Official Diploma Mill List

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Anecdotal comments like this mean nothing to me without proof. If you want to say that, I can say that I personally work with three D'Youville pre-pharms at my hospital who were just accepted, and their PCAT scores were all in the low 40's. (True story). But like I said in my previous post, my intentions were not to rag on you for a specific PCAT score, I was just trying to make a point about the school. You did have a good gpa and work experience. IMO, work experience such as yours is worth its weight in gold compared to someone with a 4.0, 90+ PCAT, with no exp. I meet so many pharmacy students that are in school, but yet never stepped foot in a pharmacy prior to school rotations. These students seem so apathetic about learning, or getting experience, that I can't help but think of why they are probably going into the profession in the first place?$....But anyways, congrats on the acceptance and I'm sure you'll do just fine with whatever school you decide on.

You not accepting my comment as valid is the same reason that I dismiss yours. You are basing your reasons for not liking D'Youville on personal accounts and not statistical.

But we can end it there.. your congrats are appreciated, thanks :rolleyes:

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I think of all the new pharmacy schools opening up like this... What if the NBA decided to double the number of teams in the league? They would ultimately have to allow players in that have no business playing in the NBA. Sure, there will be players coming up that end up on these teams that would have made it to the NBA anyways but there will have to be a lot of players allowed in that never would have been before. Doing this lowers the competitiveness of getting into the league and also the quality of players in the NBA. If there were say only 30 pharmacy schools in the country, (just a number, not saying that's what it should be) then the people who got in would most likely be top notch students that really deserve it. To be honest, when people post up their really low GPA and PCAT scores (yes, I know there are other factors as well) and still get into a pharmacy program, I'm embarrassed for our profession. Just like with the NBA example, the growing number of pharmacy schools are accepting people that have no business being in pharmacy school. The competitiveness of getting into a pharmacy program to become a professional is becoming a joke and saturating a market that isn't in demand.
 
I think of all the new pharmacy schools opening up like this... What if the NBA decided to double the number of teams in the league? They would ultimately have to allow players in that have no business playing in the NBA. Sure, there will be players coming up that end up on these teams that would have made it to the NBA anyways but there will have to be a lot of players allowed in that never would have been before. Doing this lowers the competitiveness of getting into the league and also the quality of players in the NBA. If there were say only 30 pharmacy schools in the country, (just a number, not saying that's what it should be) then the people who got in would most likely be top notch students that really deserve it. To be honest, when people post up their really low GPA and PCAT scores (yes, I know there are other factors as well) and still get into a pharmacy program, I'm embarrassed for our profession. Just like with the NBA example, the growing number of pharmacy schools are accepting people that have no business being in pharmacy school. The competitiveness of getting into a pharmacy program to become a professional is becoming a joke and saturating a market that isn't in demand.

:claps: Post is right on the money. Should we form a pharmacist union like the NBA players on the players union?
 
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You not accepting my comment as valid is the same reason that I dismiss yours. You are basing your reasons for not liking D'Youville on personal accounts and not statistical.

But we can end it there.. your congrats are appreciated, thanks :rolleyes:

D'youville is a Diploma Mill. I'm sorry if you can't accept that fact. The Buffalo market was saturated even before D'youville started accepting students. Now on top of St John Fisher, and LECOM, the buffalo area has a fourth pharmacy school. They advertize it like crap and to be honest, they don't have the faculty that UB has. The tuition is outrageous as well.

The reason why they have rotation sites is probably because they pay preceptors.

I know people who got in there and let me say there are stories.

But to each its own. I'm not going to be the one with 200k in debt and no chance of job.
 
You not accepting my comment as valid is the same reason that I dismiss yours. You are basing your reasons for not liking D'Youville on personal accounts and not statistical.

But we can end it there.. your congrats are appreciated, thanks :rolleyes:
Do you really want me to start listing statistical reasons why D'Youville is a diploma mill? I don't think you do...But you just don't seem to get it, so I'm not even wasting my time on this anymore. :laugh:
 
Do you really want me to start listing statistical reasons why D'Youville is a diploma mill? I don't think you do...But you just don't seem to get it, so I'm not even wasting my time on this anymore. :laugh:

Wow. That's a lot of schools in the buffalo area. What are people saying about the market and what are students planning go do when they graduate in that area without jobs?
 
Do you really want me to start listing statistical reasons why D'Youville is a diploma mill? I don't think you do...But you just don't seem to get it, so I'm not even wasting my time on this anymore. :laugh:

I think he and everyone knows that D'Youville is a diploma mill, but I really doubt he cares b/c he has already said previously that he knows a independent pharmacy that is willing to hire him FOR SURE upon graduation. If that's the case then he is right FOR HIM the school does not matter b/c he has a very good connection (more like a guarantee job offer!).

However for the rest of D'Youville, it will not be so good. :(
 
I think he and everyone knows that D'Youville is a diploma mill, but I really doubt he cares b/c he has already said previously that he knows a independent pharmacy that is willing to hire him FOR SURE upon graduation. If that's the case then he is right FOR HIM the school does not matter b/c he has a very good connection (more like a guarantee job offer!).

However for the rest of D'Youville, it will not be so good. :(

I know you mentioned there are only 50 or so dental schools but I know where I live the market is highly saturated and friends tell me it's that way with dentist in most major metropolitan areas. They say you need gpr now to even become an associate in a good practice. Seems like if I went dental I'd have to specialize.
 
I know you mentioned there are only 50 or so dental schools but I know where I live the market is highly saturated and friends tell me it's that way with dentist in most major metropolitan areas. They say you need gpr now to even become an associate in a good practice. Seems like if I went dental I'd have to specialize.

