Osteopathic vs. Caribbean

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People who matched from the Carib in the past were in an entirely different environment. 10 years ago, there were thousands less US MD and DO graduates. Things grow more and more grim each year for people that head to the islands, which tend to be both far more expensive, far less hospitable, far less supportive, and far less competitive that most DO schools. Things have been changing rapidly in undergraduate medical education, and the advice of those you know that went to the islands previously no longer applies. But they, having already completed the process and obtained a residency, no longer pay attention to what is happening to GME numbers and the number of US MD and DO graduates. Feel free to go wherever, but be aware that DO schools have far lower attrition rates and far higher overall placement rates than SGU.
Thank you for the advice. I agree that things are changing drastically. The ONLY reason Grenada is an option to me is that I absolutely hated the area at WVSOM. I appreciate you taking the time!

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I completely agree, but I'm just trying to be fair with the numbers. The Carib ruins enough lives for me to not recommend it, but the majority of SGU grads (not vast majority, but majority) end up with a residency in the US. They also have a fairly low attrition rate compared to the other Carib schools, with 90% of students completing the program (though some need an extra year or two).
I'm surprised everyone has heard such terrible things about the Caribbean. I know tons of US doctors who are SGU grads, who said they had a great experience and had no problems getting residency (recent graduates as well as older).
 
Thank you for the advice. I agree that things are changing drastically. The ONLY reason Grenada is an option to me is that I absolutely hated the area at WVSOM. I appreciate you taking the time!
No problem. Keep in mind that by going to WVSOM instead of SGU, you're also putting yourself in a better spot to do a residency where you want, and are opening up more doors so far as where you can rotate fourth year. So while SGU may seem like the better solution for right now, WVSOM will give you much more geographic flexibility for the next phase of your training (and arguably a far more important phase of your life).
 
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I'm surprised everyone has heard such terrible things about the Caribbean. I know tons of US doctors who are SGU grads, who said they had a great experience and had no problems getting residency (recent graduates as well as older).
The real problems have been hitting all of the other schools- SGU will be the last to fall. But basically, there'll be literally thousands more MD and DO students in the match by the time you're matching- about 6,000 more. Those students are going to be taking seats from someone, and the someones that are most likely to lose out are foreign students first, and weak DO students second.
 
The real problems have been hitting all of the other schools- SGU will be the last to fall. But basically, there'll be literally thousands more MD and DO students in the match by the time you're matching- about 6,000 more. Those students are going to be taking seats from someone, and the someones that are most likely to lose out are foreign students first, and weak DO students second.
You are right, and I agree with what you're saying--it makes sense. WVSOM it is. Loved the school, hated the area, but 4 years will go by fast. :) I appreciate it.
 
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You are right, and I agree with what you're saying--it makes sense. WVSOM it is. Loved the school, hated the area, but 4 years will go by fast. :) I appreciate it.
No problem.

To be perfectly honest, you won't have a whole lot of time to enjoy whatever area you're in regardless of school. Plus a nice area can be full of distractions that can make studying more of a chore than you'd like, so in a way, you're kind of setting yourself up for success come third year and the match (trying to give you some positive spin on this).
 
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No problem.

To be perfectly honest, you won't have a whole lot of time to enjoy whatever area you're in regardless of school. Plus a nice area can be full of distractions that can make studying more of a chore than you'd like, so in a way, you're kind of setting yourself up for success come third year and the match (trying to give you some positive spin on this).
Also true! Not a bad way to look at things :)
 
You are right, and I agree with what you're saying--it makes sense. WVSOM it is. Loved the school, hated the area, but 4 years will go by fast. :) I appreciate it.

During your 3rd year rotations you can try to see if you can snag a spot in Charleston, the main city.
 
Glad to see you settled on the smart choice.
 
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A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

Here's the deal: The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too!

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone.

And this is on top of the massive attrition rates for matriculating SGU students (and all other Carib diploma mills)



I'm surprised everyone has heard such terrible things about the Caribbean. I know tons of US doctors who are SGU grads, who said they had a great experience and had no problems getting residency (recent graduates as well as older).
 
