Osteopathic vs. Caribbean

[yanks26dmb]

In all fairness, it takes a lot less than 80 hours a week to be far above an average Joe in med school.

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[235009]

It'll be interesting to see how they work MDs into TRIs in that case, given the substantial required amount of OMM lol- I just highly doubt most TRIs would give MDs a serious shot, as they'd just be a pain to deal with during OMM clinics. It still remains to be seen what barriers will be in place, in general, for MDs trying to match into osteopathic-focused programs as well. Who knows though, maybe they'll match in just fine. Granted, these programs tend to be in the middle of nowhere as well, so who knows if many MDs will be willing to practice a year of bone wizardry in Nebraska just to have a cush year. It really just remains to be seen.

My point was that TRIs may no longer exist under the single accreditation system and will have to apply as transitional years. I'm addition to that there have been a handful of AOA programs that have decided not to apply for osteopathic recognition. Same might happen to these TRIs when they become transitional programs.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Not saying that at all. But don't underestimate the amount of material and minutiae that you will have to know really well (I mean really well) to be just the average Joe in med school...

Yeah, I understand the intellectual part of medical school will be a hurdle for sure, but at least I can finally focus on just school, rather than trying to juggle other things. It will be nice, for a change.

 

[Mad Jack]

My point was that TRIs may no longer exist under the single accreditation system and will have to apply as transitional years. I'm addition to that there have been a handful of AOA programs that have decided not to apply for osteopathic recognition. Same might happen to these TRIs when they become transitional programs.

Actually, looking at it, a lot of them will likely close due to the two program presence requirement. The remaining will convert to TY programs.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

In all fairness, it takes a lot less than 80 hours a week to be far above an average Joe in med school.

I don't want to go into dire detail about my work hours, school, and life struggles, but I just can't imagine medical school taking up more of my time than all of this. The only reason I hold this opinion to be true for me is because I have 3 friends who are OMS4 and OMS2 and they do way more than I could ever dream of doing because of being tied up with work. They do community outreach, mud runs, trips for vacation, they hang out basically every other night and socialize, and so on. So, I guess I don't know this to be fact, but just based on talking to them and my observations over the years it seems like I will have a little more time on my schedule. You have to remember, too, that every school is different. It make just be this school.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I don't want to go into dire detail about my work hours, school, and life struggles, but I just can't imagine medical school taking up more of my time than all of this. The only reason I hold this opinion to be true for me is because I have 3 friends who are OMS4 and OMS2 and they do way more than I could ever dream of doing because of being tied up with work. They do community outreach, mud runs, trips for vacation, they hang out basically every other night and socialize, and so on. So, I guess I don't know this to be fact, but just based on talking to them and my observations over the years it seems like I will have a little more time on my schedule. You have to remember, too, that every school is different. It make just be this school.

Yeah I mean I was agreeing with you. You could spend 70 hours a week studying (which is insane and not needed) and still have multiple week nights + weekend nights free.

I study non-stop and still have time to do things. It's not that difficult to balance the two.

 

[Goro]

Look at Congress to see how untrue this is

I kinda think that's exactly how it does. You ever seen a committee vote on anything.

All in favor?
All opposed?
The _____ have it.

It's really quite simple. Since you're still a premed and have free time, you should check it out.

 

[Mbeas]

I don't want to go into dire detail about my work hours, school, and life struggles, but I just can't imagine medical school taking up more of my time than all of this. The only reason I hold this opinion to be true for me is because I have 3 friends who are OMS4 and OMS2 and they do way more than I could ever dream of doing because of being tied up with work. They do community outreach, mud runs, trips for vacation, they hang out basically every other night and socialize, and so on. So, I guess I don't know this to be fact, but just based on talking to them and my observations over the years it seems like I will have a little more time on my schedule. You have to remember, too, that every school is different. It make just be this school.

Only chiming in here to say that you are absolutely right in that you will have plenty of free time in medical school. I feel like most of the people that complain are M1/M2 which is fine, but even those years aren't that bad. You'll adjust and be able to manage your relationship, go out, have fun and enjoy life. Don't listen to the naysayers.

I just had to say something because I get annoyed when people act like the only thing you have time to do in medical school is study. It's completely false.

 

[Mjolner]

Look at Congress to see how untrue this is

That's completely different, unless you're implying that each member of the ACGME board is taking money from special interest groups by the millions and needing to posture publicly on tv to win re-election?

