I meant the job market. And let me expand that to tech and consulting. The anecdotes as well as what I’ve found by asking old friends confirm it’s doing very well. Sure job market on average is always going to be bad nowadays, but we are considering med students and at least somewhat decently bright college students (some quite bright)
"Our peers in tech and other non-medicine fields are making 6 figures already"
- Thread starter zurc2014
- Start date
I meant the job market. And let me expand that to tech and consulting. The anecdotes as well as what I’ve found by asking old friends confirm it’s doing very well. Sure job market on average is always going to be bad nowadays, but we are considering med students and at least somewhat decently bright college students (some quite bright)
“Easily 300k 5y in.” Lol no. People don’t just get promoted like that in the corporate world for working hard for 5y. It’s in fact similar to gunning in med school, those kind of positions are limited and you’d have to compete hard for them.
That said, if you’re incurring a lot of med school debt then yea, you knew you were giving up $$$ for a very long time
Last edited:
Yes exactly. Medicine has crazy security - so while I can make 170k at amazon next year, I have no idea where I'll be in 10 years.
Medicine sets a very linear path to making 300k at 30, retiring at age 45, and is also something that I think I'll decently enjoy. So while I'll enjoy tech more in the short term, (1) I can see myself doing medicine in the long term and (2) the stability is unmatched.
VERY few doctors retire at 45 for one. MANY doctors these days graduate past 30 from residency these days. Not all doctors make 300k particularly starting on. Sorry it's clear that you are not in the field. Yes I would agree that Medicine has good security in general, and salaries tend to be higher than in other fields, but it is getting increasingly more challenging in general
300k at 30? Huh? No man, at 30 you're likely either in residency or fresh out of a shorter one and didn't subspecialize.
You're now a junior attending and you'll still need to "gun" and build up high patient volume to negotiate/obtain more desirable job characteristics. Don't forget paying off loans if you have them. And even if you have zero loans, there's no chance you're retiring at 45.
inb4 derm: Derm is almost certainly going under within 5y (in terms of being best lifestyle. It'll still be active, but longer hours/worse conditions etc) because it stands no chance against private equity buying out all the PPs.
The fact is you take/took a chance either way (FAANG or medicine). I was quite disheartened as I came to know the truth about medicine earnings vs current FAANG earnings. Sure the tech bubble will burst someday, but medicine in particular has a lot of wasted time too. And the fact is that from a financial standpoint, it was far more advantageous to hop on the FAANG train from 2016-now and build up savings/assets.
The other issue generally speaking is that med students don't seem to know anything about even passively investing. Meanwhile all the tech people are sitting on very bullish stock that they get just by having their job. They didn't need to invest any money into the stock prior
One silver lining of medicine is possibly having minimal bosses to answer to if you can make it in private practice outside a hospital. And yes, this means choosing specialties that don't have to be hospital based and that have potential for growth with regard to an independent practice.
Last edited:
My entire family is in medicine (13 immediate and extended family members). Every single one of them was making over 300k at 30. Granted, none of them were peds/ID but outside of those specialties not sure where you're getting sub 300k salaries. Take a look at mgma (the only other field that's sub 300k is IM. Not that I plan on going into it, but it's still very possible to pull 300+, my aunt is doing that at a large HMO).
also re: specialization - my brother, an ortho spine guy - did specialize and was still out at 30, but he did finish med school at 23 (I plan to finish at 24 so I will have enough time to do pretty much anything other than nsgy or EP to hit that at 30).
Not trying to be derisive at all and I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I'm not sure why you think medicine isn't a near-guaranteed 300k and would like to see a source on this.
And yeah I totally agree with the ability to be your own boss, which is a big thing for me. It's a really good point to have to choose specialties that lend themselves to that, my brother is a good example.
Note: I am very fortunate to have my parents paying my full med school tuition.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2021
- Messages
- 4,533
- Reaction score
- 4,243
SWEs have no licensure protection. The hypothetical number of physicians is capped. Even if 20 new medical schools opened in the coming years (doubtful), population growth would even out the increase in physicians.