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u obviously have not done ur research.

first thing you learn in medschool is to learn the difference between a question that should and should not be asked. this is something you can figure out on your own. don't waste everyone's time.
 
The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation.

@Goro : although I agree with your overall message (Carib schools = bad)

People with views like ^^ are shared by the lazy entitled high horse jerks that make egregious errors negatively impacting patient care daily. My 2 ¢
 
Confirmation bias
The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation.

@Goro : although I agree with your overall message (Carib schools = bad)

People with views like ^^ are shared by the lazy entitled high horse jerks that make egregious errors negatively impacting patient care daily. My 2 ¢
 
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Guys, I have a dilemma. Accepted to ONE US DO school, WVSOM. Accepted to St. George as well. I don't know what to do. I don't know if I could live in the WVSOM area...I felt extremely claustrophobic down there, and I really don't know if I will be happy. What would you all suggest? Any changes over the last few years in your mindsets?
I work in retail right now until I start med school next year. We just hired in a Caribbean grad to stock in the mornings (after he failed to match into a residency...twice).

He is a great stocker though.....go to WVSOM
 
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I work in retail right now until I start med school next year. We just hired in a Caribbean grad to stock in the mornings (after he failed to match into a residency...twice).

He is a great stocker though.....go to WVSOM

No... get out of here. Fareal??!
 
No... get out of here. Fareal??!
Unfortunately it is true. The guys call him "doc"....it's sad but funny.

That story alone is enough to discourage anyone from going to the Caribbean.
 
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I work in retail right now until I start med school next year. We just hired in a Caribbean grad to stock in the mornings (after he failed to match into a residency...twice).

He is a great stocker though.....go to WVSOM
That is why I am always amazed when people start these DO vs. Carib threads... You fail a class or repeat a year or pass step1 in 2nd attempt, you still have a good chance to match into a ****ty IM/FM in rural Nebraska as a DO student... If one of these things happen to you as Carib grad, you are fvcked--you just threw away 350k+....

I know everyone thinks they gonna be a special snowflake in med school, but the reality is there will be some of us that fail 1/2 classes or sit at the bottom of the class in term of rank...
 
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You are right, and I agree with what you're saying--it makes sense. WVSOM it is. Loved the school, hated the area, but 4 years will go by fast. :) I appreciate it.

You made the right decision. There may be beaches in Grenada, but you wouldn't have a ton of time to enjoy them, you'd be in much greater debt, because both tuition is a bit higher and the island is crazy expensive for everything but food, and you'd be in quite frankly a more desolate place than WV.

Also, to clarify, people aren't saying the education you'd get is going to be bad at SGU, it won't be. People are saying that your chances of finishing and your chances of matching a residency, without which your degree is useless, are less there than in WVSOM (or any DO school).

I also know plenty of recent SGU grads (as well as older ones), and they're successful, but the recent ones tell me stories of people they know failing out, how hard it was applying for residency, having to delay their graduation an extra year to pad their resumes, having to apply to 100+ IM programs to get the guaranteed 10+ interviews in order to be confident they'd match. These are the successful ones.

DO placement rate is >99%. It's rare for even the last people in the class to not get a residency by the end of it.
 
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DO placement rate is >99%. It's rare for even the last people in the class to not get a residency by the end of it.

The caveat here being that this is certainly bound to decrease when AOA residencies are completely eliminated in the next 2-5 years.
 
The caveat here being that this is certainly bound to decrease when AOA residencies are completely eliminated in the next 2-5 years.

There will be less matches into super competitive residencies I think, but matching in general? It'll stay about the same.
 
There will be less matches into super competitive residencies I think, but matching in general? It'll stay about the same.
That reasoning makes no sense. If fewer people are matching into competitive specialties then they'll surely end up in medicine or surgery or FM as a backup. There's then a snowball effect that will eventually cause those least qualified to be pushed out. Combine that with a bunch of AOA residencies that previously required nothing more than a pulse to match shutting down and you end up with an overall match rate that is bound to take a hit.
 
