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What are your go to OR shoes that won't make my feet kill me at the end of the day?

Skechers Work. Lighter than Danskos, comfy, and most importantly wipe-able. I was actually admiring them yesterday as I was digging out pieces of meat out of the grooves after a bad acetabulum case.


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Can you talk about surgical failure/complications?
How has the way you have dealt with it from the beginning of your career (early residency) til now changed?
What are the most important things to keep in mind when working through it?
How has it made you stronger/the surgeon you are today?
 
It was just another opportunity to teach and mentor. I had never heard of SDN when I was in medical school, or even residency. Basically I was googling around and came across it, and liked what I saw. I was at a lull in terms of mentoring at the time, and had some free time, so I started the thread, and just never stopped. I had no preconceived notions about the site. Personally, having been on it for a while, I do not really understand why somebody would have a bad view of it. I guess people just don’t really appreciate brutal honesty that much.


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This place was basically my premed advisor, because my school's premed advisors were terrible.
I obviously took the info with a grain of salt, but it was better than no info on such a confusing/convoluted process. I have a lot of gratitude for the doctors and faculty on here who help people out.
 
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I bit personal question if you dont mind, how much debt did you graduate with and how long has it taken/ do you expect it to take to pay it off?
 
Can you talk about surgical failure/complications?
How has the way you have dealt with it from the beginning of your career (early residency) til now changed?
What are the most important things to keep in mind when working through it?
How has it made you stronger/the surgeon you are today?

When you’re a resident, you don’t worry about complications, not in any meaningful way, because they aren’t your patients. When you’re an attending you question your decisions a lot. Fortunately in trauma, there isn’t much in terms of agonizing...unlike elective stuff. That’s part of why i did trauma. I didn’t want the mental anguish of wondering “should I have really done that total knee/spine/etc case” if the patient got a complication.

I think complications keep you humble, and teach you that no matter how skilled you are, you still make mistakes. Or even if you don’t make any mistakes, patients still get complications, as a result of being old or ill or diabetic or smokers and that affects outcomes. The only thing the surgeon can control is their own hands. That’s very sobering.

When you have a complication and are working through it, do your best to understand why it happened, and modify the factors in your control to prevent it from happening in the future. Also be honest with your patients...the vast majority of the time, they will appreciate it, as long as you show that you care. Some of the families who love me the most are those who had nonunions or other problems, or infections where my fixation failed. If you show concern, talk to family, call them to ask how the patient is doing, accommodate them, it will go a long way...as long as you do it out of genuine concern and they don’t feel like you’re just trying to cover your ass. You can do that without placing blame on yourself—I often say, “I’m sorry this happened. It is upsetting to you obviously and also upsetting to me, because i wanted you to have a successful outcome. I wish it had not, we did x y and z to try and prevent it, but because of a b and c factors, it happened. Here is how we try to solve it.” It is concern that has to come through, not fear or blame or pride that your magic hands somehow didn’t work.


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I bit personal question if you dont mind, how much debt did you graduate with and how long has it taken/ do you expect it to take to pay it off?

Zero. I had a full ride to college on scholarship and my family, fortunately, paid for med school (I went to a state school so was not expensive). In terms of amount of debt, I don’t know what the average is but I imagine it depends on how expensive the school is. I asked some of my friends and got varied answers, which seem to depend on what is going on in their lives and what they need (house, family etc). One has a 600K debt (from MD and an MPH) and will take 20 years to pay it. Another has 150K and about 10 years.


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This place was basically my premed advisor, because my school's premed advisors were terrible.
I obviously took the info with a grain of salt, but it was better than no info on such a confusing/convoluted process. I have a lot of gratitude for the doctors and faculty on here who help people out.

Yeah I hear a lot of griping about premed advisors and the dumb advice they give. Thank god I never had one...I did stuff on my own.


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Zero. I had a full ride to college on scholarship and my family, fortunately, paid for med school (I went to a state school so was not expensive). In terms of amount of debt, I don’t know what the average is but I imagine it depends on how expensive the school is. I asked some of my friends and got varied answers, which seem to depend on what is going on in their lives and what they need (house, family etc). One has a 600K debt (from MD and an MPH) and will take 20 years to pay it.


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Wow, very nice.

Friend in orthopedics?
 
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Yeah I hear a lot of griping about premed advisors and the dumb advice they give. Thank god I never had one...I did stuff on my own.


