Osteopathic medical students for the use of a MDO title

[homeboy]

It's far from dead. I know more than a few FPs and IM docs who use it. hell, I know a husband wife combo who claim that only 2 to 3 OMM procedures a day adds $30k per year for Each of them to their income. That is not hard to do at all.

In the past week, I've only used OMT on a single patient, but then again, I only have 1 half day a week of clinic.

Now THAT's a great reason to do OMM...because it will net you a higher salary. Great logic--that's exactly what patients in the US health system need to hear.

I wouldn't say OMM is 'far from dead,' but having a minutely SMALL portion of DOs keeping it on life support doesn't mean it's alive and strong.

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[Shinken]

Plenty of things have changed names or merged and done just fine, check out the wwe, prince, aba, afl, etc.

This thread gets better and better...

 

[J1515]

This thread gets better and better...

Amusing as hell, I agree...but I'm actually embarassed to call these people my colleagues. It's not the profession or the initials that are making me rethink my decision to choose DO...it's the idiots who are some day going to be working along side of me. Perhaps if we give them license plates that say "DO - Yes, I am a doctor" they will just shutup and go away?

 

[scpod]

Now THAT's a great reason to do OMM...because it will net you a higher salary.....

Nothing wrong with making money. I think it's a wonderful reason. There's a shortage of PCPs in this country. A big part of the reason is because students have a quarter of a milion dollars of debt at graduation and don't think primary care will give them a comfortable lifestyle. The ACOFP is working rather hard to fins ways to attract students to FP and making FP more lucrative is a pretty good idea, IMO. Typical FPs who do well financially do so because they perform a lot of procedures.

While altruism is a good thing, there just aren't many people who will give up a minimum of 12 years schooling after high school and not expect to be well compensated for it. If OMM is indicated, and performing it on 3 or 4 patients a day is probably normal based on the number of musculoskeletal complaints that you'll see during an office day, then it's a wonderful way to pay back those student loans. As a bonus, many of your patients will enjoy the results as well.

OMM may not be "alive and strong", as you put it, but it ain't dead yet!

 

[homeboy]

Nothing wrong with making money. I think it's a wonderful reason. There's a shortage of PCPs in this country. A big part of the reason is because students have a quarter of a milion dollars of debt at graduation and don't think primary care will give them a comfortable lifestyle. The ACOFP is working rather hard to fins ways to attract students to FP and making FP more lucrative is a pretty good idea, IMO. Typical FPs who do well financially do so because they perform a lot of procedures.

While altruism is a good thing, there just aren't many people who will give up a minimum of 12 years schooling after high school and not expect to be well compensated for it. If OMM is indicated, and performing it on 3 or 4 patients a day is probably normal based on the number of musculoskeletal complaints that you'll see during an office day, then it's a wonderful way to pay back those student loans. As a bonus, many of your patients will enjoy the results as well.

OMM may not be "alive and strong", as you put it, but it ain't dead yet!

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. I'm as capitalistic as anyone, and all for being appropriately compensated, but making a buck at the patients' and insurance companies' expense simply because one CAN is another thing.

It's absolutely NO different than physicians doing BOTOX injections...OBs can do it, dermatologists can do it, ENTs, FPs...ANYONE can do botox. Does that mean everyone SHOULD just because one CAN? Should your justification for doing botox depend on how much student loans you have to pay off, or what kind of expenses you are facing? Hardly.

And OMM may not be dead, but a handful of vocal proponents keeping it alive is not justification for universal endorsement ad infinitum.

 

[scpod]

It's absolutely NO different than physicians doing BOTOX injections...OBs can do it, dermatologists can do it, ENTs, FPs...ANYONE can do botox. Does that mean everyone SHOULD just because one CAN?....

Are you kidding me? Of course it's different. Botox is an elective procedure done for vanity. If someone comes in with low back pain and walking all hunched over, you stretch out his psoas and send him home walking upright....well, you've done him a service. Not to mention you've also saved him and his insurance company from paying for muscle relaxants and pain killers-- which is what you're likely to get from another practicioner. The patient got some immediate relief and you got paid extra for your services.

I'm saying that it isn't all that uncommon for you as an FP to have 3 or 4 patients a day where OMM is the BEST treatment available. Choosing not to use it would be silly. Choosing not to use the modifier-25 and billing a 98925 for it would be even sillier than your Botox analogy.

 

[homeboy]

Are you kidding me? Of course it's different. Botox is an elective procedure done for vanity. If someone comes in with low back pain and walking all hunched over, you stretch out his psoas and send him home walking upright....well, you've done him a service. Not to mention you've also saved him and his insurance company from paying for muscle relaxants and pain killers-- which is what you're likely to get from another practicioner. The patient got some immediate relief and you got paid extra for your services.