Yeah there are like 52 dental schools in the country. Your friends are right there are saturations of GENERAL dentists in major cities. Obviously if you open up your own practice you better have a GOOD reputation or no one will go to your practice! lol...it's like any other business. General dentists experience saturation too and their student loans are massive! :eek:

If you specialize *HINT* get into Orthodontic residency then you are GOLDEN!!! But most people do not know that getting into an ortho residency is like winning the MISS USA contest! It's not easy at all...it is EXTREMELY competitive. Maybe the top 3 to 5 students in your class will get it MAYBE. :laugh: Even if you are number one in your class you better also have a research publication, be the president of all the clubs in your school, discover the cure for cavities, etc. before you are even considered competitive enough to land a residency like Ortho. BUt if you get into Ortho your life will be very sweet after that! :laugh: If I tell you how much my orthodontist make it will make you sick.

Same with Oral Surgery...that is not as competitive as ortho, but it is still extremely competitive and if you get to Oral surgery you are golden too...but not as golden as Ortho but still hot!

SO yes, if you want to go into dentistry it is best to land an ortho or oral surgery residency, but your chances of landing is slim. :(
 
Yeah there are like 52 dental schools in the country. Your friends are right there are saturations of GENERAL dentists in major cities. Obviously if you open up your own practice you better have a GOOD reputation or no one will go to your practice! lol...it's like any other business. General dentists experience saturation too and their student loans are massive! :eek:

If you specialize *HINT* get into Orthodontic residency then you are GOLDEN!!! But most people do not know that getting into an ortho residency is like winning the MISS USA contest! It's not easy at all...it is EXTREMELY competitive. Maybe the top 3 to 5 students in your class will get it MAYBE. :laugh: Even if you are number one in your class you better also have a research publication, be the president of all the clubs in your school, discover the cure for cavities, etc. before you are even considered competitive enough to land a residency like Ortho. BUt if you get into Ortho your life will be very sweet after that! :laugh: If I tell you how much my orthodontist make it will make you sick.

Same with Oral Surgery...that is not as competitive as ortho, but it is still extremely competitive and if you get to Oral surgery you are golden too...but not as golden as Ortho but still hot!

SO yes, if you want to go into dentistry it is best to land an ortho or oral surgery residency, but your chances of landing is slim. :(

Dental boards are going to a pass/fail too making it harder to distinguish yourself for specialty. I'd have to say no thanks to dental school plus 6 more years residency to do oral surgery. States (medicaid) are also telling gen dentist that they aren't going to pay for root canals anymore and for them to pull teeth! The thing dentist have up on us is they offer a cognitive service they do with their hands that can be billed for. We are dependent on mds to write rxs in order for us to do our job. I really hope our profession keeps expanding. We were supposed to be getting a pharmacist practioner that would be like a pharmacist/pa combined that could expand our role, but I haven't heard anymore rumblings of that.
 
Like I said I agree with some that it is a diploma mill but it seems that's people are varying on what the def. Is. I agree in the sense that it is a newer school not well established yet.

Regardless of this I didn't want to start an argument. Just sticking up for a school I think truly is headed in the right direction.

I never have even said I am going there for sure. Despite if I go there albany or sjf, I just hope to have a good experience that I can better myself, and have the knowledge to be the best pharmacist possible.

I truly didn't mean to stat or create any turmoil. I hope anyone or all of those out there, regardless where they go to school the best of luck. Its just my opinion, as it is yours. Even though I have a so called job offer waiting for me, I take that as a blessing and motivation to continue to do well. There are many stipulations that must be met while in school, so its not being handed to me ha.

But for anyone reading or looking to see if their school makes the list, we at the end of the day have to go where is best for us, our situation, and life.
 
Dental boards are going to a pass/fail too making it harder to distinguish yourself for specialty. I'd have to say no thanks to dental school plus 6 more years residency to do oral surgery. States (medicaid) are also telling gen dentist that they aren't going to pay for root canals anymore and for them to pull teeth! The thing dentist have up on us is they offer a cognitive service they do with their hands that can be billed for. We are dependent on mds to write rxs in order for us to do our job. I really hope our profession keeps expanding. We were supposed to be getting a pharmacist practioner that would be like a pharmacist/pa combined that could expand our role, but I haven't heard anymore rumblings of that.

Oh I KNOW!!!! There are huge debates about this on the dental forum too...there are debates on whether school name matters or not etc. The same as here! :laugh:

I won't do oral surgery b/c of the 6 year residency, the blood/surgery part..LOL, and the liability involved. The job paids very well though. I was only considering orthodontics and I have NO idea how they will distingush between students when the boards are pass/fail! :confused: It use to be if you have a 96% or above you are competitve for Ortho (provided everything else is perfect too), but now I have no idea how they will compare people without the boards!

I don't regret choosing pharmacy. I like pharmacy better than dentistry that's why I choose the profession! :laugh: I just really hate the lack of regulation of schools and the surplus of graduates being pump out every year. (didn't know this at the time I was applying..) But overall I would rather do a pharmacist's job over a dentist's job anyday!!!

Most dentists don't take medicaid anyways....I have been to a few that don't take any insurance. Which is fine with me b/c I have none! lol...
 
Wow. That's a lot of schools in the buffalo area. What are people saying about the market and what are students planning go do when they graduate in that area without jobs?
The number of students who are applying for residency has gone up.
 
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Like I said I agree with some that it is a diploma mill but it seems that's people are varying on what the def. Is. I agree in the sense that it is a newer school not well established yet.

.

It's a diploma mill b/c the school couldn't careless about the students or the pharmacy profession. They are open b/c they want to make MONEY for themselves. They do not care that the profession is already saturated, they do not care that they are accepting people that are too stupid to become pharmacists, they do not care if their education is good or not...they only care about charging very expensive tuition and putting the money straight into their pockets.

Better picture now?
 
But for anyone reading or looking to see if their school makes the list, we at the end of the day have to go where is best for us, our situation, and life.