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Mine basically told me I would never get in anywhere, didn't help with planning post bac years, didn't help with applying, and only contacted me after I finished all my secondaries to tell me to apply to more DO schools to increase my chances of an acceptance. I cobbled together my plans from scratch after reading a ton online and hoping for the best.

Of course, now that I got 6 acceptances they're "so happy for my success" :rolleyes:
 
Mine basically told me I would never get in anywhere, didn't help with planning post bac years, didn't help with applying, and only contacted me after I finished all my secondaries to tell me to apply to more DO schools to increase my chances of an acceptance. I cobbled together my plans from scratch after reading a ton online and hoping for the best.

Of course, now that I got 6 acceptances they're "so happy for my success" :rolleyes:

Congratulations. That is a great accomplishment.


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When you’re a resident, you don’t worry about complications, not in any meaningful way, because they aren’t your patients. When you’re an attending you question your decisions a lot. Fortunately in trauma, there isn’t much in terms of agonizing...unlike elective stuff. That’s part of why i did trauma. I didn’t want the mental anguish of wondering “should I have really done that total knee/spine/etc case” if the patient got a complication.

I think complications keep you humble, and teach you that no matter how skilled you are, you still make mistakes. Or even if you don’t make any mistakes, patients still get complications, as a result of being old or ill or diabetic or smokers and that affects outcomes. The only thing the surgeon can control is their own hands. That’s very sobering.

When you have a complication and are working through it, do your best to understand why it happened, and modify the factors in your control to prevent it from happening in the future. Also be honest with your patients...the vast majority of the time, they will appreciate it, as long as you show that you care. Some of the families who love me the most are those who had nonunions or other problems, or infections where my fixation failed. If you show concern, talk to family, call them to ask how the patient is doing, accommodate them, it will go a long way...as long as you do it out of genuine concern and they don’t feel like you’re just trying to cover your ass. You can do that without placing blame on yourself—I often say, “I’m sorry this happened. It is upsetting to you obviously and also upsetting to me, because i wanted you to have a successful outcome. I wish it had not, we did x y and z to try and prevent it, but because of a b and c factors, it happened. Here is how we try to solve it.” It is concern that has to come through, not fear or blame or pride that your magic hands somehow didn’t work.


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Pft what kind of surgeon reflects on their decision making and owns up to their mistakes? A real surgeon would just blame anesthesia and get on with their day.
 
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Pft what kind of surgeon reflects on their decision making and owns up to their mistakes? A real surgeon would just blame anesthesia and get on with their day.

Haha. Sounds like you need to get to know some more surgeons... ;)
I don’t think I can blame a screw getting stripped (last night at 10pm causing me to erupt into a tirade of f-words) on anesthesia. I wish I could!! Haha


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If you come from a research heavy med school or have done a research year, then no. They may look at you funny if you have like 40 publications (that has happened), but generally it’s not seen as a deficit in any way.


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Do you think this holds true even at the smaller community programs? I have quite a few near my hometown that I'm interested in.
 
Do you think this holds true even at the smaller community programs? I have quite a few near my hometown that I'm interested in.

What do you mean? I think ortho is so competitive that any program will expect you to be involved in research in some way. I think certainly the community programs won’t place as high of an emphasis on research as academic programs, however.


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Just wanted to say I can totally see why you don't like acetabular fractures...I haven't rotate much with ortho team but was on trauma. Omfg, the amount of bleeding!!
 
Just wanted to say I can totally see why you don't like acetabular fractures...I haven't rotate much with ortho team but was on trauma. Omfg, the amount of bleeding!!

Depends on the fracture. I did one this week and only had 100cc blood loss. You have to be careful in your dissection. I don’t like acetabulums because of the potential to damage vital structures and endanger the person’s life.


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Just wanted to say I can totally see why you don't like acetabular fractures...I haven't rotate much with ortho team but was on trauma. Omfg, the amount of bleeding!!

Depends, a posterior wall (by far the most common acetabular Fx) is rather simple to fix - most of the times. Blood loss is not much of an issue unless you really start dissecting down muscles.

Anything fixed through the anterior approaches, things can go south in a hurry I.e if you get into structures that are vital.
 
Hi SDNers,

I have some free time and so am happy to answer any questions you may have about the myths and realities of orthopaedics, resident life, and general questions. Just avoid the "what are my chances with score X" questions-- so many better posts and options on this site for that. Orthogate is also a good site for their "ask the attending" section.

