Osteopathic chances at Neurosurg. ?

[Emmit]

Hello all,

Step I: TBD. Shooting for 265. Most recent score prediction was 248; 7 months prior to exam date (NBME).
Research: 11 Abstracts/Presentations (Neurology). Masters Thesis. 0 Publications (excluding published presentations from research conferences/symposiums).
Work Experience: EMT (2 years). Certified Health Coach (2 years).

I am a M2 at an Osteopathic School interested in Neurosurgery. Given the apparent "bias" against DOs in surgical subspecialties and the merger happening during my match year, I am skeptical of my chances to match into a program. I understand that this is an extremely competitive specialty that attracts the most gifted students in our field, and I am afraid that my school's overall reputation, my own lack of neurosurgical publications, and relative lack-of-access to pioneers in the field may hinder my chances of matching.

Nonetheless, I want to give it my best shot. I feel as though I need to do an away rotation to gain connections and leave a good impression. I was hoping other DOs or MDs who have matched neurosurgery (or who know DO success stories) could give me some advice and/or point me in the direction of programs that have accepted DOs in the past (and what they may be looking for in a qualified applicant). Any advice that could put me ahead of the curve would be greatly appreciated.

Please note:
A) I know I have to do extremely well on the Step, and none of this matters if I don't.
B) I know I should do the rotation before I say I want to be a neurosurgeon. My motivation is more personal than that. I know this is what I want to do.
C) I know I am ahead of myself.

Thanks,
E

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[AnatomyGrey12]

0 Publications (excluding published presentations from research conferences/symposiums)

This is a massive issue. The handful of DO students who match NS have great research CVs generally.

I feel as though I need to do an away rotation to gain connections and leave a good impressi

You need to do as many aways as you can.

If you are truly dedicated then I would heavily consider (read: it might be your only chance) a research year with a neurosurgery department where you can A) get solid pubs and B) make as many connections as you possibly can. Also have a plan B but that goes without saying. You never know and if you hustle you might just be one of the very lucky few, start by getting 255+ and getting some publications.

In the terms of @SurgeDO (DO neurosurgery resident), "you have to want it with everything you have every single day."

 

[Emmit]

Thank you!

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

This is a massive issue. The handful of DO students who match NS have great research CVs generally.



You need to do as many aways as you can.

If you are truly dedicated then I would heavily consider (read: it might be your only chance) a research year with a neurosurgery department where you can A) get solid pubs and B) make as many connections as you possibly can. Also have a plan B but that goes without saying. You never know and if you hustle you might just be one of the very lucky few, start by getting 255+ and getting some publications.

In the terms of @SurgeDO (DO neurosurgery resident), "you have to want it with everything you have every single day."

I wonder if OP has a shot at former AOA programs, which typically don't factor research in as highly? He does have lots of research just no pubs and assuming he can score well on the boards and kill an audition, I don't see why he couldn't match to former AOAs with his current CV. I don't know enough about it though. If OP wants to go for acgme NS then yeah I agree maybe a research year is in order, but even then maybe someone more qualified than myself can help answer.

 

[DNC127]

If it were me, I wouldn't apply without a research year and baller letters from MD faculty from said research year

 

[sab3156]

Lack of research and lack of outstanding letters/phone calls from influential faculty is going to kill you. Step 1 needs to be good, but no Step 1 score can get a DO into neurosurgery/ortho/ophtho/ent without those things.

 

[Emmit]

Thank you all fo the advice. Does this same logic apply for former AOA programs?

Thanks,
E

 

[ortnakas]

Thank you all fo the advice. Does this same logic apply for former AOA programs?

Thanks,
E

Maybe not as dramatically, but yes. Keep in mind that, at my count, there are only six AOA neurosurgery programs currently with “pre-accreditation” or “initial accreditation.”

 

[DNC127]

Maybe not as dramatically, but yes. Keep in mind that, at my count, there are only six AOA neurosurgery programs currently with “pre-accreditation” or “initial accreditation.”

And OP also has to remember that one of these is associated with an MD school now, and whose to say the others don't have MD students with letter and research applying? Basically, every residency spot needs to be treated as an MD residency, even if they were "formerly DO".

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I wonder if OP has a shot at former AOA programs, which typically don't factor research in as highly? He does have lots of research just no pubs and assuming he can score well on the boards and kill an audition, I don't see why he couldn't match to former AOAs with his current CV. I don't know enough about it though. If OP wants to go for acgme NS then yeah I agree maybe a research year is in order, but even then maybe someone more qualified than myself can help answer.