I'm saying that it isn't all that uncommon for you as an FP to have 3 or 4 patients a day where OMM is the BEST treatment available. Choosing not to use it would be silly. Choosing not to use the modifier-25 and billing a 98925 for it would be even sillier than your Botox analogy.

That’s not cost-conscious medicine…that’s ‘stuffing your pocket’ medicine. Sure, botox and OMT have different purposes, but they are both ubiquitous in the sense that any physician can perform them if properly educated to administer and bill, and the LOGIC is the same: more $$ for you…don’t give me this altruistic crap after you just argued about bumping your salary $30k. I’m not against docs DOING OMT, I’m against them using it as a justification to pad their salary.

 

[homeboy]

I'm saying that it isn't all that uncommon for you as an FP to have 3 or 4 patients a day where OMM is the BEST treatment available.

That's quite an overstatement.
Moreover, if manipulation is no more efficacious than NSAIDS (as the BMJ regularly cites in "Clinical Evidence Concise," for example, volumes 14--Winter 2005 and 15--Summer 2006), tell me how it's cheaper for the patient to visit you over the Wal-Mart pharmacy?

 

[scpod]

....tell me how it's cheaper for the patient to visit you over the Wal-Mart pharmacy?

Mainly, they visit us because they might have a disk problem, ibs, uti, osteoporosis, pyelonephritis, oa, multiple myeloma, pancreatitis, or a whole host of other things that present with back pain. They don't know how to determine that; we do. If it happens to be something I can fix on the spot with OMM, then they might be walking out of there with just the $10 copay they left in the front office-- no need for that trip to the Walmart pharmacy.

 

[Hernandez]

Now THAT's a great reason to do OMM...because it will net you a higher salary. Great logic--that's exactly what patients in the US health system need to hea.

I personally do not feel guilty about offering a service to those who can benefit from it. There are definitely those who perform OMM on everyone and make damn good money, I've heard rumors of up to 600K for OMM only practices in some areas. But to use but one of many examples, my 1 pt I treated last week has been complaining of hip pain for a while with the full work up. He had a horrible ant rotated pelvis and an inflair. It took 5 minutes, he felt better, what's wrong with that?

Now before you start ragging me, I assure you I am very vocal about the AOA crap on quotas and on how my program tries to force us to do OMM on everyone and I damn well expect them to back up their wild claims. OMT has it's utility, and I use it patients I feel will actually benefit from it. And if you were an FP who sees 30-40 pts a day, finding 2-4 pts a day to treat would not be hard at all.

 

[MaximusD]

Wow.

Excellent counterpoint.

 

[MaximusD]

I personally do not feel guilty about offering a service to those who can benefit from it. There are definitely those who perform OMM on everyone and make damn good money, I've heard rumors of up to 600K for OMM only practices in some areas. But to use but one of many examples, my 1 pt I treated last week has been complaining of hip pain for a while with the full work up. He had a horrible ant rotated pelvis and an inflair. It took 5 minutes, he felt better, what's wrong with that?

Now before you start ragging me, I assure you I am very vocal about the AOA crap on quotas and on how my program tries to force us to do OMM on everyone and I damn well expect them to back up their wild claims. OMT has it's utility, and I use it patients I feel will actually benefit from it. And if you were an FP who sees 30-40 pts a day, finding 2-4 pts a day to treat would not be hard at all.

I'm not much for sucking up, but I really like this mentality. You've probably said it before, but what specialty are you in?

 

[J1515]

That’s not cost-conscious medicine…that’s ‘stuffing your pocket’ medicine........... and the LOGIC is the same: more $$ for you…don’t give me this altruistic crap after you just argued about bumping your salary $30k. I’m not against docs DOING OMT, I’m against them using it as a justification to pad their salary.

Yes that's right. We should perform OMM for free instead of billing for it Nobody said anything about padding salary. Scpod said that for the 3 or 4 patients per day that can benefit from OMM, there's no reason to not do it and yes, bill for it in the process. I'm not sure what your problem is.

 

[homeboy]

Mainly, they visit us because they might have a disk problem, ibs, uti, osteoporosis, pyelonephritis, oa, multiple myeloma, pancreatitis, or a whole host of other things that present with back pain. They don't know how to determine that; we do. If it happens to be something I can fix on the spot with OMM, then they might be walking out of there with just the $10 copay they left in the front office-- no need for that trip to the Walmart pharmacy.

That's $10 for the copay and another $50 that insurance picks up...not to mention however much you end up charging for the OMT.

And having a differential list including everything from a pulled muscle to a tumor doesn't give you cart blanche. We're talking about ALREADY diagnosed musculoskeletal problems, and every piece of literature out there says OMT is no more effective than NDAIDS and muscle relaxers.

