Osteopathic vs Naturopathic medicine?

[Gene Queen]

In Canada we don't have schools of osteopathic medicine. We have one school of naturopathic medicine... I have an acquaintance in that program in Toronto, and I know they learn manipulation, acupuncture, herbal medicine, etc. What is the difference between DO and ND? I get the impression from this site that DOs do everything MDs do, and a bit of what NDs do, is that correct?

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[DrMom]

DOs and NDs are not the same. DOs have the same training as MDs and also do osteopathic manipulation. NDs aren't medical physicians.

DO schools do not teach things like accupuncture or herbal medicine. They teach standard western medicine.

Basically, there are more differences between DOs and NDs than there are commonalities.

 

[cooldreams]

i thought some md and do schools taught a little bit of accupuncture? not all do, but some have a few classes on it, right??

 

[OnMyWayThere]

DOs prescribe medicine, perform surgery, deliver babies, administer anesthesia...

NDs... I think they advise you to go to the local Whole Foods to purchase some herbal medicine, perform accupuncture...

I don't see too many commonalities...

 

[DrMom]

i thought some md and do schools taught a little bit of accupuncture? not all do, but some have a few classes on it, right??

I've seen accupuncture as an elective at one MD school. I'm sure there are some others out there, but I don't know how many students participate.


We had a demonstration of accupuncture in our multicultural class. The practitioner talked about "bad winds" doing things like "going deep" causing major pathology. The person who had the accupuncture done (a professor) later said that it didn't help her pain.

 

[JattMed]

I've seen accupuncture as an elective at one MD school. I'm sure there are some others out there, but I don't know how many students participate.


We had a demonstration of accupuncture in our multicultural class. The practitioner talked about "bad winds" doing things like "going deep" causing major pathology. The person who had the accupuncture done (a professor) later said that it didn't help her pain.

Alot of the studies utlizing placebo and accupuncture showed no significant difference in outcome.
Accupuncture based on EBM

 

[BamaAlum]

At KCUMB(UHS) we actually had a couple of lectures about accupuncture and it was demonstrated in one OPP lab (mainly to let us see what it was about, not to promote it). I personally am unsure of its efficacy, but I am positive that if it does work at all it is not due the flow of qi through the meridians. A few neurologists have proposed that it might somehow activate the endorphin/enkephalin pathways, but I don't think the studies that have been done so far prove that. I had a patient in the clinic that had tried it for his chronic lower back pain and said that it seemed helped, but was way too expensive to do regularly. I think that I would rather be injected with some good old fashioned narcotics myself.

 

[docbill]

In Canada we don't have schools of osteopathic medicine. We have one school of naturopathic medicine... I have an acquaintance in that program in Toronto, and I know they learn manipulation, acupuncture, herbal medicine, etc. What is the difference between DO and ND? I get the impression from this site that DOs do everything MDs do, and a bit of what NDs do, is that correct?

GENE Queen... I just read your post. You have to be careful posting this kind of stuff on here. DOs are sensitive and carring people hehehe Joking!!!!

I am also a Canadian and I wish to tell you that there is lots of data on
Canadians studying in US-DO programs and practicing in Canada afterwards.

Here is the summary I give most people (it is from this site I believe).

Osteopathic medicine is a distinctive form of medical practice in the United
States. Osteopathic physicians use all of the tools and technology available to modern medicine with the added benefits of a holistic philosophy and a system of hands-on diagnosis and treatment known as osteopathic manipulative medicine. Doctors of osteopathic medicine emphasize helping each person achieve a high level of wellness by focusing on health education, injury prevention and disease prevention.

Osteopathic medicine was founded in the late 1800s in Kirksville, Missouri, by
Andrew Taylor Still, M.D., who felt that the medical practices of the day often caused more harm than good. After losing members of his immediate family to meningitis, Dr. Still focused on developing a system of medical care that would promote the body?s innate ability to heal itself. He called his system of medicine osteopathy, now known as osteopathic medicine.

Osteopathic physicians, also known as D.O.s, work in partnership with their
patients. They consider the impact that lifestyle and community have on the
health of each individual, and they work to erase barriers to good health.
D.O.s are licensed to practice the full scope of medicine in all 50 states and
the District of Columbia. They practice in all types of environments, including
the military, and in all types of specialties from family medicine to
obstetrics to surgery to cardiology.

D.O.s are trained to look at the whole person from their first days of medical
school, which means they see each person as more than just a collection of body parts that may become injured or diseased. D.O.s are taught that the whole person is greater than the sum of his or her body parts. This holistic approach to patient care means that osteopathic medical students learn how to integrate the patient into the health care process as a partner. They are trained to communicate with people from diverse backgrounds, and they get the opportunity to practice these skills in the classroom with simulated patients.

Because of the whole-person approach to medicine, approximately 60 percent of all D.O.s choose to practice in the primary care disciplines of family
practice, general internal medicine and pediatrics. The remaining 40 percent go on to specialize in a wide range of practice areas. If the medical specialty
exists, you will find D.O.s there.

