Osteopathic vs Naturopathic medicine?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
yposhelley said:
No disrespect intended...

You're what, a first year? And your 4 months of education have really shown you a lot, right? Have you even done anything clinical yet where you are working side by side with both MDs and DOs?

Talk to me in four years when you are in your residency or better yet, actually practicing, and then your opinions will carry much more weight with me. Right now you are immersed within osteopathic theory, and your opinions understandably reflect what you are being taught, but don't necessarily reflect the reality of practice. I have shadowed a lot of DOs and a lot of MDs, and haven't been able to see a significant difference in practice of medicine, aside from that DOs may touch their patients more. More importantly, I haven't seen a difference in the health of their patients and efficacy of prevention. I admire your loyalty to your profession, but there are plenty of people on these forums who would be willing to back me up on this opinion. Of course there are plenty who will back you up on yours, as well.

That being said, we can take this over to the "what makes a DO more than an MD plus OMT thread" where it would be more pertinent. The truth is I really don't care to argue this point with you. It doesn't bother me at all if you want to hold onto your opinion, just as long as you don't have a problem with me posting mine. And they are just opinions, anyway. What you are making is a prediction, and cannot be proved or disproved.


I worked beside DO's and MD's in the emergency department through high school as a volunteer and for 4 years in college as a paramedic and tech. I also have worked beside both doing clinicals as a first year student, which is available at our school. If you haven't noticed a marked difference in the way DO's talk to patients and act towards them versus an MD, then you haven't been paying attention.

Members don't see this ad.
 
OSUdoc08 said:
I worked beside DO's and MD's in the emergency department through high school as a volunteer and for 4 years in college as a paramedic and tech. I also have worked beside both doing clinicals as a first year student, which is available at our school. If you haven't noticed a marked difference in the way DO's talk to patients and act towards them versus an MD, then you haven't been paying attention.

I have experienced many DO's who are guilty of "treat em and street em" syndrome. However, Between the MD's and DO's I know, I think that more of the DO's talk to their patients about preventive care more and spend more time with them during the office visit.
 
medic170 said:
I have experienced many DO's who are guilty of "treat em and street em" syndrome. However, Between the MD's and DO's I know, I think that more of the DO's talk to their patients about preventive care more and spend more time with them during the office visit.

There is an article published on this. I will try to find it... but I am too busy right now to look in my mess. Someone will google it.

DOs are more likely to talk to there patients... and to explain the disease/problem and to provide choices of treatment. Also DOs are more likely to ask about family/work life that may be causing this problem, also preventative measures. However the number was small... ~100 patients. It would be great if they did a larger study.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
OSUdoc08 said:
I worked beside DO's and MD's in the emergency department through high school as a volunteer and for 4 years in college as a paramedic and tech. I also have worked beside both doing clinicals as a first year student, which is available at our school. If you haven't noticed a marked difference in the way DO's talk to patients and act towards them versus an MD, then you haven't been paying attention.


Hardly, its just that the difference is imperceptible, if it is there. You can't make generalizations such as this. The way any physician (MD or DO) relates to their patient has more to do with physician personality, patient personality and the priorities of both than it has to do with medical education. There are many factors that contribute to how much time the physician has to spend with each patient, such as the time slot they have been scheduled for, the type of practice they are in (ie-grant-based or profit-based), not to mention what kind of doctor (bullet-wound patients in the ER don't develop much of a relationship with their physicians, I'll warrant). If you want to make a general statement that DOs are better with patient care than are MDs, go ahead, its your @ss on the line.

Anyways, if I'm not mistaken, the original point of dissension was that you asserted DOs are more effective at preventative health care across to their patients. You have no proof of this. Even if DOs only make up 6% of physicians, they take a care of a much larger percent of primary care for the nation, so if there was any real difference in preventative care, their effect would be felt, and seen.
I live in Michigan, and I work for three seperate adult homes, running these people to their doctors appointments day in and day out, the numbers of MDs and DOs I have taken them to for their appointments have been split about evenly in half. These adults are mentally ill, which would warrant spending even more time with them. I have seen no difference between the two types of physician for time spent. I would think if the difference was there, I would have noticed it. Don't get me wrong, I have been impressed with the DOs I have interacted with-for the most part, warm-hearted and approachable physicians, but I was expecting them to be markedly different from MDs, and I was mistaken. I applied to DO schools because I like the tool of OMM, I want to be a FP and if I can use OMM in addition to scripts for backpain, I'll love it. I also really like the four tenets, but I believe its more lipservice than actual difference. Believe me, I have tried to see a difference.