Now the ironic thing is that if DOs got reimbursed pennies on the dollar for their OMT time, you wouldn’t be giving me this argument about how much OMT benefits the patient, because the issue would be all about you, and how it’s not worth it to spend your time doing it.


And Hernandez, I’m not saying you can’t do OMT, I’m just saying if you start with the mentality that to increase your salary $30k you need to perform OMT 2-3x / day, and that’s your motivating factor, it’s not cost-conscious medicine when NSAIDS, muscle relaxers and patience will give the same benefit.

Look at the cost-benefit ratio: sure, as a provider, you’re reaping all the benefits, but at what cost to our failing healthcare system compared to what it would cost for a bottle of Equate brand ibuprofen? If you’re going to pop back into CCP 4 hours after leaving the Dr’s office, does that mean 4 hrs later you should go back to the Dr?

In doing 5 months of FP my 3rd and 4th years, averaging at LEAST 30 patients / day, I saw no where near “scpod’s 3 patients a day that I could guarantee would benefit from OMT.” 3 musculoskeletal complaints? Sure. 3 complaints that I could find justification for to bill their insurance $125 for 5 minutes of glorified physical therapy vs tell them to try some NSAIDS and toss some Flexeril samples their way? No.

 

[Animus]

We're talking about ALREADY diagnosed musculoskeletal problems, and every piece of literature out there says OMT is no more effective than NDAIDS and muscle relaxers.

I am going to have to say no on this one. OMT can have a lot more benefit than these things in a few situations I would think. Just today we had a lecture on chapman's points and the doc was telling us about the people he has treated and studies done here where OMT benefitted those patients when nothing else including drugs did much but delay the pain for awhile. A few minutes of treatment and the patient was cured of the pain.

 

[cyclohexanol]

I am going to have to say no on this one. OMT can have a lot more benefit than these things in a few situations I would think. Just today we had a lecture on chapman's points and the doc was telling us about the people he has treated and studies done here where OMT benefitted those patients when nothing else including drugs did much but delay the pain for awhile. A few minutes of treatment and the patient was cured of the pain.

post of the day

BTW, one of the docs here claimed to have resuscitated a drowning victim just by doing CV-4. Another claims to correct near and far sightedness by exercising extraoccular muscles. The **** that these guys say sometimes....

I hate kool-aid.

 

[homeboy]

I am going to have to say no on this one. OMT can have a lot more benefit than these things in a few situations I would think. Just today we had a lecture on chapman's points and the doc was telling us about the people he has treated and studies done here where OMT benefitted those patients when nothing else including drugs did much but delay the pain for awhile. A few minutes of treatment and the patient was cured of the pain.

If your OMM guru is quoting evidence based medicine for Chapman's reflexes, I'M going to have to say no to THAT one...
...where are they getting their info, the JAOA? Weak.

For every person who swears by Chapman's reflex points, there's a patient who swears by chiropractic, and a patient who swears by hyrdotherapy, etc, etc... that DOESN'T mean we should incorporate all those practices into our scope of medicine.

 

[C equals]

Boy this thread has diverted! Started with DO vs MDO and I skipped to the end and what happened?

 

[J1515]

If your OMM guru is quoting evidence based medicine for Chapman's reflexes, I'M going to have to say no to THAT one...
...where are they getting their info, the JAOA? Weak.

For every person who swears by Chapman's reflex points, there's a patient who swears by chiropractic, and a patient who swears by hyrdotherapy, etc, etc... that DOESN'T mean we should incorporate all those practices into our scope of medicine.

And some of those people earlier in this thread think our initials are the biggest problem

Any profession where you poke a patient's leg and claim it will cure bowel pain is never going to get respect, whether you call them MDO, DOM, MD,DO, etc. Thank you for bringing this up.

Yeah, the DO title is really the most important issue facing osteopathic physicians today lol

 

[Hernandez]

I'm not much for sucking up, but I really like this mentality. You've probably said it before, but what specialty are you in?

IM

And Hernandez, I’m not saying you can’t do OMT, I’m just saying if you start with the mentality that to increase your salary $30k you need to perform OMT 2-3x / day, and that’s your motivating factor, it’s not cost-conscious medicine when NSAIDS, muscle relaxers and patience will give the same benefit.

If that were my motivation, I'd be doing a **** ton more of OMT and billing for it, but that's not my motivation. That's simply a perk of having another modality that MDs do not have. Especially if you are going into a primary care field.

Look at the cost-benefit ratio: sure, as a provider, you’re reaping all the benefits, but at what cost to our failing healthcare system compared to what it would cost for a bottle of Equate brand ibuprofen? If you’re going to pop back into CCP 4 hours after leaving the Dr’s office, does that mean 4 hrs later you should go back to the Dr?

