"Our peers in tech and other non-medicine fields are making 6 figures already"

[psyspy]

In fairness much of these FAANG salaries are coming from stock. No empire lasts forever and FAANG certainly will not, but no one can predict when it will end

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[allseasons]

Well same issues apply to physicians who want to live in NY or CA, and I assure you, that’s at least 50% of the people in med school right now lmao. Thankfully I’m not in that 50%

That said, it makes sense that physicians would prefer bigger cities, but many of them are absolutely banking on NY and CA no question

Another important difference is medicine makes the most in the lowest COL areas while tech makes the most in highest COL areas. This is both a blessing and a curse depending on the individual. I didn’t account for any living costs.

I think saying 200k becomes 85k is a bit of an exaggeration. Factoring in COL according to my friends and online calculators it’s probably 110k if you’re looking to own a home and 140k if you’re renting in a nearby suburb.

Although, as mentioned, a substantial portion of TC being stock decreases your current living income and it’s unknown exactly what could happen long term (although I really doubt tech will completely collapse).

A biggest risk is to currently unprofitable companies like Netflix that are valued at hundreds of billlions. The valuation is based purely on expectations of future profit. If their incoming cash flow decreases, they’re screwed.

 

[psyspy]

Honestly sure lots of people in tech/finance have had it made since 2015 or so, but a bubble popping seems to be coming for this year (look it up), and it could be quite bad. In 2008-2009, physician salaries if I remember correctly were hardly affected by the housing bubble.

The fed is also set to tighten inflation because it’s gotten crazy through the past decade or so

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Honestly sure lots of people in tech/finance have had it made since 2015 or so, but a bubble popping seems to be coming for this year (look it up), and it could be quite bad. In 2008-2009, physician salaries if I remember correctly were hardly affected by the housing bubble.

The fed is also set to tighten inflation because it’s gotten crazy through the past decade or so

Apparently attending salaries actually increased by 5% during GFC. I mean, I’m pretty sure that even the lowest paid doctors usually make around 250k pay year. Even in a relatively high tax state like NY, this is 6300 dollars after tax every two weeks. Even as somebody who makes decent compensation in gap year job, this seems like a lot of money. Mortgage on a 700000 dollar house is like 3500. Even if other expenses come out to another 3500, one could still put the remaining 5800 per month into investments and never touch it. Starting at 30, 5800 per month would mean that one would have at least 5.0million (8% ROR) and possibly 9.2million(12%ROR) by age 55.

If a doctor marries another doctor or enters a speciality these numbers more than double. Is it enough to buy an Aston Martin or build a compound in Malibu? Probably not, but more than enough to live comfortably imo.

 

[deleted1114112]

Another important difference is medicine makes the most in the lowest COL areas while tech makes the most in highest COL areas. This is both a blessing and a curse depending on the individual. I didn’t account for any living costs.

Beyond this, salary also varies a lot by location outside of COL. Using mohs as an example, the median salary in the midwest is 910k while in the east coast it is 600k. That's a massive difference. Midwest seems to be consistently higher for almost every specialty and the west also; these differences are huge when looking at higher paying specialties. Milwaukee WI is top 5 in physician compensation—obviously a great city but not somewhere most people are striving to live haha.

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Undergrad who goes to top consulting firm makes about $90k with $10-20k bonus. Can advance to Associate partner in 5-6 years with salary plus bonus around $450-500k. No graduate degree; no MBA...just undergrad.

And spends 3 days a week in a hotel easily and doesn’t stop when they get more senior. Lame-o

 

[ER BlueBlood]

2 years out of undergrad with a B.S. in Biology and I was making a 6 figure salary already working in sales at SaaS technology companies in Silicon Valley. If I stayed in sales instead of leaving to do research to get into medical school, I would of easily been making 300K per year 5 years in. Good SaaS tech sales reps (half your salary is commission-based) and software engineers make significantly more than your average physician and only ever have a bachelor's degree. If your reason for going to medical school is just to make bank as a physician then you've chosen the wrong career path. There are other professional careers that pay significantly better and require much less student loan debt and fewer years of education. I personally left a very lucrative career and a job I really excelled at to pursue medical school because I wanted to help people; financially, medical school is not the smart move for me as I will incur a lot more debt and make significantly less income as a physician (unless I specialize in neurosurgery or plastics). Hopefully most people going to medical school are not in it for the money.