That reasoning makes no sense. If fewer people are matching into competitive specialties then they'll surely end up in medicine or surgery or FM as a backup. There's then a snowball effect that will eventually cause those least qualified to be pushed out. Combine that with a bunch of AOA residencies that previously required nothing more than a pulse to match shutting down and you end up with an overall match rate that is bound to take a hit.

My understanding is that there still are more residencies than us grads.

Therefore I'm suggesting a redistribution of matches.
USMD will likely outcompete most DO for competitive matches forcing them to take less competitive spots that USMD were taking before.

Sure lots of places will close, but not thousands. DOs will still match somewhere just fine.
 
That reasoning makes no sense. If fewer people are matching into competitive specialties then they'll surely end up in medicine or surgery or FM as a backup. There's then a snowball effect that will eventually cause those least qualified to be pushed out. Combine that with a bunch of AOA residencies that previously required nothing more than a pulse to match shutting down and you end up with an overall match rate that is bound to take a hit.
There'll still be a glut of osteopathic traditional rotating internships in existence, which pretty much gives every osteopathic student that wants a medical license the chance to get one, and I've never met a DO that did a TRI that didn't manage to secure a subsequent GME position afterward, even if not in their first choice specialty. Given the growth rate of GME, I highly doubt that's going to change in the near future, though there will certainly be a bit of a crunch come the mid 2020s or so that might push match rates down across the board (but likely IMG>DO>MD).
 
I don't think the merger will negatively affect the DO world like many believe it to...there are going to be DOs that sit on the accreditation board for the ACGME to make sure we aren't getting royally screwed. Also, hospitals want the best students, irregardless of credentials. If you are competitive, then you will get in somewhere.
 
I don't think the merger will negatively affect the DO world like many believe it to...there are going to be DOs that sit on the accreditation board for the ACGME to make sure we aren't getting royally screwed. Also, hospitals want the best students, irregardless of credentials. If you are competitive, then you will get in somewhere.

They won't have a voting majority so it means they can complain, but be outvoted every time.
 
I work in retail right now until I start med school next year. We just hired in a Caribbean grad to stock in the mornings (after he failed to match into a residency...twice).

He is a great stocker though.....go to WVSOM

Hahaha. I stocked for a while before med school. Never again.
 
They won't have a voting majority so it means they can complain, but be outvoted every time.
I don't think that's how it works, but that's a nice thought..
 
There'll still be a glut of osteopathic traditional rotating internships in existence, which pretty much gives every osteopathic student that wants a medical license the chance to get one, and I've never met a DO that did a TRI that didn't manage to secure a subsequent GME position afterward, even if not in their first choice specialty. Given the growth rate of GME, I highly doubt that's going to change in the near future, though there will certainly be a bit of a crunch come the mid 2020s or so that might push match rates down across the board (but likely IMG>DO>MD).
Will they still be TRI with the merger? or preliminary...
 
Will they still be TRI with the merger? or preliminary...
TRIs are completely different animals from preliminary medicine or surgery. The rotations expected can overlap with preliminary medicine, but generally are structured in a much more broad format than a prelim med internship.
 
TRIs are completely different animals from preliminary medicine or surgery. The rotations expected can overlap with preliminary medicine, but generally are structured in a much more broad format than a prelim med internship.
Will TRI be accessible to DO students with the merger? What's the point with the merger if these TRI positions won't turn into something else?
 
Will TRI be accessible to DO students with the merger? What's the point with the merger if these TRI positions won't turn into something else?
Why wouldn't they still exist? They're one of those things that is kind of unique, as you rotate through a great number of services (it's basically like a fifth year of medical school, except you're functioning at the intern level). They're designed to give you a broad base of medical knowledge, rather than giving you a foundation for either medicine or surgery, but they have enough focus that they can stand in as the first year of any non-surgical osteopathic residency (so I'd assume they'd continue to serve that function for non-surgical osteopathic-focused residencies in the future). Much like other osteopathic-focused programs, I'm sure that other students would be free to apply to them, but be ready for a month of OMM...
 
