P1 hicp students

[JohnUNLV]

John- I am simply here as a messenger. I am here to tell others what HICP has done. But it bothers me that you came to this forum, not with the intention of setting the record straight as you claimed, but to become the mouthpiece of HICP's shortcomings and to act as a bulldog to those who disagreed with you. For example, It is you who called many veterans on this forum "ignorant" because we were telling others that HICP has no precandidate status. If you want to set the record straight, then explain why did the dean (the biochemistry "king") and associate deans of your school tell you and the rest of your classmates (some are "trolls") that HICP has pre-candidate status or why so many of your classmates are not passing their exams? I am not here to offend anyone but I do not apologize for being blunt and more importantly, for telling the truth.

First of all, quit the "holier than thou" routine, its extremely aggrivating.

I AM in fact here to tell everyone of my first hand experience and knowledge of HICP, not to be a bulldog .

I honestly have no answer for your question about pre-candidate status, clearly I was wrong and I am man enough to admit it. I will certainly be bringing up this point next time I speak with any dean, believe me. I will report the results of that conversation to you all if you would like.

Every class has students who dont pass their exams, but its not as if there is a huge failure rate. I mean come on, name a single exam where everyone passed? Not to mention getting 240 students to pass. Considering you have to get 80% every time, its not the easiest thing to do on a pharmacology or molecular biology exam. However, the majority of students ARE passing their exams, if not the first time then the first remediation for sure.

I enjoy having cilivized conversations about anything, however your "holier than thou" routine rubs me the wrong way. If you have questions for me about my school I am more than happy to answer them. No one knows everything, this includes you and I.

John

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[JohnUNLV]

I would really like to hear the entire story as well. There are so many weird stories buzzing around. I have a few pretty important questions that I will try to ask as "un-biasedly" as possible.

1. What is the ACPE status of HICP as of the most recent ACPE meeting.
2. Why are there over 200 students in the FIRST CLASS, but the anticipated class size for the class of '09 (the 3rd class?) only 50 to 100 students (1/4 the size of the starting class??)
3. HICP plans on building an ELEVEN-STORY building for it's campus by next year? (I came from a Big 10 university with over 45,000 students, and we didn't have a single 11-story building on campus.)
4. What is the status of financial aid for the students in the classes or 07 and 08?
5. How many practice/rotation sites exist for 200 students?
6. Are Hawaii students able to get an intern license from the state board (or other state boards) for rotations/work, even without ACPE accreditation?

JD

Well JD, I have answered many of your questions in previous posts, if you want to scroll backwards.

We will learn of how our meeting went with HICP any day now.
There are so many students because they over-enrolled, expecting many students not to make the journey all the way to Hawaii. However, it has not been a problem at all with space or resources. It is a little cramped, but we all fit just fine. (plenty of space). Next years class will most likely be from 100 to 140, somewhere in there. And so forth for the following years.
The Maryl Groups of San Francisco, Honolulu, Kona and HICP are partnering to build this massive building and I have described the entire building in a separate thread entitled "HICP's new building"
Financial aid or student loans will only come with candidate status, so we must achieve candidate status this June or else a lot of us are screwed.
There are ample rotation sites for all of us. During the school year (EPPE), we already have 6 separate skilled nursing facilities on board to accomodate all of us. And every student gets to choose whereever they want to do their 3rd year rotation, most people are going home (90% from CA).
Internship licenses also come only with candidate status. So again, if we do not obtain candidate status this June we will continue to work as technicians.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. But please read the entire thread for answers to your questions first.

John

 

[flyer]

Quote by JD:

3. HICP plans on building an ELEVEN-STORY building for it's campus by next year? (I came from a Big 10 university with over 45,000 students, and we didn't have a single 11-story building on campus.)

I never have been to a Big Ten campus, but don't they have many acres covered with 2 or 3 story buildings. Usually it is more favorable to go horizontal with buildings because it is much cheaper than building vertical. I think that is why your school doesn't have such a tall building.

However, HICP has three acres and land is terribly expensive in Hawaii so HICP really doesn't have another option.

I'm thinking that HICP is probably planning for the future so they might be able to have additional programs like nursing, etc. Thus, using any other available space in such a big building.

 

[TLC_HICP]

did anyone know about the new HICP attendance policy.

check it out:

Office of Student Services and Admission

ATTENDANCE POLICY

All Doctor of Pharmacy programs accredited by the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE) are required to have a minimum number of contact hours. Absences from classes, tardiness to classes, and leaving class early reduce the number of contact hours. Due to the unique structure of the curriculum at the Hawaii College of Pharmacy™, attendance to all classes is mandatory, and tardiness to class and leaving class early is not tolerated.

Perfect or near-perfect attendance improves the student’s chances of being assigned to a preferred clinical practice rotation site, or to being allowed to participate in elective courses or rotations.

Attendance will be recorded and no part-time attendance is permitted. Students will be expected to be on time for all courses. If a student is late to class, ill, or is unable to attend a class in its entirety, the student is expected to contact the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions or the College Office regarding the situation. The College Administration and Faculty will be informed of the student’s disposition as soon as possible. It is the student’s responsibility to contact the Faculty regarding arrangements for any missed lecture information and/or examinations. Once Faculty are contacted by students regarding absences, it is up to the Faculty to decide, based on their policies set forth in the course syllabus, what options are available.