While America?s 47,000 D.O.s account for only 5 percent of the country?s
physicians, they handle 10 percent of all primary care visits. D.O.s also have
a strong history of serving rural and underserved areas, often providing their
unique brand of compassionate, patient-centered care to some of the most
economically disadvantaged members of society.

In addition to studying all of the typical subjects you would expect student
physicians to master, osteopathic medical students complete approximately 200 additional hours of training in the art of osteopathic manipulative medicine. This system of hands-on techniques helps alleviate pain, restore motion, support the body?s natural functions and influence the body?s structure to help it function more efficiently.

One key concept osteopathic medical students learn is that structure influences function. Thus, if there is a problem in one part of the body?s structure, function in that area and in other areas may be affected. For example, restriction of motion in the lower ribs, lumbar spine and abdomen can cause stomach pain with symptoms that mimic irritable bowel syndrome. By using osteopathic manipulative medicine techniques, D.O.s can help restore motion to these areas of the body, thus improving gastrointestinal function, oftentimes restoring it to normal.

Another integral tenet of osteopathic medicine is the body?s innate ability to
heal itself. Many of osteopathic medicine?s manipulative techniques are aimed
at reducing or eliminating the impediments to proper structure and function so the self-healing mechanism can assume its role in restoring the person to
health.

In addition to a strong history of providing high quality patient care, D.O.s
conduct clinical and basic science research to help advance the frontiers of
medicine and to demonstrate the effectiveness of the osteopathic approach to patient care. For the past three years, several national osteopathic
organizations have worked to develop a national center for osteopathic clinical research. This facility?s staff seeks to enhance osteopathic clinical outcomes research by serving as a national catalyst to develop and conduct multi-center, collaborative clinical research studies. Initial studies will focus on demonstrating the effectiveness of osteopathic manipulative medicine as it applies to many facets of patient care.

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Article regading practice in Canada:

U.S. Trained D.O.s Recognized Equal to M.D.s in Canada


For several years the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) and Canadian
Osteopathic Association (COA) have been working to expand US-trained
osteopathic physician rights in all of the Canadian provinces, especially in
Ontario, Canada?s largest province.

In September 2003 the AOA and Canadian Osteopathic Association (COA) met with delegates of The College of Physicians & Surgeons of Ontario (CPSO) and the College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC) about extending US-trained D.O.s practice rights throughout Canada. Since that meeting the CPSO has adopted a policy stating that US-trained D.O.s with AOA-accredited education are recognized equivalently to M.D.s in Canada. This policy allows US-trained D.O.s to go to Ontario and sit for the licensing examination and to gain practice rights there.


To learn more please visit the CPSO?s Web site.


The College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC) has also made strides towards acceptance of US-trained D.O.s practicing in Canada. In May 2003 the CFPC Board of Directors resolved that osteopathic physicians that have graduated from an AOA accredited College of Osteopathic Medicine and completed a residency through the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) may sit for the CFPC?s Certification Examination in Family Medicine.


To learn more about the requirements to sit for the CFPC?s Certification
Examination, please visit the Eligibility Requirements & General Information
section of the CFPC Web site at


For further information on both the CPSO and the CFPC related to D.O. practice rights, download this article which discusses the advances made for US-trained D.O. practice rights in Canada.


If you have any further questions please contact Joshua Kerr at
[email protected] or (800) 621-1773 x8196

 

[Gene Queen]

Wow! Thanks for all that info. I am now much more knowledgeable about osteopathic medicine. I wonder why we don't have this in Canada.

 

[docbill]

well imagine if in the US is not well known.. at least in most states... imagine in Canada... we only have 2 practicing DOs in Ontario and soon to become 3.

Read into the profession and if you are interested let me know.. I can give put you in contact with Ontario DO (which you will need a letter from when you are applying).

 

[BamaAlum]

well imagine if in the US is not well known.. at least in most states... imagine in Canada... we only have 2 practicing DOs in Ontario and soon to become 3.

Read into the profession and if you are interested let me know.. I can give put you in contact with Ontario DO (which you will need a letter from when you are applying).

Uh, apparently she is a Medical Genetics resident so I don't think she'll be applying anywhere.

 

[azcomdiddy]

In Canada we don't have schools of osteopathic medicine. We have one school of naturopathic medicine... I have an acquaintance in that program in Toronto, and I know they learn manipulation, acupuncture, herbal medicine, etc. What is the difference between DO and ND? I get the impression from this site that DOs do everything MDs do, and a bit of what NDs do, is that correct?

DO's learn manipulation but they don't learn acupuncture, herbal medicine etc. And what you may classify as manipulation is not exactly the same thing as OMM. Yes, OMM is a form of manipulation but it is based on different principles than general massage and chiropractic manipulation. Overall, you have the basic idea. We learn traditional allopathic medicine like M.D.'s in addition to OMM.