Then you are not in med school in the US. Med school is 4 years, spine is another 6. So if he's graduating at 30 -he started at 20? Ridiculous. You can't even matriculate into 18.
Re-read my post - he graduated medical school at 23, then did 5 yrs ortho + 1 year spine. I am in the US.
Yeah exactly - with me not having debt, it's a lot closer (but I still think SWE comes out ahead).
So I'm just choosing the more secure path for a slightly smaller payout.
Also kinda random but I love offerdx and how he made the UI similar to levels... for SWEs levels.fyi is invaluable.
Yeah makes sense. Also keep in mind that wealth is not just driven by income and debt. Who you marry (and if you stay married), regional arbitrage, investments and big purchases (house) can be just as huge. I find career to be only one of many factors.
I think I read somewhere that doctor couples have lower divorce rates…so there is that
I don't believe that. He went to med school at 19? Highly doubtful.
yep - 6 year medical program, UMKC BA/MD. Google it
Yeah amzn is known to have horrible work-life balance, which is why their hiring standards are so low. I'd really only use it as a pivot to something like google (or a similar rest and vest place); no one really stays at amazon for more than a few years.
Unfortunately, it's my only decent (TC>150k) offer right now. If I got an offer for >230k new grad I think I would go into SWE, at least for a few years. But anything less than that and I'm going to med school.
My man, freaking medicine is guaranteed to have bad work life balance through med school (discounting m4) and residency, bad balance compared to every other job that doesn’t require call and weekends.
I think the conclusion we can all reach is that at least medicine has clear steps. You KNOW you’ll be in med school for 4 years. Then you KNOW you’ll be in residency. Then yes, if you’re prudent about specialty choice, you KNOW you’ll have an upper class salary. With FAANG, there’s still a lot less “knowing” about the career path, but a lot can still be learned from seeing their salaries/hours/etc even as they start out.
Also another general tip, relying on whether people claim to regret medicine is unreliable. If they’ve invested tons of money and time into training, it would have to take a ton of unhappiness to overcome their cognitive dissonance, generally speaking. For this sort of thing, we can only think correlartionally and in terms of common sense
Yeah for sure. I'm totally aware of the sacrifices medicine can take (secondhand) - my brother's son literally asked me if he had a dad when he was 3 years old :/
I 110% agree with you on the idea that med has higher security/is more linear, while FAANG is less protected (to @voxveritatisetlucis's point). I'm just choosing the higher probability, lower value outcome (at least financially).
I think overall, I'll like the two jobs around equally in the long-term (as long as I'm not in primary care - if I don't match and have to scramble into FM, I'll just quit and do SWE/consulting, whichever pays me more...I absolutely abhore FM after seeing the horrible quality of life my 4 family members who are in it have + shadowing).
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 538
- Reaction score
- 897
That's impressive but probably pretty rare. The average age is 24 at matriculation. At a minimum, add 7 years to that. Easily mid-30s after completing a surgery residency and fellowship.
For sure. But I'm also in a similar position (except I'm finishing at 24 not 23), so I think it's still valid in my case.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 463
- Reaction score
- 502
You’re mstp based on your username. How on earth are you doing that.
I'm not mstp lol I was just thinking about it before. But after my parents said they would pay for med school + I lost interest in research I decided it's not worth it.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 463
- Reaction score
- 502
tbh another thing that makes a huge difference in how lucrative medicine is, is how indebted you are when you graduate. Making 300k minimum in your early thirties (averaging across everyone) with little debt beats the vast majority of other jobs out there except higher end swe and high end finance (and I'm sure others too, but those are the main ones).
Not to mention, you do make money during residency, even if it's not an insane amount (60k). And I believe moonlighting is becoming more and more permitted in hospitals. I was reading some derm threads on here with residents making 150-200k in residency via moonlighting. Of course, I def understand that's not the norm.
For sure, that’s another really good point - my brother made around 120 his last 2 years of ortho residency via moonlighting.
