Okami WW Game Thread

[kaydubs]

At least there were 2 votes. THANKFULLY

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[kaydubs]

Day 3: It Takes Two to Tango Tally

Lawpy (4)- Sporty, zuri, genny, Cray
genny ()
Sporty (1) - AM

5/8

Missing: @Truenamer @justafluff @Lawpy

Vote closes TODAY at 9 p.m. CST/10 p.m. EST (~12.75 hours)

 

[kaydubs]

Jfc gotta go edit all of my tallies

 

[Truenamer]

Day 3: It Takes Two to Tango Tally

Lawpy (4)- Sporty, zuri, genny, Cray
genny ()
Sporty (1) - AM

5/8

Missing: @Truenamer @justafluff @Lawpy

Vote closes TODAY at 9 p.m. CST/10 p.m. EST (~12.75 hours)

I only feel comfortable voting on Lawpy, Sporty, or genny today, and I'm torn, because if there hadn't been a substitution I think I would be on Vis...

Both Sporty and genny are on Lawpy. That can mean a few things. It could mean that the pack is only two wolves, it could mean that those two are the remaining pack members and Lawpy is innocent. It could mean there's a little beep beep about to happen.

Hrm.

 

[genny]

I only feel comfortable voting on Lawpy, Sporty, or genny today, and I'm torn, because if there hadn't been a substitution I think I would be on Vis...

Both Sporty and genny are on Lawpy. That can mean a few things. It could mean that the pack is only two wolves, it could mean that those two are the remaining pack members and Lawpy is innocent. It could mean there's a little beep beep about to happen.

Hrm.

Why did you leave out the possibility that Lawpy’s partner is neither of us?

 

[Truenamer]

Why did you leave out the possibility that Lawpy’s partner is neither of us?

Zuri and Cray don't feel like strong possibilities, nor does fluff, and it's absolutely not AM. I was speculating about the situations I find most reasonable.

I agree though, it's mountainous and I need to keep my PoE flexible.

 

[Animal Midwife]

At this point, has anyone not expressed doubt over or shaded VisLawpy?

No, but this post was about fluff.

 

[Lawpy]

I’m trying out different experimental sub!Lawpy approaches and got what I was looking for. I’m good with closing early,

/Sub!Lawpy out

 

[Animal Midwife]

I’m trying out different experimental sub!Lawpy approaches and got what I was looking for. I’m good with closing early,

/Sub!Lawpy out

Not gonna vote?

 

[Truenamer]

I’m trying out different experimental sub!Lawpy approaches and got what I was looking for. I’m good with closing early,

/Sub!Lawpy out

Don't leave please

 

[genny]

I’m trying out different experimental sub!Lawpy approaches and got what I was looking for. I’m good with closing early,

/Sub!Lawpy out

Wolf!lawpy confirmed

 

[Lawpy]

Not gonna vote?

Don't leave please

Wolf!lawpy confirmed

Unlikely

*bows out*

 

[Truenamer]

Unlikely

*bows out*

This makes me sad and a bit frustrated but I'm not sure how to respond other than

yeet Lawpy

 

[zuriburi]

Unlikely

*bows out*

aww... i imagine joining in to face a pileon sucks a lot! i appreciate the effort and it's way more fun to at least have some defense of vis then total silence.

 

[Truenamer]

aww... i imagine joining in to face a pileon sucks a lot! i appreciate the effort and it's way more fun to at least have some defense of vis then total silence.

I do think his method of defense was a little... too aggressive and not substantial enough, maybe? Not sure how to put it. It felt like he was moving too quickly between different theories, with a ton of quoted vote totals and stuff in between to fill up the thread without adding clear meaning to the discussion.

If he is a wolf, I think focusing in on one or two people would have been more productive. As it stands, I don't even know that I can say who Lawpy would vote for, despite him generating the most discussion yesterday.