I know that DO's are often associated with a "holistic" approach to medicine but that statement is a gross exagerration. D.O.'s are essentially the same as M.D.'s with the addition of OMM training. N.D.'s are entirely different than D.O.'s

 

[!dr_nick!]

Naturopathic medicine - HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

 

[Robz]

Naturopathic medicine - HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

You may laugh but I am pretty sure I read on a few threads on here that they are pushing for more practice rights in Arizona and the surrounding areas. Its something to keep an eye on .....just like those same areas I believe are offering or thinking of offering psychologists prescription rights.

 

[raptor5]

we only have 2 practicing DOs in Ontario and soon to become 3.

There is only 1 on the huge island of Bermuda and the DO is a dermatologist. Heard this from a Bermudian in my class and she does plan to go back to Bermuda when finished. I am assuming that they honor US residencies.

 

[docbill]

Yeah.. there are prob 0 in china.. well that is prob wrong 1.1billion people there must be at least 1 US trained DO.

Okay you have a better chance finding a needle in a hay stack..
We should send off all graduates around the world and ask them to reproduce and make more DOs. hehehe.

 

[!dr_nick!]

You may laugh but I am pretty sure I read on a few threads on here that they are pushing for more practice rights in Arizona and the surrounding areas. Its something to keep an eye on .....just like those same areas I believe are offering or thinking of offering psychologists prescription rights.

doesnt it defeat the purpose of being an Naturopath if you have prescriptive authority for *gasp* man-made pharmaceuticals?

 

[cooldreams]

You may laugh but I am pretty sure I read on a few threads on here that they are pushing for more practice rights in Arizona and the surrounding areas. Its something to keep an eye on .....just like those same areas I believe are offering or thinking of offering psychologists prescription rights.

let them... they know nothing about medicine or interactions with humans, so they will quickly slip up and they will be worse off than they were before... just more ppl trying to make a quick buck....

 

[!dr_nick!]

let them... they know nothing about medicine or interactions with humans, so they will quickly slip up and they will be worse off than they were before... just more ppl trying to make a quick buck....

Although at first glance, the idea of a psychologist being able to prescribe certain appropriate drugs seems reasonable. Then you realize the lack of anatomical, physiological, pharmaceutical, and other knowledge and you realize how bad it is. Psychologists are NOT trained to think like physicians (and vice versa, with the possible exception of pyschiatry).
And if they get prescriptive authority without malpractice insurance, whoo boy.

 

[Gene Queen]

I have recently joined this forum and was hearing a lot about MD vs DO, and I hadn't really heard of Osteopathy before, since there are no osteopathic medical schools in Canada. When I heard about "manipulation" it sort of reminded me of naturopathic medicine, because they learn something similar to what chiropractors do.

Except for the manipulation part, osteopathic medicine doesn't sound that different from allopathic medicine (and I guess it isn't!). The "holistic" approach that is emphasized in osteopathic med school sounds similar to the philosophy of my medical school, McMaster (in Ontario).

 

[DrMom]

Sounds like you've got it, Gene Queen.

 

[OzDDS]

Just curious but.. andrew still founded DO schools to be different to promote natural healing ability through manipulation ie. "osteopathic medicine". Did graduates of the first DO school do surgery and perscribe all medications.. or was this that DO graduates have since aquired through political scope of practice rights with the AMA? I still don't understand.. esp when today since most DO's are doing MD residencies proportionally.. why we even have DO schools if there DO's are now claiming that they are the same as MD's. Instead of claiming to be the Same as MD's I would think you would only be fighting yourself out of existance. DO schools were founded to be different than MD's. I think DO graduates should do more OMT related DO residencies. Otherwise what's the point in even having DO schools?

 

[!dr_nick!]

I think DO graduates should do more OMT related DO residencies. Otherwise what's the point in even having DO schools?

OMT is only a tool to be used for certain things, just like prescription drugs are suitable for certain things, and surgery is suitable for certain things.

And yes, DOs could prescribe medicine and do surgeries back in Still's day. As did homeopaths and eclectics.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Just curious but.. andrew still founded DO schools to be different to promote natural healing ability through manipulation ie. "osteopathic medicine". Did graduates of the first DO school do surgery and perscribe all medications.. or was this that DO graduates have since aquired through political scope of practice rights with the AMA? I still don't understand.. esp when today since most DO's are doing MD residencies proportionally.. why we even have DO schools if there DO's are now claiming that they are the same as MD's. Instead of claiming to be the Same as MD's I would think you would only be fighting yourself out of existance. DO schools were founded to be different than MD's. I think DO graduates should do more OMT related DO residencies. Otherwise what's the point in even having DO schools?

