those actions were relevant to the profession. "Regulating supply/demand" is blatantly a violation of antitrust rules.

Trust me, if I were a school that were getting shut down by an accrediting body, the first call I'd make would be to legal to see if there's a way to litigate my way out of it.

Maybe this "ADA shutting down dental schools" thing is urban legend? Kind of like the "AMA controls med schools and class size" thing from the other thread. I've heard the ADA thing before, but don't know anything concrete or verifiable. Interesting though.

 

[joetrisman]

Not familiar with the CODA actions, but I would venture a guess they did so through other legitimate pretenses, or those actions were relevant to the profession. "Regulating supply/demand" is blatantly a violation of antitrust rules.

Trust me, if I were a school that were getting shut down by an accrediting body, the first call I'd make would be to legal to see if there's a way to litigate my way out of it.

I should had known better than to trust doom and gloomer threads (the source of my coda info). Apparently (after a skim into some more info about multiple dental schools closing), they are not as lucrative to finance as other schools are at a university. So it was actually the universities shutting them down to cut costs in the long term...from what I gather.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I should had known better than to trust doom and gloomer threads (the source of my coda info). Apparently (after a skim into some more info about multiple dental schools closing), they are not as lucrative to finance as other schools are at a university. So it was actually the universities shutting them down to cut costs in the long term...from what I gather.

That makes sense. I would think it would be very expensive because of all the specialized equipment needed. Much like it is very expensive to fund a start up dental practice.

 

[Zetch]

everyone here is too funny to begin with. Before they enter Pharmacy schools, they want any opportunity to get in. After they're in, they start complaining of other Diploma mills when were they graduated is a Diploma Mill itself. Way to be hypocritical. Just shut up and accept the new schools. When there's saturation the market will control itself.