Anyone who keeps his mind open and makes the effort can focus on preventative medicine and good interactions with patients, regardless of what school they go to. :thumbup:
 
OzDDS said:
I don't need some "alternative doctor" to teach me how to live healthy. This is something that MDs can do already. We don't need yet another pathway to another equivlent doctoral degree in order to pick up the slack in preventative medicine. Maybe you should just rethink our approach to what we already have. Maybe we just need to educated children in schools in all year levels about how to live a healthy lifestyle. :thumbup:

It seems that most would agree that preventive medicine is a vital, under utilized aspect of healthcare, IMHO also a major reason why some seek out alt med.

Although the scientific basis of their reccomendations can often be criticized, NDs do offer many suggestions to patients seeking preventive health information beyond just "eat right and exercise". In contrast, my perception is that MDs or ODs rarely talk to patients about preventive med beyond "eat right and exercise" to include things like green tea, omega 3 fatty acids, antioxidants, stress management, etc. To stereotype, the stance of MDs/ODs seems to usually be "not enough evidence, waste of money, expensive pee, etc.", while NDs seem to feel it is ethical (and empowering to patients) to suggest low risk treatments with potential, though not conclusively proven benefits for patients trying to improve their health.

Personally, my fear is that in our market driven, patent ridden healthcare system, there is little economic incentive to "prove" unpatentable preventive medicine works, and even less political will to lobby for its place in modern healthcare.

Would anyone care to comment on how they would counsel a patient seeking information on preventive medicine? How should we "pick up the slack in preventative medicine"? It seems easy to talk about "rethinking our approach", but what is in the OD preventive medicine repetoire besides the standard "eat right (whatever that means!) and exercise, don't smoke, don't drink" pitch? Say for someone with a family history of diabetes, heart disease, or cancer?
 
bodymechanic said:
It seems that most would agree that preventive medicine is a vital, under utilized aspect of healthcare, IMHO also a major reason why some seek out alt med.

Although the scientific basis of their reccomendations can often be criticized, NDs do offer many suggestions to patients seeking preventive health information beyond just "eat right and exercise". In contrast, my perception is that MDs or ODs rarely talk to patients about preventive med beyond "eat right and exercise" to include things like green tea, omega 3 fatty acids, antioxidants, stress management, etc. To stereotype, the stance of MDs/ODs seems to usually be "not enough evidence, waste of money, expensive pee, etc.", while NDs seem to feel it is ethical (and empowering to patients) to suggest low risk treatments with potential, though not conclusively proven benefits for patients trying to improve their health.

Personally, my fear is that in our market driven, patent ridden healthcare system, there is little economic incentive to "prove" unpatentable preventive medicine works, and even less political will to lobby for its place in modern healthcare.

Would anyone care to comment on how they would counsel a patient seeking information on preventive medicine? How should we "pick up the slack in preventative medicine"? It seems easy to talk about "rethinking our approach", but what is in the OD preventive medicine repetoire besides the standard "eat right (whatever that means!) and exercise, don't smoke, don't drink" pitch? Say for someone with a family history of diabetes, heart disease, or cancer?

Good points. Maybe part of it has to do with putting the power back in the patients hands, as you say. Patients in America need to take more responsibility for their own health, but its hard when they see junk food ads followed by drug ads for diabetes, not to mention that many of them believe in the myth that we have the greatest health care system in the world. The look on peoples faces when they find out they have diabetes and there is no pill to cure it...

I'm quite sure western medicine realizes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, its just hard to put that into practice when advertising puts most their effort into the cure and not prevention. Walk down a grocery aisle and see how hard it is to find healthy food choices, how easy it is to find bad ones. Its hard to resist temptation when its in your face 24/7. Those drug ads have a powerful effect on people. Everyone wants a magic pill, BELIEVES in it. Never underestimate the ability of people to live in denial.
 
bodymechanic said:
It seems that most would agree that preventive medicine is a vital, under utilized aspect of healthcare, IMHO also a major reason why some seek out alt med.