Not something I’ll count on, but nice if it happens.
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 218
- Reaction score
- 973
Lol at retiring from medicine at 45.
I took a single gap year which is becoming the norm and will finish residency at 33. At that point I'll have a negative $2-300k net worth despite living modestly. Then even if things go optimally well with getting a job, continuing to live like a resident and saving aggressively the best case scenario is out of debt by my 36th birthday and theoretically enough to retire at 50. That would equate to living a modest lifestyle my entire life despite working considerably harder than the average joe and also in a traditionally higher paying subspecialty. I don't know where that gets spun into this being a good financial decision. I think it truly only starts to pay off when you continue to practice well into your 50s and 60s.
I took a single gap year which is becoming the norm and will finish residency at 33. At that point I'll have a negative $2-300k net worth despite living modestly. Then even if things go optimally well with getting a job, continuing to live like a resident and saving aggressively the best case scenario is out of debt by my 36th birthday and theoretically enough to retire at 50. That would equate to living a modest lifestyle my entire life despite working considerably harder than the average joe and also in a traditionally higher paying subspecialty. I don't know where that gets spun into this being a good financial decision. I think it truly only starts to pay off when you continue to practice well into your 50s and 60s.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2021
- Messages
- 4,533
- Reaction score
- 4,243
I don’t understand the desire to retire at 45. What do you even do for the next 30 years? I feel like things would get boring. Life needs meaning. Of course it is possible to find meaning outside of a career, but it is more difficult imo.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 463
- Reaction score
- 502
yea, if you plan on retiring early then medicine goes from being pretty lucrative compared to most jobs to borderline stupid. My goal is to improve and expand until I'm old, gradually finding a better and better work life balance.
Then again, I'm set on a highly competitive specialty haha.
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2021
- Messages
- 89
- Reaction score
- 153
My dream is to become financially independent so that the way I practice medicine won’t be beholden to other factors. See fewer patients for longer periods of time? Sure, I don’t need the money. Take a month off to do a medical mission trip? Sure, I don’t need the money. Take on more Medicaid/Medicare patients? Sure, I don’t need the money. Take more days off? Same answer. More vacation, more leisure, more time with family, all possible if I’m financially independent.
I feel like once I am financially independent I will get to practice medicine the way I want to, making medicine a brain stimulating and lucrative hobby with the chance to do a lot of good. I don’t plan to retire at 45, but I don’t plan on working full time for the rest of my life either!
@voxveritatisetlucis
I think this is easiest to find in medicine… even though there’s a lot of doom and gloom about how PE firms and big groups are gobbling up private practices, I still think the most straightforward path to being my own boss is thru medicine, but only with certain specialties/geographic areas.
This is exactly how I feel. It’s not that I specifically want to retire at 45, but I want to be financially independent, so maybe I can work in a free clinic half my time, or I can go overseas and help in disaster relief when I feel like it. Just having that control over my life is something that I really want.
I think this is easiest to find in medicine… even though there’s a lot of doom and gloom about how PE firms and big groups are gobbling up private practices, I still think the most straightforward path to being my own boss is thru medicine, but only with certain specialties/geographic areas.
I think my situation is a little unique because (1) I will have no debt and (2) I will finish Med school at 24, so I‘ll almost certainly finish residency before I’m 30. This gives me a little more time than most others, and with compounding I think I can hit my number at 45.
But that age 45 isn’t set in stone. I’ll more prioritize flexibility in my day to day life than saving some huge amount of money just so I can retire at 45. It’s just a tentative goal. But I definitely want to be financially independent by 50, which many of my other family members who are physicians are.
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 218
- Reaction score
- 973
So clearly Medicine does not set a "linear path to making $300k at 30 and retiring at 45". You are using your own unique and extremely fortuitous circumstances easily a standard deviation or two from the average to generalize to the average person and yet still despite these circumstances it's still a mere possibility reach FI at 45. The average age at graduation is 28, not 24, and the average med school debt is $240k. You are starting on third base and suggesting it's just as easy for everyone else to get to home. Disingenuous and lacking perspective.