Also. In congress the voting is fairly down party lines, it's that the districts aren't drawn to represent the nation as whole constituency. But that happened because they got enough of one party in to vote on redrawing the lines. And I guarantee THAT one went down party lines.

Am I missing something here? We usually agree.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Only chiming in here to say that you are absolutely right in that you will have plenty of free time in medical school. I feel like most of the people that complain are M1/M2 which is fine, but even those years aren't that bad. You'll adjust and be able to manage your relationship, go out, have fun and enjoy life. Don't listen to the naysayers.

I just had to say something because I get annoyed when people act like the only thing you have time to do in medical school is study. It's completely false.

I get the feeling that a lot of people do tend to act like medical school is the ONLY thing they have time for. I just wonder what it is they are doing that is pertaining to medical school that takes up that much of their time? I know it is difficult, and it should be, but there has to be free time involved. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[W19]

I get the feeling that a lot of people do tend to act like medical school is the ONLY thing they have time for. I just wonder what it is they are doing that is pertaining to medical school that takes up that much of their time? I know it is difficult, and it should be, but there has to be free time involved. Thanks for chiming in.

It's not studying that only takes your time... You also have to go to class, prepare presentations, write professionalism papers and spend stupid time in PBL etc... However, I still think it's manageable.

 

[deleted564680]

Time you put into medical school is variable for people. If you want to pass then yeah you have a lot of free time. If you want 260+/750+ step 1/level 1 scores then no, you don't have a lot of free time. Those are the extremes and there is a gradient in between.
You can't generalize and say "oh you will have plenty of time or you will have no time." It depends on the student's goals.

 

[Goro]

What I'm saying is in any voting body, a minority can impede progress. It's not as simple as you imply in your example.

That's completely different, unless you're implying that each member of the ACGME board is taking money from special interest groups by the millions and needing to posture publicly on tv to win re-election?

Also. In congress the voting is fairly down party lines, it's that the districts aren't drawn to represent the nation as whole constituency. But that happened because they got enough of one party in to vote on redrawing the lines. And I guarantee THAT one went down party lines.

Am I missing something here? We usually agree.

 

[wxman393]

Unfortunately it is true. The guys call him "doc"....it's sad but funny.

That story alone is enough to discourage anyone from going to the Caribbean.

I'm just curious, did he willingly share his information?

 

[DrPatriot]

I'm just curious, did he willingly share his information?

Yeah, when I found out he went to med school I asked him about it and he told everyone the story. Why?

 

[wxman393]

Yeah, when I found out he went to med school I asked him about it and he told everyone the story. Why?

No specific reason. Personally, I don't know if I'd ever admit not being able to match. Obviously my friends and family would know when I don't end up practicing. But, after spending a good chunk of change, 4 years of medical school, and 2 years in the match, I'd probably keep that info to myself.

It's unfortunate really.

 

[DrPatriot]

No specific reason. Personally, I don't know if I'd ever admit not being able to match. Obviously my friends and family would know when I don't end up practicing. But, after spending a good chunk of change, 4 years of medical school, and 2 years in the match, I'd probably keep that info to myself.

It's unfortunate really.

Yeah but most people outside of medicine don't seem to know how the whole medical school & residency thing works exactly. He just told them the story and said he was going to reapply. I was probably the only person in the whole building who knows how screwed(unfortunately)he is.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Trying to not freak out over the AACOM/Aoa acquisition and the 2020 merger rollout but you guys are scaring me

 

[wxman393]

Yeah but most people outside of medicine don't seem to know how the whole medical school & residency thing works exactly. He just told them the story and said he was going to reapply. I was probably the only person in the whole building who knows how screwed(unfortunately)he is.

Yea, I hear ya. I was just surprised he shared the story with anyone, regardless of previous GME knowledge. I'd be curious to see how many people go through the match more than twice and get picked up. I'm assuming chances decline significantly with each passing cycle.

 

[NurWollen]

Yea, I hear ya. I was just surprised he shared the story with anyone, regardless of previous GME knowledge. I'd be curious to see how many people go through the match more than twice and get picked up. I'm assuming chances decline significantly with each passing cycle.

Sounds like he needs to go to Missouri. Or do a surgical preliminary spot or something. Anything to get licensed and practice in some capacity.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Yeah I mean I was agreeing with you. You could spend 70 hours a week studying (which is insane and not needed) and still have multiple week nights + weekend nights free.

I study non-stop and still have time to do things. It's not that difficult to balance the two.