Thank you all fo the advice. Does this same logic apply for former AOA programs?

Thank
E

Sure you might not need quite the same level of research prowess for former AOA programs, but there are only going to be like 3 that make the merger and I wouldn't be banking on those odds. If you want NS from now on then you will have to have an ACGME NS level app.

 

[libertyyne]

You need to build relationships with the places you are going to match. The previous AOA residencies may be you best bet and apply broadly. Even then some programs will not consider you. I know a few programs that would not take DO's even though they take Caribbean grads sometimes. I agree with @AnatomyGrey12 you need to build an ACGME NS level app to make it hard for them to ignore your app.

250+ step 1
3+ solid pubs
Basic science gets a lot of play
solid Letters
Solid aways
AOA
+- research year with a competitive research fellowships(howard hughes etc.)

 

[Emmit]

I appreciate all the constructive feedback from everyone. Truly thank you. I am going to have a total of 7 presentations that are published from AMA and OMED conferences. I am currently working on three papers with two separate PI's that I will try to get published soon enough, but they are large projects. I am assuming the publications regarding AMA/OMED conference presentations do not count as publications in this context (please enlighten me if I am mistaken). Looks like I need to start planning a research year.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I appreciate all the constructive feedback from everyone. Truly thank you. I am going to have a total of 7 presentations that are published from AMA and OMED conferences. I am currently working on three papers with two separate PI's that I will try to get published soon enough, but they are large projects. I am assuming the publications regarding AMA/OMED conference presentations do not count as publications in this context (please enlighten me if I am mistaken). Looks like I need to start planning a research year.

They go on ERAS under that category but no they are not publications in that sense. Publications are found on Pubmed

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I appreciate all the constructive feedback from everyone. Truly thank you. I am going to have a total of 7 presentations that are published from AMA and OMED conferences. I am currently working on three papers with two separate PI's that I will try to get published soon enough, but they are large projects. I am assuming the publications regarding AMA/OMED conference presentations do not count as publications in this context (please enlighten me if I am mistaken). Looks like I need to start planning a research year.

Sounds like you are doing everything in your power to get what you want. I hope you succeed, you certainly sound like your putting in the work. I wish more people who post these kinds of threads were doing what you are. Get it son.

 

[Spectreman]

Hello all,

Step I: TBD. Shooting for 265. Most recent score prediction was 248; 7 months prior to exam date (NBME).
Research: 11 Abstracts/Presentations (Neurology). Masters Thesis. 0 Publications (excluding published presentations from research conferences/symposiums).
Work Experience: EMT (2 years). Certified Health Coach (2 years).

I am a M2 at an Osteopathic School interested in Neurosurgery. Given the apparent "bias" against DOs in surgical subspecialties and the merger happening during my match year, I am skeptical of my chances to match into a program. I understand that this is an extremely competitive specialty that attracts the most gifted students in our field, and I am afraid that my school's overall reputation, my own lack of neurosurgical publications, and relative lack-of-access to pioneers in the field may hinder my chances of matching.

Nonetheless, I want to give it my best shot. I feel as though I need to do an away rotation to gain connections and leave a good impression. I was hoping other DOs or MDs who have matched neurosurgery (or who know DO success stories) could give me some advice and/or point me in the direction of programs that have accepted DOs in the past (and what they may be looking for in a qualified applicant). Any advice that could put me ahead of the curve would be greatly appreciated.

Please note:
A) I know I have to do extremely well on the Step, and none of this matters if I don't.
B) I know I should do the rotation before I say I want to be a neurosurgeon. My motivation is more personal than that. I know this is what I want to do.
C) I know I am ahead of myself.

Thanks,
E

How did you get a 248 prediction? Are you already running full lengths?

 

[Emmit]

How did you get a 248 prediction? Are you already running full lengths?

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

 

[libertyyne]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

**** bro, that is awesome. Good for you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

**** bro, that is awesome. Good for you.

I'm jealous. BrB gotta go do more USMLE Rx

 

[Goro]

You need to build relationships with the places you are going to match. The previous AOA residencies may be you best bet and apply broadly. Even then some programs will not consider you. I know a few programs that would not take DO's even though they take Caribbean grads sometimes. I agree with @AnatomyGrey12 you need to build an ACGME NS level app to make it hard for them to ignore your app.