Many people go into Osteopathic schools planning on going into family practice and perhaps using OMM. Even if they don't plan on using OMM, they are taught to consider different issues and factors that patients would not present otherwise, it's not just MD + OMM. So, that's why many people choose Osteopathy. Once you are exposed to various specialties during rotations, you may switch from your original plans (as I hear A LOT of people do). That's why surgery and other residencies are made available to DOs. It's great that it's not just one pathway all must follow upon entering an osteopathic medical school.

 

[OzDDS]

OMT is only a tool to be used for certain things, just like prescription drugs are suitable for certain things, and surgery is suitable for certain things.

And yes, DOs could prescribe medicine and do surgeries back in Still's day. As did homeopaths and eclectics.

But doesn't surgery and prescription of drugs mostly go against what Still believed. Still created DO schools built on his idea of the body being able to heal itself naturally without surgery or medicine using OMT theory that he invented. DO's may have been able to do surgery in nineteenth century.. but then again so could almost anyone.. without legal repercussions as there were not as strict with enforcing any type of licensure and scope of practice issues back then. I just don't understand why we have DO degrees if everyone including DO's themselves claim they are equal in every way to an MD and do exactly the same things, and now in the twenty first century even train in the same residencies. Why not just do what California tried to do in the ?60s and change the DO degree granting schools to MD granting schools if now they are effectively the same thing.

 

[bansheeDO]

But doesn't surgery and prescription of drugs mostly go against what Still believed. Still created DO schools built on his idea of the body being able to heal itself naturally without surgery or medicine using OMT theory that he invented. DO's may have been able to do surgery in nineteenth century.. but then again so could almost anyone.. without legal repercussions as there were not as strict with enforcing any type of licensure and scope of practice issues back then. I just don't understand why we have DO degrees if everyone including DO's themselves claim they are equal in every way to an MD and do exactly the same things, and now in the twenty first century even train in the same residencies. Why not just do what California tried to do in the ?60s and change the DO degree granting schools to MD granting schools if now they are effectively the same thing.

Still was an M.D. and a physician. He never suggested that osteopathic medicine replace all forms of conventional medicine. This is the mantra that uneducated pre-med students like you try to perpetuate to belittle DO's. Dr. Still did suggest that OMM can be used at times in exchange of traditional allopathic forms of treatment.

Nice try

 

[OzDDS]

Still was an M.D. and a physician. He never suggested that osteopathic medicine replace all forms of conventional medicine. This is the mantra that uneducated pre-med students like you try to perpetuate to belittle DO's. Dr. Still did suggest that OMM can be used at times in exchange of traditional allopathic forms of treatment.

Nice try

Why didnt' he start another MD school integrating OMT classes then?

 

[bansheeDO]

Why didnt' he start another MD school integrating OMT classes then?

That was in the late 19th and early 20th century. Any change to typical allopathic philosophy was not met with acceptance. You can't just open an M.D. school if you feel like it. In regards to opening a new school, It's nearly impossible to open a new M.D. school now. Think of how difficult it would have been back then.

Also, why is a dentist or pre-dent interested in arguing over osteopathic school? I also found it interesting how all your threads relate to offshore schools and other alternative to medical school. Can you not get into a U.S. M.D. or dental school? Why are you interested in dental schools in Australia and a Mexican dental school. How would you know that a Mexican dental school is approved in California? Why would information about a Mexican dental school interest someone who could get into a U.S. dental school? Usually people who can get into a U.S. dental school wouldn't even know if such an option exists. I think we have a bitter pre-med/pre-dent on deck

 

[OzDDS]

That was in the late 19th and early 20th century. Any change to typical allopathic philosophy was not met with acceptance. You can't just open an M.D. school if you feel like it. In regards to opening a new school, It's nearly impossible to open a new M.D. school now. Think of how difficult it would have been back then.

Also, why is a dentist or pre-dent interested in arguing over osteopathic school? I also found it interesting how all your threads relate to offshore schools and other alternative to medical school. Can you not get into a U.S. M.D. or dental school? Why are you interested in dental schools in Australia and a Mexican dental school. How would you know that a Mexican dental school is approved in California? Why would information about a Mexican dental school interest someone who could get into a U.S. dental school? Usually people who can get into a U.S. dental school wouldn't even know if such an option exists. I think we have a bitter pre-med/pre-dent on deck

