Oh no, not another URM thread

[Tottil]

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I very rarely feel compelled to participate in any sort of SDN debates. But my God I just read all three pages of this thread and couldn't help myself.

Bastarr88 has an absolutely valid question, and several of you have, I believe, adequately answered it.

Now, for those of you calling Meerkatology a racist simply because his counter arguments trump your cliche stance on URM's, shame on you.

Have you ever seen or talked with an actual racist? These people HATE because of someones color. They directly cause HARM to another because of their color. They work day in and day out, to HATE.

Meerkat is not a racist based on what he/she has posted. What he/she is doing is playing your game with different words. All he/she did was replace Hispanic with Asian, and you called him/her racist. Strange, isn't it? I don't blame you for doing it, simply because this is how our society has presented the subject. It is easy to regurgitate what is considered popular wisdom, and if someone disagrees call them a "scapegoat" term because noone likes to be called "that". It is difficult, however, to understand why popular wisdom isn't necessarily 100% correct - this is exactly what Meerkat is pointing out.

People are bound to disagree on certain things. I certainly don't agree with everything Meerkat said, but I believe it is an absolute travesty that people would look at his/her argument and call him/her a racist. Racists work hard to HATE, but judging from Meerkat's posts, he/she is trying to present a valid argument to which the "RACIST!!!" shouters have yet to address.

 

[HealthHare]

1st of all the recent argument was hispanics vs asians when it comes to affirmative action. but let me make an analogy to your analogy there.

a white guy finds an AK47 on the ground, he walks on the street and shoots 10 black guys.

putting the white guy in jail so he can't do any more harm, that is justice

giving the AK47 to a black guy and having him shoot 10 white guys.... is not justice


racial discrimination is inherently wrong. you don't make up for past discrimination with reverse discrimination. you make it up by ensuring equality.


edit: somewhat misread your post, if you want to give twin A one present and give twin B two presents that would require 3 total presents... that would work in an ideal world with infinite resources but in the real world when you give an URM a spot, you are taking it away from someone else, its not like you're making more spots in med school...

Too many times people like to make extreme analogies thinking that it will make their point stronger, i.e. If your friend told you to jump off a bridge.

However, when you make analogies like that or ones about AK-47 justice you take away from your point by making it about something completely different.

It becomes more about the morality of killing than affirmative action.

These types of analogies are dangerous because simple minded people always interpret them too literally, spawning misconceptions about ideas and people. The Republicans i.e. Bush, Palin, etc. are masters at this.

My analogy on the other hand was very similar to the challenges of racism.
There was actually a time when it was an acceptable practice to pay a minority a lower wage than a white just like the parents thought it was acceptable to give one of the twins no presents.

 

[Meerkatology]

I very rarely feel compelled to participate in any sort of SDN debates. But my God I just read all three pages of this thread and couldn't help myself.

Bastarr88 has an absolutely valid question, and several of you have, I believe, adequately answered it.

Now, for those of you calling Meerkatology a racist simply because his counter arguments trump your cliche stance on URM's, shame on you.

Have you ever seen or talked with an actual racist? These people HATE because of someones color. They directly cause HARM to another because of their color. They work day in and day out, to HATE.

Meerkat is not a racist based on what he/she has posted. What he/she is doing is playing your game with different words. All he/she did was replace Hispanic with Asian, and you called him/her racist. Strange, isn't it? I don't blame you for doing it, simply because this is how our society has presented the subject. It is easy to regurgitate what is considered popular wisdom, and if someone disagrees call them a "scapegoat" term because noone likes to be called "that". It is difficult, however, to understand why popular wisdom isn't necessarily 100% correct - this is exactly what Meerkat is pointing out.

People are bound to disagree on certain things. I certainly don't agree with everything Meerkat said, but I believe it is an absolute travesty that people would look at his/her argument and call him/her a racist. Racists work hard to HATE, but judging from Meerkat's posts, he/she is trying to present a valid argument to which the "RACIST!!!" shouters have yet to address.

someone actually READ my posts before replying?!?! ...how atypical of sdn.
(wtf how do u past tense)

tottil, marry me nao? i can be either a his/her according to your wishes!



Healthhare: thanks for actually posting an argument instead of an insult, i agree my analogy is pretty extreme, but thats the whole point of analogies, to exaggerate to make a point while still remaining in the realm of reason. I was equating discrimination with killing. both are wrong and unlawful.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

Yeah, did the people who failed out of Caribbean med schools do so because they were single parents? Or was it because they were less qualified? I am so confused. 😕

Individuals who fail out of Caribbean schools might not have belong there in the first place. Many students do great there -- but some shouldn't have been accepted in the first place. Caribbean schools are for-profit and will take everyone and not care if you succeed. US med schools do care about your success and will work hard to try to make sure you don't fail (for the most part -- and this is why I classified US med only -- otherwise, why is SDN so against Caribbean schools? I would be there in a heartbeat but I do want a school that is taking me not just for the money.)

