one above and one below

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Pointless

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Just wanted to get the collective pulse on this... are people still generally targeting one vertebral body above and below your target site for strictly palliative treatment (30/10, 20/5, 8/1). It's always struck me as archaic in the modern age of image guidance and I've moved away from it, without any seeming drop in pain control. And I've yet to run into the "marginal miss that could have been treated" that i was always warned of by my attendings back in training. Thoughts?

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For 3D treatments I still do. Not for the possibility of missing, more so to avoid putting field edges in the middle of a vertebral body (which would be necessary to get prescription dose to the preferred vertebral body). Likely just dogma for that as well. I don't think the extra half vertebral body on each side is going to make or break it.
 
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I draw my CTV such that the PTV ends up in the interspace, so i guess the field edge is slightly into the neighboring bodies but minimally. I'm more apt to do this in higher lesions where esophagitis can be an issue.. with lumbar spine, I'm much more apt to cover judiciously.
 
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The K-I-S-S dogma for palliation has always bothered me.

In training, I always thought it was odd how some attendings would make a point out of not getting fancy ("cute" was the word frequently used) with palliation and do the simplest treatments possible. Like it was a pride thing or something.

I somewhat/mostly disagree. My viewpoint is that if we have the technology, use it the best we can. Every case is different, but in general I try to get as much effective dose in as I can and avoid as much normal tissue as I possibly can. Every case is different, and I find myself being very "cute" often. I often use dose fractionations other than 20/5 or 30/10, try to make conformal volumes, think about what expansions are really appropriate, frequently do BED calculations, will use more complicated planning techniques, etc.

In the spine, we have a somewhat natural barrier to spread between levels. I think we need to think each time what levels are appropriate to treat rather than just BB where they're hurting and open the blocks to one above and below.

I enjoy palliative radiation and really believe it's an art. I think it's a shame so many ignore it and just 20/5 everything. I am not a fan of spine met equals automatically blast AP-PA one above and below to 20/5, sign plan as quickly as possible, done. I take my time and really try to be thoughtful. I have been lots of SBRT spine and dose painting, something I virtually never did in training. I just ablated a painful oligiomet in the neck. Took it to brachial plexus tolerance. Complete response a month out, zero toxicity. Patient is happy as a clam, and NED elsewhere, sitting on a diagnosis of metastatic pancreatic cancer for a year now with nothing else growing. Should I have just done 20/5? Maybe, but I think considering each case individually is worth it. Not all metastatic patients are the same!

Whole brain especially. 30/10 to the whole brain for anything other than very poor prognosis patients seems archaic to me. I try to do whatever I can to dose escalate gross disease and spare radiographically normal brain. I take histology into account in my prescriptions. If I can't SRS, I VMAT. Laterals are last resort.
 
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More or less agree with everything you said. I too have been doing more sbrt and single fx spine srs. We do conformal planning rather than simple 2 field plans and that is really the genesis of my shift away from 1 up and 1 down. In short, it felt weird and contradictory to contour normal very bodies as CTV just so I could stay within convention that was established in the days of cobalt and fluoro.
 
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Despite your blatant disrespect for ethnic seasoned meat and rice dishes, I agree with much of what you said. I think that the APM, if done right, will allow palliation to be customized/individualized without having to justify (too much) what you're doing.

One above and one below is a remnant of 2D era, where the assumption was that if L1 has a met on a plain film, than it's very likely T12 and L2 also have a met. And the attending nonsense about coming back and matching later - that's 2D remnant, and doesn't matter with 3D planning any more.

There are very few things that lead to as much joy as taking someone from 10/10 pain and stuck in a wheelchair to 0/10 and able to dance with you in the exam room.

The K-I-S-S dogma for palliation has always bothered me.

In training, I always thought it was odd how some attendings would make a point out of not getting fancy ("cute" was the word frequently used) with palliation and do the simplest treatments possible. Like it was a pride thing or something.