Just wanted to say that my post was not a bash of DO, just curious as to why certain changes have happened to the DO curriculum within the past 100 years or so. This wasn't meant to be a personal bashing contest. (which you are apparently interested in starting). If you have question about who I am or what my future educational goals are you can just ask me instead of researching my posts to then flame me. Not very nice.
All that aside. I was sort of interested in medicine in my first couple of years of university I am about to be a senior at UCSD. But I decided to apply to dental school. And trust me a lot of people know about the state of California accrediting the Mexican school. I am from southern California and they did it to supply dentists to the Spanish speaking residents where I?m from.
About my career choice, who says once you choose Med, Dent, Vet, or what have you, you?re no longer allowed to post in other areas? I have only applied to dental schools once, I didn?t get accepted but not because I don?t have good stats.. it is because I have not completed my degree and most Med and Dentistry schools usually want you to finish the degree you began before starting school. I have a great gpa and good DAT scores. I could probably get accepted to some US med school next year when I finish, but that?s not what I want to do. I have decided to apply to dental school, and I am applying to top notch schools, UCLA, Sydney, USC, UBC, and U of Washington. We?ll see what happens. You can bash me all you want, but that is quite rude.
I have a right to express my opinion, and I just think that it is a bit hypocritical for the DO community to fight for years to be equivalent to MDs in every respect and even gain acceptance from the AMA, and to be able to matriculate into allopathic residency training programs, and after all that. Not allow those same MDs to apply to any Osteopathic residencies. Doesn?t seem quite fair.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Dude you can't cure cancer with OMT. It's a tool that can be used in certain situations. And you asked why didn't Still open an MD school and integrate OMT in it. Read my above post that you posted after. It sounds to me like you're trying to start a bashing contest asking that question after it was just said that it's not simply MD + OMM, it's more than that. Anyway, good luck in your endeavors.

 

[dcratamt]

Naturopathic medicine - HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

This is what a lot of MD students think of us D.O.'s. You would think that you would be more sensitive.

 

[group_theory]

To clarify some things,

actually it was quite easy to open MDs schools. You have to realize the system of accreditation in place now didn't exist back then. Medical school wasn't require to become a doctor, and it wasn't difficult to gain admission if you did wanted to go to medical school (schools competed for students). The legal aspect of medicine (state licensure and regulation, professional associations and specialty boards) was in its infancy and huge aspect of medicine (from the practice of medicine to starting/running schools) went largely unregulated.

There were many many MD schools operating at the time. The procedures and practices of medicine were quite primitive at the time.

When Dr. Still opened ASO (american school of osteopathy, present day KCOM), the original charter from the state of Missouri allowed it to grant the degree of Doctor of Medicine. But Dr. Still wanted a distinct degree, one that convey to the masses that these doctors were unique, and not the ordinary doctors out there that would bleed you, give you mercury or other toxins, or amputate your leg/arm if it can be saved.



If you want to know more about history, read "The DO" by Norman Gevitz, PhD. The above was a brief summary, based on what I can recall from memory.

 

[!dr_nick!]

This is what a lot of MD students think of us D.O.'s. You would think that you would be more sensitive.

Really?
BTW what MD students think doesnt particularly concern me.

 

[!dr_nick!]

But doesn't surgery and prescription of drugs mostly go against what Still believed.

Thats because back then
surgery = amputation
drugs = poison

So there you go.

So, if i get TB im taking antibiotics. Im not trusting my immune system.
Osteopathy though does try to preach preventative medicine though, so that harsher treatments can be avoided if possible.

 

[VentdependenT]

I have a right to express my opinion, and I just think that it is a bit hypocritical for the DO community to fight for years to be equivalent to MDs in every respect and even gain acceptance from the AMA, and to be able to matriculate into allopathic residency training programs, and after all that. Not allow those same MDs to apply to any Osteopathic residencies. Doesn?t seem quite fair.

Yawwwn..

 

[macman]

Wow guys- if I had only read this thread and never knew anything else about DO's I would think you guys were very sensitive and a bit bully-ish. Why bash ND's so much? Why bash accupuncture-how is accupuncture incredibly different from counterstrain or other gentle tech.'s (don't give me a lecture about the differing physiology of each b/c its all theory anyway). I also forgot where you mentioned blinded, controlled trails showing the amazing effectiveness of OMT or where you showed how more than a minority of DOs actually do practice different than MD's.

Why don't we spend more energy trying to improve our own profession than slamming others who ask a polite, well-intentioned question. And in case you think I'm an MD in DO clothing I'm an OMM fellow who loves the profession and who is not afraid to use OMM/OMT on my rotations and be very aggressive about sticking up for the profession when working with MD's. If our profession is going to continue to mean something we all need to decide what we can contribute to being distinct for our patients.

Thats my tirade of the day!

 

[Ypo.]

Wow guys- if I had only read this thread and never knew anything else about DO's I would think you guys were very sensitive and a bit bully-ish. Why bash ND's so much? Why bash accupuncture-how is accupuncture incredibly different from counterstrain or other gentle tech.'s (don't give me a lecture about the differing physiology of each b/c its all theory anyway). I also forgot where you mentioned blinded, controlled trails showing the amazing effectiveness of OMT or where you showed how more than a minority of DOs actually do practice different than MD's.

Why don't we spend more energy trying to improve our own profession than slamming others who ask a polite, well-intentioned question. And in case you think I'm an MD in DO clothing I'm an OMM fellow who loves the profession and who is not afraid to use OMM/OMT on my rotations and be very aggressive about sticking up for the profession when working with MD's. If our profession is going to continue to mean something we all need to decide what we can contribute to being distinct for our patients.