Although the scientific basis of their reccomendations can often be criticized, NDs do offer many suggestions to patients seeking preventive health information beyond just "eat right and exercise". In contrast, my perception is that MDs or ODs rarely talk to patients about preventive med beyond "eat right and exercise" to include things like green tea, omega 3 fatty acids, antioxidants, stress management, etc. To stereotype, the stance of MDs/ODs seems to usually be "not enough evidence, waste of money, expensive pee, etc.", while NDs seem to feel it is ethical (and empowering to patients) to suggest low risk treatments with potential, though not conclusively proven benefits for patients trying to improve their health.

Personally, my fear is that in our market driven, patent ridden healthcare system, there is little economic incentive to "prove" unpatentable preventive medicine works, and even less political will to lobby for its place in modern healthcare.

Would anyone care to comment on how they would counsel a patient seeking information on preventive medicine? How should we "pick up the slack in preventative medicine"? It seems easy to talk about "rethinking our approach", but what is in the OD preventive medicine repetoire besides the standard "eat right (whatever that means!) and exercise, don't smoke, don't drink" pitch? Say for someone with a family history of diabetes, heart disease, or cancer?


just a small comment, OD should actually be DO, that is the way that the degree is awarded...
 
cooldreams said:
just a small comment, OD should actually be DO, that is the way that the degree is awarded...

I think it was a typo, as they have spelled it correctly in other posts. It was hard for me to resist pointing it out too, even so ;)
 
Or maybe he just thinks optometrists are that good! :laugh:
 
yposhelley said:
Whatever anyone else has to say about NDs, remember this...THEY ARE KICKING OUR ASSES WITHIN THE FIELD OF PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE. .

You have to realise that your stats are not very realistic. If the US does not have a universal healthcare system.. "Most" people have to pay for medical services be it GP-MD or alternative care by an ND, oriental doc, etc. Which means.. Most people aren't going to pay out of pocket to go to a GP unless they are really sick and need help. On the other hand.. a majority of people who see alterantive providers are "health concious" already and it is a priority for them and they don't mind paying for it. Meaning they are going to be much better at behavior modification and healthy living than your typical archie bunker who only sees his GP if he HAS to. :idea:
 
OzDDS said:
You have to realise that your stats are not very realistic. If the US does not have a universal healthcare system.. "Most" people have to pay for medical services be it GP-MD or alternative care by an ND, oriental doc, etc. Which means.. Most people aren't going to pay out of pocket to go to a GP unless they are really sick and need help. On the other hand.. a majority of people who see alterantive providers are "health concious" already and it is a priority for them and they don't mind paying for it. Meaning they are going to be much better at behavior modification and healthy living than your typical archie bunker who only sees his GP if he HAS to. :idea:

Although I never posted any stats...
I will agree with you that a lot of people who choose to see NDs are already health conscious. You have to ask yourself 'why' the people who see NDs are more concerned with their health than mainstream americans (could it be because they have positive influences in their life such as a health conscious doctor or parent-and that going to an ND reinforces this more than going to an MD or DO?) There is no reason why MDs/DOs cannot improve in the field of preventative medicine-but it does take a conscious effort on behalf of both patient and doctor.
However- this does not negate the fact that practitioners in the allopathic and osteopathic world are still failing to make preventative medicine a big enough priority in their practices. We could get into some of the reasons for this, (ie-the health care system doesn't profit from healthy people, pharmaceutical companies pushing magic pills rather than healthy living choices-and how doctors give into pressure to prescribe from both patients and drug companies, and how government policy condones these practices) but it seems like we should start a different thread about it. ;)
 
A short guide to understanding medical titles.

MD/Allopath = Doctor
DO/Osteopath = Doctor
Naturopath = Witch Doctor
Chiropractor = Masseuse
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Old_Mil said:
A short guide to understanding medical titles.

MD/Allopath = Doctor
DO/Osteopath = Doctor
Naturopath = Witch Doctor
Chiropractor = Masseuse

Wow, I knew we should have just let this thread die.

You know, there are a ton of people in the pre-allo forum who would say that DO/Osteopath=doctor who couldn't cut it as an MD. Just be careful who you pick on.
 