I personally do not use High velocity for that very reason. I'm more of a muscle energy fan myself. And cut the hysterics about failing health care system, the system isn't failing, it's allowing too many freeloaders and usurpers to drain off of it. And considering that insurance companies continue to post record profits while cutting reimbursements rates, I for one do not feel guilty, especially considering that my patients do get better and I use considerably less narcs for those I treat than my colleagues, I especially do not feel guilty or like some scum sucking banker. I for one find that many of my patients have had these complaints for a while and have had narcs and **** thrown at them with little more than symptom improvement which returns when the narcs are gone. most of my patients have bad habits that they pick up at work which causes the issues in the first place, so we talk it over and have them correct their bad posture and magically their issues improve substantially.

OMM isn't the cure-all for all MS issues, but it's another tool to help and if billing for it helps me get another 5 minutes to talk with the patient and help find a more lasting solution by pointing out their bad habits which are impacting their issues. All while I give them some immediate relief, then so be it. To me it's lazy to just throw meds at patients and pray that the symptoms won't return after they run out or that they do not become dependent on them or don't start popping so many NSAIDS that they develop kidney failure or errosivie gastritis. I'd rather have fewer patients per day which I'm really helping than forcing myself to herd a ton of patients through just to pay my student loans. My motto is and will always be, Treat the ****ing patient doctor, not just their symptoms. And damn straight I'm going to bill their insurance for the treatment.

 

[homeboy]

IM



If that were my motivation, I'd be doing a **** ton more of OMT and billing for it, but that's not my motivation. That's simply a perk of having another modality that MDs do not have. Especially if you are going into a primary care field.



I personally do not use High velocity for that very reason. I'm more of a muscle energy fan myself. And cut the hysterics about failing health care system, the system isn't failing, it's allowing too many freeloaders and usurpers to drain off of it. And considering that insurance companies continue to post record profits while cutting reimbursements rates, I for one do not feel guilty, especially considering that my patients do get better and I use considerably less narcs for those I treat than my colleagues, I especially do not feel guilty or like some scum sucking banker. I for one find that many of my patients have had these complaints for a while and have had narcs and **** thrown at them with little more than symptom improvement which returns when the narcs are gone. most of my patients have bad habits that they pick up at work which causes the issues in the first place, so we talk it over and have them correct their bad posture and magically their issues improve substantially.

OMM isn't the cure-all for all MS issues, but it's another tool to help and if billing for it helps me get another 5 minutes to talk with the patient and help find a more lasting solution by pointing out their bad habits which are impacting their issues. All while I give them some immediate relief, then so be it. To me it's lazy to just throw meds at patients and pray that the symptoms won't return after they run out or that they do not become dependent on them or don't start popping so many NSAIDS that they develop kidney failure or errosivie gastritis. I'd rather have fewer patients per day which I'm really helping than forcing myself to herd a ton of patients through just to pay my student loans. My motto is and will always be, Treat the ****ing patient doctor, not just their symptoms. And damn straight I'm going to bill their insurance for the treatment.

nuts

 

[J1515]

IM



If that were my motivation, I'd be doing a **** ton more of OMT and billing for it, but that's not my motivation. That's simply a perk of having another modality that MDs do not have. Especially if you are going into a primary care field.



I personally do not use High velocity for that very reason. I'm more of a muscle energy fan myself. And cut the hysterics about failing health care system, the system isn't failing, it's allowing too many freeloaders and usurpers to drain off of it. And considering that insurance companies continue to post record profits while cutting reimbursements rates, I for one do not feel guilty, especially considering that my patients do get better and I use considerably less narcs for those I treat than my colleagues, I especially do not feel guilty or like some scum sucking banker. I for one find that many of my patients have had these complaints for a while and have had narcs and **** thrown at them with little more than symptom improvement which returns when the narcs are gone. most of my patients have bad habits that they pick up at work which causes the issues in the first place, so we talk it over and have them correct their bad posture and magically their issues improve substantially.

OMM isn't the cure-all for all MS issues, but it's another tool to help and if billing for it helps me get another 5 minutes to talk with the patient and help find a more lasting solution by pointing out their bad habits which are impacting their issues. All while I give them some immediate relief, then so be it. To me it's lazy to just throw meds at patients and pray that the symptoms won't return after they run out or that they do not become dependent on them or don't start popping so many NSAIDS that they develop kidney failure or errosivie gastritis. I'd rather have fewer patients per day which I'm really helping than forcing myself to herd a ton of patients through just to pay my student loans. My motto is and will always be, Treat the ****ing patient doctor, not just their symptoms. And damn straight I'm going to bill their insurance for the treatment.