meerk -- I never said you shouldn't be in medical school. I said that as I am someone with low numbers, maybe I shouldn't have been accepted into medical school since you seem to be all number driven (as you are upset URMs with lower stats sit next to you at school)

additionally, I still think black students from higher-class areas due deserve a leg up due to historical backgrounds and keeping the medical/college demographics the same as the national demographics. Until they are even, affirmative action and URM status should happen. This is all my opinion though and you don't have to agree. White students from lower class neighborhoods can claim disadvantage status on AMCAS -- just not URM.

edit: regardless Meerk, I still find your original comparison of Asians vs hispanics racist-sounding. You assume all hispanics entering the country are illegal and lower in "socioeconomic status" vs their asian counter-parts (who apparently all come here legally -- which is not true.). Many Asians and Hispanics have been here for generations too... but you just lump them into all recently migrated here. You then make it sound like socioeconomic status = intelligence. Also not true. It just means that you might have access to better resources. To me it just sounds like you have a very limited understanding of race in the US. But your an M4, so you most know everything, so I am sorry for not being able to understand your fine non-racist post.

 

[Meerkatology]

meerk -- I never said you shouldn't be in medical school.

edit: regardless Meerk, I still find your original comparison of Asians vs hispanics racist-sounding. You assume all hispanics entering the country are illegal and lower in "socioeconomic status" vs their asian counter-parts (who apparently all come here legally -- which is not true.). Many Asians and Hispanics have been here for generations too... but you just lump them into all recently migrated here. You then make it sound like socioeconomic status = intelligence. Also not true. It just means that you might have access to better resources. To me it just sounds like you have a very limited understanding of race in the US. But your an M4, so you most know everything, so I am sorry for not being able to understand your fine non-racist post.

1st statement - you clearly were in agreement with bleargh when he said i shouldn't be in med school.

2nd paragraph: you really like to use the word ALL, READ my post again, i never said ALL, i said a *bigger percentage*, and i'm pretty damn positive it is true - i don't know, look it up if don't believe me. for starters, asians have to come by boat 🙂

socioeconomic status has a significant correlation to intelligence, of course it is not 100% or direct, but there is some. if you want to argue otherwise then i really don't know what to say to you.



also, i am not upset that URMs with lower stats sit next to me in school, i am upset that non URMs with higher stats get rejected and have their dreams shattered because the color of their skin wasn't ____.

also failing out of med school mid way is the worst thing that could happen to anyone. what are you gonna do with 100k debt?
reasons aside, statistics show that higher percentage (READ: higher percentage not ALL) of URMs fail out. I actually feel sorry for those that do; they were admitted due to URM status even though their stats would have predicted that they may have difficulty passing.

before you jump the gun again, stats have a correlation to how well you do in med school. not saying you can't do well with lower stats, but the there's a reason why adcoms don't want to admit people with 2.0 gpas and 20 mcats... it isn't just because of competition, its also because they think theres a higher chance they will fail out.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

1st statement - you clearly were in agreement with bleargh when he said i shouldn't be in med school.

2nd paragraph: you really like to use the word ALL, READ my post again, i never said ALL, i said a *bigger percentage*, and i'm pretty damn positive it is true - i don't know, look it up if don't believe me. for starters, asians have to come by boat 🙂

socioeconomic status has a significant correlation to intelligence, of course it is not 100% or direct, but there is some. if you want to argue otherwise then i really don't know what to say to you.

I've known sveral asians who's parents brought came here via a travel visa and just stayed. No green card or anything. Several have been deported (particularly if you are muslim/middle eastern). My neighborhood got particularly upset when a 18 year was sent back to his home country, even though he didn't speak the language and had been here since his was 2. But no, asians can come here illegally. Maybe not as many as hispanics, but the way I interpreted your statement is that MOST hispanics (aka mexicans?) due... but it's just as hard to get to the US as a hispanic lower than the mexican boarder as an asian (whether legally or illegally)

I would argue against socioeconomics and intelligence. but that's my opinion... and why I am happy that their is public schools and free tutoring and programs and scholarships to attend private high schools provided to disadvantaged youths. Once again though, a fundamental change is needed in communities that don't value education, which is why we need URMs in medical schools... whether showing their own personal communities that you can be successful via education, or just being a role model to underserved areas (even if you never step into them)

We seem to see affirmative action and URM status differently though, so I will leave you at that. Good luck with applying to your residencies.

also, i am not upset that URMs with lower stats sit next to me in school, i am upset that non URMs with higher stats get rejected and have their dreams shattered because the color of their skin wasn't ____.

Those students need to just need to reapply. You don't need high stats to get into medical school. Your skin color doesn't need to be (blank) to get in with lower stats. I find it better to have a diverse student population than to have a school with only all high stat applicant students only -- and knowing some of the 4.0 students I known, talk about awkward social fest. haha. though I do love those 4.0 genius, but to be 100% surrounded by them. ahh.

also failing out of med school mid way is the worst thing that could happen to anyone. what are you gonna do with 100k debt?
reasons aside, statistics show that higher percentage (READ: higher percentage not ALL) of URMs fail out. I actually feel sorry for those that do.