D
deleted1114112
So you have a wealthy family, had the resources to get an advanced program and early placement into medical school to yield early graduation, and your parents will pay for your entire medical school education and probably rent and other supplementary costs.
Yeah I'm sure you can literally do anything and will be fine lmfao, not sure why you are talking about SWE on this thread when you have the literal dream for 99% of people who often don't have people to pay for them or give them those resources early on. For most people deciding between tech and medicine, cost is the factor; at least for me, deciding between a near mid-6 figure tech job and some med schools.
Brutal truth: it’s definitely at least a double digit percentage of students in each med school class who get free schooling on account of their parents paying for it. And yes, these students are too very susceptible to burnout just like everyone else
But yea parents paying for medical school entirely is actually a big factor contributing to tuition rise. Plenty of parents will pay for med school no matter how much it costs. At least that’s what we’ve seen up till present day
Last edited:
Honestly man, my advice is if you can finish even sooner than 30 by picking another decently paying subspecialty, try to do that. Being that young and making attending money is definitely an asset. Tomorrow we could have yet another pandemic for all we know
Idk why you’re harping on FM. If you like clinic there are all sorts of ways to make it much more efficient and lucrative. Can you go into detail what your beef is with FM?
D
deleted1114112
I definitely wouldn't deny this—the field is incredibly skewed. But obviously there's a lot of people who get weeded out before med school or during med school due to lack of such support. Trust me as someone going to a very 'wealthy' undergrad, I see it all the time...those kids who get research/pubs because of a connection, or those who can work in like 2 labs because they don't need to be paid/can afford to work for free, etc.. Obviously by the end of path a lot of people will be those that are supported by parents or money, but I doubt it's that way initially.
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2021
- Messages
- 89
- Reaction score
- 153
I’m working for FM rn, and for one, it’s a charting nightmare lol. Older patients who have been seen for a long time can stack up 10 different chronic conditions + 10 different chronic meds and still be seen for 3-5 new problems during a visit. (I’m the scribe, and while the breadth of practice is super wide, FM seems like a lot of work.)
I was talking about SWE because I was deciding between SWE and medicine (I majored in CS at a T10 college so I’m getting some good offers rn). But I totally see where you’re coming from. I’m very very grateful that I’m in a super lucky position. Thank you for the perspective
For sure. So the main reason I’m not going into tech and instead want to become a doctor is that I think I’ll feel a lot more useful as a doc. As in, I’ll feel like I’m genuinely accomplishing something and improving my community welfare.
For the family members I know (which I admit could be a very skewed perspective) that are in FM/outpatient IM, most of their time is spent (1) doing social work, (2) trying to convince obese, hypertensive people to work out and take their meds, both of which they know will not happen because it hasn’t happened the last 10 visits and (3) charting (but dragon dictation has dramatically cut down on this)
That sort of job isn’t one that I’d feel like I’m positively impacting the world.
On the other hand, rodding someone’s femur so they can walk again is something I’d feel like I am having a clear positive impact doing.
Just to be clear, I’m not ragging on FM, I’m just giving my perspective from what I’ve seen.
D
deleted1114112
I am in the same position UG/SWE wise. I will also add that if you are from T10s aside from JHU or WashU or any of those pseudo targets then you should have no issue securing a job that is a.) better than FAANG money wise and/or b.) better than FAANG lifestyle and just job-wise. I have a mediocre recruiting profile with no formal internships but did extremely well with what I had. Learn the system and know where and what to target. Not many people do, myself included, so talk to those who actually know instead of people who just take return offers from a amzn internship or apply randomly.
On the other hand I see literally no reason to not take a free medical school ride. That is just insane. I know many T10s give them out anyway but this essentially guarantees you can walk out with zero debt even from a decent mid-tier school if you aren't lucky enough to get merit elsewhere. If you like the job it's definitely better, and fulfillment is better, etc. (another discussion); idk about hours since most good SWEs these days, at least what I was offered, have you working like 30 hours with half of that being remote...but obviously the work is most likely relatively boring.