I don't think that's how it works, but that's a nice thought..
I kinda think that's exactly how it does. You ever seen a committee vote on anything.

All in favor?
All opposed?
The _____ have it.

It's really quite simple. Since you're still a premed and have free time, you should check it out.
 
Will TRI be accessible to DO students with the merger? What's the point with the merger if these TRI positions won't turn into something else?
Why wouldn't they still exist? They're one of those things that is kind of unique, as you rotate through a great number of services (it's basically like a fifth year of medical school, except you're functioning at the intern level). They're designed to give you a broad base of medical knowledge, rather than giving you a foundation for either medicine or surgery, but they have enough focus that they can stand in as the first year of any non-surgical osteopathic residency (so I'd assume they'd continue to serve that function for non-surgical osteopathic-focused residencies in the future). Much like other osteopathic-focused programs, I'm sure that other students would be free to apply to them, but be ready for a month of OMM...

The acgme version of a TRI is called a transitional year. They are very competitive because they are highly sought after by competitive subspecialty applicants who want a more chill year compared to a rigorous prelim surgery or medicine year. They're generally not the type of programs that people who fail to match end up in - those people usually end up in prelim surgery programs (which are by far the least desirable). My guess would be that TRIs would be allowed to apply for accreditation as transitional years but those that gain accreditation will likely become more competitive as US MD applicants to subspecialty fields look for a cushy year before they start their subspecialty training.
 
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I kinda think that's exactly how it does. You ever seen a committee vote on anything.

All in favor?
All opposed?
The _____ have it.

It's really quite simple. Since you're still a premed and have free time, you should check it out.

I love the little implication you put in there at the end of your post. A pre-med could be a board certified densit, a professional with a psyD degree in clinical practice, or a 15 year-old college senior. I used these examples, because each of these pre-med examples are very real people on this forum and one I know in real life and is a close friend. With that being said, can you say with confidence that I have all this free time? And for the record, politics aren't as cut and dry as you have stated here. There are many more moving parts than you give credit for. You have also forgotten to take into account HOW MANY osteopathic representatives will be on the board. So, while you would like to think everything is as black and white as one would hope it to be, it is not. So please, save your condescending remarks and be professional..you never know who is on the other side or who is watching.
 
The acgme version of a TRI is called a transitional year. They are very competitive because they are highly sought after by competitive subspecialty applicants who want a more chill year compared to a rigorous prelim surgery or medicine year. They're generally not the type of programs that people who fail to match end up in - those people usually end up in prelim surgery programs (which are by far the least desirable). My guess would be that TRIs would be allowed to apply for accreditation as transitional years but those that gain accreditation will likely become more competitive as US MD applicants to subspecialty fields look for a cushy year before they start their subspecialty training.
It'll be interesting to see how they work MDs into TRIs in that case, given the substantial required amount of OMM lol- I just highly doubt most TRIs would give MDs a serious shot, as they'd just be a pain to deal with during OMM clinics. It still remains to be seen what barriers will be in place, in general, for MDs trying to match into osteopathic-focused programs as well. Who knows though, maybe they'll match in just fine. Granted, these programs tend to be in the middle of nowhere as well, so who knows if many MDs will be willing to practice a year of bone wizardry in Nebraska just to have a cush year. It really just remains to be seen.
 
All speculation at this point..
If I had to guess pros and cons will balance each other out.
Remember, most DO programs will still have DO-led PDs...it goes both ways. It's not a one way street..
 
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I love the little implication you put in there at the end of your post. A pre-med could be a board certified densit, a professional with a psyD degree in clinical practice, or a 15 year-old college senior. I used these examples, because each of these pre-med examples are very real people on this forum and one I know in real life and is a close friend. With that being said, can you say with confidence that I have all this free time? And for the record, politics aren't as cut and dry as you have stated here. There are many more moving parts than you give credit for. You have also forgotten to take into account HOW MANY osteopathic representatives will be on the board. So, while you would like to think everything is as black and white as one would hope it to be, it is not. So please, save your condescending remarks and be professional..you never know who is on the other side or who is watching.