I somewhat/mostly disagree. My viewpoint is that if we have the technology, use it the best we can. Every case is different, but in general I try to get as much effective dose in as I can and avoid as much normal tissue as I possibly can. Every case is different, and I find myself being very "cute" often. I often use dose fractionations other than 20/5 or 30/10, try to make conformal volumes, think about what expansions are really appropriate, frequently do BED calculations, will use more complicated planning techniques, etc.

In the spine, we have a somewhat natural barrier to spread between levels. I think we need to think each time what levels are appropriate to treat rather than just BB where they're hurting and open the blocks to one above and below.

I enjoy palliative radiation and really believe it's an art. I think it's a shame so many ignore it and just 20/5 everything. I am not a fan of spine met equals automatically blast AP-PA one above and below to 20/5, sign plan as quickly as possible, done. I take my time and really try to be thoughtful. I have been lots of SBRT spine and dose painting, something I virtually never did in training. I just ablated a painful oligiomet in the neck. Took it to brachial plexus tolerance. Complete response a month out, zero toxicity. Patient is happy as a clam, and NED elsewhere, sitting on a diagnosis of metastatic pancreatic cancer for a year now with nothing else growing. Should I have just done 20/5? Maybe, but I think considering each case individually is worth it. Not all metastatic patients are the same!

Whole brain especially. 30/10 to the whole brain for anything other than very poor prognosis patients seems archaic to me. I try to do whatever I can to dose escalate gross disease and spare radiographically normal brain. I take histology into account in my prescriptions. If I can't SRS, I VMAT. Laterals are last resort.
 
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I stopped doing one above and below. I kept getting into a scenario with non-contiguous spine mets like T12 and L4 - do I do T11-L1, skip L2, then do L3-5? Or do I just include L2, because treating that in the future will be difficult, but means a larger treated volume.

Or it was like, T11-L5 that need treatment and I'm like, do I really want to add 2 more vertebral bodies to this already large field?

I got to a point where I was like, F it, let's just do involved vertebral bodies. Been very happy since.
 
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I personally think we need to consider systematic over-utilization especially for palliative cases. If you're still going to do all of this even in APM when it will likely lose you money, then OK. I subscribe to the KISS mantra for palliation in the upfront setting. Yes, can consider SBRT if oligometastatic or radioresistant histology, but would not routinely SBRT spine mets.

RTOG 0631 phase III results showed no difference in pain control: ASTRO 2019 Annual Meeting

Data is better for SBRTing non-spine bone mets, IMO, although likely needs phase III validation: Single-Fraction Stereotactic vs Conventional Multifraction Radiotherapy for Pain Relief in Patients With Predominantly Nonspine Bone Metastases: A ... - PubMed - NCBI
 
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I personally think we need to consider systematic over-utilization especially for palliative cases. If you're still going to do all of this even in APM when it will likely lose you money, then OK. I subscribe to the KISS mantra for palliation in the upfront setting. Yes, can consider SBRT if oligometastatic or radioresistant histology, but would not routinely SBRT spine mets.

RTOG 0631 phase III results showed no difference in pain control: ASTRO 2019 Annual Meeting

Data is better for SBRTing non-spine bone mets, IMO, although likely needs phase III validation: Single-Fraction Stereotactic vs Conventional Multifraction Radiotherapy for Pain Relief in Patients With Predominantly Nonspine Bone Metastases: A ... - PubMed - NCBI
Honest question. Explain how lowering the Rx isovolume/target volume ratio will “lose you money” (in APM model). And way back when I made an (somewhat facetious, but supportable) argument to do SBRT for all spine mets based on this. [edit: didn't see your post, but qu on money still stands; imho fwiw the pain better-or-not-question not 100% answered]
 
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And, just think, your integral dose is triple what it needs to be for a single vertebral body. These things add up on long term stage IV patients.
 
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I don't see how it loses you money to treat a single vertebral body with a multi-field plan. The "SBRT" planning in that MDACC study is not very stringent like a lung plan. It's pretty simple and you can meet the planning criteria quite easily without having to push planning very hard.
 