After reading this entire thread, I have made some conclusions...
1. for some of you, it doesn't matter what two letters come after you names- you are still narrowminded snobs.
2. ND/DO/MD- who cares? Aren't we in medicine to help people and to make them well. The more choices we have as physicians to help our patients the better.

Please, can't we all just get along?!
 
OzDDS said:
You have to realise that your stats are not very realistic. If the US does not have a universal healthcare system.. "Most" people have to pay for medical --- modification and healthy living than your typical archie bunker who only sees his GP if he HAS to. :idea:

Hey OzDDS, You are bloody A$$ you know that.
why did you bring back this old thread.

Is there a reason for this: Do you have AADD or what?
 
docbill said:
Hey OzDDS, You are bloody A$$ you know that.
why did you bring back this old thread.

Is there a reason for this: Do you have AADD or what?


Yeah.. sorry about that one. I hadn't checked SDN for a while and responded to a old post. I agree.. not a very productive thread, but felt like commenting on a post.
 
r90t said:
I have worked with a nMD before while I was in med school in AZ. They have full rx rights and dea number. That means they have access to any drug that an MD/DO can rx.

This is not true. I don't know what he told you but whatever it is, he isn't licensed to prescribe medication with the full array as an MD/DO. Dentists have dea numbers as well but are limited as to what class of drugs they licensed to prescribe regardless of what they get away with prescribing.
 
My objective is to attend a DO program and not a ND program such as NCM
in my home town. I attempt to learn from others and frequently ask ND and
MD students in my hometown about their studies and experiences.
I did notice the ND students studying a radiology textbook.

One ND student that I spoke talked about a practice that has a ND, DC, DO/MD and a massage therapist.

http://www.ncnm.edu/intro.html
http://www.ncnm.edu/a4academics/doctorofnd.cfm

The following course description is interesting.

PHM 520/530/610/640 Naturopathic Manipulative Therapeutics I, II, III, IV
(1 credit hour lecture per term)
This series of lecture courses refines, integrates, and expands upon the concepts and procedures of Palpation, Hydrotherapy, Physiotherapy, Office Orthopedics, and the Naturopathic Manipulative Therapies Labs. Emphasis is on the physiology of neuromusculoskeletal injury and dysfunction, and on the physiologic effects of manual therapies. Students gain the tools needed to critically evaluate physical medicine modalities.
Prerequisites: PHM 416/426, CLS 510/520, PHM 512/522, concurrent enrollment in CLS 530

PHM 520L/ 530L/ 610L/ 640L/ 650L Naturopathic Manipulative Therapeutics Labs I, II, III, IV, V (1 credit hour lab per term)
Students learn to assess and treat soft-tissue and joint dysfunctions using gentle, effective, and efficient techniques. These techniques are drawn from osteopathic and chiropractic sources, and are based on the most advanced models and understanding of soft-tissue and joint dysfunctions. Students learn by assessing and treating each other during guided hands-on practice with an emphasis on safety.
NMT I: Thoracic spine and ribs
NMT II: Lumbar spine and pelvis
NMT III: Cervical spine
NMT IV: Upper and lower extremity
NMT V: Review and correlation
Prerequisites: PHM 416/426, CLS 510/520, PHM 512/522, concurrent enrollment in CLS 530

Do DCs use only HVSA techniques?
 
50 years later: 32% ND enter primary care, 0% ND enters ND residency.
 
I don't see how your argument is any different than an MD's viewpoint in the 1960's. "allowing the body to heal itself".. isn't this what Osteopathic med is all about. How hard would it be for ND schools to just incorporate 2 years of MD equivalent medical science and then claim to be equivalent. That is what DOs did basically right? With ND schools promoting a more general physician type curriculum, then saying they will practice in rural and underserved areas, to get approval for MD res training... then many of them then proceeding to apply for non gp related training programs.. Soon you'll have to decide which Plastic surgeon you want to visit between an MD, DO, ND, Dr of Oriental medicine, etc. when does it stop? I don't think we should be allowing such things in the name of medical anthropology or political correctness. :thumbdown:

Disclaimer: I am not a Naturopathic Doctor, nor do I have any personal interest in supporting the profession. I simply would like to clarify a few points to hopefully dispel some ignorance on this site.