Thats my tirade of the day!

Good post

Dr. Mom-I think we should be careful when we say NDs aren't medical physicians. I never quite understood what that meant exactly, anyways! A physician is defined as;
1.A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
2.A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery.
3.A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

Don't people go to see NDs for medical problems? (yes). Are they licensed to practice natural path medicine by a federally recognized accrediting agency-the CNME? (yes). Do they heal or exert healing influence? (yes).

When osteopathic medicine started, MDs were saying DOs weren't medical physicians-they had to fight for respect...now are we going to do the same thing to NDs?

I respect NDs because they are trying to treat the patient as non-invasively, preventively and holistitically as possible. It may not always be the most effective or powerful way to cure illness, but many NDs feel that too often prescription drugs do more harm than good-and I would venture that the patients who see NDs are way ahead in the preventative medicine game. NDs walk the walk, whereas the philosophy of osteopathic medicine just talks the talk.
I have friends that go to see NDs-and often the NDs recommend antibiotics, allopathic treatments etc, when they know its what the patient needs... Their patients feel comfortable in their hands because they know they won't subject them to unnecessary medications or invasive procedures-and that they will recommend when its time to see a health professional who has been trained in "western" medicine. BTW-NDS recieve standard training in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, and are taught standard medical techniques along with naturopathic techniques.

Who knows, in the future, NDs may evolve to take on more of the responisibilites of allopathic/osteopathic family physicians, and they may adopt more of western medicine into their practice. NDs already do integrate their traditional therapies with conventional medical therapies when they deem it appropriate.

We shouldn't try to pigeonhole them.

Now, chiropractors, they're a different story! I can't stand the buggers...smell like cabbage...(small hands). Of course I'm kidding

 

[Ypo.]

BTW-I found this article on a google search. http://www.dcproductsreview.com/chiropractic_magazine/nutrition_nov_dec_2002.pdf

Here is an excerpt from it...does it sound familiar???! this may explain why Gene Queen was confused about the differences between DOs and NDs.

"Naturopathic medicine is a system of medicine used for the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of human disease and impairment. It stresses health maintenance, disease prevention, patient education, and patient responsibilities and emphasizes the whole person rather than treatment of disease symptoms. Naturopathic medicine is identified by - Vis Medicatrix Naturae, "healing power of nature." Fundamental to this belief is a deep confidence in the ability of the body and mind to heal itself. Naturopathic physicians help remove obstacles to cure and employ natural therapies that strengthen and stimulate each person's own healing processes." -Michele Ferchoff

Sounds remarkably similar to aspects of the DO philosophy, doesn't it?

 

[DrMom]

Good post

Dr. Mom-I think we should be careful when we say NDs aren't medical physicians. I never quite understood what that meant exactly, anyways! A physician is defined as;
1.A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
2.A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery.
3.A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

Don't people go to see NDs for medical problems? (yes). Are they licensed to practice natural path medicine by a federally recognized accrediting agency-the CNME? (yes). Do they heal or exert healing influence? (yes).

I do not know anyone who considers NDs to be medical physicians (including NDs). They are distinct from Western medicine, which is what the vast majority of Americans are thinking of when they think of medicine.

 

[Ypo.]

I do not know anyone who considers NDs to be medical physicians (including NDs). They are distinct from Western medicine, which is what the vast majority of Americans are thinking of when they think of medicine.

Not like I want to get in a debate with a mod let alone a mom-mod (o goddess of knowledge )...that being said -

Naturopathic medicine is a system of medicine.
NDs are physicians.
I don't understand how anyone can say with unbias and certainty that they are not medical physicians.

If the phrase was changed to "they are not western-type doctors" then I would agree, but to say they are not medical doctors is subtlely ethnocentric...it implies that there is only one valid system of medicine.

 

[docbill]

The profession is fine for some people. If you have the money.

I personally don't agree with NDs. Prevention and proper nutrition of course.. but who doesn't.

Bodies ability to heal --> YES.. but to a certain limit. I personally believe that the body has the ability to heal itself within limited injury. BUT.. the damage we cause our bodies these days... (FOOD/Enviro/Stress... Politics) is way beyond our ability for repair.

 

[daveyboy]

Not like I want to get in a debate with a mod let alone a mom-mod (o goddess of knowledge )...that being said -

Naturopathic medicine is a system of medicine.
NDs are physicians.
I don't understand how anyone can say with unbias and certainty that they are not medical physicians.

If the phrase was changed to "they are not western-type doctors" then I would agree, but to say they are not medical doctors is subtlely ethnocentric...it implies that there is only one valid system of medicine.

Subtley ethnocentric? Are NDs some kind of new ethnic group? Please.

Saying that an ND is not a physician does not show cultural bias, nor does it shows a lack of respect for their training. It does show a firm grounding in reality.

 

[Ypo.]

Subtley ethnocentric? Are NDs some kind of new ethnic group? Please.