I think what makes the difference in how much free time you have it whether or not you attend a school with mandatory attendance. We're forced to be in class or labs from 8pm to 5pm most days, which leaves just 4ish hours every night to get through 4 or 5 lectures.

Some students can learn well in class listening to lectures, so they probably end up having more free time.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Time you put into medical school is variable for people. If you want to pass then yeah you have a lot of free time. If you want 260+/750+ step 1/level 1 scores then no, you don't have a lot of free time. Those are the extremes and there is a gradient in between.
You can't generalize and say "oh you will have plenty of time or you will have no time." It depends on the student's goals.

Yup. It also depends on what kind of grades you're aiming for.

 

[Mjolner]

Time you put into medical school is variable for people. If you want to pass then yeah you have a lot of free time. If you want 260+/750+ step 1/level 1 scores then no, you don't have a lot of free time. Those are the extremes and there is a gradient in between.
You can't generalize and say "oh you will have plenty of time or you will have no time." It depends on the student's goals.

While this is 99% true, I am reminded of the students in my class who bust their humps to pass. I feel for those folks.

 

[IslandStyle808]

While this is 99% true, I am reminded of the students in my class who bust their humps to pass. I feel for those folks.

Do these students seek help from tutors, learning counselors, psychologists, etc.? Every time I hear of a struggling medical student on SDN, the vast majority of them never have sought these services.

 

[SLC]

My point was that TRIs may no longer exist under the single accreditation system and will have to apply as transitional years. I'm addition to that there have been a handful of AOA programs that have decided not to apply for osteopathic recognition. Same might happen to these TRIs when they become transitional programs.

This is possible, but I would automatically assume that TRI's go away, especially when they're allowing programs to retain "osteopathic recognition", and yes, some AOA programs have not applied for it, but a handful of previously ACGME programs have applied for "osteopathic recognition" already as well.

My program, an Ivy League program BTW, may very well apply for osteopathic recognition. They already sponsor an OMM clinic for the DO residents and interested MD residents. And a few of the MD faculty have even gone through OMM training and use and bill for it/supervise residents with it in clinic.

The next few years will be interesting. But I don't get the sense that the ACGME is looking for a hostile takeover as much as a shared set of GME standards.

 

[Mjolner]

Do these students seek help from tutors, learning counselors, psychologists, etc.? Every time I hear of a struggling medical student on SDN, the vast majority of them never have sought these services.

At my school it's required if you start tanking a class.

 

[costales]

At TCOM if you have a low exam score, you'll get a phone call from your advisor as well as emails from the tutoring people that you cannot ignore.

 

[costales]

Yea, I hear ya. I was just surprised he shared the story with anyone, regardless of previous GME knowledge. I'd be curious to see how many people go through the match more than twice and get picked up. I'm assuming chances decline significantly with each passing cycle.

I don't think there are many of them. I know a Caribbean MD who is applying to PA school. He is also looking for a gf to replace the RN who dumped him when he failed to match the second time. It's hard not to feel bad for the guy.

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

Two decades ago, Caribbean might have been a viable option if you are interested in primary care..

Honestly, there is no comparison nowadays to have DO vs IMG conversation and I'm quite amazed that some people still fail to catch on this.

This is possible, but I would automatically assume that TRI's go away, especially when they're allowing programs to retain "osteopathic recognition", and yes, some AOA programs have not applied for it, but a handful of previously ACGME programs have applied for "osteopathic recognition" already as well.

My program, an Ivy League program BTW, may very well apply for osteopathic recognition. They already sponsor an OMM clinic for the DO residents and interested MD residents. And a few of the MD faculty have even gone through OMM training and use and bill for it/supervise residents with it in clinic.

The next few years will be interesting. But I don't get the sense that the ACGME is looking for a hostile takeover as much as a shared set of GME standards.

Interesting...which Ivy League program is it?

 

[IslandStyle808]

At my school it's required if you start tanking a class.

I guess my concern is more did they get the help when they started seeing the signs (like barely passing a first test) or even before the first exam. I feel they would be a lot more successful if they were proactive. However, do believe there are those who are seeking the help and they still have to put in a lot of hours.

 

[235009]

My program, an Ivy League program BTW, may very well apply for osteopathic recognition. They already sponsor an OMM clinic for the DO residents and interested MD residents. And a few of the MD faculty have even gone through OMM training and use and bill for it/supervise residents with it in clinic.

The next few years will be interesting. But I don't get the sense that the ACGME is looking for a hostile takeover as much as a shared set of GME standards.