Which is why I don't recommend the Caribbean route because you won't get the support needed to not fail out after 2-years. I can't seem to find this data -- so could you please support this


I also stated above what I consider good stats to do well in medical school. A school should be sued for accepting someone with a 2.0/20 that ends up failing out. They should do it only if they have good reason.

Anyways -- interesting article to read: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/720541
"under-represented minority college graduates apply to medical school at an even higher rate than do white college graduates (about 28 per 1000 vs 24 per 1000)" So there are plenty of URMs to pick from so they don't have to have a 2.0GPA.

 

[Bernoull]

credit: some guy..

 

[Meerkatology]

I've known sveral asians who's parents brought came here via a travel visa and just stayed. No green card or anything. Several have been deported (particularly if you are muslim/middle eastern). My neighborhood got particularly upset when a 18 year was sent back to his home country, even though he didn't speak the language and had been here since his was 2. But no, asians can come here illegally. Maybe not as many as hispanics, but the way I interpreted your statement is that MOST hispanics (aka mexicans?) due... but it's just as hard to get to the US as a hispanic lower than the mexican boarder as an asian (whether legally or illegally)

going into personal experiences or case by case scenerios doesn't work in arguments. also, i won't go into details about how illegal immigrants get here, the fact of the matter is that a bigger percentage of hispanics are illegal immigrants as compared to that of asians. and no i did not say MOST hispanics are illegal immigrants, the word BIGGER was comparing with the asian percentage.

I would argue against socioeconomics and intelligence. but that's my opinion... and why I am happy that their is public schools and free tutoring and programs and scholarships to attend private high schools provided to disadvantaged youths. Once again though, a fundamental change is needed in communities that don't value education, which is why we need URMs in medical schools... whether showing their own personal communities that you can be successful via education, or just being a role model to underserved areas (even if you never step into them)

I agree this is a good thing to do, just like giving food to starving kids in africa or giving healthcare to poor people who can't afford insurance. this is called benevolence.

but in a world with limited resources, i.e the real world, justice would have to come before benevolence. and justice means giving highly desireable resources, i.e. seats in med school to the most deserving people, i.e. those with the best applications.

i agree something should be done to help underprivileged communities, but this should be done through financial help , building more schools etc, encouraging education, rather than free rides to med school admissions. (b4 i get flamed, RELATIVE free rides)
my belief anyway.

Good luck with applying to your residencies.

ty.

 

[Remuneration]

Meerkatology, stop posting. Your naivete has long since crossed the border from cute to embarrassing.

 

[Meerkatology]

Meerkatology, stop posting. Your naivete has long since crossed the border from cute to embarrassing.

you're right, trying to reason in the pre-allo forum really is quite naivete. especially about a sensitive topic that so many are quick to get butthurt and eager to resort to personal insults.

at least kept me entertained for a while, last post in this thread now, for real 🙂

 

[MCAT guy]

Meerkatology,

Whether right or wrong, you come off insecure and you constantly seek validation via your current status. Secure people don't seek validation from their position. (Think: Bill Gates doesn't go around telling people how much $ he has in his bank account). If you got it, you don't have to tell everyone.

Look how many times you've had to prove yourself or compare yourself to others in this thread:

you're right, trying to reason in the pre-allo forum really is quite naivete.

Look at me, I'm not pre-med.

maybe if you got accepted through fair competition like the rest of us you wouldn't be so insecure? or do you even have an admission yet?

Look at me, I'm accepted through fair competition.

translation: some people in this world can actually learn their 2nd or 3rd language better than you can learn your 1st. get it? you are actually not that smart!

Look at me, I speak my language much well thx very good.

but hey, whoever says i'm not qualified to be in med school, i almost cared about your opinion....

then i realized you were a pre-med.

But, do come back when you become the PD of the residency i'm applying to. perhaps i can buy you coffee then?

Look at me, I applying to residency and am not pre-med.

yes i am in a US med school.

no english is not my 1st language, it is my 3rd.

yes i still scored higher on verbal than you ... and everything else.

Look at me, I am in US med school.

Look at me, I score higher on verbal and all else.

Also, btw, Bleargh had like 15 in each of the sciences. Did you score higher than 15?
______________________


@Avoidthetiger: You got into medical school because you're awesome.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

@Avoidthetiger: You got into medical school because you're awesome.

Thanks! 🙂 I'm also thrilled to be SDN dating a doctor. 😀😍

additionally -- i may bring up personal stories, but I view that the same as saying something without citing anything.