1. NDs are licensed in 14 states and Washington DC.
2. Their scope of practice varies by state. In some, they have full prescription, minor surgery, and diagnosis ability. In others, they can merely order labs, diagnose, prescribe herbs and supplements, and offer lifestyle counseling and NMT (Naturopathic Manipulation Technique).
3. In those states, they are required to attend an accredited 4-year, 4100 hour (at least) graduate (ND) program, with a "built-in residency."
4. The first two years of these programs is startlingly similar to the first two years of MD/DO school. (ie, entirely western science lecture/lab-based taught by PhDs and NDs)
5. The final two years introduce clinical rotations and more "alternative" modalities such as herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and NMT.
6. At the end of two years, Naturopathic students take their first board exams (western science, quite similar to the USMLE). At the end of three years they take their "Clinic Entrance Exam," and at the end of four they take their comprehensive licensing exam.
7. A list of OPTIONAL post-grad accredited residencies can be found at the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website.

Furthermore, there seems to a lot of similarities between the allopathic/osteopathic route and the naturopathic route (specifically that they all rely heavily on a foundation of western lab science curricula). ND training deviates upon the addition of alternative western modalities during later training (very similar to the way OMT is incorporated into the DO curricula in lieu of whatever allopathic classes MDs are taking instead). Contrary to popular belief, although many ND schools also have acupuncture programs, in order for NDs to study and preform acupuncture, they must enroll in an additional dual degree program that leads to an L.Ac. ("license in acupuncture").

The reason for discrimination against NDs seems very similar to the (declining) discrimination against DOs by MDs: the average MCAT scores of ND students are slightly lower, on average, than DO students. (Likewise, DO MCATS tend to be slightly lower than MD scores, on average.) This fact, combined with the Naturopathic inclusion of "alternative and complementary medicines" into their required course of training gives them an unfair, in my opinion, label as inferior physicians.

Now, there is one MAJOR difference: clinical training. NDs are only required to see a minimum of 350-400 patients (as primary attendings) during their clinical year and are not required to complete a post-grad residency for licensure. MDs and DOs see almost this many patients in a week during their training and are required to complete 3 years of 80 hour weeks before licensure becomes a reality. MAJOR difference. From what I understand, ND residencies are becoming more common, with time, and there may be a time when NDs occupy the same residencies as DOs and MDs.

The sad thing for me is that 36 states refuse to license naturopaths. Given the lapse in clinical education, perhaps "primary care" status is not appropriate. But, after 4 years of rigorous study, NDs ought to be able to practice what they've learned in order to give the people a choice. In states where NDs are primary care physicians, the malpractice rate is no higher than in states without NDs. Therefore, if they stay in business, they must be doing some good and ought to be given a chance, like Physical Therapists, Nutritionists, Massage Therapists, Nurses, and Chiropractors, to practice a safe alternative to what's currently offered as primary care.

Just thoughts...
 
Disclaimer: I am not a Naturopathic Doctor, nor do I have any personal interest in supporting the profession. I simply would like to clarify a few points to hopefully dispel some ignorance on this site.

1. NDs are licensed in 14 states and Washington DC.
2. Their scope of practice varies by state. In some, they have full prescription, minor surgery, and diagnosis ability. In others, they can merely order labs, diagnose, prescribe herbs and supplements, and offer lifestyle counseling and NMT (Naturopathic Manipulation Technique).
3. In those states, they are required to attend an accredited 4-year, 4100 hour (at least) graduate (ND) program, with a "built-in residency."
4. The first two years of these programs is startlingly similar to the first two years of MD/DO school. (ie, entirely western science lecture/lab-based taught by PhDs and NDs)
5. The final two years introduce clinical rotations and more "alternative" modalities such as herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and NMT.
6. At the end of two years, Naturopathic students take their first board exams (western science, quite similar to the USMLE). At the end of three years they take their "Clinic Entrance Exam," and at the end of four they take their comprehensive licensing exam.
7. A list of OPTIONAL post-grad accredited residencies can be found at the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website.