It's cool if you want to throw around the term "Ivy League" with your family or at a bar to try to impress people but it is meaningless outside of undergrad schools and certainly meaningless when we're talking about family medicine programs! Also, FM is exactly where the ACGME is hoping DOs will fill the gaps and where the OMM placebo effect can be most helpful. Sometimes I wish I could do some OMM in primary care clinic to make all that pesky chronic back pain "better".

 

[SLC]

It's cool if you want to throw around the term "Ivy League" with your family or at a bar to try to impress people but it is meaningless outside of undergrad schools and certainly meaningless when we're talking about family medicine programs!

Ha ha, I worried that might strike a nerve with you.

My only point in bringing it up is that this is an elite program, one of the top ranked one's in the country. And also one of the oldest and most established. They don't have to embrace DO's the way they do; it's a calculated decision they've made. This year I've interviewed multiple applicants to the program from places like: Harvard, Hopkins, Brown, UCSF, Vanderbilt, Duke, UNC, Cornell, UM, Stanford etc. The program clearly isn't taking DO's out of necessity.

Also, FM is exactly where the ACGME is hoping DOs will fill the gaps and where the OMM placebo effect can be most helpful. Sometimes I wish I could do some OMM in primary care clinic to make all that pesky chronic back pain "better".

I think to make a claim like that (that you know ACGME's intentions) you need to source it. I seriously doubt the ACGME cares one bit who goes where for residency.

And you should learn some OMM, its very sought after by patients, it gets them up and moving, which leads to resolution of most otherwise benign low back pain (since that's the context you put it in). I understand that you've got this need to have something to keep you feeling better than DO's about though, and learning OMM wouldn't work with that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't understand why a lot of people throw OMT out as a placebo tbh. I'm certainly not a huge OMT lover or anything, but there are techniques that obviously work. I mean, it's not magic as some OMM professors might act, but it has a functionality.

 

[235009]

Ha ha, I worried that might strike a nerve with you.

My only point in bringing it up is that this is an elite program, one of the top ranked one's in the country. And also one of the oldest and most established. They don't have to embrace DO's the way they do; it's a calculated decision they've made. This year I've interviewed multiple applicants to the program from places like: Harvard, Hopkins, Brown, UCSF, Vanderbilt, Duke, UNC, Cornell, UM, Stanford etc. The program clearly isn't taking DO's out of necessity.

I think to make a claim like that (that you know ACGME's intentions) you need to source it. I seriously doubt the ACGME cares one bit who goes where for residency.

And you should learn some OMM, its very sought after by patients, it gets them up and moving, which leads to resolution of most otherwise benign low back pain (since that's the context you put it in). I understand that you've got this need to have something to keep you feeling better than DO's about though, and learning OMM wouldn't work with that.

Yes, it's clear from your posts here that I'm the one who has the inferiority complex

I don't understand why a lot of people throw OMT out as a placebo tbh. I'm certainly not a huge OMT lover or anything, but there are techniques that obviously work. I mean, it's not magic as some OMM professors might act, but it has a functionality.

There's no good data to support OMM, a couple articles in JAOA don't count. Essentially preaching to the choir.

If I were going to stick with primary care (which I'm not) I would strongly consider learning OMM. A lot of patients come to clinic and just want you to do SOMETHING and OMM would be perfect to appease those kinds of patients who really just want to feel validated.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, it's clear from your posts here that I'm the one who has the inferiority complex



There's no good data to support OMM, a couple articles in JAOA don't count. Essentially preaching to the choir.

If I were going to stick with primary care (which I'm not) I would strongly consider learning OMM. A lot of patients come to clinic and just want you to do SOMETHING and OMM would be perfect to appease those kinds of patients who really just want to feel validated.

Except there's pretty good research on OMM for LBP and other conditions tbh. Look, I'm really not all that big into OMM. Personally I think large amounts aren't really my cup of tea nor are they something I'll ever use outside of possibly my family, but there's no denying that people go in for OMM clinic with some pretty obvious issues and they come out feeling fine for a good while.

 

[22031 Alum]

My only point in bringing it up is that this is an elite program, one of the top ranked one's in the country.

The issue is that "Ivy League" doesn't imply any of the above when it comes to residency programs. There are Ivy League programs in my field (and I'd assume many others) that are not considered elite.

 

[SLC]

The issue is that "Ivy League" doesn't imply any of the above when it comes to residency programs. There are Ivy League programs in my field (and I'd assume many others) that are not considered elite.