From NPR: "Illegal immigrants arriving in recent years tend to be better educated than those who have been in the country a decade or more. A quarter of all immigrants who have arrived in recent years have at least some college education. Nonetheless, illegal immigrants as a group tend to be less educated than other sections of the U.S. population: 49 percent haven't completed high school, compared with 9 percent of native-born Americans and 25 percent of legal immigrants."

basically, not all illegals are dummies.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4703307

6% of all asians in the country are here illegally (via the NPR numbers and the assumption that there is 14.9 million people that report themselves as having either full or partial asian heritage -- wikipedia)
17% of hispanics are here illegally (via NPR and 48.4 million[July 2009 numbers])

also worth the read (but not 100% credible) regarding the asian illegal immigration issue being forgotten about:
http://www.boulderweekly.com/articl...seek-to-gain-voice-in-immigration-debate.html

 

[MCAT guy]

Thanks! 🙂 I'm also thrilled to be SDN dating a doctor.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

1st of all the recent argument was hispanics vs asians when it comes to affirmative action. but let me make an analogy to your analogy there.

a white guy finds an AK47 on the ground, he walks on the street and shoots 10 black guys.

putting the white guy in jail so he can't do any more harm, that is justice

giving the AK47 to a black guy and having him shoot 10 white guys.... is not justice


racial discrimination is inherently wrong. you don't make up for past discrimination with reverse discrimination. you make it up by ensuring equality.

edit: somewhat misread your post, if you want to give twin A one present and give twin B two presents that would require 3 total presents... that would work in an ideal world with infinite resources but in the real world when you give an URM a spot, you are taking it away from someone else, its not like you're making more spots in med school...

Your analogy makes no f&$^ing sense and the fact that you try to use it to justify your claims makes me concerned about your intelligence.Also you are making the claim as if that spot belongs to that person guess what it doesn't. ADCOMs decide who gets what since after all its their spots to give. And in an equal world all groups will have the same shot so it would still be competitive either way.

 

[Wisdomphilia]

To Meekatology:
Stop being such a drama queen.An orm with higher stats will get into a medical school anyway.Also urms admitted with lower stats still have reasonably competitive stats.Its not like they dump the whiteboy with 4.0 for a urm with 2.0.The so-called lower stats are still above a certain minimum.So stfu with ur hypocritical attitude about sombody's dream being shattered because their skin is not whatever.
urm is not about skin color anyway,so why do u even bring the skin issue in the argument.I bet you will claim you are not racist.
I donot know you well but you've shown me you are a whining big baby.Didn't you ever take a history or sociology class?.Discrimination even in its most subtle form still has far-reaching consequences.And urms also experience it in college.If you haven't experienced it,good for you!!.But it doesn't mean it does not exist.In addition to the setbacks that everybody,including urself have when it comes to education.Urms get an additional setback just for being...So that 3.3 would likely have been a 3.6 if they didn't have to deal with the ****,you were lucky not to deal with.
Currently,the playing field is still tilted in the favor of a certain group of people.That is how it has been.The attempt is to try and correct that wrong not by discriminating against others,but by reserving a LITTLE no.of seats for these urms whose stats are not too far off from making them highly competitive.
Does it sound right to you,that a group of people got ahead by holding other people back and now that they need to give a hand,they are like,"I got here by myself,why can't you?".That is how you sound when you talk so disgracefully unintelligent about these things.
To original poster:
Like you said,you got a seat in medical school...no urm took it did they???..So what exactly is your problem???

 

[Cleavername]

this thread is gg lol.

 

[Mbeas]

Look at me, I speak my language much well thx very good.

 

[Stewie32]

this thread is tl;dr.

all these ridculous URMzz!!! threads deserve a:

This is my all-time favorite 'Bed Intruder' reference!

 

[bastar88]

This thread is getting ridiculous, and I started this thread.

One thing I noticed was that those who may disagree with me just mostly swore or threw in these little snide comments about my "ignorance," "stupidity," or "racism." I have not lost my temper once in this thread, despite all these assaults on my personal character. In that aspect alone, you guys really look and sound stupid. Are you sure you are more intelligent or socially-able for that matter than me?

That being said, please say something constructive to your argument. Please, don't sound ******ed any more ...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

This is my all-time favorite 'Bed Intruder' reference!

of all time!

This thread is getting ridiculous, and I started this thread.

One thing I noticed was that those who may disagree with me just mostly swore or threw in these little snide comments about my "ignorance," "stupidity," or "racism." I have not lost my temper once in this thread, despite all these assaults on my personal character. In that aspect alone, you guys really look and sound stupid. Are you sure you are more intelligent or socially-able for that matter than me?

That being said, please say something constructive to your argument. Please, don't sound ******ed any more ...

👎

 

[ModerateMouse]

It's unfortunate how threads like this degrade to personal insults....

It's gotten to the point where I don't even know what some people are actually trying to say, and their points are buried under all the name calling. 🙁

Was Meerkat's original point that a large proportion of immigrants from latin America is not educated/willing to go to school, and that this partially causes their 'underachievement' when it comes to professional education?
Because of this, their lower educational and professional achievement is not just due to favoritism?

Or am I misunderstanding this? I wonder if it is possible to objectively get to the bottom of this...

 

[BrainBuff]

It's unfortunate how threads like this degrade to personal insults....

It's gotten to the point where I don't even know what some people are actually trying to say, and their points are buried under all the name calling. 🙁

Exactly. But the bigger insult is actually the fact that these forums are supposed to be MODERATED. I wonder where the so called "moderators" are...What a joke...

