ophthalmology with limited/no research

[premed1234567891011]

I'm an MS1 interested in ophthalmology and a few other more competitive specialties. The problem is I have 0 interest in research. I'd much rather devote my free time to volunteer activities and hobbies I'm passionate about. I go to a top 20 and many of my classmates are super brilliant and really passionate about research and have already gotten involved with projects, which is stressing me out a bit because I haven't really even thought about getting involved in research. How hard will it be for me to match into ophtho or one of the other more competitive specialties if I don't have research experience?

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[Redpancreas]

I'm an MS1 interested in ophthalmology and a few other more competitive specialties. The problem is I have 0 interest in research. I'd much rather devote my free time to volunteer activities and hobbies I'm passionate about. I go to a top 20 and many of my classmates are super brilliant and really passionate about research and have already gotten involved with projects, which is stressing me out a bit because I haven't really even thought about getting involved in research. How hard will it be for me to match into ophtho or one of the other more competitive specialties if I don't have research experience?

You need it. I was unmotivated about research too, but as I'm getting more involved as an M4 I'm realizing there's not much to it. I did 2-3 small projects which only led to posters (not enough data) where I gathered the data, analyzed it with excel, and then made a poster with PPT and I was doing it wrong. The way you find research is somehow get in touch with the Optho department. They'll mention some study they're doing which involves manually collecting data from an EMR (not sure why EMRs don't have data-mining options in today's age of information) and offer to be their scut monkey. Register for the EMR, do the stupid HIPPA things, and then go through the charts and input the required variables into a spreadsheet (being good at Excel helps). If you do that in a timely manner, they'll be impressed and either give you more or offer you a larger role in writing the manuscript, etc. It would have been hard to do this as a M1-3 in retrospect because I'd probably have procrastinated with other important stuff to do, but looking back what I would have done differently is allocated the least hour of work to doing this every single day and I might have knocked out lots of chart reviews. Don't worry about the subject of the project either, it doesn't have to be ground-breaking, it could be something as simple as looking to see if patients who had cataract surgery had X, Y, Z complications. From that you can look at the EMR and find how many days it took for those complications to emerge, which type of technique/surgery was associated to those complications, etc. Anyways, that's usually what the attendings/fellows figure out, you just have to do the scut.

Also, the ideal time to get started on this is during summer break. For now, besides trying to secure a summer position (time to do that is now) just focus on classes. The ideal position would be one where you're basically paired with an Optho physician and you can spend some time shadowing and then some time doing chart reviews. Don't worry about past experience being a selection criteria, just apply!

 

[Psai]

Without research you're going to havea bad time.

 

[Anti-PD1]

Ophthalmology is highly coveted. Dance or move along.

 

[Snoopy2006]

The odds will be against you.

I don't have research data (the San Francisco match data I've found doesn't seem to contain it: https://www.sfmatch.org/PDFFilesDisplay/Ophthalmology_Residency_Stats_2017.pdf) but anecdotally most people I know of had at least several projects/pubs in their field. At my institution, my understanding (from speaking to ophtho residents) is thats it's almost unheard of to interview people without research.

Certain fields in medicine are competitive for a reason. Not being "passionate" about research doesn't get you in over fellow students that have put in the time and effort. If you're dead set on not doing research, I'd explore other fields.

That said, it's still early. Deciding early on a field and getting friendly with your home department / working on projects over 4 years can make a tremendous difference in your application, but most people aren't lucky enough to make a specialty decision that early. I didn't get started on research until M3 year and did fine. It's fine to take your first year of medical school to acclimate, do well in classes, explore fields, and then tackle research projects later on.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

You need it if you want to have a decent chance matching.

 

[GoldenFish]

Your school reputation will carry you far if you have good scores. Your app will look much better with at least some ophtho research on board - I would try and at least have a case report or two under your belt, the likes of which can be knocked out in a weekend.

 

[Osteoth]

Ophthalmology is highly coveted. Dance or move along.