Well this is an elite program. Top 5% on every ranking I've seen. In the top 4 of all programs in some rankings.

 

[SLC]

Yes, it's clear from your posts here that I'm the one who has the inferiority complex .

Nice non-answer!

 

[235009]

Well this is an elite program. Top 5% on every ranking I've seen. In the top 4 of all programs in some rankings.

Nice non-answer!

not worth my time. you're clearly trying to protect your ego by making ridiculous statements about the competitiveness of your program. i looked at the US news and doximity rankings and neither has an "ivy league" program ranked in the top 4 for family medicine....just saying.

 

[surfguy84]

not worth my time. you're clearly trying to protect your ego by making ridiculous statements about the competitiveness of your program. i looked at the US news and doximity rankings and neither has an "ivy league" program ranked in the top 4 for family medicine....just saying.

In all seriousness, how do you have the time or energy to get into so many arguments on an internet message board? I'm not even saying your point of view is wrong...I'm just amazed at how you seemingly have nothing better to do with your time than fight with strangers online. It's odd.

 

[Dharma]

Don't feed the wildlife.

 

[235009]

In all seriousness, how do you have the time or energy to get into so many arguments on an internet message board? I'm not even saying your point of view is wrong...I'm just amazed at how you seemingly have nothing better to do with your time than fight with strangers online. It's odd.

at any one time i'm actively participating in at most one or two threads
over the past 7 years i've posted on average 1.2 posts per day
not exactly getting into many arguments with those kind of stats and certainly not taking up very much of my time
also occasionally residency isn't as busy as some med students imagine

 

[SLC]

not worth my time. you're clearly trying to protect your ego by making ridiculous statements about the competitiveness of your program. i looked at the US news and doximity rankings and neither has an "ivy league" program ranked in the top 4 for family medicine....just saying.

US news doesn't rate or rank residencies so you wasted your time there.

But keep looking at rankings, or don't. Either way, it doesn't really have much to do with my point...which is that my program, which is a top ranked allopathic program at an academically elite university, takes DO's 100% by choice; has for years.

 

[235009]

US news doesn't rate or rank residencies so you wasted your time there.

But keep looking at rankings, or don't. Either way, it doesn't really have much to do with my point...which is that my program, which is a top ranked allopathic program at an academically elite university, takes DO's 100% by choice; has for years.

But doximity does and when I didn't see it there I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with US news.

I see we're back to you using the fact that the university is "academically elite" as an argument (aka the ivy league argument) which we've already debunked as BS.

 

[SLC]

But doximity does and when I didn't see it there I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with US news.

I see we're back to you using the fact that the university is "academically elite" as an argument (aka the ivy league argument) which we've already debunked as BS.

I said top ranked (nationally) residency program at an academically elite University.

You'll continue to read what you want into that.

I've made my point. You've stated yours. People can read and decide for themselves now.

Hope your rotation is treating you well; this one I'm on at the moment has been pretty light so far.

 

[22031 Alum]

I only have a true opinion on the relative rankings of programs in my own specialty. If someone told me "I'm at an Ivy League Ob/Gyn residency," that could mean "I'm at a powerhouse academic program widely considered to be the best in the country," "I'm at a community program associated with an Ivy League school," "I'm at a program that has recently tended to fill from the scramble," or a few other things. Therefore it is a meaningless thing to say, and would only impress someone who didn't know any better.

 

[hallowmann]

Do all threads have to devolve like this? Who cares if the program is elite? We don't even know what the program is, and honestly we don't need to. It's not like the idea of a top ranking FM program taking DOs or teaching OMT is all that surprising.

Man, why do I keep coming back to this stuff. I'm going to hang out on the residency forums.

 

[Mjolner]

I'm secretly hoping @MeatTornado is a Harvard Med guy doing IM at Hopkins and will reveal after fellowship or something. It would be a movie like finish.

Edit: or a female. Could be either. The Ron Swanson pic makes me think male tho.

 

[costales]

Heh, real HMS guys don't have time to think about DOs, much less trolling in DO forums. That would be like Maserati owners hanging out in Chevy forums.

 

[235009]

I'm secretly hoping @MeatTornado is a Harvard Med guy doing IM at Hopkins and will reveal after fellowship or something. It would be a movie like finish.

Edit: or a female. Could be either. The Ron Swanson pic makes me think male tho.

spoiler alert: i went to a SUNY med school