I personally think we need to consider systematic over-utilization especially for palliative cases. If you're still going to do all of this even in APM when it will likely lose you money, then OK. I subscribe to the KISS mantra for palliation in the upfront setting. Yes, can consider SBRT if oligometastatic or radioresistant histology, but would not routinely SBRT spine mets.

RTOG 0631 phase III results showed no difference in pain control: ASTRO 2019 Annual Meeting

Data is better for SBRTing non-spine bone mets, IMO, although likely needs phase III validation: Single-Fraction Stereotactic vs Conventional Multifraction Radiotherapy for Pain Relief in Patients With Predominantly Nonspine Bone Metastases: A ... - PubMed - NCBI

Honest question - what is difference between this trial and a phase III?

This is described as "prospective, randomized, single-institution phase 2 noninferiority trial "

If it is prospective, randomized, and one of the arms is a standard of care, how is it not phase III? (I know nothing about this kind of thing)
 
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Honest question - what is difference between this trial and a phase III?

This is described as "prospective, randomized, single-institution phase 2 noninferiority trial "

If it is prospective, randomized, and one of the arms is a standard of care, how is it not phase III? (I know nothing about this kind of thing)

It means that the evidence is good enough for everyone but Evicore and old people who are scared of technology and stuck in the 80s.
 
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Honest question. Explain how lowering the Rx isovolume/target volume ratio will “lose you money” (in APM model). And way back when I made an (somewhat facetious, but supportable) argument to do SBRT for all spine mets based on this. [edit: didn't see your post, but qu on money still stands; imho fwiw the pain better-or-not-question not 100% answered]

Fair enough - I shouldn't say lose money at the physician level. I'll say takes up more physician, dosimetry, physics, AND therapist time than a standard palliation plan. The downstream effects of which will be felt by the whole department. Imagine if every bone met patient you had now was done with IMRT. We do daily CBCT for all IMRT.

How much longer would your machines run on a daily basis? How much more expense would the department have in therapist expenses? How much more physicist support would be required for the increased volume of QA required? Time for dosimetrists to contour every OAR on every spine met and do inverse optimization?

Again, if it's something that is worth it then OK. IMO I'm not going to routinely do IMRT for bone mets regardless of the APM situation. Same with SBRT outside of oligomet/radioresistant histology, especially outside of the spine.
 
I don't plan on changing my practice one bit in response to APM other than feeling more free to use imrt in definitive cases where it's currently frowned on (looking at you esophagus and rectum). I like to think that I am already offering optimal palliative care within my comfort level.
 
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Fair enough - I shouldn't say lose money at the physician level. I'll say takes up more physician, dosimetry, physics, AND therapist time than a standard palliation plan. The downstream effects of which will be felt by the whole department. Imagine if every bone met patient you had now was done with IMRT. We do daily CBCT for all IMRT.

How much longer would your machines run on a daily basis? How much more expense would the department have in therapist expenses? How much more physicist support would be required for the increased volume of QA required? Time for dosimetrists to contour every OAR on every spine met and do inverse optimization?

Again, if it's something that is worth it then OK. IMO I'm not going to routinely do IMRT for bone mets regardless of the APM situation. Same with SBRT outside of oligomet/radioresistant histology, especially outside of the spine.

Well ... if you did 12-16 Gy in a single fraction for most of your bone mets, you'd have 9 less treatment days, and the overall cost would be less for the system (technical + professional), so I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
 
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Honest question - what is difference between this trial and a phase III?

This is described as "prospective, randomized, single-institution phase 2 noninferiority trial "

If it is prospective, randomized, and one of the arms is a standard of care, how is it not phase III? (I know nothing about this kind of thing)
As I understand it, it comes down to a power thing. Randomized phase II is not powered for survival/efficacy but is powered for toxicity instead (usually easier and needs less pts)

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Fair enough - I shouldn't say lose money at the physician level. I'll say takes up more physician, dosimetry, physics, AND therapist time than a standard palliation plan. The downstream effects of which will be felt by the whole department. Imagine if every bone met patient you had now was done with IMRT. We do daily CBCT for all IMRT.