I agree completely. I think one thing that people overlook is that students may have perfectly valid reasons for attending new or less established schools and those reasons might have little or nothing to do with the students' qualifications. But it's just easier for them to believe that every new school is a diploma mill and everyone who goes there is un or underqualified for pharmacy school.
 
It's a diploma mill b/c the school couldn't careless about the students or the pharmacy profession. They are open b/c they want to make MONEY for themselves. They do not care that the profession is already saturated, they do not care that they are accepting people that are too stupid to become pharmacists, they do not care if their education is good or not...they only care about charging very expensive tuition and putting the money straight into their pockets.


Better picture now?

Better picture? No? Just an arrogant response. Its okay though. I expected nothing less from someone already into a school that has been open for years.

Makes me kind of sad to think someone like you with such a perception is going to be a pharmacist. But yet again you are the one who said near perfection is necessary, silly me.
 
It's a diploma mill b/c the school couldn't careless about the students or the pharmacy profession. They are open b/c they want to make MONEY for themselves. They do not care that the profession is already saturated, they do not care that they are accepting people that are too stupid to become pharmacists, they do not care if their education is good or not...they only care about charging very expensive tuition and putting the money straight into their pockets.

Better picture now?

You really shouldn't call other people stupid. It's unbecoming and unnecessary.
 
I agree completely. I think one thing that people overlook is that students may have perfectly valid reasons for attending new or less established schools and those reasons might have little or nothing to do with the students' qualifications. But it's just easier for them to believe that every new school is a diploma mill and everyone who goes there is un or underqualified for pharmacy school.

You said it. Not all of us have the opportunity to apply to fifteen schools that are midwest or down south. There are family ties that keep some for example from going anywhere but a few schools. Nice to see someone else sees even a slight bit where im coming from.
 
Makes me kind of sad to think someone like you with such a perception is going to be a pharmacist. .

It's not my perception it is what the school is. They just want YOUR MONEY, they do not care about you.

You must be what 18 years old?

Like others have said they have try to explain to you what a diploma mill is and I think anyone with a brain can understand that so I am getting tired of explaining myself.
 
It's not my perception it is what the school is. They just want YOUR MONEY, they do not care about you.

You must be what 18 years old?

Like others have said they have try to explain to you what a diploma is and I think anyone with a brain can understand that so I am getting tired of explaining myself.

No not eighteen, but again I wouldn't expect any less. how are you going to sit there and say that it is not your perception! Gahh it kills me that you think such a way. And if you are sick of explaining yourself then stop, trust me you response and arrogance in some of your remarks to saying they are allowing those who are too stupid in, has just only discredited any opinion you may have had directed towards me.
 
There are stupid pharmacists out there.... I've met them! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I do think people are motivated to go to one of the less established schools for other reasons. But, there seems to be a lot of people out there too that think diploma mills exist and and I think that students that choose to attend those programs will be fighting an uphill battle after graduation. It is what it is.

On another note, I think I wanna start my own pharm school but I can't do it alone.... Who's with me????:laugh:
 
I'm not sure if anyone has read this article yet, but it seems very germane to the discussion (and may bring it back from endlessly insulting one another). Synopsis: describes the difficulties that law students are having obtaining jobs, especially graduates of lower tier schools.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, the blame here is being misplaced. I can't fault students for applying to newer schools, nor can I place any blame on the rank-and-file professors. There are many reasons why students would attend the "Diploma Mill" schools (for many it's academic deficiencies of one kind or another, but there are plenty of other valid reasons); these are not evil people who are trying to take our jobs away. Likewise with the academic pharmacists - jobs are scarce, and there are jobs available. People need to make a living doing what they love.

If fault lies anywhere, it's with the University and school-level administrators who are clearly ignoring all the warning signs of a rapidly changing marketplace (and not in the good way) for a chance at a quick buck. This stands for the newly opening schools in saturated markets (Touro NY, D'Youville, and a handful of California schools come to mind) as well as the rapid expansion of class sizes at the established schools.

Again, I don't fault the students attending these newer schools, and I hope that they have the same opportunities as every other student in the country. However, I think that some sort of a moratorium needs to be imposed before things get out of hand, and the threats of a collapsed market become a reality.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has read this article yet, but it seems very germane to the discussion (and may bring it back from endlessly insulting one another). Synopsis: describes the difficulties that law students are having obtaining jobs, especially graduates of lower tier schools.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, the blame here is being misplaced. I can't fault students for applying to newer schools, nor can I place any blame on the rank-and-file professors. There are many reasons why students would attend the "Diploma Mill" schools (for many it's academic deficiencies of one kind or another, but there are plenty of other valid reasons); these are not evil people who are trying to take our jobs away. Likewise with the academic pharmacists - jobs are scarce, and there are jobs available. People need to make a living doing what they love.

If fault lies anywhere, it's with the University and school-level administrators who are clearly ignoring all the warning signs of a rapidly changing marketplace (and not in the good way) for a chance at a quick buck. This stands for the newly opening schools in saturated markets (Touro NY, D'Youville, and a handful of California schools come to mind) as well as the rapid expansion of class sizes at the established schools.

Again, I don't fault the students attending these newer schools, and I hope that they have the same opportunities as every other student in the country. However, I think that some sort of a moratorium needs to be imposed before things get out of hand, and the threats of a collapsed market become a reality.

:thumbup: well stated my friend.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has read this article yet, but it seems very germane to the discussion (and may bring it back from endlessly insulting one another). Synopsis: describes the difficulties that law students are having obtaining jobs, especially graduates of lower tier schools.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, the blame here is being misplaced. I can't fault students for applying to newer schools, nor can I place any blame on the rank-and-file professors. There are many reasons why students would attend the "Diploma Mill" schools (for many it's academic deficiencies of one kind or another, but there are plenty of other valid reasons); these are not evil people who are trying to take our jobs away. Likewise with the academic pharmacists - jobs are scarce, and there are jobs available. People need to make a living doing what they love.