Your 2nd sentence got me, dunno why lmao

 

[Anti-PD1]

Your 2nd sentence got me, dunno why lmao

Lol, I was in a mood. People asking smh questions... (love you OP)

 

[Medin2017]

Your school reputation will carry you far if you have good scores. Your app will look much better with at least some ophtho research on board - I would try and at least have a case report or two under your belt, the likes of which can be knocked out in a weekend.

Where do you find these sort of research experiences? The only ones offered at my school are during the entire summer like 8-5...

 

[Frogger27]

Where do you find these sort of research experiences? The only ones offered at my school are during the entire summer like 8-5...

There are a number of types of "publications" that can be completed in a very short period.... case reports, letter-to-editors, editorials, etc all come to mind. Best way to find these experiences is to go to your physician/research mentor and ask if he has any interesting cases worth writing up.... or for a letter to editor you can find an interesting article (in their area of expertise obviously) and approach them and ask to discuss the article with them because you are thinking of writing a letter to editor of the journal.

Pretty much find a mentor where you are clear about your expectations (NEED **** PUBLISHED) and hopefully they will help you achieve your goals

 

[CoolPenguin]

To be fair, it depends on the programs you're applying to. Ophtho has many smaller clinically oriented programs that will be more forgiving of limited to no research. Obviously the big names will require not only 1, but several pubs. On the interview trail, I found some programs almost apologetic for not being strong on research themselves and that their programs were more geared towards clinical medicine. I only had one unfinished project (I didn't specify it would never get finished) and still matched at my top choice. You do have to have good scores, honors, and LOR. These will go further than research. I would not sacrifice the former for the latter if I had to choose.

 

[turica]

Regarding this question..

Does the research HAVE to be optho related? Undoubtedly it is better.. but is it expected? Or is it just having research, posters, pubs etc?

 

[begoood95]

Regarding this question..

Does the research HAVE to be optho related? Undoubtedly it is better.. but is it expected? Or is it just having research, posters, pubs etc?

Don't mind me, I'm a lowly pre-med who's yet to be accepted. However, because I've had some interest in ophthalmology I've asked some MS4s I've met on the interview trail about research specifically. What they said was that it's better but not necessarily a deal-breaker if you don't have ophtho-related research. In order of best case to not-best-but-not-terrible to disadvantaged:

1. Ophtho research
2. Any research
3. No research

 

[Gray Fox]

Don't mind me, I'm a lowly pre-med who's yet to be accepted. However, because I've had some interest in ophthalmology I've asked some MS4s I've met on the interview trail about research specifically. What they said was that it's better but not necessarily a deal-breaker if you don't have ophtho-related research. In order of best case to not-best-but-not-terrible to disadvantaged:

1. Ophtho research
2. Any research
3. No research

I've had friends match Ophtho, including 2 at Bascom (arguably #1). If you're a stats rockstar (crushed STEPs, all H's, etc.), then yeah, maybe you can get away without research, although I have yet to hear of any applicants without it. But if you're average or below average, you can bet you need the research to buff up your app--the lack of research can end up being a "deal-breaker" as in you not matching. If you're going ROAD, do the research. Really simple concept.

 

[DokterMom]

Ophtho is one of those fields many (most?) pre-meds never even considered, or more likely, considered only after rotating through and/or receiving a STEP 1 score strong enough to support it. So coming late to the game isn't going to be fatal.

But -- once you decide Ophtho is of interest to you, do your activities demonstrate that interest? Do your actions show an 'explore, dive in, commit' pattern?

 

[turica]

Ophtho is one of those fields many (most?) pre-meds never even considered, or more likely, considered only after rotating through and/or receiving a STEP 1 score strong enough to support it. So coming late to the game isn't going to be fatal.

But -- once you decide Ophtho is of interest to you, do your activities demonstrate that interest? Do your actions show an 'explore, dive in, commit' pattern?

Not gonna lie.. I don't really have anything to back that interest

I have between now and June (when apps start) to exemplify that interest

STEP 1: 250
Only honored Family Med; Passed IM and Surgery (3 rotations to go) [No high passes in our system]
2 Poster Presentations, 2 Oral presentations, 1 Publication and more to come that I am working on at the moment

I definitely think I just got interested in it. I'd need to shadow a doctor so maybe I can fit a week of that in my spring break but is that even enough?