How much longer would your machines run on a daily basis? How much more expense would the department have in therapist expenses? How much more physicist support would be required for the increased volume of QA required? Time for dosimetrists to contour every OAR on every spine met and do inverse optimization?

Again, if it's something that is worth it then OK. IMO I'm not going to routinely do IMRT for bone mets regardless of the APM situation. Same with SBRT outside of oligomet/radioresistant histology, especially outside of the spine.

* Efficient & quick contouring should be the modern rad onc's goal. If you can't get a spine SBRT all beautifully contoured up in <30 min, that's bad. And you can do the whole plan (including inverse opt) start to finish in ~30 min or there is also a problem. QA time commitment, at most, 15 min or so I guess.
* I do IMRT e.g. for every C-spine palliation case e.g. I put the gantry at about 90 & 270, and do a couch kick away from gantry of about 25-30 degrees. This way you can come in with "non-coplanar laterals" to avoid the shoulders but be very much more off the esophagus. I make things pretty tight in terms of anterior (into esoph) spillover, keep the CTV->PTV expansion tight, etc. This is a 2-field plan which can essentially only be done with IMRT to keep the target dose homogenous and the plan Dmax ~110% or less. All that said, this is a very easy plan to plan and implement and takes no longer than the "average" spine palliation by any measure.
* Herman Suit used to say, to justify proton therapy, "There is no clinical rationale for even one picogray of dose outside the target volume." This is a good ethos IMHO. And if you want to apply it for bone mets, and do IMRT vs AP/PA e.g., why not? I, personally, would want to be treated that way.
* In APM, I predict routine IMRT QA will go away. This, like "one above and one below," is a relic of the past. We do electronic wedges e.g., which are really just IMRT (that is not billed as IMRT). We never QA that. We never see sliding wedge dose disasters clincally due to lack of QAing the plan to make sure the sliding MLCs or jaws are applying the "wedge." I know some academic centers that do not do routine on-machine IMRT QA e.g. although they would never admit it. There is no clinical advantage to QAing EVERY IMRT case. Nor is there any advantage in "easy" SBRT or SRS IMHO. QAing is now technically a billing requirement for IMRT.
* You can do a very conformal treatment with two VMAT arcs which allows a tx to be easily still fit within a 15 min time slot.
* The 3D-> IMRT transition era did not see an increase in therapist expenses. No reason a IMRT->SBRT transition would either, especially since it implies much less OVERALL course-of-treatment treatment time per patient.

So, at least in my mind, in a very near future or today, SBRT for most things which used not to be SBRT will not see increased burdens on a dept. It will be less burdens, and equal or less expenses. It may very well be less reimbursement though. A 10-fraction 3D and IGRT can get more reimbursement than a single fraction SBRT. And a 10 fraction IMRT+IGRT sure will.
 
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What our good friend with C Diff of the vocal apparatus is saying is that our good moderator’s “very strongly worded opinions” are not based on experience, evidence, and most importantly, reality. “Complex” in billing doesn’t always been complicated for the clinic.
 
Hold on - the MDACC bone met SBRT trial was complete GARBAGe lol. Have any of you actually looked at it? The control is not consistently better depending on what time point you look at. It’s a bad trial with ****ty results and that’s why it fell down into JAMA onc.

It’s dumb if people are trying to has this to justify SBRT for bone mets when not treating per an oligometastatic paradigm or for potentially resistant histologies
 
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Hold on - the MDACC bone met SBRT trial was complete GARBAGe lol. Have any of you actually looked at it? The control is not consistently better depending on what time point you look at. It’s a bad trial with ****ty results and that’s why it fell down into JAMA onc.

It’s dumb if people are trying to has this to justify SBRT for bone mets when not treating per an oligometastatic paradigm or for potentially resistant histologies
Yeah really crappy trial if it "fell down" all the way to JAMA Onc...
 
We no longer do so.

When delivering "standard" palliative RT for vertebral mets we delineate the entire affected vertebral body as CTV and add a PTV margin to it.
Whatever volume results after that is simply treated.
 