If fault lies anywhere, it's with the University and school-level administrators who are clearly ignoring all the warning signs of a rapidly changing marketplace (and not in the good way) for a chance at a quick buck. This stands for the newly opening schools in saturated markets (Touro NY, D'Youville, and a handful of California schools come to mind) as well as the rapid expansion of class sizes at the established schools.

Again, I don't fault the students attending these newer schools, and I hope that they have the same opportunities as every other student in the country. However, I think that some sort of a moratorium needs to be imposed before things get out of hand, and the threats of a collapsed market become a reality.

Everyone should really take a read from the article listed above. It's lengthy but really puts things in perspective. I hope pharmacy doesn't head this direction, but I feel that it might.
 
Everyone should really take a read from the article listed above. It's lengthy but really puts things in perspective. I hope pharmacy doesn't head this direction, but I feel that it might.

I think we're at least a few years away, that is a very good article btw. Granted, I DO think the barriers to entry for pharmacy are higher than law. As a biology/chemistry student, you can apply to both law school AND medical/pharm/dental/etc...; as a social science/political science major, your classes don't satisfy those prerequisites.

Further, there are TTTT law schools that take anyone with a pulse....some of us here would like to think the likes of D'Youville or Belmont take anyone with a pulse and crappy PCAT scores and sub 2.7 GPA's, but again there are those science barriers to contend with, however minimal they are.

Plus, law is quite broad but pharmacy specialized, but at some point (I'm thinking ~2015) you're gonna be seeing strict tier assignments vs. the current shades of gray & forum chit-chat.
 
I think we're at least a few years away, that is a very good article btw. Granted, I DO think the barriers to entry for pharmacy are higher than law. As a biology/chemistry student, you can apply to both law school AND medical/pharm/dental/etc...; as a social science/political science major, your classes don't satisfy those prerequisites.

Further, there are TTTT law schools that take anyone with a pulse....some of us here would like to think the likes of D'Youville or Belmont take anyone with a pulse and crappy PCAT scores and sub 2.7 GPA's, but again there are those science barriers to contend with, however minimal they are.

Plus, law is quite broad but pharmacy specialized, but at some point (I'm thinking ~2015) you're gonna be seeing strict tier assignments vs. the current shades of gray & forum chit-chat.

I agree. I still think we are ~ 3 years out. We will see at that point what affect obamacare will have on pharmacy too. The good news we have some time to correct the situation and hopefully learn from the law schools.
 
I agree. I still think we are ~ 3 years out. We will see at that point what affect obamacare will have on pharmacy too. The good news we have some time to correct the situation and hopefully learn from the law schools.

When people say "we'll see what happens with Obamacare" what are they waiting for in particular? The bill has actions going out all the way into 2018 and beyond. So in 3 years, during 2014, there will be some changes in insurance but there will be in the following years as well. What year are you going to accept as a standard for Obamacare where another change isn't coming a year or two later?

I'm only curious. I hear this alot and *some* people (not saying you) think it's going to clear up in a year or two and that's it.
 
When people say "we'll see what happens with Obamacare" what are they waiting for in particular? The bill has actions going out all the way into 2018 and beyond. So in 3 years, during 2014, there will be some changes in insurance but there will be in the following years as well. What year are you going to accept as a standard for Obamacare where another change isn't coming a year or two later?

I'm only curious. I hear this alot and *some* people (not saying you) think it's going to clear up in a year or two and that's it.

I think we're just gearing up for regulations and guidance being issued, not the actual implementation. I think we're waiting for ACO reimbursement guidance and such before moving forward hospital side. Bonus for community is the reduction of the doughnut hole + aging population = increased utilization.

But basically, a law passing is nothing...the devil is going to be in the details (regulations) and that will determine money...money to hire pharmacists.
 
When people say "we'll see what happens with Obamacare" what are they waiting for in particular? The bill has actions going out all the way into 2018 and beyond. So in 3 years, during 2014, there will be some changes in insurance but there will be in the following years as well. What year are you going to accept as a standard for Obamacare where another change isn't coming a year or two later?

I'm only curious. I hear this alot and *some* people (not saying you) think it's going to clear up in a year or two and that's it.

Unfortunately I don't think anyone knows yet what is going to happen with obamacare yet as they continue to fight it out in the house and president says he has veto power blah blah blah. We were supposed to see some changes starting 2014 but who knows if that will happen since we have a presidential election in between. I see 2 sides. More insured = more scripts to be filled, but government reimbursement rates can blow which would make us do more work for little extra profits which wouldn't allow companies to hire many additional 120 k pharmacists.
 
The obamacare, as I partly understand so far (for pharmacies), is supposed to increase prescription/script & patient volumes...if it goes into full effect/implementation. And maybe expand the MTM, which is somehow suppose to be beneficial to independents...more likely if it pays more than what it pays now.

What I've never been sure is when exactly the implementation will fully take place.


Anyway, back to the original point of this thread; it's still a :thumbdown:

Btw, I need a signed autograph from you, Celticspride:D:thumbup:
 
It would be interesting to get some numbers on this from currently practicing pharmacists. I'd like to see a poll stated the following

1. Does school you attended help you get a job in retail pharmacy in this current job market, assuming all other factors are somewhat equal?
a. Yes
b. No

2. Did you attend a top 40 Pharmacy school as based on the latest standings from US News and World report: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...raduate-schools/top-pharmacy-schools/rankings

a. Yes
b. No

I'm a newbie and don't know how to do polls!+pissed+



1. Yes, especially in this economic climate, it also helps IMO the more projects, clinical proficiencies, higher gpa, etc that you can put on your CV; particularly for institutional positions
2. Yes
 
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=Electrode;10479563]The obamacare, as I partly understand so far (for pharmacies), is supposed to increase prescription/script & patient volumes...if it goes into full effect/implementation. And maybe expand the MTM, which is somehow suppose to be beneficial to independents...more likely if it pays more than what it pays now.