 

[Truenamer]

Thread is exploding while I'm busy, dead while I'm looking for a procrastination distraction. It's almost like you people want me to do my job

 

[justafluff]

Well, I was sus of sporty, but Lawpy’s approach made me feel worse about vis. so I’m good with this turn of events. It’ll help clear sporty for me. So sorry Lawpy. Can’t wait to play with you again.
Yeet Lawpy
@kaydubs (bolded!)

 

[Truenamer]

Well, I was sus of sporty, but Lawpy’s approach made me feel worse about vis. so I’m good with this turn of events. It’ll help clear sporty for me. So sorry Lawpy. Can’t wait to play with you again.
Yeet Lawpy
@kaydubs (bolded!)

I would be cautious about clearing anyone if Lawpy flips Wolf and the game doesn't end.

 

[justafluff]

I would be cautious about clearing anyone if Lawpy flips Wolf and the game doesn't end.

That’s fair. AM warned me about it too.. But I gotta start somewhere

 

[Crayola227]

I’m trying out different experimental sub!Lawpy approaches and got what I was looking for. I’m good with closing early,

/Sub!Lawpy out

Well this is just sad

 

[Truenamer]

That’s fair. AM warned me about it too.. But I gotta start somewhere

I guess I'll procrastinate by laying out where I see us going next. We do need to be a bit thoughtful about yeeting Lawpy.

These are the situations I see as realistic for this game:
1. Lawpy is the last wolf. Game ends when we yeet him.
2. Lawpy is a wolf but the game doesn't end, meaning there's one more (I assume 4 wolves is not possible). We'd then have a 6:1 advantage, 5:1 after the N3 night kill. This gives us a margin of one more misyeet. Given the players that are more or less cleared at this point, we should be fine.
3. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there is one more. Indistinguishable from 4. Not great, and we have to act like we have no margin for error, but it would mean we're at 5:1 after the NK and should be fine based on our current reads and clears.
4. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there are two more. Indistinguishable from 3. Worst case scenario, it would mean we're currently at 6:2, but would be at 4:2 after misyeeting Lawpy and the NK. No margin for error.

 

[Truenamer]

I guess I'll procrastinate by laying out where I see us going next. We do need to be a bit thoughtful about yeeting Lawpy.

These are the situations I see as realistic for this game:
1. Lawpy is the last wolf. Game ends when we yeet him.
2. Lawpy is a wolf but the game doesn't end, meaning there's one more (I assume 4 wolves is not possible). We'd then have a 6:1 advantage, 5:1 after the N3 night kill. This gives us a margin of one more misyeet. Given the players that are more or less cleared at this point, we should be fine.
3. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there is one more. Indistinguishable from 4. Not great, and we have to act like we have no margin for error, but it would mean we're at 5:1 after the NK and should be fine based on our current reads and clears.
4. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there are two more. Indistinguishable from 3. Worst case scenario, it would mean we're currently at 6:2, but would be at 4:2 after misyeeting Lawpy and the NK. No margin for error.

The tl;dr here is that if Lawpy flips village, we need to act like our bacon is cooked until proven otherwise

 

[Crayola227]

The tl;dr here is that if Lawpy flips village, we need to act like our bacon is cooked until proven otherwise

Yes, and so what I want to know is in a post-AM NK world, who to yeet next. Like an outline of the POE to go down. Because it's happened to me that she's died, we didn't get the flip we expected, and then we kind of floundered with misyeets we didn't expect, and I think it may have led to a loss.

Never underestimate village's ability to flub things and do bad misyeets one after another in a row searching for a final wolf(ves). Harder than you think at times.

 

[Crayola227]

I wish Lawpy hadn't left. I would have liked for him to make clearer to me his POE, like in what order he would yeet people, in case he is village. Sadly the fact he isn't still playing ball makes him seem wolfier. Just because I am as always sort of nervous about the flip and would want to know where to go next if there are any surprises, and I do appreciate when others do VCA since that is my greatest weakness. I found his analysis interesting to say the least. It just didn't feel village. If it's a wolf lawpy I wonder if his analysis has any packmate clues.