Furthermore, there seems to a lot of similarities between the allopathic/osteopathic route and the naturopathic route (specifically that they all rely heavily on a foundation of western lab science curricula). ND training deviates upon the addition of alternative western modalities during later training (very similar to the way OMT is incorporated into the DO curricula in lieu of whatever allopathic classes MDs are taking instead). Contrary to popular belief, although many ND schools also have acupuncture programs, in order for NDs to study and preform acupuncture, they must enroll in an additional dual degree program that leads to an L.Ac. ("license in acupuncture").

The reason for discrimination against NDs seems very similar to the (declining) discrimination against DOs by MDs: the average MCAT scores of ND students are slightly lower, on average, than DO students. (Likewise, DO MCATS tend to be slightly lower than MD scores, on average.) This fact, combined with the Naturopathic inclusion of "alternative and complementary medicines" into their required course of training gives them an unfair, in my opinion, label as inferior physicians.

Now, there is one MAJOR difference: clinical training. NDs are only required to see a minimum of 350-400 patients (as primary attendings) during their clinical year and are not required to complete a post-grad residency for licensure. MDs and DOs see almost this many patients in a week during their training and are required to complete 3 years of 80 hour weeks before licensure becomes a reality. MAJOR difference. From what I understand, ND residencies are becoming more common, with time, and there may be a time when NDs occupy the same residencies as DOs and MDs.

The sad thing for me is that 36 states refuse to license naturopaths. Given the lapse in clinical education, perhaps "primary care" status is not appropriate. But, after 4 years of rigorous study, NDs ought to be able to practice what they've learned in order to give the people a choice. In states where NDs are primary care physicians, the malpractice rate is no higher than in states without NDs. Therefore, if they stay in business, they must be doing some good and ought to be given a chance, like Physical Therapists, Nutritionists, Massage Therapists, Nurses, and Chiropractors, to practice a safe alternative to what's currently offered as primary care.

Just thoughts...

This can't be true. Source?
 
This can't be true. Source?

I live in Oregon, so I'll give you the link to the Naturopathic prescription law.
http://www.oregon.gov/OBNM/rules/850-060-0226_1.pdf

To find out about other states, you can google "naturopathic formulary (insert state name)". I know that Vermont, Washington, and California also allow drug presciption (to varying degrees) while Connecticut and New Hampshire (for example) only allow for ordering labs, diagnosis, and "natural" treatments.
 
I think ND is a great career choice if you enjoy crushing up leaves for a living. I hear they have great hours too, so after the bus ride back to your apartment, you'll have plenty of free time to clip coupons and post on internet forums for physicians about the veracity of your training.
 
Remind me never to get sick in Oregon. Seriously, that state is a god damn battlefield when it comes to who they let practice medicine. Seriously, full rights for NPs, full rights for NDs, Psychologists can prescribe psych meds, etc, etc, etc. Frightening.

I said this in the other thread ... but NDs are quacks, and it's funny now how they are following the same model of every other pseudo-medical group out there and trying to legitimize themselves and practice medicine without attending medical school.

It's getting old ... quick. However, I think the NDs will have the hardest time grasping for rights in this battle. NPs are winning because of their strong lobbying group and similarities to medicine; ODs are winning because the public doesn't know any better and they work a lot with the eye, etc, etc, etc, however, I don't think NDs have the lobbying power or the money, and I think you're going to have a hard time explaining why a group that's founded upon shunning modern medicine now wants the ability to RX xanax and vics.

If you want to play doctor ... go to medical school, and don't bother with the 'we treat this way,' 'we're filling a crucial gap in primary care,' BULL because we've all heard it 10k times now and it roughly translates to 'I think I'm smarter than DO/MDs and I'm sick of them livin' da gewd life, and I should be able to prance around in a white coat and prescribe narcotics and shoot botox.'

Add a sob story about filling a primary care gap and a strong lobbying group and BAM ... you've got a foot in the door. However, NDs won't get there.
 
Remind me never to get sick in Oregon. Seriously, that state is a god damn battlefield when it comes to who they let practice medicine. Seriously, full rights for NPs, full rights for NDs, Psychologists can prescribe psych meds, etc, etc, etc. Frightening.

I said this in the other thread ... but NDs are quacks, and it's funny now how they are following the same model of every other pseudo-medical group out there and trying to legitimize themselves and practice medicine without attending medical school.