A bit about me: orthopaedic trauma attending, female, in my 30s, practicing in an academic setting in the US. Did my med school (allopathic/MD, if that matters), residency and fellowship training in the Northeast (though not all in the same place/state). My practice includes admin/research/education/mentorship responsibilities as well.

Ask away.
Hello. Thanks for this opportunity to ask you.
Did you know any IMGs that were accepted in otrho residency?
 
What advice would you have for a student who is interested in pursuing a surgical specialty but is worried that his/her procedural skills might hold back his/her career (i.e- he/she is not 'good' at surgery)?
 
What advice would you have for a student who is interested in pursuing a surgical specialty but is worried that his/her procedural skills might hold back his/her career (i.e- he/she is not 'good' at surgery)?

As a student, you cannot gauge how “good at surgery” you are. At all. You learn that in residency. What you need to assess in yourself are your abilities to work hard, be committed, have camaraderie, and be prepared to make personal sacrifices. Sure, some residents have better hands than others… But skills like that can be taught, provided the person is willing to learn.


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If you were primarily interested in spinal surgery, would you have chosen to go the ortho or neurosurg route and why? Thanks in advance
 
If you were primarily interested in spinal surgery, would you have chosen to go the ortho or neurosurg route and why? Thanks in advance

Difficult to answer, because I absolutely despise spine due to the horrible complications, and most importantly the patient population, half of them are drug seekers and the other half never actually get better. I love ortho as a whole, and have not had much experience with neurosurgery, but I think I would still choose ortho because of the manual work involved. Neurosurgery seems to be a lot of physiology, monitoring, but brain surgeries in and of themselves are rare. I don’t see them operating too much outside of the spine. I feel like I would get bored.


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How common are residency applicants who make the last minute switch from nsurg to ortho? How can someone who has heavy nsurg research involvement in M1&2 show that they're now more passionate about ortho (after having shadowed/learned more/etc.? Would a research year be a must?
 
How common are residency applicants who make the last minute switch from nsurg to ortho? How can someone who has heavy nsurg research involvement in M1&2 show that they're now more passionate about ortho (after having shadowed/learned more/etc.? Would a research year be a must?

For the first question, not common. For the second question, it would have to depend on their grades, but they would definitely need to get some Ortho research under their belt and have good letters.


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What is your favorite pimp question that you've asked or been asked?
 
What is your favorite pimp question that you've asked or been asked?

"where does the term orthopaedics come from, and why is our symbol a tree?"
answer: coined by Nicholas Andry in 1741. Greek, "orthos" = straight, "paidion" = child. Scoliosis was one of the first diseases treated, and hence every ortho department symbol is a crooked young tree tied to a post that straightens as it grows, similar to bracing of scoliotic spines.
 
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"where does the term orthopaedics come from, and why is our symbol a tree?"
answer: coined by Nicholas Andry in 1741. Greek, "orthos" = straight, "paidion" = child. Scoliosis was one of the first diseases treated, and hence every ortho department symbol is a crooked young tree tied to a post that straightens as it grows, similar to bracing of scoliotic spines.

Learn something new everyday, this is awesome. Thanks!
 
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One person. But he did 4 years of brutal research to get there so he’s very atypical.

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Maybe it was the brutal research that made it 4 years for them - certainly would be faster with great research haha
 
Maybe it was the brutal research that made it 4 years for them - certainly would be faster with great research haha

Oh trust me, this was f***ing great research. At HSS, the top program in the US. It’s just that they tortured him for four years, and bled him dry in their lab, before allowing him into a spot. He, more than anyone I know, earned his position. I’ve never seen anyone work that hard and not become bitter. He took every beating, and published dozens of papers with huge citation numbers in pubmed, really good work. All without a “guarantee” of getting in. And after 4 years, seeing that he did not give up, they finally let him in. And that is how an FMG became a resident at the top program in the country.


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Congratulations. That is a great accomplishment.


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Thanks! Still wrapping my head around it to be honest... :laugh:

Question about your learning preferences, although I realize they vary widely person to person
-any good habits you wish you had started early in your education?
-any bad habits you wish you had stayed away from?
(I guess those could both apply to any lifestyle habits as well!)
 
Any tips on how to get to know physicians within a department and start making connections? How to keep the connection strong since we can't keep shadowing them forever?

When should we get to know the PD for our home program in the specialty we're interested in and best way to do so?

Are home PDs usually willing to give tips/advice if we ask?
 