Very well said

Apparently the biggest problems facing DOs now are:

-we need to change our initials
-we shouldn't be billing for OMM (nowhere in your posts have you said that money is your motivation for performing OMM)

 

[RockfordWF]

Very well said

Apparently the biggest problems facing DOs now are:

-we need to change our initials
-we shouldn't be billing for OMM (nowhere in your posts have you said that money is your motivation for performing OMM)

It shouldn't be taught if it can't be billed. If your contention is that it shouldn't be taught, then physical therapists, massage therapists, and chiropractors should not exist (of course the latter shouldn't anyway)...

 

[J1515]

It shouldn't be taught if it can't be billed. If your contention is that it shouldn't be taught, then physical therapists, massage therapists, and chiropractors should not exist (of course the latter shouldn't anyway)...

My last post was being sarcastic. Of course I think it should be billed. I was refering to the guy who said it's wrong to collect money for OMM.

 

[homeboy]

My last post was being sarcastic. Of course I think it should be billed. I was refering to the guy who said it's wrong to collect money for OMM.

Nope, I don't think people should be billing for OMT, mainly because I don't think people should be doing OMT as a legitimate treatment unless it’s proven to give some therapeutic benefit beyond what is already out there, which it hasn’t.

We don’t base treatment modalities on what patients THINK works for them; if we did, chiropractic, hydrotherapy, lava-rock therapy, acupuncture, etc, etc… would be absolutely justified because patients SWEAR by it.

I’m not saying patients can’t get manipulation done…go ahead, pay for a chiropractor, pay for Coco down the street to put heated rocks on “pressure points” all over your body, but don’t expect all that stuff to be covered by insurance. And the same goes for OMT—because in the eyes of the AOA, popping a rib back in place is JUST AS LEGITIMATE as doing some craniosacral bull****.

And if the organization that validates your OMT treatments and fights for your practice rights to bill for them supports ALL forms of OMT under the sun, I have a hard time accepting the use of OMT at all.

That’s not naivety, that’s standards, and some people value standards over monetary gain. Are you helping some patients feel better? Sure, but that same patient might just as well find some relief from visiting another alternative-medicine practitioner. So if your logic is, you may as well benefit monetarily from the ailment of the patient rather than some schmuck chiropractor or homeopath, you’re not propagating cost-effective medicine in terms of preventing unnecessary insurance bills…you’re contributing to it.

You can give me specific examples all day long about how some lady stepped off a curb and had an upslip, and your slick OMT skills made all the difference. I’m talking in terms of OMT as a WHOLE, and I can’t in good conscience support a practice that gets its validation from the AOA.

Many of you CAN live with that on your conscience…so be it, and your wallets will be all the fatter for it. But don’t forget how few DOs follow your line of thinking…sooner or later, reality is going to catch up to the AOA and some major changes will come about. Until then, enjoy the extra income.

AND...J1515...maybe you're not aware of this, but MDs CAN have the OMT modality if they so choose...they can take CME courses to be certified to perform and bill for OMT. So, if you would, please tell me how OMT is a uniquely "osteopathic" tool...

 

[RockfordWF]

Nope, I don't think people should be billing for OMT, mainly because I don't think people should be doing OMT as a legitimate treatment unless it’s proven to give some therapeutic benefit beyond what is already out there, which it hasn’t.

We don’t base treatment modalities on what patients THINK works for them; if we did, chiropractic, hydrotherapy, lava-rock therapy, acupuncture, etc, etc… would be absolutely justified because patients SWEAR by it.

I’m not saying patients can’t get manipulation done…go ahead, pay for a chiropractor, pay for Coco down the street to put heated rocks on “pressure points” all over your body, but don’t expect all that stuff to be covered by insurance. And the same goes for OMT—because in the eyes of the AOA, popping a rib back in place is JUST AS LEGITIMATE as doing some craniosacral bull****.

And if the organization that validates your OMT treatments and fights for your practice rights to bill for them supports ALL forms of OMT under the sun, I have a hard time accepting the use of OMT at all.

That’s not naivety, that’s standards, and some people value standards over monetary gain. Are you helping some patients feel better? Sure, but that same patient might just as well find some relief from visiting another alternative-medicine practitioner. So if your logic is, you may as well benefit monetarily from the ailment of the patient rather than some schmuck chiropractor or homeopath, you’re not propagating cost-effective medicine in terms of preventing unnecessary insurance bills…you’re contributing to it.

You can give me specific examples all day long about how some lady stepped off a curb and had an upslip, and your slick OMT skills made all the difference. I’m talking in terms of OMT as a WHOLE, and I can’t in good conscience support a practice that gets its validation from the AOA.

Many of you CAN live with that on your conscience…so be it, and your wallets will be all the fatter for it. But don’t forget how few DOs follow your line of thinking…sooner or later, reality is going to catch up to the AOA and some major changes will come about. Until then, enjoy the extra income.