250+ step 1
3+ solid pubs
Basic science gets a lot of play
solid Letters
Solid aways
AOA
+- research year with a competitive research fellowships(howard hughes etc.)

To this sage counsel, add network, network, network!!!

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

Wow. I hate myself...

 

[FistLength]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

Killing it, great job. Whatever happens, you will never regret putting everything you had in the process, live with no regrets.

 

[Spectreman]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

Yeeesh, that’s freaking amazing.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

Well, I guess I will have to follow your footsteps next summer . Great job man, you will kill those boards.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Yes. I had a prior year getting a Master degree, which gave me a head start in biochemistry and basic pathology. I used winter and summer breaks to learn most of the systems I am supposed to learn during MS-II, and I use Anki/Sketchy religiously. I finished my final system/USMLERx about a month ago and started UWORLD/Kaplan. I took my first full-length last week (NBME15).

I have never done this, but I am gonna follow you on SDN. Your going places.

For any premed who ever asks 'how do I match xxx specialty' which only 10 DO's match a year. Thats how.

 

[sab3156]

I have never done this, but I am gonna follow you on SDN. Your going places.

For any premed who ever asks 'how do I match xxx specialty' which only 10 DO's match a year. Thats how.

Research and faculty connections are way more important, though, to be honest.

 

[Spectreman]

I have never done this, but I am gonna follow you on SDN. Your going places.

For any premed who ever asks 'how do I match xxx specialty' which only 10 DO's match a year. Thats how.

You independent study med school BEFORE med school, seems about right these days.

 

[SurgeDO]

A lot of great advice here. It sounds like you got a great start on your boards which is fantastic.

If you want to be a neurosurgeon (especially as a DO), you have got to want neurosurgery with every fiber of your being. You need to start reaching out to programs (DO and MD) and start making connections. Spend some weekends and holidays shadowing neurosurgeons at residency programs—we have first years, second years, third years, and fourth years shadowing or rotating on our service all the time.

You need to have a solid understanding of the basics of neurosurgery prior to auditioning as a 4th year. I can tell when somebody just woke up one day and decided they wanted to become a neurosurgeon to impress their parents vs. the students who have been hungry for neurosurgery since their first year of medical school. Read Essential Neurosurgery by Kaye.

Finally, you need to discover what neurosurgery really is and really have a clear idea as to why you want to be a neurosurgeon. We’re not plucking benign brain tumors out of young people all day. Bread and butter neurosurgery deals a lot in arthritic spine disease in old people and managing non-operative brain bleeds in the neuro ICU that die long, drawn out deaths. A large majority of our brain tumor patients pass away within a year. There are a lot of neurosurgery consults that occur in the middle of the night and the majority of them can not wait to be seen in the weekend. I worked over 100 hours this week and still have to take call this weekend. We’re the specialty that is sued the most.

With that said, it’s the greatest specialty in medicine, and I really enjoy the patients and cases that neurosurgery brings with it.

Best of luck. If you have any questions, feel free to message me—it may take me some time to get back to you.

 

[Scrubs101]

Whoof damn bro, mad props to the effort. I came into this thread thinking I was doing alright and working hard enough, now im gonna leave this thread hoping that I can luck my way into rural NMM in North Dakota with students like you out there to be compared to.

The best advice has already been said so I’m just gonna say good luck homie, im rooting for ya.

 

[Deecee2DO]

@Goro your opinion here-do you really think a 250+ step is necessary for OP to match NS? im hearing a lot of this on this thread. I mean it cant hurt obviously the higher the better. NS is competitive but this isnt Derm plastics and Ortho were talking about here

 

[libertyyne]

@Goro your opinion here-do you really think a 250+ step is necessary for OP to match NS? im hearing a lot of this on this thread. I mean it cant hurt obviously the higher the better. NS is competitive but this isnt Derm plastics and Ortho were talking about here

Neursurgery is difficult to match in . 2014-2016 only 1 DO matched ACGME neurusurgery. After that on average 2 people matched. Do you know where those 4 people went? 3 went to one former AOA program and I cant find the last one, who I am assuming went to the other AOA program that transitioned over to ACGME.
Tableau Public
http://medicaleducationsjp.com/en/m...tal/residency-programs/neurosurgery-residency

What is even more interesting is that the program that used to take two DO's now took 1 MD this year and 1 DO. If you dont have a 250+ or if you dont have connections and 3+ pubs you are out of luck in neurosurgery.