 

[Remuneration]

S/he's more of less arguing that GPA and MCAT are unbiased measures of one's merit with regard to their capacity to suceed in medical school and later on in residency and practice. Based on that assumption they argue that medical school slots should be filled on a 'meritocratic' basis (i.e. disregarding race/socioeconomic status).

S/he then attempts to morally justify their position by claiming that they are in favor of other, ambigiously defined measures to improve education, etc, among minorities, excepting the weighting of their medical school applications.

So basically, s/he argues a bunch of nonsense that ignores sociology, psychology, and history to justify the massive underrepresentation of these groups in medicine.

Nevermind the fact that these idiotic threads have been done to death, that most SDN posters are utterly ignorant of the complexity of challenges faced by minority students, and that the rest are tired of fruitlessly explaining the problem.

 

[Cleavername]

This is probably the best analogy for why Affirmative Action is fair:

Imagine that a couple has twins.

One is blonde, one has black hair

The parents like twin 1 more than twin 2 because they always wanted a kid with blonde hair

For the first ten birthdays of their lives twin 1 receives a present while twin 2 does not.

Finally on their 11th birthday, the parents realize that what they have been doing is wrong and decide from now on to give twin 2 two presents while still giving twin 1 one each year.

Question:
Should twin 1 suddenly become bitter that he is receiving less presents even though his brother never received one?

Should he cry reverse hairism?

Should we totally disregard what 10 years of gross favoritism in a child's life could have on his self-esteem?

I'm not saying that if twin 2 starts misbehaving and doesn't do well in school that his parents don't have the right to limit his amount of presents.

However if he is making good grades and being a good kid doesn't he deserve what should have always been his?

good questions, but where do u draw the line and stop giving special treatments, and say to the kid who has been mistreated, that enough is enough. better yet who get to decide that?

this is kind of like a situation of one kid bullies another kid. the victim did get hurt, i know that. but as a responsible parent, are u really going to say to the victim, well, hit the bully back, its only fair. prob not right? because u know with some amounts of reasoning that this will lead to revenge, and that one of these kids is always going to feel unfair since it feels like the other kid hit you harder.

the asian population in this country is pretty small, there is obivousely not many of them who can make big decisions about the admission process. but i feel as future approaches, as they grasp more power, become more influential, this whole ORM/URM thing might be tuned down a bit. but then again, if this doest happens before china or india, makes world superpower, if not #1, i doubt ur average aspire to be a physician asian (mostly south/east asian) is going to stay here and take this treatment for too long.

i have read over and over again what i wrote in the previous paragraph, and i am not taking it back. atleast not unless some one threatens to ban me lol. free speech baby.

 

[LizzyM]

the asian population in this country is pretty small, there is obivousely not many of them who can make big decisions about the admission process. but i feel as future approaches, as they grasp more power, become more influential, this whole ORM/URM thing might be tuned down a bit. but then again, if this doest happens before china or india, makes world superpower, if not #1, i doubt ur average aspire to be a physician asian (mostly south/east asian) is going to stay here and take this treatment for too long.

i have read over and over again what i wrote in the previous paragraph, and i am not taking it back. atleast not unless some one threatens to ban me lol. free speech baby.

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-new-enrll-raceeth-sch-2010-web.pdf.pdf

There are just under 80,000 allopathic med students in the US. About 17,300 of them are Asians and < 5,600 are non-Hispanic Black/African-American. Given the proportions of the US population that are black and Asian, does it seem that Asians are getting s.crewed by URMs in this process?

 

[Cleavername]

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-new-enrll-raceeth-sch-2010-web.pdf.pdf

There are just under 80,000 allopathic med students in the US. About 17,300 of them are Asians and < 5,600 are non-Hispanic Black/African-American. Given the proportions of the US population that are black and Asian, does it seem that Asians are getting s.crewed by URMs in this process?

ha sorry LizzyM, ima have to challenge u to this one. just cause they severely outnumber urms, doesn't mean they are not getting screwed. those numbers you just brought up alone is meaningless since i cant tell what is the avg gpa/mcat of those people who do get in med school. also, it does not show what compeptive levels of med school did those people go into (please execuse my english, i kind of suck at grammar).

i am not sure if you can pick up my meaning from what i just said, if not, ill explain further with real world examples that you can understand immediately. but i am pretty sure what i just said is self explanatory.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

It sounds to me like asian students are taking seats from white students... considering the Asians making only 5% of the US demographics but 20% of the medical school demographic.

Black and hispanics make up ~ 30% of the population, and only 7% of the medical school population.

I don't think any group is getting screwed though... but that's just my opinion. ADCOMs choose students that they think will be best for their school and the class.