AND...J1515...maybe you're not aware of this, but MDs CAN have the OMT modality if they so choose...they can take CME courses to be certified to perform and bill for OMT. So, if you would, please tell me how OMT is a uniquely "osteopathic" tool...

Then you must contend that you cannot bill for physical therapy and massage therapy, as they use OMM techniques as well...

 

[homeboy]

Then you must contend that you cannot bill for physical therapy and massage therapy, as they use OMM techniques as well...

Well, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of OMM if it's just glorified PT and message therapy...

 

[RockfordWF]

Well, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of OMM if it's just glorified PT and message therapy...

WHY?

 

[scpod]

Oh...I get it now, sort of. You'd rather pump someone with drugs and "cover up" the problem-- even if some form of OMM might "solve" the problem-- just because you think the AOA is a crock of ****. I'm sure that somehow makes perfect sense in homeboy world, but I fail to see the logic. If something works, I have no problem using it. I'm there to treat my patient, not to prove some point about how awful an organization is.

I'll go one step further and say that if you COULD solve a patient's problems with OMM and instead choose to medicate them and cover up the problem, then you are commiting a moral wrong. You've put your own biases in the way of effective treatment for your patient and that's just plain wrong. Boooo!

 

[J1515]

Nope, I don't think people should be billing for OMT, mainly because I don't think people should be doing OMT as a legitimate treatment unless it’s proven to give some therapeutic benefit beyond what is already out there, which it hasn’t.

It does give a therapeutic benefit. What are you talking about? It made the patient feel better, you bill for it. What don't you understand?

AND...J1515...maybe you're not aware of this, but MDs CAN have the OMT modality if they so choose...they can take CME courses to be certified to perform and bill for OMT. So, if you would, please tell me how OMT is a uniquely "osteopathic" tool...

Are you on crack? When did I ever say it was uniquely an osteopathic tool? In fact all these *****s who want to have MD after their name but came to a DO school because of OMM, I told them they should've gone to an allopathic school (if they could've got in) and then took continuing education courses. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[homeboy]

WHY?

Because if OMM is simply PT or massage therapy, what the hell is the point of the whole osteopathic profession?

It's a rhetorical question...there is no inherent difference between OMT and PT/chiro/massage therapy, which is the whole point.

Ok, so let's say your billing for OMT is completely justified, as an alternative to traditional treatments. Now let's explore Rockford's logic, in that OMT is nothing more than glorified PT / chiropractic / massage therapy...are there other differences intrinsic to the osteopathic profession--besides OMT--what warrant a unique, separate, distinct degree?

Is prescribing to a "treat the patient, not the disease" mentality enough to justify an entirely different profession?

A few years ago, the once president of the AOA visited our school and someone posed this question in a discussion about unifiying with other DO's in European countries. His response: [sic] "There are differences you aren't even aware of...things you will learn in residency training...etc..."

I only mention this to exemplify how whacked-out our professional leadership is...they honestly and truly believe this crap. I ate dinner with the guy...him and his wife droned on and on about the "DO difference"...it was truly amazing.

J15, I'm not sure what I was smoking...must have read the wrong post.

 

[J1515]

Because if OMM is simply PT or massage therapy, what the hell is the point of the whole osteopathic profession?

It's a rhetorical question...there is no inherent difference between OMT and PT/chiro/massage therapy, which is the whole point.

Ok, so let's say your billing for OMT is completely justified, as an alternative to traditional treatments. Now let's explore Rockford's logic, in that OMT is nothing more than glorified PT / chiropractic / massage therapy...are there other differences intrinsic to the osteopathic profession--besides OMT--what warrant a unique, separate, distinct degree?

Is prescribing to a "treat the patient, not the disease" mentality enough to justify an entirely different profession?

A few years ago, the once president of the AOA visited our school and someone posed this question in a discussion about unifiying with other DO's in European countries. His response: [sic] "There are differences you aren't even aware of...things you will learn in residency training...etc..."

I only mention this to exemplify how whacked-out our professional leadership is...they honestly and truly believe this crap. I ate dinner with the guy...him and his wife droned on and on about the "DO difference"...it was truly amazing.

J15, I'm not sure what I was smoking...must have read the wrong post.

I agree with you that there are some people out there who take the whole "difference" thing way too far. 100 years ago there was a difference. Now I believe it is negligible, if not non-existent for the most part. The only thing I might say differs is palpatory skills, simply because we are forced to practice at least a few hours a week over 2 years. This is not to say I believe skull bones move or that you can feel CSF pulses, but perhaps the DO is able to palpate a musculoskeletal dysfunction more readily than an MD, and can then target said dysfunction with legit OMM techniques. Now is that hang nail on a patient's big toe really the cause of their headaches? I can't say I buy into all of that stuff and I think this is where the osteopathic profession has to come to a point over the next 10 years where they say if we can't prove technique X produces some kind of detectable change then students should not be forced to learn it (perhaps it could be available as an elective for people who want to learn it despite the lack of evidence).