Yeah I have an amzn return offer but I think I'm going the med route. The main thing for me is the fulfillment, I'm super lucky that I don't have to think about money so much and can just consider what I like.
And I will def get much more fulfillment via the med route. I know that WLB will be better as a SWE, but SWE in general is just extremely boring, especially infrastructure stuff; I've done some of that but I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything writing integration tests for some useless API. I'd rather work hard for something I enjoy (medicine) than chill and make 200k next year doing some boring job that doesn't change anything about the world around me (like most SWEs do).
The only fun I've had is working backend in a health-tech startup. We actually just got funding from a huge industry player which is super cool. I love when I can make major design decisions and stuff like that. But I can't stand 90% of SWE jobs even if I'm making >200 so I think I have a higher chance of liking what I do as a doctor.
Agreed. While I don't agree that it takes that much to build up a good nest egg, It makes no sense to retire at 45. I think you can make a good chunk of change and save it (I was able to save >500k within about a year and a half of this job), and plan on continuing to do so, my house is paid off but I'd go bored out of my mind if I retired at 45. Wouldn't know what ot do with myself. I'd probably drive my husband crazy lol.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2019
- Messages
- 96
- Reaction score
- 177
Quite an interesting thread to read through. I honestly had no idea people were making so much in tech. I knew they made a decent amount of money, but I thought it was in the $100k-200k range and not like $500k-1 million+. I am curious as to how hard those jobs are to get, because from my limited sample size, nobody I know is making that kind of money, and I went to a Top 10 undergrad and mostly hung out with the smarter students throughout high school and college.
From the few people in tech I know, they are making low six figures, not even enough to match family medicine money (though to be fair they are early in their careers). As for investment banking/business, most people I know are not making six figures, while the few that are don't make more than like $200k and are working ridiculous hours on top of that.
It seems tech really is the way to go nowadays. I would still tell people to pick medicine over business since the business/banking jobs that make high six figures or more seem to be more dependent on connections and luck rather than skill and worth ethic, but the way medicine is going, I can't see how it is in any way better than tech unless you just like the field of medicine better than tech. If I ever have kids, I definitely won't encourage them to go into medicine since it looks to be much more work for much less reward.
For some reason medicine still attracts the brightest students right now, but sadly I think that will begin to change very soon. Medicine is heading in the opposite direction it should be going if it wants to compete with the tech fields for the best students.
From the few people in tech I know, they are making low six figures, not even enough to match family medicine money (though to be fair they are early in their careers). As for investment banking/business, most people I know are not making six figures, while the few that are don't make more than like $200k and are working ridiculous hours on top of that.
It seems tech really is the way to go nowadays. I would still tell people to pick medicine over business since the business/banking jobs that make high six figures or more seem to be more dependent on connections and luck rather than skill and worth ethic, but the way medicine is going, I can't see how it is in any way better than tech unless you just like the field of medicine better than tech. If I ever have kids, I definitely won't encourage them to go into medicine since it looks to be much more work for much less reward.
For some reason medicine still attracts the brightest students right now, but sadly I think that will begin to change very soon. Medicine is heading in the opposite direction it should be going if it wants to compete with the tech fields for the best students.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2021
- Messages
- 4,533
- Reaction score
- 4,243
I’m pretty sure that most tech people making 500+ are in finance, particularly roles that are based on an “eat what you kill” compensation model. Don’t get me wrong, the base salary for these positions isn’t too shabby. But for example, one position at a quant hedgefund where I interviewed (didn’t get the job) was offering 90 base + 1x bonus. In the most junior roles, bonuses are less variable and tend to be a function of group performance, since at that level, most work involves back testing ideas and due diligence rather than making investments: However, the hr manager that I talked to said that within a couple years, the bonus figure could range anywhere from nothing to 3x-5x depending upon how much money is made for the firm.