Oh most of them are IMO and excelling for long periods in many of the other professions mentioned in this thread is not easy, thread is making it all seem like it’s cake compared to medicine which isn’t even close to accurate

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

And spends 3 days a week in a hotel easily and doesn’t stop when they get more senior. Lame-o

I travel a decent amount for work and don’t mind hotels. Actually one of the best parts of the job imo. Especially since we can bill meals and such.

Oh most of them are IMO and excelling for long periods in many of the other professions mentioned in this thread is not easy, thread is making it all seem like it’s cake compared to medicine which isn’t even close to accurate

This. It seemed like the post regarding consultants was making it seem like a relatively straight path to upper levels at consulting firms. In the aggregate, I would estimate that mckinsey, Bain, and BCG have annual attrition rates above 10% and likely double or triple that at key milestones (2-3 years in)

 

[Konigstiger]

I am pretty certain that medicine has not been attracting the brightest students for at least the past 4-5 years. I attended one of HYPSM for undergrad and a large number of our smartest students chose to study some combination of mathematics, statistics, or computer science.

That's not been my experience at all. I attended a Top 10 university and anecdotally speaking, it seemed about half of the top students chose medicine while the other half either chose computer science or finance. On a more objective note, medicine is only getting more and more competitive, both for medical school admission as well as the residency match. Even the students at the DO school I attend are way more intelligent on average than the finance/comp sci majors at my highly-ranked undergrad university.

I wish what you were saying were true. At least then the profession of medicine would be forced to make some changes to match the tech fields, but right now the demand for medical school is still way higher than it should be.

 

[allseasons]

That's not been my experience at all. I attended a Top 10 university and anecdotally speaking, it seemed about half of the top students chose medicine while the other half either chose computer science or finance. On a more objective note, medicine is only getting more and more competitive, both for medical school admission as well as the residency match. Even the students at the DO school I attend are way more intelligent on average than the finance/comp sci majors at my highly-ranked undergrad university.

I wish what you were saying were true. At least then the profession of medicine would be forced to make some changes to match the tech fields, but right now the demand for medical school is still way higher than it should be.

Definitely agree with the last part, but I don't know that the first part is true. Of course, I can't speak to your university, but Harvard has done an analysis of its graduates, and I imagine it would look somewhat similar across the T10.

The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017 By the Numbers

When Harvard College’s Class of 2017 departs Cambridge this week, they will leave a campus in the midst of a debate about its values and enter a professional world in the middle of a contentious dispute over its own direction.

features.thecrimson.com

18% consulting, 18% finance, 15% technology. Only 5% went into healthcare fields, which includes MD, DO, Dental, Pharm, Nursing, not just medicine. It does, however, exclude MD-PhD, which would fall under academia (7%) alongside just PhDs. I would estimate about 3% of Harvard grads end up pursuing MDs and 1% MD PhD.

Just a personal anecdote, but every single one of my friends who entered T15 unis planning to be pre-med ultimate switched to CS, finance, or consulting. Quite frankly, had I know the immense amount of money in tech and the ease of getting it (especially with connections and prestige- both my parents work in tech and I got into Cornell though didn't go) I likely would have chosen that career path. I'm honestly still considering it, as I have a CS degree. I could never do finance or consulting though. Even if there is money the lifestyle sucks for a while and the job doesn't seem enticing in any way.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Definitely agree with the last part, but I don't know that the first part is true. Of course, I can't speak to your university, but Harvard has done an analysis of its graduates, and I imagine it would look somewhat similar across the T10.