With all that said, you cannot blame us, your future colleagues, for the actions and beliefs of the AOA. From the sound of it, you seem like you want what is best for the patient and for our profession to be respectable. When I say respectable I don't mean some superficial nonsense like changing the letters of our degree. I'm referring to the actual way we (DOs) practice medicine (you know, the *important* thing).

 

[travoltage]

when do u think the mdo title will go into affect, if it is the chosen replacement?

 

[homeboy]

I agree with you that there are some people out there who take the whole "difference" thing way too far. 100 years ago there was a difference. Now I believe it is negligible, if not non-existent for the most part. The only thing I might say differs is palpatory skills, simply because we are forced to practice at least a few hours a week over 2 years. This is not to say I believe skull bones move or that you can feel CSF pulses, but perhaps the DO is able to palpate a musculoskeletal dysfunction more readily than an MD, and can then target said dysfunction with legit OMM techniques. Now is that hang nail on a patient's big toe really the cause of their headaches? I can't say I buy into all of that stuff and I think this is where the osteopathic profession has to come to a point over the next 10 years where they say if we can't prove technique X produces some kind of detectable change then students should not be forced to learn it (perhaps it could be available as an elective for people who want to learn it despite the lack of evidence).

With all that said, you cannot blame us, your future colleagues, for the actions and beliefs of the AOA. From the sound of it, you seem like you want what is best for the patient and for our profession to be respectable. When I say respectable I don't mean some superficial nonsense like changing the letters of our degree. I'm referring to the actual way we (DOs) practice medicine (you know, the *important* thing).

Problem is, those propagating the “DO difference” are the ones running things, and the only people that evolve into AOA leadership positions are the ones that toe the AOA line and buy into all the crap.
I’m just so sick to death of it. I know the AOA bashing gets old, but it amazes me that DOs have been so lackadaisical and haven’t stepped up and taken charge of their profession.

 

[bth7]

when do u think the mdo title will go into affect, if it is the chosen replacement?

I think it is supposed to start on Tuesday.

 

[J1515]

Problem is, those propagating the “DO difference” are the ones running things, and the only people that evolve into AOA leadership positions are the ones that toe the AOA line and buy into all the crap.
I’m just so sick to death of it. I know the AOA bashing gets old, but it amazes me that DOs have been so lackadaisical and haven’t stepped up and taken charge of their profession.

There's nothing we can really do right now. I think over time things will have to change though. It seems like the majority of graduating DOs in this day and age know the limits of OMM and think rationally about the profession. As the profession increases its numbers (I don't agree with how they're doing that, but that's a different story) I think the people you describe will become a small minority and we will slowly start to see a change in the way osteopathic medicine is perceived.

 

[homeboy]

There's nothing we can really do right now. I think over time things will have to change though. It seems like the majority of graduating DOs in this day and age know the limits of OMM and think rationally about the profession. As the profession increases its numbers (I don't agree with how they're doing that, but that's a different story) I think the people you describe will become a small minority and we will slowly start to see a change in the way osteopathic medicine is perceived.

We'll see...people have been making these same complaints for decades.

 

[Vizsla]

I think it is supposed to start on Tuesday.

made me laugh out loud..thank you

 

[RockfordWF]

Because if OMM is simply PT or massage therapy, what the hell is the point of the whole osteopathic profession?

It's a rhetorical question...there is no inherent difference between OMT and PT/chiro/massage therapy, which is the whole point.

Ok, so let's say your billing for OMT is completely justified, as an alternative to traditional treatments. Now let's explore Rockford's logic, in that OMT is nothing more than glorified PT / chiropractic / massage therapy...are there other differences intrinsic to the osteopathic profession--besides OMT--what warrant a unique, separate, distinct degree?

Is prescribing to a "treat the patient, not the disease" mentality enough to justify an entirely different profession?

A few years ago, the once president of the AOA visited our school and someone posed this question in a discussion about unifiying with other DO's in European countries. His response: [sic] "There are differences you aren't even aware of...things you will learn in residency training...etc..."

I only mention this to exemplify how whacked-out our professional leadership is...they honestly and truly believe this crap. I ate dinner with the guy...him and his wife droned on and on about the "DO difference"...it was truly amazing.

J15, I'm not sure what I was smoking...must have read the wrong post.

You're kidding, right?

The point is that you can get 100% of your treatment from a DO and not then go see and get billed again by another person.

The DO is a distinct degree because it is the only one that COMBINES the skills of a DC/PT/MT with an MD.

 

[scpod]

The point is that you can get 100% of your treatment from a DO and not then go see and get billed again by another person.