 

[Truenamer]

I wish Lawpy hadn't left. I would have liked for him to make clearer to me his POE, like in what order he would yeet people, in case he is village. Sadly the fact he isn't still playing ball makes him seem wolfier. Just because I am as always sort of nervous about the flip and would want to know where to go next if there are any surprises, and I do appreciate when others do VCA since that is my greatest weakness. I found his analysis interesting to say the least. It just didn't feel village. If it's a wolf lawpy I wonder if his analysis has any packmate clues.

I really didn't want to vote for him the day he subbed in but I don't know how to take him leaving other than "frustrated wolf."

 

[Crayola227]

Fluff
Genny
Visc/Lawp
Zuri
TN
SP

I sorta forgot about Zuri for a sec until I consulted the roster. This is the roster after I remove myself and AM.

Just thinking hard. The POE from Midwife feels large enough for me to **** it up.

I have to decide in the case of Lawp flipping either way, where to go next. If I ignore TN or Fluff, to me Zuri, SP, and genny, the pool of 3 would be difficult to determine where the wolves are/woof is.

Like, I'm having a hard time ranking them in terms of wolfiness relative to one another.

If there are 1 or 2 out of 3 of those players wolf, that doesn't actually make it that much easier to yeet correctly before running out of misyeets.

 

[Truenamer]

Fluff
Genny
Visc/Lawp
Zuri
TN
SP

I sorta forgot about Zuri for a sec until I consulted the roster. This is the roster after I remove myself and AM.

Just thinking hard. The POE from Midwife feels large enough for me to **** it up.

I have to decide in the case of Lawp flipping either way, where to go next. If I ignore TN or Fluff, to me Zuri, SP, and genny, the pool of 3 would be difficult to determine where the wolves are/woof is.

Like, I'm having a hard time ranking them in terms of wolfiness relative to one another.

If there are 1 or 2 out of 3 of those players wolf, that doesn't actually make it that much easier to yeet correctly before running out of misyeets.

If Zuri is a wolf he's very good at this (especially for a noob). He could be, but I don't feel like he is.

 

[genny]

The tl;dr here is that if Lawpy flips village, we need to act like our bacon is cooked until proven otherwise

I have a very hard time believing he might flip village. I just don’t see village Lawpy giving up on the rest of the village like that when it might leave us really close to a wolf win.

 

[Truenamer]

I have a very hard time believing he might flip village. I just don’t see village Lawpy giving up on the rest of the village like that when it might leave us really close to a wolf win.

My interpretation of events is:

Lawpy gets plopped into a rough situation -> attempts a strategy of maximum thread control / spew -> it doesn't go over well -> he peaces out

 

[genny]

My interpretation of events is:

Lawpy gets plopped into a rough situation -> attempts a strategy of maximum thread control / spew -> it doesn't go over well -> he peaces out

And knowing how much Lawpy adores wolfing, the quitting seems more like a wolf action than village. He’s done solo wolfing successfully before, but it’s hard. And I don’t think any less of him for peacing out.

 

[Truenamer]

And knowing how much Lawpy adores wolfing, the quitting seems more like a wolf action than village. He’s done solo wolfing successfully before, but it’s hard. And I don’t think any less of him for peacing out.

If he's solo wolfing as a sub in on D3 as the person who was probably going to be the D3 yeet... yeah, it's a tough ask.

 

[Truenamer]

Getting strong "we should close early" vibes from the thread, but that might just be because it's the middle of the workday

 

[zuriburi]

I guess I'll procrastinate by laying out where I see us going next. We do need to be a bit thoughtful about yeeting Lawpy.

These are the situations I see as realistic for this game:
1. Lawpy is the last wolf. Game ends when we yeet him.
2. Lawpy is a wolf but the game doesn't end, meaning there's one more (I assume 4 wolves is not possible). We'd then have a 6:1 advantage, 5:1 after the N3 night kill. This gives us a margin of one more misyeet. Given the players that are more or less cleared at this point, we should be fine.
3. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there is one more. Indistinguishable from 4. Not great, and we have to act like we have no margin for error, but it would mean we're at 5:1 after the NK and should be fine based on our current reads and clears.
4. Lawpy is not a wolf, and there are two more. Indistinguishable from 3. Worst case scenario, it would mean we're currently at 6:2, but would be at 4:2 after misyeeting Lawpy and the NK. No margin for error.