And they could be ninjas, alligators or the pope. None of that matters because you STILL don't know how committee majority rules voting works.

And trust me. You have more time now than you will if you matriculate into Med school.
 
And they could be ninjas, alligators or the pope. None of that matters because you STILL don't know how committee majority rules voting works.

And trust me. You have more time now than you will if you matriculate into Med school.
You are being ridiculous. I know how committees work, I have been a part of many of them. You would be a perfect presidential candidate with that attitude. Also, it's not "IF" I matriculate, it's "WHEN" I matriculate, and believe me, I know how to manage my time. I have been working well over 40 hours a week while attending 15-18 credit hour semesters for the past 5-6 years. While it may not be easier intellectually, the medical school schedule will actually provide some relief to my busy schedule since now all I have to worry about is school...
 
You are being ridiculous. I know how committees work, I have been a part of many of them. You would be a perfect presidential candidate with that attitude. Also, it's not "IF" I matriculate, it's "WHEN" I matriculate, and believe me, I know how to manage my time. I have been working well over 40 hours a week while attending 15-18 credit hour semesters for the past 5-6 years. While it may not be easier intellectually, the medical school schedule will actually provide some relief to my busy schedule since now all I have to worry about is school...

In a mother forum you tried to imply that you were already graduated from Med school. And now it's WHEN you matriculate?

And these forums are FULL of non trads, myself included. Trust me. Med school is more demanding than work and school.
 
In a mother forum you tried to imply that you were already graduated from Med school. And now it's WHEN you matriculate?

And these forums are FULL of non trads, myself included. Trust me. Med school is more demanding than work and school.
Yeah, you said that very thing in the other forum. Please, quote my post where I said I was a practicing physician. I am pretty sure I am not dumb enough to try and pass myself off as a physician when my profile says "Medical Student (Accepted)" and I have posted 99% of my replies in the pre-medical student forums. Nice try. No, you trust me, I will have more time while in medical school than I do right now. I know my life and I have talked to enough medical students to know that working the hours I work, attending to a fiance, and going to school full-time is more time consuming than medical school by itself. Now, please stop treating me like a child or I will just ignore you. It really is getting old.
 
Yeah, you said that very thing in the other forum. Please, quote my post where I said I was a practicing physician. I am pretty sure I am not dumb enough to try and pass myself off as a physician when my profile says "Medical Student (Accepted)" and I have posted 99% of my replies in the pre-medical student forums. Nice try. No, you trust me, I will have more time while in medical school than I do right now. I know my life and I have talked to enough medical students to know that working the hours I work, attending to a fiance, and going to school full-time is more time consuming than medical school by itself. Now, please stop treating me like a child or I will just ignore you. It really is getting old.

:clap:
 
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I know you guys are probably thinking, "Look at this ignorant idiot" and "He doesn't know a dang thing about medical school," but the truth be told is I work sometimes 80 hours a week, go to school, take care of the my relationship with me and my fiance, still take care of bills and take care of things in my home town. I never said medical school would be easier than what I am doing right now, but as far as the physically demanding side of things I think it is tougher right now. But, hey, what do I know right? I am just a dumb pre-med.
 
I know you guys are probably thinking, "Look at this ignorant idiot" and "He doesn't know a dang thing about medical school," but the truth be told is I work sometimes 80 hours a week, go to school, take care of the my relationship with me and my fiance, still take care of bills and take care of things in my home town. I never said medical school would be easier than what I am doing right now, but as far as the physically demanding side of things I think it is tougher right now. But, hey, what do I know right? I am just a dumb pre-med.
Not saying that at all. But don't underestimate the amount of material and minutiae that you will have to know really well (I mean really well) to be just the average Joe in med school...
 
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