The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017 By the Numbers

When Harvard College’s Class of 2017 departs Cambridge this week, they will leave a campus in the midst of a debate about its values and enter a professional world in the middle of a contentious dispute over its own direction.

features.thecrimson.com

18% consulting, 18% finance, 15% technology. Only 5% went into healthcare fields, which includes MD, DO, Dental, Pharm, Nursing, not just medicine. It does, however, exclude MD-PhD, which would fall under academia (7%) alongside just PhDs. I would estimate about 3% of Harvard grads end up pursuing MDs and 1% MD PhD.

Just a personal anecdote, but every single one of my friends who entered T15 unis planning to be pre-med ultimate switched to CS, finance, or consulting. Quite frankly, had I know the immense amount of money in tech and the ease of getting it (especially with connections and prestige- both my parents work in tech and I got into Cornell though didn't go) I likely would have chosen that career path. I'm honestly still temple, as I have a CS degree. I could never do finance or consulting though. Even if there is money the lifestyle sucks for a while and the job doesn't seem enticing in any way.

Many people who take premed classes at these schools will do consulting or finance gap year before applying to medical school.

Also, A 3.0 at Harvard can you an analyst role at a boutique investment bank if you have some connections, but won’t get you into an allopathic medical school

 

[Holland]

Definitely agree with the last part, but I don't know that the first part is true. Of course, I can't speak to your university, but Harvard has done an analysis of its graduates, and I imagine it would look somewhat similar across the T10.

The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017 By the Numbers

When Harvard College’s Class of 2017 departs Cambridge this week, they will leave a campus in the midst of a debate about its values and enter a professional world in the middle of a contentious dispute over its own direction.

features.thecrimson.com

18% consulting, 18% finance, 15% technology. Only 5% went into healthcare fields, which includes MD, DO, Dental, Pharm, Nursing, not just medicine. It does, however, exclude MD-PhD, which would fall under academia (7%) alongside just PhDs. I would estimate about 3% of Harvard grads end up pursuing MDs and 1% MD PhD.

Just a personal anecdote, but every single one of my friends who entered T15 unis planning to be pre-med ultimate switched to CS, finance, or consulting. Quite frankly, had I know the immense amount of money in tech and the ease of getting it (especially with connections and prestige- both my parents work in tech and I got into Cornell though didn't go) I likely would have chosen that career path. I'm honestly still temple, as I have a CS degree. I could never do finance or consulting though. Even if there is money the lifestyle sucks for a while and the job doesn't seem enticing in any way.

Does this only include people who matriculated directly into med school? I would imagine the number of Harvard grads ultimately going to med school within the next few years would increase that percentage pretty significantly.

 

[Konigstiger]

Definitely agree with the last part, but I don't know that the first part is true. Of course, I can't speak to your university, but Harvard has done an analysis of its graduates, and I imagine it would look somewhat similar across the T10.

The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017 By the Numbers

When Harvard College’s Class of 2017 departs Cambridge this week, they will leave a campus in the midst of a debate about its values and enter a professional world in the middle of a contentious dispute over its own direction.

features.thecrimson.com

18% consulting, 18% finance, 15% technology. Only 5% went into healthcare fields, which includes MD, DO, Dental, Pharm, Nursing, not just medicine. It does, however, exclude MD-PhD, which would fall under academia (7%) alongside just PhDs. I would estimate about 3% of Harvard grads end up pursuing MDs and 1% MD PhD.

Just a personal anecdote, but every single one of my friends who entered T15 unis planning to be pre-med ultimate switched to CS, finance, or consulting. Quite frankly, had I know the immense amount of money in tech and the ease of getting it (especially with connections and prestige- both my parents work in tech and I got into Cornell though didn't go) I likely would have chosen that career path. I'm honestly still temple, as I have a CS degree. I could never do finance or consulting though. Even if there is money the lifestyle sucks for a while and the job doesn't seem enticing in any way.

Yeah, I was just speaking from my personal experience, so I could have been wrong. Out of curiosity, I looked up my school for that same year, and it seems that about 35% of people go to graduate school, and of that number, 32% is engineering/comp sci-related while 37% is healthcare related. However, this doesn't take into account the fact that the majority of medical school applicants (including myself) usually spend a year doing something else before going to medical school, so I would assume the number applying to medical school is actually much higher than is reported with this data.