Edit , found the other one .
Neurosurgery Residency | Carilion Clinic

This is also a previous DO program.

I dont know if any historical ACGME program has taken a DO student at this point or where that one match from 2014 went.

 

[sab3156]

@Goro your opinion here-do you really think a 250+ step is necessary for OP to match NS? im hearing a lot of this on this thread. I mean it cant hurt obviously the higher the better.

The higher the better. But a high Step 1 score is simply one small part of the larger application. The most important thing for a DO is outstanding research and letters/phone calls from influential and well-known ACGME faculty that they did this research with. Anyone who doesn't have influential faculty backing them up during the application process within one of the ultra-competitive specialties as a DO is simply gambling -> and the odds are heavily stacked against them. Step 1 is such a small part of the overall picture. It's a screening tool. Past a certain threshold, it really doesn't matter. The other factors then become extremely important, ESPECIALLY for a DO. This is what has been repeatedly told to me from influential faculty and residents/fellows involved in resident selection at tons of programs (low tier, mid tier, and the very top programs) within a specialty that isn't much different than neurosurgery in competitiveness.

NS is competitive but this isnt Derm plastics and Ortho were talking about here

Neurosurgery is very competitive. All the competitive specialties such as Neurosurgery, Ortho, Ophthalmology, Dermatology, ENT, Integrated Plastics, etc... not only do they require DOs to have a great application, the vast majority of programs in these specialties will never touch a DO unless there are connections and letters from influential faculty in the field. It is difficult to say "which is the most competitive specialty?" because there are many other factors at play other than Step 1 score.

 

[deleted950463]

According to charting outcome 2018, 3 DOs matched neurological surgery, out of 10 applied for 30% match rate. 10 NonUS IMG matched neurosurgery out of 32 applied. Still very unfair for DOs! Unfair!

 

[DNC127]

Neursurgery is difficult to match in . 2014-2016 only 1 DO matched ACGME neurusurgery. After that on average 2 people matched. Do you know where those 4 people went? 3 went to one former AOA program and I cant find the last one, who I am assuming went to the other AOA program that transitioned over to ACGME.
Tableau Public
http://medicaleducationsjp.com/en/m...tal/residency-programs/neurosurgery-residency

What is even more interesting is that the program that used to take two DO's now took 1 MD this year and 1 DO. If you dont have a 250+ or if you dont have connections and 3+ pubs you are out of luck in neurosurgery.

Edit , found the other one .
Neurosurgery Residency | Carilion Clinic

This is also a previous DO program.

I dont know if any historical ACGME program has taken a DO student at this point or where that one match from 2014 went.

Off the top of my head, I know DO's have matched at Mayo, SUNY, KU, and loma linda. It certainly happens, but its only 1 ish per year, and you have to be a baller as said above.

 

[libertyyne]

Off the top of my head, I know DO's have matched at Mayo, SUNY, KU, and loma linda. It certainly happens, but its only 1 ish per year, and you have to be a baller as said above.

Good to know. I found the Mayo Florida guy ,and Suny person. I was unable to find KU and Loma linda DO neursurgery matches. Perhaps those are the two people that matched in ACGME and the previous AOA programs only matched through the AOA match rather than ACGME.


What one takes away from this conversation is you have to have everything to match Neursurgery. ( Step score, letters, pubs, connections, rotations).

 

[DNC127]

Good to know. I found the Mayo Florida guy ,and Suny person. I was unable to find KU and Loma linda DO neursurgery matches. Perhaps those are the two people that matched in ACGME and the previous AOA programs only matched through the AOA match rather than ACGME.


What one takes away from this conversation is you have to have everything to match Neursurgery. ( Step score, letters, pubs, connections, rotations).

KU was from my school and matched in like 2009 so they would have graduated, and loma linda happened when I was a pre med so maybe they are graduated as well? Either way, doesn't really matter, as you said NS=be a baller

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I know Mizzou took a KCU grad about a decade ago. She used to be on their website as alumni but the changed the website and I’ll if you can see alumn anymore.

 

[Goro]

@Goro your opinion here-do you really think a 250+ step is necessary for OP to match NS? im hearing a lot of this on this thread. I mean it cant hurt obviously the higher the better. NS is competitive but this isnt Derm plastics and Ortho were talking about here

Necessary? No. More like 230+.
Source:https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
See page 68

 

[libertyyne]

Necessary? No. More like 230+.
Source:https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
See page 68

interview=/= match.