I'm kinda expecting #1 at this point, because the stuff lawpy was throwing out made no sense and everyone's push back seemed genuine. In scenario #2 I would think probably genny then sporty. #3 or 4 feels scary, and I'd still think genny then sporty but not 100%...

also i have to say, while I am pretty confident in everyone the woxy vote, i don't fully understand why am seems to be everyone's most cleared on that vote? cray and fluff were on that vote first before AM, and true made a pretty strong case for woxy, so if anyone on there would be sus, I'd think AM. Still not even close to my yeet list in the timeline we have, but just wondering why she get the absolutely village card?

 

[zuriburi]

i'm fine with closing early... i want to know!

 

[Truenamer]

I'm kinda expecting #1 at this point, because the stuff lawpy was throwing out made no sense and everyone's push back seemed genuine. In scenario #2 I would think probably genny then sporty. #3 or 4 feels scary, and I'd still think genny then sporty but not 100%...

also i have to say, while I am pretty confident in everyone the woxy vote, i don't fully understand why am seems to be everyone's most cleared on that vote? cray and fluff were on that vote first before AM, and true made a pretty strong case for woxy, so if anyone on there would be sus, I'd think AM. Still not even close to my yeet list in the timeline we have, but just wondering why she get the absolutely village card?

AM has a very long history of being very firm about not voting for packmates outside of extreme situations, like a Seer confirming that her packmate is a wolf.

 

[justafluff]

Yes. I def bussed my first time wolfing. True is trying to not do it, but he had to last game since everyone was asking him and it would be super suspicious if he didn’t. We re still new so haven’t established that trust in playing style.

 

[Truenamer]

Yes. I def bussed my first time wolfing. True is trying to not do it, but he had to last game since everyone was asking him and it would be super suspicious if he didn’t. We re still new so haven’t established that trust in playing style.

I'd like to say that I'm doing my level best to stay to AM's style of wolfing, where I'll only vote for a teammate if to do otherwise is conceding the game.

My biggest personal reason is that I believe restrictions breed creativity and force stronger tactical thinking.

EDIT- Also, I want credit for catching wolves when I'm a villager.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I'd like to say that I'm doing my level best to stay to AM's style of wolfing, where I'll only vote for a teammate if to do otherwise is conceding the game.

My biggest personal reason is that I believe restrictions breed creativity and force stronger tactical thinking.

EDIT- Also, I want credit for catching wolves when I'm a villager.

It also breeds/forces more fist swallowing.

 

[zuriburi]

curious @SportPonies who you think we should look at in either the case where lawpy flips village or flips wolf and the game's not over?

 

[Crayola227]

I'd like to say that I'm doing my level best to stay to AM's style of wolfing, where I'll only vote for a teammate if to do otherwise is conceding the game.

My biggest personal reason is that I believe restrictions breed creativity and force stronger tactical thinking.

EDIT- Also, I want credit for catching wolves when I'm a villager.

Eh, restrictions in the game do nothing more than to make things more predictable.

Think of how much more difficult this would be if everyone on the Woxy vote was known to be capable of bussing in some, but not all, situations outside the extreme.

And never nerf your wolf game for your village game.

If you want challenge, challenge is what I'm saying where people can't be cleared for merely voting a wolf outside dire situations.

If this were true of the entire wagon, we wouldn't be able to rely on the VCA so straightforwardly. We'd be forced to ISO and look at every single pair of people for interactions, like, there's definitely more work to be done that way. We'd have to comb the threads for post analysis and timing of placement of votes. It becomes much more complicated, difficult, harder to predict, harder to win.