 

[Proudfather94]

I feel that just chasing money when one is career searching is a great way to end up miserable. While one's not making the most money they potentially can by going into medicine if you enjoy helping people you may be happier in the long run. Working a higher paying job and being miserable might make you spend more money too. I know people who's stress coping mechanism is to shop so one may spend more of their money going into tech if they hate it.

 

[psyspy]

I feel that just chasing money when one is career searching is a great way to end up miserable. While one's not making the most money they potentially can by going into medicine if you enjoy helping people you may be happier in the long run. Working a higher paying job and being miserable might make you spend more money too. I know people who's stress coping mechanism is to shop so one may spend more of their money going into tech if they hate it.

In all fields of medicine there is a cap on fulfillment on account of external factors such as appeasing admins, appeasing insurance companies, etc. Chasing less money because you think you’ll be more fulfilled in another specialty/field (when you probably don’t even know the entire reality of said discipline and just had a 4 week rotation on it) isn’t necessarily advisable either. You have to balance both

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

There’s diminishing marginal utility on incomes above 150k (but this number is more likely 250k in many areas such as California and New York). Also that number is probably also reflecting family/kids.

If you plan to have your kids go to private high school, you’ll need to put 50000k into an investment account when you find out you’re pregnant (assuming no adding year by year after initial lump sum added). If you plan to pay for their college as well, you’ll need to put 38000k in similar account (need less since there is more time for it to accrue while kid is in high school). That’s 88000k per kid. Just goes to show how expensive that can be compared to salary that somebody without kids finds comfortable.

 

[psyspy]

There’s diminishing marginal utility on incomes above 150k (but this number is more likely 250k in many areas such as California and New York). Also that number is probably also reflecting family/kids.

Disagree. More money means more to invest. Diminishing returns are seen at far higher levels of income

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Disagree. More money means more to invest. Diminishing returns are seen at far higher levels of income

True but assuming a 33% tax rate, 250000 is 12400 per month take home. Even if bills are 5000 a month, gives you 7400 a month to invest. In 30 years at 10% compound annual growth rate, that would be ~14000000.

 

[jhmmd]

There’s diminishing marginal utility on incomes above 150k (but this number is more likely 250k in many areas such as California and New York). Also that number is probably also reflecting family/kids.

If you plan to have your kids go to private high school, you’ll need to put 50000k into an investment account when you find out you’re pregnant (assuming no adding year by year after initial lump sum added). If you plan to pay for their college as well, you’ll need to put 38000k in similar account (need less since there is more time for it to accrue while kid is in high school). That’s 88000k per kid. Just goes to show how expensive that can be compared to salary that somebody without kids finds comfortable.

I don't know where you are getting these numbers but a lot of people have to make do with far less
88,000k is 88 million dollars.
/reality
/thread

 

[psyspy]

True but assuming a 33% tax rate, 250000 is 12400 per month take home. Even if bills are 5000 a month, gives you 7400 a month to invest. In 30 years at 10% compound annual growth rate, that would be ~14000000.

A lot can happen in 30 years. That not something to bank on. You’re going to want plenty of shorter term investments too

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

disregard the ks lol

 

[psyspy]

Something else no one talks about is when you do make attending money, many of you will already be married and/or have children. That’s quite different and comes with increased responsibilities and I daresay restraints compared to having some kind of means (not necessarily attending money) when you’re in your 20s/single

 

[allseasons]

Many people who take premed classes at these schools will do consulting or finance gap year before applying to medical school.

Also, A 3.0 at Harvard can you an analyst role at a boutique investment bank if you have some connections, but won’t get you into an allopathic medical school

Does this only include people who matriculated directly into med school? I would imagine the number of Harvard grads ultimately going to med school within the next few years would increase that percentage pretty significantly.