Here's the GPA/MCAT data you are interested in:
White: https://www.aamc.org/download/157948/data/table25-h-mcatgpa-grid-hisp-0810.pdf.pdf
Asian: https://www.aamc.org/download/157598/data/table25-a-mcatgpa-grid-asian-0810.pdf.pdf
Black: https://www.aamc.org/download/157594/data/table25-b-mcatgpa-grid-black-0810.pdf.pdf
Hispanic: https://www.aamc.org/download/157948/data/table25-h-mcatgpa-grid-hisp-0810.pdf.pdf

 

[LizzyM]

ha sorry LizzyM, ima have to challenge u to this one. just cause they severely outnumber urms, doesn't mean they are not getting screwed. those numbers you just brought up alone is meaningless since i cant tell what is the avg gpa/mcat of those people who do get in med school. also, it does not show what compeptive levels of med school did those people go into (please execuse my english, i kind of suck at grammar).

i am not sure if you can pick up my meaning from what i just said, if not, ill explain further with real world examples that you can understand immediately. but i am pretty sure what i just said is self explanatory.

Look at the link. It shows enrollment for every allopathic school in the US broken out by race & ethnicity. Let's say that there is a minimum gpa and MCAT that demonstrates the intellectual gifts and study skills to be successful in medical school. Anyone above that floor is "qualified". There are far more qualified appliants (by the numbers) that there are seats so things other than numbers including life experiences and personality traits go into the decision making process that makes up med admissions. This isn't a country where we skim off the top scorers on an admission test and call it a day.

 

[musafirah]

this is kind of like a situation of one kid bullies another kid. the victim did get hurt, i know that. but as a responsible parent, are u really going to say to the victim, well, hit the bully back, its only fair. prob not right? because u know with some amounts of reasoning that this will lead to revenge, and that one of these kids is always going to feel unfair since it feels like the other kid hit you harder.

ok.. but here's the thing.. the 'victimized kid' isn't really hitting anyone back or getting revenge.. he's still (in general) just as disenfranchised as ever. everyone against giving benefit to URM status conveniently ignores the fact that the URM applicant is an overall good student who often had more barriers and obstacles to overcome to attain their level of academic/other success. they go through the same prereqs and take the mcat and have to show why they are entering into medicine. i just think its funny that the argument always goes back to "oh the URM's definitely not as qualified.." blah blah blah. try to support the argument without the
assumption that the URM is unqualified.

on sidenote.. im an ORM who came from an urban (primarily black/hispanic) neighbourhood.. despite not being black or hispanic the adcoms took interest in my disadvantaged status. if you came from a disadvantaged background and youre white or ORM just write about it. someone will notice. and stop bitching geez. yeah there's other ways to be diverse.. but being able to recognise URM as one of those ways is not necessarily a bad thing or reverse racism or any of that. it's just one tiny step forward in accepting different groups of people for a part of what makes them who they are and bridging some really shameful gaps in american priveleges and opportunities and whatnot. and yes its not just about disadvantages but there's a place for THAT too in admissions. k?

 

[Remuneration]

GPA and MCAT are not unbiased measures of merit.
GPA and MCAT are NOT unbiased measures of merit.
GPA and MCAT are NOT unbiased measures of merit.

 

[Remuneration]

P.S.: GPA and MCAT are not unbiased measures of merit.

 

[Techmed07]

It sounds to me like asian students are taking seats from white students... considering the Asians making only 5% of the US demographics but 20% of the medical school demographic.

Black and hispanics make up ~ 30% of the population, and only 7% of the medical school population.

I don't think any group is getting screwed though... but that's just my opinion. ADCOMs choose students that they think will be best for their school and the class.

Here's the GPA/MCAT data you are interested in:
White: https://www.aamc.org/download/157948/data/table25-h-mcatgpa-grid-hisp-0810.pdf.pdf
Asian: https://www.aamc.org/download/157598/data/table25-a-mcatgpa-grid-asian-0810.pdf.pdf
Black: https://www.aamc.org/download/157594/data/table25-b-mcatgpa-grid-black-0810.pdf.pdf
Hispanic: https://www.aamc.org/download/157948/data/table25-h-mcatgpa-grid-hisp-0810.pdf.pdf

Those stats are not correct. It does not take in account Meharry/Howard/Morehouse...nor does it take into account schools in PR! People just see numbers and begin perpetuating the false notion that URM have it easier. You forget that most of those individuals with 3.5 and 33 have amazing life stories...and E.C's that would put anybody to shame. A run of the mil URM with a 3.5 and 33 will not get accepted unless there is something amazing on thier application....Do a mdapplicant search if you do not believe me....

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Those stats are not correct. It does not take in account Meharry/Howard/Morehouse...nor does it take into account schools in PR! People just see numbers and begin perpetuating the false notion that URM have it easier. You forget that most of those individuals with 3.5 and 33 have amazing life stories...and E.C's that would put anybody to shame. A run of the mil URM with a 3.5 and 33 will not get accepted unless there is something amazing on thier application....Do a mdapplicant search if you do not believe me....

lolwhut?

 

[LizzyM]

A run of the mil URM with a 3.5 and 33 will not get accepted unless there is something amazing on thier application....Do a mdapplicant search if you do not believe me....