For example, AM no longer has to do anything more to prove that she's village. Contrast that with myself or genny or Sporty. You saw what Lawpy did, came in thread spreading sus. But he didn't bother doing it with AM. Because it doesn't work. You can say that forces creativity, but not really. The rest of us were forced to defend.

It makes the game more challenging when wolves can try to sow sus on villagers. It creates openings for them to attempt to push misyeets, for the villagers to defend, and this can further reveal wolves and reinforce village reads. Interactions are good. But if everyone just follows a never bussing meta, it literally renders VCA way too obvious. Then one need only look at players off wagon to find the partners.

I have to work way, way, way harder to prove I'm village. How's that for creativity? Because my voting a wolf or not voting a wolf is never enough to clear myself or not clear myself.

I think I get frustrated, because I think people just starting the game are looking for shortcuts to improve their village game. Improving your wolf game is the fastest path to forcing yourself to be a better villager and all around player. I don't want to see everyone copy AM's style because of the predictability and making it easier to village, which also makes it harder for wolves to win. We need a balance of that for the health of the game, and so the game is more unpredictable and challenging.

 

[Crayola227]

I'd like to say that I'm doing my level best to stay to AM's style of wolfing, where I'll only vote for a teammate if to do otherwise is conceding the game.

My biggest personal reason is that I believe restrictions breed creativity and force stronger tactical thinking.

EDIT- Also, I want credit for catching wolves when I'm a villager.

So what I'm saying, is having to prove you're village without the benefit of VCA to help you, absolutely breeds creativity and stronger tactical thinking.

Honestly this game would be boring if it weren't for players like myself, visc, genny, sporty.

The people more difficult to clear as village when village keep this game alive.

Do what you want. I merely disagree that not bussing forces more creativity or tactical thinking. I find being flexible and unpredictable does that best. I also disagree that an easier villager game is more enjoyable, but that's subjective so definitely no one size fits all.

Consider as well that the easier to read as village players, some have complained about being voted out right away when wolfing, and also being NK'd early. So it may not always be super rewarding or "easier" if you have an ironclad relationship with VCA and whatnot.

The fact wolves can always throw sus at me when I'm village, also means I have the challenge of living longer from NK while trying to dodge misyeets. This gets back to the thing about creativity and tactical thinking.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm also OK with an early close but no idea if our saying so does anything to affect mod decisions that way.

 

[Truenamer]

So what I'm saying, is having to prove you're village without the benefit of VCA to help you, absolutely breeds creativity and stronger tactical thinking.

Honestly this game would be boring if it weren't for players like myself, visc, genny, sporty.

The people more difficult to clear as village when village keep this game alive.

Do what you want. I merely disagree that not bussing forces more creativity or tactical thinking. I find being flexible and unpredictable does that best. I also disagree that an easier villager game is more enjoyable, but that's subjective so definitely no one size fits all.

Consider as well that the easier to read as village players, some have complained about being voted out right away when wolfing, and also being NK'd early. So it may not always be super rewarding or "easier" if you have an ironclad relationship with VCA and whatnot.

The fact wolves can always throw sus at me when I'm village, also means I have the challenge of living longer from NK while trying to dodge misyeets. This gets back to the thing about creativity and tactical thinking.

I definitely agree that the trade-off of having a strict never-busing stance is accepting that you are going to be NK'd early and often. People like myself and AM are basically strictly better to NK, so we don't have any room to complain when we are.

 

[Animal Midwife]

As I've said before, I'm not ever playing the game in a way that makes easier for an opposing team to win against me. The defeats the purpose of me even having a wincon in the first place.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Game health is balanced on how well everyone gets along with each other, how broken the mechanics are, and how many zeroposters exist.

 

[WildZoo]

broken the mechanics are

*********
Broken mechanics = healthier games, yes?
**********

 

[Crayola227]

As I've said before, I'm not ever playing the game in a way that makes easier for an opposing team to win against me. The defeats the purpose of me even having a wincon in the first place.

So is that what people who bus as wolves are doing to village when they village?