Not too sure what else I could do?

I could possibly change one of my research projects into an ophtho research since I haven't got into it that far

Any other suggestions on how to show that I am interested? lol - it's just such a cram

 

[turica]

Anyone know average # of publications or presentations/abstracts/posters for ophtho or prelim internal?

I couldn't find that info in the NRMP or SF charts

 

[Medin2017]

There are a number of types of "publications" that can be completed in a very short period.... case reports, letter-to-editors, editorials, etc all come to mind. Best way to find these experiences is to go to your physician/research mentor and ask if he has any interesting cases worth writing up.... or for a letter to editor you can find an interesting article (in their area of expertise obviously) and approach them and ask to discuss the article with them because you are thinking of writing a letter to editor of the journal.

Pretty much find a mentor where you are clear about your expectations (NEED **** PUBLISHED) and hopefully they will help you achieve your goals

Do interviewers not see through that? I'll probably ask some upperclassmen interested in the same specialty as me what they know about it. My school mainly does MS1 summer stuff like I said unfortunately

 

[W19]

Ophtho starting salary is low according to CiM...

 

[CoolPenguin]

Regarding whether research must be Ophtho related; again depends on the program. There are so many rock star applicants with not only ophtho pubs but several ophtho pubs. It’s not uncommon however to have unrelated research as about half of applicants decide late on ophtho.

 

[CoolPenguin]

Ophtho starting salary is low according to CiM...

I smell a troll

 

[W19]

I smell a troll

Clinical Practice
....................................Low........... Median......... High
Starting salaries.......$ 154,762...... $ 250,000........ $ 339,000
All physicians ............$ 307,432...... $ 407,272......... $ 553,364

Credit to aamc.org

 

[CoolPenguin]

starting salaries are just that; initial offers for new associates. Every specialty has these. Ophtho tends to pay less for new grads, that is true. But average non-partner income is ~ 300k. Partners tend to be closer to 500k. Depending on practice set up you can make 7 figures. Ophtho is unique in that the sky is the limit. Not true in most other fields. And we’re not even mentioning Ophtho subspecialties.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

To be fair, it depends on the programs you're applying to. Ophtho has many smaller clinically oriented programs that will be more forgiving of limited to no research. Obviously the big names will require not only 1, but several pubs. On the interview trail, I found some programs almost apologetic for not being strong on research themselves and that their programs were more geared towards clinical medicine. I only had one unfinished project (I didn't specify it would never get finished) and still matched at my top choice. You do have to have good scores, honors, and LOR. These will go further than research. I would not sacrifice the former for the latter if I had to choose.

Do you happen to,have a list of what the smaller clinically oriented programs are?

 

[Chelsea FC]

Most of the research students this year did so because of ophthalmology

 

[Atom612]

You need it. I was unmotivated about research too, but as I'm getting more involved as an M4 I'm realizing there's not much to it. I did 2-3 small projects which only led to posters (not enough data) where I gathered the data, analyzed it with excel, and then made a poster with PPT and I was doing it wrong. The way you find research is somehow get in touch with the Optho department. They'll mention some study they're doing which involves manually collecting data from an EMR (not sure why EMRs don't have data-mining options in today's age of information) and offer to be their scut monkey. Register for the EMR, do the stupid HIPPA things, and then go through the charts and input the required variables into a spreadsheet (being good at Excel helps). If you do that in a timely manner, they'll be impressed and either give you more or offer you a larger role in writing the manuscript, etc. It would have been hard to do this as a M1-3 in retrospect because I'd probably have procrastinated with other important stuff to do, but looking back what I would have done differently is allocated the least hour of work to doing this every single day and I might have knocked out lots of chart reviews. Don't worry about the subject of the project either, it doesn't have to be ground-breaking, it could be something as simple as looking to see if patients who had cataract surgery had X, Y, Z complications. From that you can look at the EMR and find how many days it took for those complications to emerge, which type of technique/surgery was associated to those complications, etc. Anyways, that's usually what the attendings/fellows figure out, you just have to do the scut.