Excellent points and questions. I went back and reread the article, more closely this time:

• A plurality—16 percent—of the Class of 2017 believes that, 10 years from now, they will be employed in the healthcare industry. Twelve percent anticipate working in academia, and 10 percent foresee employment in government.
• While 18 percent of respondents will work in consulting immediately following graduation, only 1 percent believe they will be consulting in 10 years.

If 16% expect to be employed in healthcare in 10 years, I would expect at least 10% (probably closer to 12-14%) aspire to an MD, though I wonder how many end up going through with that.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It seems like at top colleges, getting into med school is much harder than getting into finance or consulting but at most other schools I would say med school is easier than finance (but still not easy of course. I would never say that med school admissions are easy)

 

[Dogruffle01]

And spends 3 days a week in a hotel easily and doesn’t stop when they get more senior. Lame-o

Also most consultants take time for a 2 year MBA before they become VP, which is the level at which people make the 400-500k salaries. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clearadmit.com/2018/05/mckinsey-company-mbas/amp/

Granted , it’s paid for most of the time, but it’s 2 years lost income.

 

[allseasons]

It seems like at top colleges, getting into med school is much harder than getting into finance or consulting but at most other schools I would say med school is easier than finance (but still not easy of course. I would never say that med school admissions are easy)

I would say the same for tech, just not to the same degree. However, top tech colleges have a much better curriculum than lower colleges. My college taught me less for my CS adjacent major than a single class on the same topic taught my friend at a T25 CS program.

 

[allseasons]

Also most consultants take time for a 2 year MBA before they become VP, which is the level at which people make the 400-500k salaries. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clearadmit.com/2018/05/mckinsey-company-mbas/amp/

Granted , it’s paid for most of the time, but it’s 2 years lost income.

btw, what are the first five digits on your SSN?

 

[Dogruffle01]

btw, what are the first five digits on your SSN?

91265... weird thing to ask for someone’s storage system number, I think I just have old books in there.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Tech Layoffs: US Companies With Job Cuts In and 2023 and 2024

Tech layoffs: More than 300,000 workers at US-based tech companies have been laid off in mass job cuts since the start of 2022, with the cuts continuing in 2024.

news.crunchbase.com

Tesla planning to lay off 10%

 

[psyspy]

I think everyone who went into medicine between 2009-2020 or so are gonna have some arguably valid financial regrets as they’ve seen their peers in other fields take full advantage of the bull run in said years, but as we go into a recession, maybe the most recent trainees will change their tune…that said this bear run could easily impact certain specialties too given the ensuing nursing shortage (and therefore “healthcare shortage” to be exploited)

 

[psyspy]

Tech Layoffs: US Companies With Job Cuts In and 2023 and 2024

Tech layoffs: More than 300,000 workers at US-based tech companies have been laid off in mass job cuts since the start of 2022, with the cuts continuing in 2024.

news.crunchbase.com

Tesla planning to lay off 10%

Doesn’t even include the attrition from the 40h office mandate

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Doesn’t even include the attrition from the 40h office mandate

Which is intentional to avoid severance packages anyway

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I think everyone who went into medicine between 2009-2020 or so are gonna have some arguably valid financial regrets as they’ve seen their peers in other fields take full advantage of the bull run in said years, but as we go into a recession, maybe the most recent trainees will change their tune…that said this bear run could easily impact certain specialties too given the ensuing nursing shortage (and therefore “healthcare shortage” to be exploited)

Sort of. If you're competent and valued in your industry, a recession is when you should be accumulating wealth to invest in a beaten-down market.

 

[PhillyMed777]

I think everyone who went into medicine between 2009-2020 or so are gonna have some arguably valid financial regrets as they’ve seen their peers in other fields take full advantage of the bull run in said years, but as we go into a recession, maybe the most recent trainees will change their tune…that said this bear run could easily impact certain specialties too given the ensuing nursing shortage (and therefore “healthcare shortage” to be exploited)

Yup this
The tech bubble is bursting. Next decade will be different. Cheap money is going, going, gone. Artificially inflated company valuations for companies that don’t make money is going away.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Yup this
The tech bubble is bursting. Next decade will be different. Cheap money is going, going, gone. Artificially inflated company valuations for companies that don’t make money is going away.