It's getting old ... quick. However, I think the NDs will have the hardest time grasping for rights in this battle. NPs are winning because of their strong lobbying group and similarities to medicine; ODs are winning because the public doesn't know any better and they work a lot with the eye, etc, etc, etc, however, I don't think NDs have the lobbying power or the money, and I think you're going to have a hard time explaining why a group that's founded upon shunning modern medicine now wants the ability to RX xanax and vics.

If you want to play doctor ... go to medical school, and don't bother with the 'we treat this way,' 'we're filling a crucial gap in primary care,' BULL because we've all heard it 10k times now and it roughly translates to 'I think I'm smarter than DO/MDs and I'm sick of them livin' da gewd life, and I should be able to prance around in a white coat and prescribe narcotics and shoot botox.'

Add a sob story about filling a primary care gap and a strong lobbying group and BAM ... you've got a foot in the door. However, NDs won't get there.

Those things may definitely be true...especially the lobby environment. It's hard to tell what will happen with NDs. Personally, I hope they get licensed as mid-level practitioners. It scares me that an ND would be a primary care physician with the right to prescribe drugs without completing a residency...especially since they tout their natural remedies with such fervor. But they deserve a spot on the map, for the sake of freedom and choice. There's a lot of bull in mainstream medicine (ie, "Statins cure heart disease, and, therefore, everyone needs them."), and it's nice to see someone trying to keep them honest. But ND clinical training has a long way to come. But it's straight ignorant to state, categorically, that any group of people are "quacks." There are quack MDs and quack NDs. But there are also great practitioners in both categories. It's ashame the lobby isn't geared toward flushing out the quacks and keeping the legitimate healers in the game...
 
There's a lot of bull in mainstream medicine (ie, "Statins cure heart disease, and, therefore, everyone needs them.")

You sure that mainstream medicine is saying that statins CURE heart disease?
 
Those things may definitely be true...especially the lobby environment. It's hard to tell what will happen with NDs. Personally, I hope they get licensed as mid-level practitioners. It scares me that an ND would be a primary care physician with the right to prescribe drugs without completing a residency...especially since they tout their natural remedies with such fervor. But they deserve a spot on the map, for the sake of freedom and choice. There's a lot of bull in mainstream medicine (ie, "Statins cure heart disease, and, therefore, everyone needs them."), and it's nice to see someone trying to keep them honest. But ND clinical training has a long way to come. But it's straight ignorant to state, categorically, that any group of people are "quacks." There are quack MDs and quack NDs. But there are also great practitioners in both categories. It's ashame the lobby isn't geared toward flushing out the quacks and keeping the legitimate healers in the game...

To be honest ...

1. NDs already have a 'spot on the map.' They have a spot as NDs - alternative medicine specialists. Trying to become something else is an attempt to create another 'spot' without justification. Why should they become midlevel providers? Do they have educational curriculum at the level of a PA? What value, with the current training model, would they be in a hospital? In a DO/MD's office?

2. You're right, they aren't blatantly quacks. A lot of people like natural treatments, and I'm definitely not against them. However, these treatments need to fall under the C (complementary) and not the A (alternative) part of CAM treatments and NOT replace mainstream care.

HOWEVER, when NDs try to claim to be physicians, lure patients away from DO/MD care, or lobby for surgical and RX rights without attending medical school ... they are quacks. Plain and simple.

3. I wouldn't compare statins (which is a pretty well understood treatment in a lot of ways) to pushing a homeopathic remedy that's been well understood and peaked in it's usefulness 200 years ago.

Altogether, I think health care in general is fine with where NDs are, and any push for more rights, more power, etc, just isn't necessary. Again, when these groups try to practice medicine without attending medical school for whatever reason ... patients suffer. This is no good.
 
Remind me never to get sick in Oregon. Seriously, that state is a god damn battlefield when it comes to who they let practice medicine. Seriously, full rights for NPs, full rights for NDs, Psychologists can prescribe psych meds, etc, etc, etc. Frightening.

I said this in the other thread ... but NDs are quacks, and it's funny now how they are following the same model of every other pseudo-medical group out there and trying to legitimize themselves and practice medicine without attending medical school.