Also, the ideal time to get started on this is during summer break. For now, besides trying to secure a summer position (time to do that is now) just focus on classes. The ideal position would be one where you're basically paired with an Optho physician and you can spend some time shadowing and then some time doing chart reviews. Don't worry about past experience being a selection criteria, just apply!

Do you have any advice for someone who doesn't have a robust statistics background (only took the requisite Bio Stats class sophomore year in college) to get better at doing this type of stuff? I really want to do clinical research but don't really have much experience at analyzing data or crunching numbers.

There are a number of types of "publications" that can be completed in a very short period.... case reports, letter-to-editors, editorials, etc all come to mind. Best way to find these experiences is to go to your physician/research mentor and ask if he has any interesting cases worth writing up.... or for a letter to editor you can find an interesting article (in their area of expertise obviously) and approach them and ask to discuss the article with them because you are thinking of writing a letter to editor of the journal.

Pretty much find a mentor where you are clear about your expectations (NEED **** PUBLISHED) and hopefully they will help you achieve your goals

Is there a reputable guide or tutorials online that I could use to familiarize myself with the process of how to do the bolded? I haven't ever done any case reports or drafted up any sort of research proposal in the past, but want to get started in clinical research.

 

[sammiesings]

i know someone who matched nyu optho without any publications. she had research experience but wasn't productive. so guess at the very minimum you should make some attempts at caring about research on paper.

 

[idkididk]

To be fair, it depends on the programs you're applying to. Ophtho has many smaller clinically oriented programs that will be more forgiving of limited to no research. Obviously the big names will require not only 1, but several pubs. On the interview trail, I found some programs almost apologetic for not being strong on research themselves and that their programs were more geared towards clinical medicine. I only had one unfinished project (I didn't specify it would never get finished) and still matched at my top choice. You do have to have good scores, honors, and LOR. These will go further than research. I would not sacrifice the former for the latter if I had to choose.

Do you mean you only had 1 (unfinished) research experience listed on your app, or that only 1 of your projects was unfinished? I don't think I'm going to finish the project that I started lol..

 

[Iris42]

You need it. I was unmotivated about research too, but as I'm getting more involved as an M4 I'm realizing there's not much to it. I did 2-3 small projects which only led to posters (not enough data) where I gathered the data, analyzed it with excel, and then made a poster with PPT and I was doing it wrong. The way you find research is somehow get in touch with the Optho department. They'll mention some study they're doing which involves manually collecting data from an EMR (not sure why EMRs don't have data-mining options in today's age of information) and offer to be their scut monkey. Register for the EMR, do the stupid HIPPA things, and then go through the charts and input the required variables into a spreadsheet (being good at Excel helps). If you do that in a timely manner, they'll be impressed and either give you more or offer you a larger role in writing the manuscript, etc. It would have been hard to do this as a M1-3 in retrospect because I'd probably have procrastinated with other important stuff to do, but looking back what I would have done differently is allocated the least hour of work to doing this every single day and I might have knocked out lots of chart reviews. Don't worry about the subject of the project either, it doesn't have to be ground-breaking, it could be something as simple as looking to see if patients who had cataract surgery had X, Y, Z complications. From that you can look at the EMR and find how many days it took for those complications to emerge, which type of technique/surgery was associated to those complications, etc. Anyways, that's usually what the attendings/fellows figure out, you just have to do the scut.

Also, the ideal time to get started on this is during summer break. For now, besides trying to secure a summer position (time to do that is now) just focus on classes. The ideal position would be one where you're basically paired with an Optho physician and you can spend some time shadowing and then some time doing chart reviews. Don't worry about past experience being a selection criteria, just apply!

I'm a MS1 considering joining one of these data mining type projects, but there are already 5 other students (some MS3) who have been working on this database for 1-2 years and still no publications....is that a bad sign?

 

[Elessar]

I'm a MS1 considering joining one of these data mining type projects, but there are already 5 other students (some MS3) who have been working on this database for 1-2 years and still no publications....is that a bad sign?

Yes that’s a bad sign. A simple chart review like you’re describing should yield a publication within 1-3 months (or at least an abstract/poster). If it’s been over a year with no results, I’d say that’s a red flag.