Saying that an ND is not a physician does not show cultural bias, nor does it shows a lack of respect for their training. It does show a firm grounding in reality.

Saying that only practitioners of western medicine can be called physicians is ethnocentric.

I realize you think that your views show that you have a firm grounding in reality-this is because you feel very strongly that western medicine is the best form of medicine- and that no one else could be a "medical" doctor. However, you should realize that people in other parts of the world feel that their type of medicine is the best, and wouldn't consider a western doctor to be a "real doctor".

I disagree with you...but then again I am a cultural anthropologist at heart. Take a medical anthropology class and you will find that western medicine is not separated from american culture. Also, read "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" -the story of Hmong child with epilepsy and the difficulties doctors have treating her disease because they don't realize the very point I'm trying to make in this post.

Being ethnocentric means that you have an attitude that your culture is superior to other cultures. Western medicine is one aspect of our culture-it helps to define american culture.

Having an attitude that someone who has undergone 4 or more years of training in another system of medicine is not a physician simply because they don't practice "western medicine" and consider scientific method to be the definitive method to tell whether a treatment has any value is an ethnocentric view, whether you realize this or not.

Naturopathic medicine and naturopathic physicians incorporate medicinal and healing techniques from other cultures (such as acupuncture and chinese herbs). Therefore you are also indirectly showing your ethnocentricity against other forms of medicine - and other cultures. You should be able to be sensitive to your patients cultural beliefs as a doctor at the very least... even if you don't believe them... or feel that your particular beliefs about medicine are correct or superior (which is OK, btw, most people choose a form of medicine because they believe it to be the best).

Anyways, I've wasted enough time trying to convince you. If you want to save the title "physician" for western doctors who earn a DO or MD degree - then I don't want to pop your little bubble for you.

 

[daveyboy]

Saying that only practitioners of western medicine can be called physicians is ethnocentric.

I realize you think that your views show that you have a firm grounding in reality-this is because you feel very strongly that western medicine is the best form of medicine- and that no one else could be a "medical" doctor. However, you should realize that people in other parts of the world feel that their type of medicine is the best, and wouldn't consider a western doctor to be a "real doctor".

I disagree with you...but then again I am a cultural anthropologist at heart. Take a medical anthropology class and you will find that western medicine is not separated from american culture. Also, read "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" -the story of Hmong child with epilepsy and the difficulties doctors have treating her disease because they don't realize the very point I'm trying to make in this post.

Being ethnocentric means that you have an attitude that your culture is superior to other cultures. Western medicine is one aspect of our culture-it helps to define american culture.

Having an attitude that someone who has undergone 4 or more years of training in another system of medicine is not a physician simply because they don't practice "western medicine" and consider scientific method to be the definitive method to tell whether a treatment has any value is an ethnocentric view, whether you realize this or not.

Naturopathic medicine and naturopathic physicians incorporate medicinal and healing techniques from other cultures (such as acupuncture and chinese herbs). Therefore you are also indirectly showing your ethnocentricity against other forms of medicine - and other cultures. You should be able to be sensitive to your patients cultural beliefs as a doctor at the very least... even if you don't believe them... or feel that your particular beliefs about medicine are correct or superior (which is OK, btw, most people choose a form of medicine because they believe it to be the best).

Anyways, I've wasted enough time trying to convince you. If you want to save the title "physician" for western doctors who earn a DO or MD degree - then I don't want to pop your little bubble for you.

I meant that they are not physicians in the sense that they are not eligible for a license to practice medicine in the culture that I live in.

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

I meant that they are not physicians in the sense that they are not eligible for a license to practice medicine in the culture that I live in.

I agree, Naturopathic Phyicians are licensed to practice Naturopathic Medicine, which is a hodgepodge of non-western traditions lumped in to the category of removing restrictions in order to allow the body to heal itself. For example, they learn far more about nutrition than do traditional physicians. That said, they are not licensed in this country to practice medicine in the same capacity as a MD or a DO. And despite their efforts to do so, they should not be allowed to be the PTP for a patient until there is more unity in their educational system. When they are trained in the SAME basic sciences as MD/DOs and their licensure reflects standardized tests and comprehensive postgraduate clinical training that shows that they can successfully refer when needed, then and only then should they be allowed to be PTPs in this country. This is a hurdle that osteopathic medicine had to get over, and we have.

 

[daveyboy]

I agree, Naturopathic Phyicians are licensed to practice Naturopathic Medicine, which is a hodgepodge of non-western traditions lumped in to the category of removing restrictions in order to allow the body to heal itself. For example, they learn far more about nutrition than do traditional physicians. That said, they are not licensed in this country to practice medicine in the same capacity as a MD or a DO. And despite their efforts to do so, they should not be allowed to be the PTP for a patient until there is more unity in their educational system. When they are trained in the SAME basic sciences as MD/DOs and their licensure reflects standardized tests and comprehensive postgraduate clinical training that shows that they can successfully refer when needed, then and only then should they be allowed to be PTPs in this country. This is a hurdle that osteopathic medicine had to get over, and we have.