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There’s really only a few reasons for one above and one below. To easily match fields while making sure you have enough margin for penumbra on the involved body and to ensure coverage when you don’t have igrt. I.e emergent treat of a t spine without simulation (rare).
 
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I still do "one above - one below" because it seem to prevent marginal misses in some cases, via treating clinically not apparent adjacent mets.
 
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I still do "one above - one below" because it seem to prevent marginal misses in some case via treating clinically not apparent adjacent mets.
Well then you should probably treat "two above - two below" to prevent the next marginal miss in the next vertebral body with a not apparent adjacent met. Or perhaps "three above - three below"... Oh wait, I know where this is going...
 
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For what it's worth:


Irradiation of Spinal Metastases: Should We Continue to Include One Uninvolved Vertebral Body Above and Below in the Radiation Field?

Results
Fifty-eight patients met inclusion criteria for this study and harbored 65 distinct spinal metastases. At 18-month median follow-up, seven (10.7%) patients failed simultaneously at adjacent levels V±1 and at multiple sites throughout the spine. Only two (3%) patients experienced isolated, solitary adjacent failures at 9 and 11 months, respectively.
Conclusion
Isolated local failures of the unirradiated adjacent vertebral bodies may occur in <5% of patients with isolated spinal metastasis. On the basis of the data, the current practice of irradiating one vertebral body above and below seems unnecessary and could be revised to irradiate only the involved level(s) of the spine metastasis.
 
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Only two (3%) patients experienced isolated, solitary adjacent failures at 9 and 11 months, respectively.
Vertebral body mets are random (and that's why the T-spine is more commonly involved with mets than C, L, or S... there are more T's, that's why). With a big enough sample size, the probability of an isolated vertebral body failure in one of the two adjacent would be about:
((1/32)+(1/31))/2 = 3.2%
Which agrees well with the 3% from the paper :)
 
Only a palliative radiation therapy fellow can offer the right answer to this question.
 
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Only a palliative radiation therapy fellow can offer the right answer to this question.

That is objectively funny. Topical, pertinent and the appropriate level of gallows humor. Well done, sir/madam.
 
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For what it's worth:


Irradiation of Spinal Metastases: Should We Continue to Include One Uninvolved Vertebral Body Above and Below in the Radiation Field?

Results
Fifty-eight patients met inclusion criteria for this study and harbored 65 distinct spinal metastases. At 18-month median follow-up, seven (10.7%) patients failed simultaneously at adjacent levels V±1 and at multiple sites throughout the spine. Only two (3%) patients experienced isolated, solitary adjacent failures at 9 and 11 months, respectively.
Conclusion
Isolated local failures of the unirradiated adjacent vertebral bodies may occur in <5% of patients with isolated spinal metastasis. On the basis of the data, the current practice of irradiating one vertebral body above and below seems unnecessary and could be revised to irradiate only the involved level(s) of the spine metastasis.

Wow.... a relevant clinical question being asked and then answered... in the Red Journal of all places!!
 
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A somewhat related question - who's radiating the entire hardware when treating limbs with post-op RT after orthopedic stabilization? Sometimes you'd have to cover the entire limb which just seems excessive.
 
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I've stopped doing that. I haven't come across a case of progression caused by tumor pushed down by the rod/nail. If anyone has, please share pictures.
 
A somewhat related question - who's radiating the entire hardware when treating limbs with post-op RT after orthopedic stabilization? Sometimes you'd have to cover the entire limb which just seems excessive.
I've stopped doing that. I haven't come across a case of progression caused by tumor pushed down by the rod/nail. If anyone has, please share pictures.


Sometimes I cover it all, sometimes I don't. I will try to conceptualize where the nail came in from and sometimes cover more in the direction it was traveling to account for "pushed" tumor cells. Perhaps this is bogus, but at least I thought about it.
 
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This one I actually still do in most cases, particularly when you know the rod was rammed through tumor. It makes conceptual sense to me and I haven't run into any toxicities that have made me reconsider.
 
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