That's correct we are expecting an increase in script count and mtm, but everyone isn't excited yet because they aren't sure of reimbursement rates which is part of why the republicans seem to be challenging it bc they say we can't pay for obamacare.

What I've never been sure is when exactly the implementation will fully take place.
no one can say just yet, only estimates


Anyway, back to the original point of this thread; it's still a :thumbdown:

Btw, I need a signed autograph from you, Celticspride:D:thumbup:

Yeah me too. Can you autograph my D'Youville new era hat?:laugh:
 
That's correct we are expecting an increase in script count and mtm, but everyone isn't excited yet because they aren't sure of reimbursement rates which is part of why the republicans seem to be challenging it bc they say we can't pay for obamacare.

no one can say just yet, only estimates




Yeah me too. Can you autograph my D'Youville new era hat?:laugh:

ding ding ding! the reimbursement rates will most likely decrease and what does this mean for pharmacies? more volume to cover the same costs (and to make the same profit) meaning more work for pharmacists at the same/less pay.

and that D'Youville new era comment is terrible but it did crack me up!
 
No autograph? :wtf:

It's comments like yours that just furthur reinforce my feeling that newer pharmacy schools are not a bad idea at all. Wise remarks and poking fun yet again at D'Youville, you might as well join the bandwagon. Hey, who knows, maybe one day you'll be working with an intern from D'Youville or one of the newer pharmacy schools and they could help you out. :rolleyes:
 
It's comments like yours that just furthur reinforce my feeling that newer pharmacy schools are not a bad idea at all. Wise remarks and poking fun yet again at D'Youville, you might as well join the bandwagon. Hey, who knows, maybe one day you'll be working with an intern from D'Youville or one of the newer pharmacy schools and they could help you out. :rolleyes:

What are you thinking?!? :slap:
 
I just don't understand why people think that pharmacy is different from any other profession out there. Perhaps this post would be better suited for the "do school rankings matter" thread but whatever. If you got a business degree from Yale versus ITT (where the program is dual degree! OMG!) I think that most people would agree that the Yale student would have the upper hand as far as employment. Why do people think pharmacy is different? If a supervisor is looking at candidates from D'Yahooville versus someone from an established well respected school, who do you think would be chosen? (yes, I understand that there can be a ton of other factors but we're just looking at schools) I personally would choose the candidate from the school that was harder to get in and I know has a great reputation. I don't want someone who went to a pharmacy school where students get in that went to a community college for a few semesters and barely passed their pre-reqs and didn't score much higher than a chimp would on the PCAT. The employer does not really get to know a person before the interview except for what they obtain from a resume/CV. Just like with almost every other job out there, grades matter and so does the school you attended (this is especially true with the saturated market thanks to all these new schools). High supply, low demand (regardless what these deans of the new schools are telling you), you better have something to separate you from the rest.

quick edit:
I know that some people end up going to these schools that could get into other schools; I'm talking about the majority.
 
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It's comments like yours that just furthur reinforce my feeling that newer pharmacy schools are not a bad idea at all. :rolleyes:

give my three reasons why opening D'Youville pharmacy in one of the most saturated regions of the country is a good idea.
 
give my three reasons why opening D'Youville pharmacy in one of the most saturated regions of the country is a good idea.


I personally am an individual who thinks that it is great to see more and more individuals wanting to get into the field of pharmacy. Yes, I have read the reports on "oversaturation" of the job market, I am not blind. To me however it comes down to pure optimism and long term outlook. Call me silly but I feel that pharmacists will always be needed, and with the increase in pharmacist, there will be more job fields that a person with a PharmD can puruse. I have always been a firm believer that just because you grad. and become licensed to practice pharmacy does not mean that you just pop into a pharmacy or hospital and say okay my education is done and this is where I am to be for the rest of my life.

These newer schools provide opportunity that some of the more established professions may not. I will be the first to admit that a more established school that has a great reputation would be of harder nature to be accepted into then one that is newly open. 100 percent agree. But within that process I feel that there are so many factors that go into such that leave many qualified and capable individuals left out of pursuing their dream of pharmacy. I take Buffalo for example. I had always wanted to apply to UB, felt great about their program, however, the CC I attend does not offer A&P and made it with my life, work, and personal situations impossible to complete upon attending. With that in mind, D'Youville had the pre-reqs that fit what I had taken and it was a perfect opportunity for me to stay close to home, and obtain an education. Another example is many of the schools in the South that I had been looking to apply to did not take community college classes and made it so I was again, not allowed to apply. I don't want it to be taken wrong in the sense that I do not recognize that there are schools that have a level of prestige and are of a higher tier. All I ask in return is to see however that newer pharmacy schools, if opening with honest and progressive intentions, are not harming a market that in my opinion will only increase down the road.

As I said, maybe it is my childhood optimism, but I do not fear the market forever being saturated. Being the field of pharmacy, and a medical field of such, I do truly believe that in time more and more opportunities will be provided to those with a PharmD degree.

The newer schools give more individuals opportunity to achieve their dream of becoming a pharmacist. There are plenty of qualified prospective students that choose to go to a newer school for a variety of reasons. And not everyone who goes to these more prestige schools says "I went to a top 10 school, look at me and look at how much "smarter" I am".

Having worked in a pharmacy for quite a few years, and seeing different pharmacist come and go, I can be the first to say that when a customer comes in the last question out of their mouth is, "So where did you get your degree from?".

It is a topic that stirs up much debate, but in my opinion, if you apply yourself NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO, then it does not matter where you are to get your degree from. A degree is a degree. Many pharmacist who I know have their degree and want nothing more now that they have their job. Just because they attended a top tiered school, does not mean they will have the drive and ambition when out of school.

I feel that individuals on here are pitting against one another saying how these newer schools are bad beacuse they are afraid of competition. Why should ANY of you worry if you are so confident that if a situation arises and are paired up against someone who goes to D'Youville, and you having gone to such and such would have no problem overtaking them?