That hurdle is a huge deal higher then it was when DO schools were founded. I don't see that happening, but you never know.

I think what we will see in the next 20 years is IM and FP residencies with alot of the alternative and complementary therapies integrated into them.

 

[OzDDS]

Subtley ethnocentric? Are NDs some kind of new ethnic group? Please.

Saying that an ND is not a physician does not show cultural bias, nor does it shows a lack of respect for their training. It does show a firm grounding in reality.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=153483

 

[dancote]

I will confess, I am very interested in Naturopathic medicine. The reason I didn't go that route is 1) I was concerned that I would not see enough pathology 2) that licensing would not be available in my area for some time. My plan now is to get my D.O. degree and then do the N.D. degree (something like 15% of Naturopathic students already have a medical degree). I did spend a lot of time speaking to N.D. students to learn about the current programs. It was interesting to learn that they all do the basic science courses the first 2 years. These include gross anatomy, Bio. Chem., etc. They do clinical type work the 3rd and 4th years. The southwestern school in Arizona has an excellent program and they now offer a residency after graduation.
There are something like 13 states that were N.D.s are licensed as primary care doctors. In several states (Arizona and Utah,?) they are able to prescribe. I believe that NY is attempting to put a law through for N.D. licensing. The District of Columbia is the most recent to be licensed as also was CA.
My love and devotion to osteopathic medicine does not limit my interest in other forms of healing. I hope to be a family doctor someday with the open mind to look at various (researched backed) methods of healing.
N.D. doctors are here to stay. I hear good and bad from people who have worked with them, but that is also true of other types of doctors. The important thing is that all doctors (including the N.D.) depend on sound research and properly conducted studies in their practice. We will be seeing a lot more research in herbal and chinese medicine in the future as this is what a large percent of the population wants.

-dan

 

[daveyboy]

I will confess, I am very interested in Naturopathic medicine. The reason I didn't go that route is 1) I was concerned that I would not see enough pathology 2) that licensing would not be available in my area for some time. My plan now is to get my D.O. degree and then do the N.D. degree (something like 15% of Naturopathic students already have a medical degree). I did spend a lot of time speaking to N.D. students to learn about the current programs. It was interesting to learn that they all do the basic science courses the first 2 years. These include gross anatomy, Bio. Chem., etc. They do clinical type work the 3rd and 4th years. The southwestern school in Arizona has an excellent program and they now offer a residency after graduation.
There are something like 13 states that were N.D.s are licensed as primary care doctors. In several states (Arizona and Utah,?) they are able to prescribe. I believe that NY is attempting to put a law through for N.D. licensing. The District of Columbia is the most recent to be licensed as also was CA.
My love and devotion to osteopathic medicine does not limit my interest in other forms of healing. I hope to be a family doctor someday with the open mind to look at various (researched backed) methods of healing.
N.D. doctors are here to stay. I hear good and bad from people who have worked with them, but that is also true of other types of doctors. The important thing is that all doctors (including the N.D.) depend on sound research and properly conducted studies in their practice. We will be seeing a lot more research in herbal and chinese medicine in the future as this is what a large percent of the population wants.

-dan

You should check out University of Arizona's Integrative Medicine website. They have an FP residency and Integrative Medicine fellowship that is geared toward what you said you are interested in. There is the added bonus of working with the biggest beard in all of medicine, Andrew Weil.

 

[OzDDS]

I agree, Naturopathic Phyicians are licensed to practice Naturopathic Medicine, which is a hodgepodge of non-western traditions lumped in to the category of removing restrictions in order to allow the body to heal itself. For example, they learn far more about nutrition than do traditional physicians. That said, they are not licensed in this country to practice medicine in the same capacity as a MD or a DO. And despite their efforts to do so, they should not be allowed to be the PTP for a patient until there is more unity in their educational system. When they are trained in the SAME basic sciences as MD/DOs and their licensure reflects standardized tests and comprehensive postgraduate clinical training that shows that they can successfully refer when needed, then and only then should they be allowed to be PTPs in this country. This is a hurdle that osteopathic medicine had to get over, and we have.

I don't see how your argument is any different than an MD's viewpoint in the 1960's. "allowing the body to heal itself".. isn't this what Osteopathic med is all about. How hard would it be for ND schools to just incorporate 2 years of MD equivalent medical science and then claim to be equivalent. That is what DOs did basically right? With ND schools promoting a more general physician type curriculum, then saying they will practice in rural and underserved areas, to get approval for MD res training... then many of them then proceeding to apply for non gp related training programs.. Soon you'll have to decide which Plastic surgeon you want to visit between an MD, DO, ND, Dr of Oriental medicine, etc. when does it stop? I don't think we should be allowing such things in the name of medical anthropology or political correctness.