Been around for a while, they've been saying this since 2013.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Layoffs of this scale haven’t happened in a while. Of course there are always going to be idiosyncratic (company specific) layoffs, but this feels more industry wide.

Accumulating wealth during recessions can be hard, even for superstars in certain industries. For example, during the GFC, top bankers were able to keep their jobs but got terrible bonuses (where most of the compensation comes from at upper levels). Usually, these people live as if they are going to get a big bonus. So when they don’t, they can find themselves underwater.

 

[ujsc]

Hi OP, I work in pharma and with base, bonus, stocks etc, my package is about $300k right now. I am in my late twenties and have a PhD. Six figures is not that high anymore in certain fields, my friends in tech/finance with Bachelor's or Masters make even more than me especially at the big companies.

How long will that last before layoffs occur?

 

[psyspy]

Other possibility is that there is no crash but just a long gradual decline...also keep in mind this could screw up medicine even more due to hospitals cutting costs by replacing physicians with midlevels.

Tech might very well be the only industry setting that gets significantly hurt due to its overvaluing by investors, CEOs, etc, which hasn't seemed to be the case for finance or consulting

 

[psyspy]

Honestly though we have to agreed stuff’s a bit pathetic. Hoping for a recession in other sectors just because ours wasn’t what many of us thought it would be. Not saying all my peers in med school have this mindset, but honestly many do

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Some hope for a recession to invest at lower valuations. Also, without a recession, inflation will keep rising. It’s pretty logical for those who aren’t in the workforce (ie med students) to hope things cool off

 

[DZ2106]

Everyone I talked to who is actually in tech says that this will definitely be a rough year. Multiple companies reporting mass layoffs or at least a freezing of new hires. Just deciding whether I should put my money where my mouth is...

 

[psyspy]

Everyone I talked to who is actually in tech says that this will definitely be a rough year. Multiple companies reporting mass layoffs or at least a freezing of new hires. Just deciding whether I should put my money where my mouth is...

What do you mean? Are you shorting Tesla FAANG or something lol

 

[DZ2106]

What do you mean? Are you shorting Tesla FAANG or something lol

Yea, part of me is thinking that’s a stupid idea cuz they’re all down ~40% already, but all my friends are in tech and they’re telling me things will get worse

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I currently have short positions in both TLT and QQQ. However, I offset the short legs of my trades with an equal amount of long exposure to other funds that I believe will outperform (most recently XLE).

I think that going short only is risky considering that markets are upward trending in general

 

[Select All That Apply]

It's interesting how people are moving back towards brick & motor, physical oriented assets, real estate, cars (new & used), etc. It's almost like the aftermath of the dot.com crash in which people like Burton Malkiel and Peter Thiel brought up how the overspeculation in the tech sector resulted in people overvaluing assets like houses. In a way, priming the subprime mortgage crisis to the extent in which so many people were consumed with tulip mania that FRED reported delinquency rates on single family residential mortgages began to far outpace delinquency rates on cred card loans from late 2009/early 2010 into 2020.

Market analysts sort of deluded us into believing that valuations in the tech sector made sense because big tech companies within FANG and QQQ were not your typical pets.com sort of enterprise and also that tech enabled markets advantages like in-app forms of cross selling and verticals to consumers that would enable companies to have exponential growth that justified the unrealistic P/E ratios that these companies were being valued at several years in advance. The market appeared to not have internalized the idea that we were in tulip mania even after the Nasdaq whale event around September of 2020 in which Masayoshi Son aggressively utilized call options in order to raise FANG stocks to trigger a feedback loop in which investors would be further lured by increasing share prices to invest more money into stocks that he already had sizable assets within his investment firm, Softbank. Although markets did withdraw following revelations of what was happening, nearly all FANG companies were back to the unrealistic August valuations propped up by Softbank by Q1 of 2021, if not all of them by Q2 of 2021.