Well 43 out of 44 have an amazing life story then. 😀

 

[Narmerguy]

ha sorry LizzyM, ima have to challenge u to this one. just cause they severely outnumber urms, doesn't mean they are not getting screwed. those numbers you just brought up alone is meaningless since i cant tell what is the avg gpa/mcat of those people who do get in med school. also, it does not show what compeptive levels of med school did those people go into (please execuse my english, i kind of suck at grammar).

i am not sure if you can pick up my meaning from what i just said, if not, ill explain further with real world examples that you can understand immediately. but i am pretty sure what i just said is self explanatory.

Once again, higher gpa =/= more qualified. Same for MCAT. For the same reasons that some asians get rejected for asians with lower stats, some applicants with higher "stats" are rejected because it is very clearly not the only component of concern for medical schools.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

Those stats are not correct. It does not take in account Meharry/Howard/Morehouse...nor does it take into account schools in PR! People just see numbers and begin perpetuating the false notion that URM have it easier. You forget that most of those individuals with 3.5 and 33 have amazing life stories...and E.C's that would put anybody to shame. A run of the mil URM with a 3.5 and 33 will not get accepted unless there is something amazing on thier application....Do a mdapplicant search if you do not believe me....

wo0t. I must have an amazing life story because I got in with pretty much those stats. sweet. I'm not even a URM.

You are correct though, those stats do include the history-black colleges and PR schools, so individuals should keep that in mind when looking at that data. I just wanted to provide it to cleavername.

 

[Cleavername]

Look at the link. It shows enrollment for every allopathic school in the US broken out by race & ethnicity. Let's say that there is a minimum gpa and MCAT that demonstrates the intellectual gifts and study skills to be successful in medical school. Anyone above that floor is "qualified". There are far more qualified appliants (by the numbers) that there are seats so things other than numbers including life experiences and personality traits go into the decision making process that makes up med admissions. This isn't a country where we skim off the top scorers on an admission test and call it a day.

that link just says what amounts of people get in. i quickly looked at the aamc chart for the avg gpa and mcat of orm vs urm, its a noticable difference of 4 points on mcat and 0.15-0.2 points of gpa difference of those who do get in. this does not say what school accepted them however, and what schools they are applying from, so its kind of pointless to go on arguing this because we do not have all the data. keep in mind that higher ranked colleges tends to be alot harder than your average tier 2 or 3 college.

i will say this tho, i am glad that i only replied to LizzyM's post since hers are atleast reasonable and without all the name calling, unlike the other people who post here lol.

 

[LizzyM]

that link just says what amounts of people get in.

Look at this:
https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-new-enrll-raceeth-sch-2010-web.pdf.pdf

It show the number of active students by race and ethnicity at each school. It doesn't tell you where these peeps went to undergrad or what they scored in school or on the MCAT. However, it does show that Asians outnumber blacks 3 to 1 and at some schools asians outnumber blacks about 8 to 1.

 

[Techmed07]

lolwhut?

lol. I mean accepted to a top school. ..lol

 

[Avoidthetiger]

lol. I mean accepted to a top school. ..lol

haha, I would agree with that then. I rescind my statement about having an amazing life story then. 😛

 

[musafirah]

so wait... you guys are complaining not in particular about URMs getting into med school with slightly lower stats on average.. but that they're getting into "top tier schools"..?


LMAO.

are you worried that all these URMs are going to somehow reduce the quality of education at these coveted top schools (that are oh so much harder than 2 or 3 tier med schools 🙄)?? wow i feel racist just trying to consider the underlying message in this thread..

 

[RogueUnicorn]

so wait... you guys are complaining not in particular about URMs getting into med school with slightly lower stats on average.. but that they're getting into "top tier schools"..?


LMAO.

are you worried that all these URMs are going to somehow reduce the quality of education at these coveted top schools (that are oh so much harder than 2 or 3 tier med schools 🙄)?? wow i feel racist just trying to consider the underlying message in this thread..

why bother with the underlying message when the overt message is "black people go back to ghetto where you belong"

 

[Techmed07]

so wait... you guys are complaining not in particular about URMs getting into med school with slightly lower stats on average.. but that they're getting into "top tier schools"..?


LMAO.

are you worried that all these URMs are going to somehow reduce the quality of education at these coveted top schools (that are oh so much harder than 2 or 3 tier med schools 🙄)?? wow i feel racist just trying to consider the underlying message in this thread..

Yup. If pay close attention to many threads like this. The problem is not that URMs are getting into medical school that grinds peoples gears, its the fact they are getting in top ranked schools. Some individuals on SDN see 95% acceptance rate and fail to take in account the amount of URMs that actually apply (+ PR HBMS ect). In addition checking out the MSAR you see that African Americans actually increased in applicants but decreased in matriculents (down 1.8%).... So its not like these schools do not have some AA to chose from. The URM effect is not as strong as it seems. It just that the individuals that actaully apply have amazing ECs' and life stories... and thus get a shot a top school or a school in general. I would be pressed to say that more whites and asians that come from physcicans that are parents than AA or hispanics. Thus when the majority of applicants come from similar backgrounds it hard to stand out...when the admissions see an individuals who went through something different they take notice...just my 2 cents. I have a pretty high GPA and a good MCAT (my gpa may drop) and I am URM.. but I not going to feed into the hype and apply to only top schools or hope for a scholarship.... I am going to do what any applicant regardless of color should do with my stats apply broadly... and hope for the best.