Exactly. Granted, there are plenty of times where referral to a PT for therapy is really the best option in the long run, but there are so many things that the DO can do that normally won't occur to MDs. Case in point, the mother of one of our students was seeing an MD for TOS. They were actually going to cut out her first rib, but a visit to a DO popped that sucker back into place and the symptoms disappeared-- no surgery! Tell me that that didn't save a few bucks.

 

[WoodyJI]

I think it is supposed to start on Tuesday.

tues day? I was sort of hopping it would go in to affect write away...

 

[bth7]

tues day? I was sort of hopping it would go in to affect write away...

I try not to hop while writing myself.

bth

 

[homeboy]

You're kidding, right?

The point is that you can get 100% of your treatment from a DO and not then go see and get billed again by another person.

The DO is a distinct degree because it is the only one that COMBINES the skills of a DC/PT/MT with an MD.

Are YOU serious?? You're completely delirious if you think the DO degree is the summation of PT, DC, and massage therapy.

How many years of school have you had? Have you seen a PT practice? Do you know what they do? The ONLY portion of DOs such a scenario is applicable to are the fraction that strictly do OMM and those in PMR.

I challenge you to show me one single nephrologist…one single orthopedic surgeon…one single FP who fulfills the role of PT, DC and massage therapist. It’s not feasible…that’s why medicine has tiers…that’s why the work is divided.

DOs can perform all the tasks of a PA…an NP…a CRNA (specific to anesthesiologists)…that doesn’t mean the DO degree replaces the need for patients to visit those other providers.

I would argue that for long term musculoskeletal treatment, you’re much better going to a physical therapist who SPECIALIZES in those modalities day in and day out (or for that matter, an OMT specialist or PMR doc), versus Joe Blow, DO, who performs 2-3 OMT techniques a day.

 

[TrustDrDice]

Mainly, they visit us because they might have a disk problem, ibs, uti, osteoporosis, pyelonephritis, oa, multiple myeloma, pancreatitis, or a whole host of other things that present with back pain. They don't know how to determine that; we do. If it happens to be something I can fix on the spot with OMM, then they might be walking out of there with just the $10 copay they left in the front office-- no need for that trip to the Walmart pharmacy.

NO need for that trip to the WalMart Nurse Practitioner either

 

[cyclohexanol]

You're kidding, right?

The point is that you can get 100% of your treatment from a DO and not then go see and get billed again by another person.

The DO is a distinct degree because it is the only one that COMBINES the skills of a DC/PT/MT with an MD.

That was so pretentious I think I just vomited into the back of my mouth a little.



It's one thing to acknowledge the applications and merit of OMT, it's quite another to believe that practicing OMT for a couple hours a week for 2 years replaces 3-4 years of full-time PT education and training.

I actually want to go apologize to my DPT student friends in advance in case they read your post.

 

[spreebee]

I agree with max: MDO is just stupid. Either keep it DO or get rid of DO all together and just have one profession.

That would be too easy... You would need to be re-trained in Alleopathy...

 

[spreebee]

Very well said

Apparently the biggest problems facing DOs now are:

-we need to change our initials
-we shouldn't be billing for OMM (nowhere in your posts have you said that money is your motivation for performing OMM)

Change your initials to what? M.D.?... You are not an M.D., you are a D.O. Alleopathic is alleopathic, osteopathy is osteopathic... So it would make sense that medical doctor = alleopathic (for what it's known for), and Doctor of Osteopathy = osteopathic (D.O.), not medical - doctor - osteopathy or osteopathic - medical - doctor because the name infringes on each type and leads to the wrong idea...If you want M.D. go to an alleopathic school, if you want D.O. go to an osteopathic school... Don't change the history of the name just because you decide you don't like it after you've already joined it...Besides, initials are just initials and don't mean your not a competent doctor...

 

[homeboy]

Change your initials to what? M.D.?... You are not an M.D., you are a D.O.

Have you been reading this thread? No one is proposing that.
And getting rid of the DO profession altogether wouldn't mean we'd have to be 'retrained' in...alleopathy...I'm assuming you mean allopathic medicine. DOs can already enter ACGME residencies, so converting to LCME standards and practices for medical school would only be a formality.

 

[spreebee]

Have you been reading this thread? No one is proposing that.
And getting rid of the DO profession altogether wouldn't mean we'd have to be 'retrained' in...alleopathy...I'm assuming you mean allopathic medicine. DOs can already enter ACGME residencies, so converting to LCME standards and practices for medical school would only be a formality.

OK.. But, why is the name D.O. such a big deal to some D.O.'s? What needs to be done is just some nationwide awareness campaign so that patients don't see a difference between M.D. and D.O. It's all about educating the population because darn near a few people have heard of a D.O. in some areas of the country...

 

[bth7]

because the name infringes on each type and leads to the wrong idea...

This is a really good way of putting it.