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Thanks! Still wrapping my head around it to be honest... :laugh:

Question about your learning preferences, although I realize they vary widely person to person
-any good habits you wish you had started early in your education?
-any bad habits you wish you had stayed away from?
(I guess those could both apply to any lifestyle habits as well!)

The answer depends on whether you are asking about residency or medical school. The answer, though, is similar. I wish I would have studied consistently instead of cramming at the last minute. I also wish I made an effort to study things I did not like… I definitely spent much more time learning about things that actually interested me like anatomy… But these tended to be things that were a small part of what was tested.
But as you said… Everyone learns differently.


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Any tips on how to get to know physicians within a department and start making connections? How to keep the connection strong since we can't keep shadowing them forever?

When should we get to know the PD for our home program in the specialty we're interested in and best way to do so?

Are home PDs usually willing to give tips/advice if we ask?

With surgeons, contacting their administrators and asking to meet with them, coming prepared with questions, is a good bet. We generally do not like to be surprised, and if a student sets up a meeting with us to discuss their future, we are flattered. Or at least most of us are. Most surgeons will be more than happy to talk about their lives and careers. We have the egos for it, LOL…

In terms of getting to know the program director, the above advice applies, but try to get a research project with them, ask them if they are working on anything. Or, if that doesn’t work out, just ask to shadow them in the OR, find out when they are on call over the weekend and if they do cases, just show up. Most surgeons like having an extra set of hands on a weekend.

Regarding timing, if you are set on the specialty, second year would be good. Otherwise, whenever you feel comfortable approaching them and telling them this is going to be the specialty for you. And yes, at least in the realm of surgery, program directors will be happy to sit down with a student, as long as they are not blindsided and forced to set things up last minute. In terms of staying connected to them, I think you need to develop a personal connection. Or you can just ask if you can email them from time to time as questions come up in the process. Or, you could ask them to be a mentor for you, which involves actually having regular or semi-regular meetings.


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Depends on the fracture. I did one this week and only had 100cc blood loss. You have to be careful in your dissection. I don’t like acetabulums because of the potential to damage vital structures and endanger the person’s life.


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Is that like the 100 cc we have when there's a pool on the floor, 30 soaked lap pads, 400 in the cannister and a full plastic pocket in the drapes? :p
 
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Not sure if this was already asked, but if someone has the option between doing research with decent home ortho program vs strong program across the country for the summer, what should they go with in your opinion? (Im not sure how much to value productivity vs connections)
 
Not sure if this was already asked, but if someone has the option between doing research with decent home ortho program vs strong program across the country for the summer, what should they go with in your opinion? (Im not sure how much to value productivity vs connections)

If you are a strong candidate with great scores, go with the stronger program. If not, go with the Home program.


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This may seem like a weird question, but...how do you know if your ortho sub-i is going well? This is my first ortho away (no home program). The attendings here seem disgruntled and just plain mad at the system and some of it seems to be directed toward me for no apparent reason. It seems like they don't even want rotators around (a lot of bumping rotators off cases/clinic because they don't want a student). I feel like I wasted an away at a program with bitter attendings. :(

Another concern of mine...How am I supposed to ask for a LOR if I'm with a different attending every day? Should I even ask for one given that they seem angry?
 
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This may seem like a weird question, but...how do you know if your ortho sub-i is going well? This is my first ortho away (no home program). The attendings here seem disgruntled and just plain mad at the system and some of it seems to be directed toward me for no apparent reason. It seems like they don't even want rotators around (a lot of bumping rotators off cases/clinic because they don't want a student). I feel like I wasted an away at a program with bitter attendings. :(

Another concern of mine...How am I supposed to ask for a LOR if I'm with a different attending every day? Should I even ask for one given that they seem angry?

That’s a shame.... Ask the residents about the attendings. Maybe there is something going on in the program that you don’t know about that is upsetting them, some institutional thing. It likely has nothing to do with you. It certainly sounds like you should not be asking for a letter unless you spend more than a day with a particular surgeon. Can you ask the rotation coordinator or one of the residents to ensure that you spend some time with the attending who seems the least grumpy?


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quick question...how long does it typically take a surgical subspecialist (ENT, ortho, GU, etc) to get busy in the office/OR? I'm obviously only talking in general since I know location/practice setup/etc all come into play. But for instance, lets say you join a multispecialty group and have some referrals built in...even so, I"m sure you only are seeing maybe like 1-2 patients a day for the first few weeks but when can one expect to be seeing ~20 patients consistently? About a year or so?