 

[startswithb]

I have a question: why is there continually the assumption that URMs by and large have "amazing life stories?"

Another question: one example given why disatvantaged students should receive preference in admission is that their educational background was lacking. Well, if they are already gaining admission to top undergraduate colleges based on this, wouldn't that effect diminish now that they have arguably some of the BEST education resources in the world?

 

[bookfreak89]

so wait... you guys are complaining not in particular about URMs getting into med school with slightly lower stats on average.. but that they're getting into "top tier schools"..?

I thought that was the point of all the URM threads.

 

[LizzyM]

I have a question: why is there continually the assumption that URMs by and large have "amazing life stories?"

Another question: one example given why disatvantaged students should receive preference in admission is that their educational background was lacking. Well, if they are already gaining admission to top undergraduate colleges based on this, wouldn't that effect diminish now that they have arguably some of the BEST education resources in the world?

Some come into college poorly prepared both academicly and in study skills due to substandard HS programs. This can contribute to a poor first semester or a poor first year that is then a hole that one needs to get out of. Next we have students, most often poor, and more likely than non-poor students to be students of color, who are expected to work in work to pay for school. Try doing well when you are trying to work 20 hrs wk by picking up the 4 a.m. -8 a.m. shift at the library 5 days a week.

In small classes with subjective grading, do not discount the biases that creep in, the soft bigotry of lower expectations.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I have a question: why is there continually the assumption that URMs by and large have "amazing life stories?"

Another question: one example given why disatvantaged students should receive preference in admission is that their educational background was lacking. Well, if they are already gaining admission to top undergraduate colleges based on this, wouldn't that effect diminish now that they have arguably some of the BEST education resources in the world?

1. For me, when I said that a URM has an amazing life story if they have a 3.5/33 and get into a top 20, that is because ANYONE with a GPA less than a 3.8 or an MCAT less than a 34 probably has something impressive on their resume to be except into a top 20.

I don't think people are talking about lower/mid-tier schools. Just the best of the best.


2. Are all disadvantage students applying to medical school attending a top undergraduate college? Doubtful.

If a disadvantage student applies from a top college, I'm sure ADCOMS consider it. But also, keep in mind that if the student had a lacking education background prior to college it might take them the first year or two to figure out how they study/learn and to catch up on all the things they were missing from HS (that the professor might not mention during class), resulting in them having a lower GPA than other students

edit: LizzyM, you answer is so much better. Thank you for contributing to this thread. 🙂

 

[startswithb]

Some come into college poorly prepared both academicly and in study skills due to substandard HS programs. This can contribute to a poor first semester or a poor first year that is then a hole that one needs to get out of. Next we have students, most often poor, and more likely than non-poor students to be students of color, who are expected to work in work to pay for school. Try doing well when you are trying to work 20 hrs wk by picking up the 4 a.m. -8 a.m. shift at the library 5 days a week.

In small classes with subjective grading, do not discount the biases that creep in, the soft bigotry of lower expectations.

That's interesting, because I feel I was poorly prepared for college. I graduated HS with a 4.0 and barely got a 3.0 my first semester. I was also expected to work, maybe not by society, but by my parents, to offset expenses. Although, since apparently I was given all the tools to succeed by being white, these circumstances are all on me to overcome.

I feel too often the upper classes of society paints a picture of the minority's life as being perpetually grim and constantly down-trodden. I feel there are societal and culture forces at work here besides being continually repressed by the "more fortunate" as the reasons why less minorities are inclined to enthusiastically pursure higher and professional education.

 

[Jolie South]

Alright children, let's play nice. We don't have to agree, but please be polite and refrain from personal attacks and racist comments. This thread will be closed if future posts aren't civil in nature.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

That's interesting, because I feel I was poorly prepared for college. I graduated HS with a 4.0 and barely got a 3.0 my first semester. I was also expected to work, maybe not by society, but by my parents, to offset expenses. Although, since apparently I was given all the tools to succeed by being white, these circumstances are all on me to overcome.

I feel too often the upper classes of society paints a picture of the minority's life as being perpetually grim and constantly down-trodden. I feel there are societal and culture forces at work here besides being continually repressed by the "more fortunate" as the reasons why less minorities are inclined to enthusiastically pursure higher and professional education.

I wpould agree with the bolded (if I read that correctly). I believe that is part of the reason why affirmative action continues. it's hard to get a good education if your family or community does not help you with that pursuit.

Anyways, I hope you wrote down on your application that you did work during college (I know I did; 3 -20 hours per week depending on the job for 3.5 years of college). ADCOMs will consider this.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure if you went to a subpar HS, you would have done worse in college. Subpar HS are the ones were pretty much everyone failed out, didn't pass standardize tests, and didn't go to college. That is student from a disadvantageous education background -- regardless if a minority or not. And URM is different from disadvantage. Please keep that in mind.

Everyone has a hard time adjusting from HS to college. ADCOMs know this and that is why a upward trend is good.