I'm saying the trade off of the trickery advantage you gain as a wolf bussing, is that it is then harder to be read as village. But not impossible. This game I had time to defend from wolf misyeet attempts and misguided villagers.

I think you don't see how if everyone played the way you suggest, that VCA becomes too powerful a tool, and that in effect what people end up doing is hamstringing their wolf game for their village game, doing the very thing you suggest they not do, which is give advantage to the other side.

You don't see how your arguments are hopelessly biased towards village wins. That your whole attitude is almost one that acts like wolf wins matter less or should only happen a certain way, that like the whole goal of the game is for village to win every time. That is *only* true is one is village. One's village game, by definition should NOT be a consideration when wolfing. Only wolfing should be. Then one has to accept and work through the consequences of that when randing village.

You act as though someone saying no, you may need to compromise your village game so as not to compromise your wolf game, is the same thing as saying one should throw the village game. That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

[WildZoo]

So is that what people who bus as wolves are doing to village when they village?

I'm saying the trade off of the trickery advantage you gain as a wolf bussing, is that it is then harder to be read as village. But not impossible. This game I had time to defend from wolf misyeet attempts and misguided villagers.

I think you don't see how if everyone played the way you suggest, that VCA becomes too powerful a tool, and that in effect what people end up doing is hamstringing their wolf game for their village game, doing the very thing you suggest they not do, which is give advantage to the other side.

You don't see how your arguments are hopelessly biased towards village wins. That your whole attitude is almost one that acts like wolf wins matter less or should only happen a certain way, that like the whole goal of the game is for village to win every time. That is *only* true is one is village. One's village game, by definition should NOT be a consideration when wolfing. Only wolfing should be. Then one has to accept and work through the consequences of that when randing village.

You act as though someone saying no, you may need to compromise your village game so as not to compromise your wolf game, is the same thing as saying one should throw the village game. That's not what I'm saying at all.

************
How about we let everyone play the way they want to play and drop it. As much as you talk about fostering individual playstyles you sure are using a lot of language that puts down the people who prefer not to play the way you think the game should be played.

AM has won plenty as a wolf without bussing unnecessarily, as have I, as have many others. Let it go dude.
*************

 

[Animal Midwife]

So is that what people who bus as wolves are doing to village when they village?

No, they're playing into their strengths which means they'll likely have to pursue other avenues of clearing themselves since VCA is much weaker.

I'm saying the trade off of the trickery advantage you gain as a wolf bussing, is that it is then harder to be read as village. But not impossible. This game I had time to defend from wolf misyeet attempts and misguided villagers.

Which is fine.

I think you don't see how if everyone played the way you suggest, that VCA becomes too powerful a tool, and that in effect what people end up doing is hamstringing their wolf game for their village game, doing the very thing you suggest they not do, which is give advantage to the other side.

No one on this thread or any other thread said everyone should, or must, play like me. All that happened is True said his playstyle is similar to mine in that regard.

It's just as important to allow people to have the freedom to bus as it is to allow them the freedom to not bus.

You don't see how your arguments are hopelessly biased towards village wins. That your whole attitude is almost one that acts like wolf wins matter less or should only happen a certain way, that like the whole goal of the game is for village to win every time. That is *only* true is one is village. One's village game, by definition should NOT be a consideration when wolfing. Only wolfing should be. Then one has to accept and work through the consequences of that when randing village.

I don't see how it's biased towards village wins. I have done decently defeating village with this strategy before.

You act as though someone saying no, you may need to compromise your village game so as not to compromise your wolf game, is the same thing as saying one should throw the village game. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Nor am I saying that. Everyone should play how they're most comfortable (or most uncomfortable if they're into that) without being shamed into thinking they're not working as hard as they can to win for their respective team.

 

[supershorty]

************
How about we let everyone play the way they want to play and drop it. As much as you talk about fostering individual playstyles you sure are using a lot of language that puts down the people who prefer not to play the way you think the game should be played.

AM has won plenty as a wolf without bussing unnecessarily, as have I, as have many others. Let it go dude.
*************

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