The truth seems to be that it’s been way easier in the past 5 years to get in the 100-250k range right out of college and stay there. As for getting above that, I imagine that’s what’s truly hard.
But even with these people getting to that range, they stay ahead of most physicians for a very long time. Definitely throughout all the younger adult years
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 463
- Reaction score
- 502
200k+ jobs are certainly hard to get, but involve more nepotism and prestige-related connections than getting into med school for the most part, so they're very easy for some and much harder for others. That said, for your average applicant without connections that goes to a mediocre school, it's still doable. My school for example isn't even T100 for CS and sends about 5 students a year to 200k ish jobs and probably about 20 to 150k ish out of about 200 CS related major students that actually end up doing something in CS, which is only 2.5%.
However, thing is, T25 for CS isn't the same as the standard top school that is hard to get into. For example, penn state is a T25 CS school, where about 20% of the CS graduating class entering CS jobs seem to land a starting job at at least 150k. However, penn state isn't exactly a hard school to get into, and the requirement to do CS there is an internal GPA limit (if you hit it, you're in the program). So a lot of CS really comes down to are you smart enough to choose the right school to enter and keep your GPA above a 3.0 rather than a question about getting into very difficult to enter schools.
Also, from a good number of my friends that are working in FAANG and FAANG-type jobs, getting 200k isn't THAT hard (especially down the line, like 10 yoe), and getting promoted above isn't terribly hard either at first, but there is a general consensus that income for most will flatline around 350k after 5-10 yoe post getting 200k. You can absolutely get promoted past that and make 500k-1 mil but it is significantly harder than this initial step.
Yeah FAANG salaries start pretty high, but don't get much higher for your average swe. I agree that ~350 is the flatline for most people. (you can actually filter by YOE on levels).
But still - that's more than MGMA says the average IM doc makes, and that's without the grind of med school, residency, or debt, so this SWE is making that after 5/7 years.
I'd really like to see a salary comparison of lifetime earnings between the average doc and FAANG SWEs. It'd have to take into account compounding, but that shouldn't be too hard.
FAANG did not truly exist before 2014, and there’s not much else analogous to it from the past that will be worth comparing. Honestly though, up till age 40 generally speaking, average FAANG SWE will absolutely have outearned average physician, especially once you consider that 50-60% of all docs are in primary care. Hell, even the subspecialists took lots of time to get there and generally had lots of loans accruing.
And vast majority of people in gap years obviously are not earning 6 figs
This is a great thread. I hope sdn can keep talking about practical topics like these and not get into pointless online one-upping like it generally has for all of its existence
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2021
- Messages
- 463
- Reaction score
- 502
Yea, I would second this. Also loved this thread.
A FAANG SWE will basically be making 350k by the time a doctor finishes residency, if not a little earlier (this also assumes the doctor went straight from undergrad). Assuming a flatline of 350k (for most) at about 7-10 yoe, and a debt of about 200k for doctors who begin earning attending salary at age 32, a doctor would have to make about 500k (from year 1 of attending) if there was a post tax rate of about 35% for swe and 40% for doctors to break ahead by age 50, assuming swe also put side roth ira and 401k. I estimated and rounded a lot here, so don't take this too specifically.
To get ahead by age 40
I would guess 500k is probably at least the 80th percentile of doctors as a whole, maybe closer to 90th percentile, though obviously varies by specialty.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2021
- Messages
- 4,533
- Reaction score
- 4,243
Most FAANGM engineers I know spend an absurd amount on rent/living expenses. From what I can tell, they don’t put that much into investments/savings. 200k in SF/SV is like 85k in most areas, especially after taxes. CA is planning to doubt state taxes in next budget.
Well same issues apply to physicians who want to live in NY or CA, and I assure you, that’s at least 50% of the people in med school right now lmao. Thankfully I’m not in that 50%
That said, it makes sense that physicians would prefer bigger cities, but many of them are absolutely banking on NY and CA no question
Similar threads