Uncertain where I will go at this point and time, I can with confidence say before ever reading this thread that opening newer schools made me happy to see that more and more people are wanting to go into a profession that helps others, and has potential to have endless opportunity. Yet again, my reason for wanting to become a pharmacist may be vastly different from the next persons on here. I have always felt that compassion, caring, knowledge, and willingness to help are all factors that go into becoming a pharmacist. In my eyes only one of those factors can be taught, the rest, are in the values within a person.

Whether a top tier school, or a "Diploma Mill", I'll take my chances come the day I am licensed and sit next to someone who is of a higher tier school and are getting ready to go into an interview. For I will have the confidence to make sure the last issue any potential employer is worried about is where I went to school. They rather will see me as a licensed, degree granted indivudal reaching out to do what they have been working for and wanting their entire life.
 
I just don't understand why people think that pharmacy is different from any other profession out there. Perhaps this post would be better suited for the "do school rankings matter" thread but whatever. If you got a business degree from Yale versus ITT (where the program is dual degree! OMG!) I think that most people would agree that the Yale student would have the upper hand as far as employment. Why do people think pharmacy is different? If a supervisor is looking at candidates from D'Yahooville versus someone from an established well respected school, who do you think would be chosen? (yes, I understand that there can be a ton of other factors but we're just looking at schools) I personally would choose the candidate from the school that was harder to get in and I know has a great reputation. I don't want someone who went to a pharmacy school where students get in that went to a community college for a few semesters and barely passed their pre-reqs and didn't score much higher than a chimp would on the PCAT. The employer does not really get to know a person before the interview except for what they obtain from a resume/CV. Just like with almost every other job out there, grades matter and so does the school you attended (this is especially true with the saturated market thanks to all these new schools). High supply, low demand (regardless what these deans of the new schools are telling you), you better have something to separate you from the rest.

quick edit:
I know that some people end up going to these schools that could get into other schools; I'm talking about the majority.

Bingo, hit it on the head. Pharmacy is NOT special, it is subject to the same market forces and ranking impressions like any other program.

Hell, my old old old job, we would discriminate between all the random ROP's and training programs. Some clerks/assistants were better from X program vs. Y.

Now, here's the mind blowing part....school quality is wholly independent of US News Rankings or the age of the program. Just because a school opened in 1492 doesn't make it the best one; just because you go to the #3 school (according to a guy in a suit with a hard on for how much your alumni gave last year) in the country doesn't make 100% of their grads Supreme Gods of the Pharmacy Universe that we must bow down to.
 
Most dentists don't take medicaid anyways....I have been to a few that don't take any insurance. Which is fine with me b/c I have none! lol...

Some pharmacies don't either - it's all cash and carry - and there are doctors who don't either. These are most likely walk-in clinics or psychiatrists, although in all these cases, they will give you all the paperwork needed to file your own claim for reimbursement. If you are an independent practitioner, you can run your business however you like.

When I lived in another city of 300,000, the newspaper launched an investigation concerning why so few dentists took Medicaid. Hoo boy, did they come out of the woodwork! In addition to this city being on a state border and one state's Medicaid being notorious for being as much as a year behind, these dentists were very explicit as to why they did not take Medicaid, and were willing to use their names.

The main reasons:

1. They do not show up for their appointments, nor do they call to cancel, but they always have the means to go to their hair and nail appointments, not to mention an amusement park that is 3 hours away and costs $30 a person to get into.

2. It's not unusual for the children to be so disruptive, and adult patients so abusive to the staff, that they had to call the police. They DID NOT see this with any other population.

They really hated to have to do this, because they knew a lot of Medicaid clients are people like my grandmother who was on it because her only income was Social Security, or families who saw a big drop in their income due to job loss, divorce, widowhood, disability, etc.

I worked in retail with pharmacists who did things like tell Medicaid patients that it would be an hour even if it wasn't busy, and I have reason to believe that one of them was spitting or urinating in their liquid meds. :mad:
 
I personally am an individual who thinks that it is great to see more and more individuals wanting to get into the field of pharmacy. Yes, I have read the reports on "oversaturation" of the job market, I am not blind. To me however it comes down to pure optimism and long term outlook. Call me silly but I feel that pharmacists will always be needed, and with the increase in pharmacist, there will be more job fields that a person with a PharmD can puruse. I have always been a firm believer that just because you grad. and become licensed to practice pharmacy does not mean that you just pop into a pharmacy or hospital and say okay my education is done and this is where I am to be for the rest of my life.

These newer schools provide opportunity that some of the more established professions may not. I will be the first to admit that a more established school that has a great reputation would be of harder nature to be accepted into then one that is newly open. 100 percent agree. But within that process I feel that there are so many factors that go into such that leave many qualified and capable individuals left out of pursuing their dream of pharmacy. I take Buffalo for example. I had always wanted to apply to UB, felt great about their program, however, the CC I attend does not offer A&P and made it with my life, work, and personal situations impossible to complete upon attending. With that in mind, D'Youville had the pre-reqs that fit what I had taken and it was a perfect opportunity for me to stay close to home, and obtain an education. Another example is many of the schools in the South that I had been looking to apply to did not take community college classes and made it so I was again, not allowed to apply. I don't want it to be taken wrong in the sense that I do not recognize that there are schools that have a level of prestige and are of a higher tier. All I ask in return is to see however that newer pharmacy schools, if opening with honest and progressive intentions, are not harming a market that in my opinion will only increase down the road.

As I said, maybe it is my childhood optimism, but I do not fear the market forever being saturated. Being the field of pharmacy, and a medical field of such, I do truly believe that in time more and more opportunities will be provided to those with a PharmD degree.

The newer schools give more individuals opportunity to achieve their dream of becoming a pharmacist. There are plenty of qualified prospective students that choose to go to a newer school for a variety of reasons. And not everyone who goes to these more prestige schools says "I went to a top 10 school, look at me and look at how much "smarter" I am".