It seems like most first job offers whether it is private practice or hospital employed offer 2-3 year salary gaurantees so I'm assuming that by year 2, one should be busy enough to justify their salary +/- bonuses?
 
quick question...how long does it typically take a surgical subspecialist (ENT, ortho, GU, etc) to get busy in the office/OR? I'm obviously only talking in general since I know location/practice setup/etc all come into play. But for instance, lets say you join a multispecialty group and have some referrals built in...even so, I"m sure you only are seeing maybe like 1-2 patients a day for the first few weeks but when can one expect to be seeing ~20 patients consistently? About a year or so?

It seems like most first job offers whether it is private practice or hospital employed offer 2-3 year salary gaurantees so I'm assuming that by year 2, one should be busy enough to justify their salary +/- bonuses?

Depends on the group. Will be easier if you are taking over an existing practice. We had one sports person take over another’s practice, and they were busy literally from day one. If you’re coming in as a brand new person, it really depends on what your partners feed you, or how quickly you can build your market and the competition around the area. But I would say one year is the norm. I’m speaking of course only for orthopedics. I don’t know anything about the other subspecialties. I’m also not in private practice, so I don’t know much about that. My life is being fed from the emergency room.


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Thanks. I also wanted to see if you could speak on the average starting salaries in major cities (i.e. NY/LA) for orthopedic surgeons and the subspecialities (sports, hand, trauma, etc). I understand there are surveys out with some information but your insight would clearly be more accurate obviously. Again, just looking for starting salaries for the subspecialties in hospital employed vs private practice positions in those cities? Thanks so much.
 
Thanks. I also wanted to see if you could speak on the average starting salaries in major cities (i.e. NY/LA) for orthopedic surgeons and the subspecialities (sports, hand, trauma, etc). I understand there are surveys out with some information but your insight would clearly be more accurate obviously. Again, just looking for starting salaries for the subspecialties in hospital employed vs private practice positions in those cities? Thanks so much.

350-450K in major cities, plus incentives in private practice. A bit higher maybe in hospitals but private practice has a higher chance to grow. It’s also extremely dependent on the practice so it’s hard to give a number. But it’s definitely less than if you don’t go to an urban center. A friend of mine just took a job in one of the flyover states for 600K+.


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Thanks. I also wanted to see if you could speak on the average starting salaries in major cities (i.e. NY/LA) for orthopedic surgeons and the subspecialities (sports, hand, trauma, etc). I understand there are surveys out with some information but your insight would clearly be more accurate obviously. Again, just looking for starting salaries for the subspecialties in hospital employed vs private practice positions in those cities? Thanks so much.

Currently in process of finding my first job. Have interviewed at various places. All Midwest, ranging from midsized (100-300k population) to a large metro. $600k+ is more or less standard for a midsized City in the Midwest, both private and hospital employed. The difference is that private groups will give you shorter guarantee period ( 1 year vs 2 or 3 with the hospital).

Larger metro areas pay less. Private groups offering anywhere between 250k-375k, which is not a guarantee btw, it’s more of a loan. The expectation is that you’ll at least generate that much after overhead. Various formulas for each group to calculate excess production. Employed positions in the larger cities are 350k-450k with RVU model, with possibility to generate production bonus. The conversion factor is generally lower than midsized cities, thus you’ll have to work harder for that $600k than you’d in midsized cities. Not that much of a difference tho, on average about 20 percent or so.

Ultimately, you have to decide where you want to live. Also, whether you’d get busy enough to keep making that large starting salary that they offer you in smaller towns. If you’re not busy enough to justify your salary after your guarantee period, they’d appropriately cut it to your production level. For example, I was offered a job with a salary of 750k, the current guy was generating RVUs only to make about 60 percent of that. Why they thought they needed another orthopedic surgeon is beyond me, when their existing guy couldn’t even get busy to generate his nut.
 
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350-450K in major cities, plus incentives in private practice. A bit higher maybe in hospitals but private practice has a higher chance to grow. It’s also extremely dependent on the practice so it’s hard to give a number. But it’s definitely less than if you don’t go to an urban center. A friend of mine just took a job in one of the flyover states for 600K+.


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As someone who would like to live in a flyover state, that's great news :D

Lower cost of living + higher salary seems like a good gig.
 
Overall, which subspecialty of ortho do you think residents tend to dislike the most?
 
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