 

[Goro]

interview=/= match.

No interview, no match, period.
Once you get to the interview, stats become less important, compared to how good a person and team player you are. Gonnif just showed a figure on that in the very recent Step I thread:
US News Updated Step 1 scores?

And yes, we all know it's an uphill battle for DO grads.

 

[libertyyne]

No interview, no match, period.
Once you get to the interview, stats become less important, compared to how good a person and team player you are. Gonnif just showed a figure on that in the very recent Step I thread:
US News Updated Step 1 scores?

And yes, we all know it's an uphill battle for DO grads.

This is from the US seniors, The % of match goes up the higher up you are on step.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Necessary? No. More like 230+.
Source:https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
See page 68

Makes sense. And as always thank you for the evidence!

 

[Deecee2DO]

This is from the US seniors, The % of match goes up the higher up you are on step.
View attachment 240297
View attachment 240298
View attachment 240299

So basically anything over 250 you get diminishing returns. Thus, 250+ is probably unnecessary and not "required"

 

[libertyyne]

So basically anything over 250 you get diminishing returns. Thus, 250+ is probably unnecessary and not "required"

those are US MD students. If you havent noticied there is probably some bias against DO's or systematic problems in obtaining quality research and connections for DO's ergo the number of matches over the past 10 years can be counted on a your hands. Thus the "required" part. But hey, if you want to apply to ACGME neurosurgery with a 230 goodluck.

 

[Goro]

those are US MD students. If you havent noticied there is probably some bias against DO's or systematic problems in obtaining quality research and connections for DO's ergo the number of matches over the past 10 years can be counted on a your hands. Thus the "required" part. But hey, if you want to apply to ACGME neurosurgery with a 230 goodluck.

When it comes to DOs, the numbers are so few that in seems we're in the realm of Lotto winners. But the advice given in this thread is excellent.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Thank God im not applying NS then lol but I will be applying ACGME IM in hopes of specializing. I doubt a 250+ is required for that? Only an MS1 here so i can take all of the advice I can get

those are US MD students. If you havent noticied there is probably some bias against DO's or systematic problems in obtaining quality research and connections for DO's ergo the number of matches over the past 10 years can be counted on a your hands. Thus the "required" part. But hey, if you want to apply to ACGME neurosurgery with a 230 goodluck.

 

[libertyyne]

Thank God im not applying NS then lol but I will be applying ACGME IM in hopes of specializing. I doubt a 250+ is required for that? Only an MS1 here so i can take all of the advice I can get

you dont need a 250+ to match into im ACGME, just the average will do , and if you are willing to go to a less desirable location academic will also be attainable at the average .

 

[sab3156]

Thank God im not applying NS then lol but I will be applying ACGME IM in hopes of specializing. I doubt a 250+ is required for that? Only an MS1 here so i can take all of the advice I can get

Just get as high of a score as you possibly can get, do plenty of research, make plenty of connections and friends among the faculty in academic IM programs... if you want to specialize, you should go to the strongest academic program you can. If you want to achieve success, work hard, especially as a DO.

 

[lagbydesign]

We also have to remember that often, your app gets filtered out on ERAS just because of the DO degree, so that's where having someone go to bat for you comes into play. A phone call from an influential person can break open doors otherwise closed to you even with a 260+. I agree with the gist of what sab is saying.

 

[Deecee2DO]

you dont need a 250+ to match into im ACGME, just the average will do , and if you are willing to go to a less desirable location academic will also be attainable at the average .

Thats awesome thanks. Haven't done rotations yet but so far I like Endo, allergy or GI. I know the latter are more competitive. Should I stick to research in those vs endo since endo really isn't that competitive? Sorry I should probably be PMing you this stuff not really thread related

 

[libertyyne]

Thats awesome thanks. Haven't done rotations yet but so far I like Endo, allergy or GI. I know the latter are more competitive. Should I stick to research in those vs endo since endo really isn't that competitive?

I am no expert only an m2, however you should get the best step score you can, and do as much quality research you can . any research is a plus for IM. Fellowship match is a whole other game, but going to the best IM program with a history of placing people into subspecialties should be your focus right now. Especially IM programs where they have those fellowships in house.