Having worked in a pharmacy for quite a few years, and seeing different pharmacist come and go, I can be the first to say that when a customer comes in the last question out of their mouth is, "So where did you get your degree from?".

It is a topic that stirs up much debate, but in my opinion, if you apply yourself NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO, then it does not matter where you are to get your degree from. A degree is a degree. Many pharmacist who I know have their degree and want nothing more now that they have their job. Just because they attended a top tiered school, does not mean they will have the drive and ambition when out of school.

I feel that individuals on here are pitting against one another saying how these newer schools are bad beacuse they are afraid of competition. Why should ANY of you worry if you are so confident that if a situation arises and are paired up against someone who goes to D'Youville, and you having gone to such and such would have no problem overtaking them?

Uncertain where I will go at this point and time, I can with confidence say before ever reading this thread that opening newer schools made me happy to see that more and more people are wanting to go into a profession that helps others, and has potential to have endless opportunity. Yet again, my reason for wanting to become a pharmacist may be vastly different from the next persons on here. I have always felt that compassion, caring, knowledge, and willingness to help are all factors that go into becoming a pharmacist. In my eyes only one of those factors can be taught, the rest, are in the values within a person.

Whether a top tier school, or a "Diploma Mill", I'll take my chances come the day I am licensed and sit next to someone who is of a higher tier school and are getting ready to go into an interview. For I will have the confidence to make sure the last issue any potential employer is worried about is where I went to school. They rather will see me as a licensed, degree granted indivudal reaching out to do what they have been working for and wanting their entire life.

Your views are skewed and way off track from the consensus. :slap:
If you lower the quality of the applicant pool i.e. accept community college students, low PCAT, low GPA and basically let any Tom, Dick or Harry into a college of pharmacy, the profession will loose the respect it has worked so hard to earn over the years. I think everyone should just ignore this guy, as there is no helping him.
 
I completely agree that just because you went to the top ranked school that you are not automatically better. The problem with these new schools is they are lowering the standards to become a pharmacist. Celticspride mentioned these new schools are giving people the opportunity to become pharmacists that would not have normally been able to before these new schools came with these lower standards. No offense, but I wouldn't want to be talking to a surgeon and hear him/her say "well there's no way I would have gotten into med school before, but they opened all these new schools and now anyone can be an MD just because they want to!" There's reasons that not everyone should be allowed to be a physician just like not everyone should be a pharmacist, regardless of your hopes and dreams. If you're not smart enough, then you should not be allowed to become a physician, pharmacist, nurse, or whatever, even if you really, really, really want to be. Once again, like I said, it's lowering the standards of the profession. I can't wait to see the first TV commercial for an online pharmacy school where grades don't matter for admission as long as you want to be a pharmacist really bad...
 
Your views are skewed and way off track from the consensus. :slap:
If you lower the quality of the applicant pool i.e. accept community college students, low PCAT, low GPA and basically let any Tom, Dick or Harry into a college of pharmacy, the profession will loose the respect it has worked so hard to earn over the years. I think everyone should just ignore this guy, as there is no helping him.

I did most of my pre-pharmacy at a community college. This CC had a chemistry instructor whose was tough, but you learned a lot and there were people who took chemistry from him rather than use the inferior professors at the 4-year schools in the area - one of which has a COP.

One of my classmates asked him why he didn't teach at a university, and he said it was because if he did that, he would have to do research, mentor graduate students, etc. and he didn't want to do that even though he could probably have doubled his salary by going that route.
 
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I personally am an individual who thinks that it is great to see more and more individuals wanting to get into the field of pharmacy. Yes, I have read the reports on "oversaturation" of the job market, I am not blind. To me however it comes down to pure optimism and long term outlook. Call me silly but I feel that pharmacists will always be needed, and with the increase in pharmacist, there will be more job fields that a person with a PharmD can puruse. I have always been a firm believer that just because you grad. and become licensed to practice pharmacy does not mean that you just pop into a pharmacy or hospital and say okay my education is done and this is where I am to be for the rest of my life.

These newer schools provide opportunity that some of the more established professions may not. I will be the first to admit that a more established school that has a great reputation would be of harder nature to be accepted into then one that is newly open. 100 percent agree. But within that process I feel that there are so many factors that go into such that leave many qualified and capable individuals left out of pursuing their dream of pharmacy. I take Buffalo for example. I had always wanted to apply to UB, felt great about their program, however, the CC I attend does not offer A&P and made it with my life, work, and personal situations impossible to complete upon attending. With that in mind, D'Youville had the pre-reqs that fit what I had taken and it was a perfect opportunity for me to stay close to home, and obtain an education. Another example is many of the schools in the South that I had been looking to apply to did not take community college classes and made it so I was again, not allowed to apply. I don't want it to be taken wrong in the sense that I do not recognize that there are schools that have a level of prestige and are of a higher tier. All I ask in return is to see however that newer pharmacy schools, if opening with honest and progressive intentions, are not harming a market that in my opinion will only increase down the road.

As I said, maybe it is my childhood optimism, but I do not fear the market forever being saturated. Being the field of pharmacy, and a medical field of such, I do truly believe that in time more and more opportunities will be provided to those with a PharmD degree.

The newer schools give more individuals opportunity to achieve their dream of becoming a pharmacist. There are plenty of qualified prospective students that choose to go to a newer school for a variety of reasons. And not everyone who goes to these more prestige schools says "I went to a top 10 school, look at me and look at how much "smarter" I am".

Having worked in a pharmacy for quite a few years, and seeing different pharmacist come and go, I can be the first to say that when a customer comes in the last question out of their mouth is, "So where did you get your degree from?".