It's getting old ... quick. However, I think the NDs will have the hardest time grasping for rights in this battle. NPs are winning because of their strong lobbying group and similarities to medicine; ODs are winning because the public doesn't know any better and they work a lot with the eye, etc, etc, etc, however, I don't think NDs have the lobbying power or the money, and I think you're going to have a hard time explaining why a group that's founded upon shunning modern medicine now wants the ability to RX xanax and vics.

If you want to play doctor ... go to medical school, and don't bother with the 'we treat this way,' 'we're filling a crucial gap in primary care,' BULL because we've all heard it 10k times now and it roughly translates to 'I think I'm smarter than DO/MDs and I'm sick of them livin' da gewd life, and I should be able to prance around in a white coat and prescribe narcotics and shoot botox.'

Add a sob story about filling a primary care gap and a strong lobbying group and BAM ... you've got a foot in the door. However, NDs won't get there.

IIRC, the oregon governor vetoed psychologist rx after it passed, but I could be wrong.
 
IIRC, the oregon governor vetoed psychologist rx after it passed, but I could be wrong.

Good to know. I was under the impression it went through all the way. However, Oregon is probably one of the most liberal states when it comes to healthcare. Aren't they one of the few states with legal physician assisted suicide as well?
 
Good to know. I was under the impression it went through all the way. However, Oregon is probably one of the most liberal states when it comes to healthcare. Aren't they one of the few states with legal physician assisted suicide as well?

Yes, it is legal here.

But even Connecticut and New Hampshire license Naturopaths.

They're coming, whether we like it or not. Now we just have to figure out how to make the best use of them in our wild and crazy medical system...
 
They're coming, whether we like it or not. Now we just have to figure out how to make the best use of them in our wild and crazy medical system...

I highly doubt this. Like you said, NDs really have no privileges outside of herbal care in 36/50 states and I don't see them having the lobbying power, capital, or purpose to change this. Every group thinks they are 'up and coming' a 'force to be dealt with,' etc, and this just isn't the case here (IMO).

Also, we can use them to offer complementary, natural + herbal treatments in private practice settings. That's what they train for ... why would we use them for something else.
 
One of these days, the garbageman will have a Doctorate in Urban Sanitation (DUS) and you have to address him as "Dr. Garbageman." I bet any moment now the paramedics are going to have a doctorate program of their own too, just like the DPTs, DNPs, NDs and the PharmDs.

It's all an attempt to hijack other people's reputation and social standing without actually putting in the work, responsibility and time required to build that. What a farce this country is turning into.
 
One of these days, the garbageman will have a Doctorate in Urban Sanitation (DUS) and you have to address him as "Dr. Garbageman." I bet any moment now the paramedics are going to have a doctorate program of their own too, just like the DPTs, DNPs, NDs and the PharmDs.

It's all an attempt to hijack other people's reputation and social standing without actually putting in the work, responsibility and time required to build that. What a farce this country is turning into.

gimme an E!
gimme an N!
gimme a T!
gimme an I!
gimme a T!
gimme an L!
gimme an E!
gimme an M!
gimme an E!
gimme an N!
gimme a T!

What's that spell??!? Everything that's wrong with America, that's what.
 
gimme an E!
gimme an N!
gimme a T!
gimme an I!
gimme a T!
gimme an L!
gimme an E!
gimme an M!
gimme an E!
gimme an N!
gimme a T!

What's that spell??!? Everything that's wrong with America, that's what.

This.
 
One of these days, the garbageman will have a Doctorate in Urban Sanitation (DUS) and you have to address him as "Dr. Garbageman." I bet any moment now the paramedics are going to have a doctorate program of their own too, just like the DPTs, DNPs, NDs and the PharmDs.

It's all an attempt to hijack other people's reputation and social standing without actually putting in the work, responsibility and time required to build that. What a farce this country is turning into.

Yup, every one wants and feels they deserve something without putting in the work.
 
It's all an attempt to hijack other people's reputation and social standing without actually putting in the work, responsibility and time required to build that. What a farce this country is turning into.

It's obvious you're an idiot.
 
It's obvious you're an idiot.

No, he's not. If you want a more developed example look at NPs in the US and how they're pushing for physician salary and recognition without medical school or residencies.

The ND debate, while still in its infancy, exhibits many of the same characteristics.
 
Top