It is a topic that stirs up much debate, but in my opinion, if you apply yourself NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO, then it does not matter where you are to get your degree from. A degree is a degree. Many pharmacist who I know have their degree and want nothing more now that they have their job. Just because they attended a top tiered school, does not mean they will have the drive and ambition when out of school.

I feel that individuals on here are pitting against one another saying how these newer schools are bad beacuse they are afraid of competition. Why should ANY of you worry if you are so confident that if a situation arises and are paired up against someone who goes to D'Youville, and you having gone to such and such would have no problem overtaking them?

Uncertain where I will go at this point and time, I can with confidence say before ever reading this thread that opening newer schools made me happy to see that more and more people are wanting to go into a profession that helps others, and has potential to have endless opportunity. Yet again, my reason for wanting to become a pharmacist may be vastly different from the next persons on here. I have always felt that compassion, caring, knowledge, and willingness to help are all factors that go into becoming a pharmacist. In my eyes only one of those factors can be taught, the rest, are in the values within a person.

Whether a top tier school, or a "Diploma Mill", I'll take my chances come the day I am licensed and sit next to someone who is of a higher tier school and are getting ready to go into an interview. For I will have the confidence to make sure the last issue any potential employer is worried about is where I went to school. They rather will see me as a licensed, degree granted indivudal reaching out to do what they have been working for and wanting their entire life.

I agree that people have a lot of circumstances that affect where they go to school like money, family ties, etc. Most people, like you mentioned, are upset because there are a number of new schools opening that are flooding the field with professionals. If your school opened up and there was half as many schools, people would be less likely to complain because there was still a control on the flow of pharmacists.

So here is a comment to pose going with that. This isn't intending to take a side but more of a way to show how things could have played out differently. This is what I would imaging happening in response to the economy going down and people flocking to healthcare like a life raft as they are currently, so this situation is purely hypothetical. Let's say that the last 20 schools opened didn't open and there are no more schools about to be opened. Instead, all of the current schools suddenly increased their class sizes proportionally so that the same number of students are being generated as they are outside of the hypothetical situation. I believe the same kind of students will still be accepted either way because schools have to fill seats.

What would be even worse is some of these schools have ridiculous requirements for some students because of their situation (calculus-based physics 1 and 2, biochem which isn't at all schools, having a bacheors degree first which aren't offered at all community colleges, A&P 1 and 2, etc.) As a result, some students who were able to go to school before because of passing requirements aren't able to go now because they can't go to a university and complete additional requirements or there isn't a closer school for them to go to and maintain their obligations. And then the pharmacy schools with the harder/stricter requirements would probably lower their requirements to meet the general requirements of other schools, thus lowering their standards in the eyes of some people. So now with the logic used by people on the forum, instead of having good and bad schools, like people think there are now, we just have larger schools with more students who are more "mediocre." Sounds like a win-win to me...

Heck, with a sudden uprise in admissions I would say schools would be accepting similar students to what people are saying go to the diploma mills because they are still competent students who managed to pass set curriculum requirements. They care about the caliber of students they accept but they care even more about getting all of the tuition and slots filled.

Just a little food for thought. And a newer school usually has lower requirements than others. I'm sure that Ivy League took a while to get its name while Chapel Hill didn't become a "top 10" the first year it opened its pharmacy program. Other schools have had issues and have actually dropped in their status as well, so the perceived quality of a school can easily change. I'm saying that name does matter but a school that is new with lower requirements to get established isn't the same as a school that has lost accreditation due to putting out a failing class or not complying with other standards.
 
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I did most of my pre-pharmacy at a community college. This CC had a chemistry instructor whose was tough, but you learned a lot and there were people who took chemistry from him rather than use the inferior professors at the 4-year schools in the area - one of which has a COP.

One of my classmates asked him why he didn't teach at a university, and he said it was because if he did that, he would have to do research, mentor graduate students, etc. and he didn't want to do that.

I have a teacher like that at my university. The best bio teacher I have ever had and he doesn't want to do research. The only way he got out of that was by doing a lot of administration and program development that other teachers needed but didn't want to do. The university has a lot of pressure for teachers to research and pull money in while pressuring researchers to teach to get resources for their project. As a result you get some people who don't want to teach and others who want to teach but are stressed out because of some research pressure from the school.

Doesn't research and grant money pulled into the school affect your ability to get tenure?
 
Your views are skewed and way off track from the consensus. :slap:
If you lower the quality of the applicant pool i.e. accept community college students, low PCAT, low GPA and basically let any Tom, Dick or Harry into a college of pharmacy, the profession will loose the respect it has worked so hard to earn over the years. I think everyone should just ignore this guy, as there is no helping him.

Accepting CC students does not lower the pool? And whoever said anything about low GPA and low PCAT?

You last comment was classic however. You say you think everyone should ignore this guy? How do you think I feel? There are not many people on here that are on the same side as me, yet you don't see me saying ignore this and that person. If you can't be open to anothers perspective then I dont think you should comment at all.

I wouldn't say I need help, when all I am trying to do is instead of making this a BOO NEW SCHOOLS thread, is bring light to the other end of the spectrum. Like it or not, it exists, not everyone agrees with what the as you said, "consensus". And adding little emoticons that depict me? Ha, God I hope I never am old and in need of help at a pharmacy and look up and have to have you on the other end. You'd be surprised how close individuals actions on messages boards are with their lifestlye. Wish you the best of luck. I am sure you will make a smart and highly educated pharmacist, but open minded.. forget it.
 
Your views are skewed and way off track from the consensus. :slap:
If you lower the quality of the applicant pool i.e. accept community college students, low PCAT, low GPA and basically let any Tom, Dick or Harry into a college of pharmacy, the profession will loose the respect it has worked so hard to earn over the years. I think everyone should just ignore this guy, as there is no helping him.

He may be naive and misguided, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say there's any true consensus on this topic. I disagree with him as well, but I'm not sure why you feel like mocking him is worthwhile. Civil debate, anybody?
 
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