The following are defined as excused absences:
• Student illness
• Illness of a student’s immediate family
• Death of a student’s immediate family member
• Major religious holidays
• Travel for student organization activities with prior approval from the Academic and Student Services Committee

Students who cannot attend class for three consecutive days due to illness must submit a doctor’s note directly to the Assistant Dean of Student Services.

Students are responsible for notifying the Faculty in writing 30 working days prior to the anticipated absence due to a major religious holiday. Students traveling to an approved organizational event must notify the Faculty in writing 60 working days prior to the anticipated absence.

Students are allowed up to 3 days of excused absences per academic year. If a student has 4 to 6 days of excused absences per academic year, they will receive a letter from the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions advising them that they are at risk of academic dismissal from the College. Students with 7 or more days of excused absences per academic year are placed on academic dismissal and are withdrawn from the College for re-enrollment the next year.

Unexcused absences (e.g., those absences that do not meet the “excused absences” criteria above), will not be tolerated. A single unexcused absence will be grounds for academic dismissal.

Tardiness is defined as arriving to class after the class is scheduled to start (i.e., 8:30am and 1:00pm). Being tardy to class will be considered as an absence. The tardy student will need to advise the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions the reason why they were tardy. If it does not meet the criteria for an excused absence, as listed above, it will be considered an unexcused absence. If the student does not advise the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions why they were tardy, it will be considered as an unexcused absence.

Leaving class early is defined as exiting class prior to being excused by the Faculty, with no intent to return to class. Evidence of such intent may include, but not limited to, collecting all personal belongings and taking them out of the classroom. Leaving class early will be considered an absence. The student that leaves early will need to advise the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions the reason why they left class. If it does not meet the criteria for an excused absence, as listed above, it will be considered an unexcused absence. If the student does not advise the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions why they left early, it will be considered as an unexcused absence.

Attendance will be tracked via attendance sheets distributed and collected by Teaching Assistants (TA’s). TA’s will distribute and collect attendance sheets at irregular intervals, at their discretion or at the request of the course coordinator, Faculty or Assistant Dean of Curriculum. The Head TA will be responsible for recording and reporting results of the attendance sheets to the Assistant Dean of Student Services and Admissions and the Assistant Dean of Curriculum. Students found altering attendance sheets, forging another student’s name on the attendance sheets or otherwise interfering with the accurate recording of attendance or the enforcement of this Attendance Policy will be in direct violation of the Code of Conduct and may face disciplinary action.

This policy does not supersede or negate the attendance policy set forth by each course syllabus. Course Coordinators are responsible for enforcing their own attendance policy.

. really a cool way to kick students out heh. LOL. SUCKS.

tlc_hicp (TLC 4 HICP= i have a lot of TLC for HICP).
I am glad that i am not in this school.
so

 

[TLC_HICP]

wow, that building could be anything on paper, but the reality? I guess that building still need to be corrected by the city planner, or in the process getting permit from the city of HNL.
a lot of bs from that IT guy, even the school internet is still having problems. How could HICP build a 11 building ? impossible. Natthan, fat boy, get to work, stop sitting there, and gain some fat, get to work.

TLC_HICP.
I am glad I am not in this school, but informants are providing reallly good source about HICP.

 

[rxforlife2004]

This thread is getting longer and it becomes very heated up. I think this would never end the debate regarding to the future outcome of HICP. Rather than just sitting here and arguing about the future, why don't you guys leave HICP alone and see if it would be successful later? If it will be, that that's good. If not, then blame on whoever have not listened to you.

 

[jdpharmd?]

did anyone know about the new HICP attendance policy.

check it out:

All Doctor of Pharmacy programs accredited by the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE) are required to have a minimum number of contact hours. Absences from classes, tardiness to classes, and leaving class early reduce the number of contact hours.

How does the "required contact hours" thing work out for the 100% online PharmD that Creighton offers?

 

[jdpharmd?]

Well JD, I have answered many of your questions in previous posts, if you want to scroll backwards.

What questions have you answered in previous posts? I've read the entire thread.

 

[Roxicet]

Every class has students who dont pass their exams, but its not as if there is a huge failure rate. I mean come on, name a single exam where everyone passed? Not to mention getting 240 students to pass. Considering you have to get 80% every time, its not the easiest thing to do on a pharmacology or molecular biology exam. However, the majority of students ARE passing their exams, if not the first time then the first remediation for sure.
John

This is from your VP's blog: "heehee im in a hella good mood. i was stressin on this pharmacology exam i had on friday. it was seriously the hardest exam i have taken at the college so far. i never walk out of an exam ******* bricks but ooooh did i on friday...BUT today...i found out i passed!!! =) teehee only 13 people passed in our huge *** ******* class so i feel good about myself..."

I believe at USN, the block system is used as well, and to pass their exams, you have to get 90% or better. I wonder if so many people fail there, too.
-----------
John, how many applications did HICP received last year (or what were you told by the school, anyway)?

 

[Roxicet]

What questions have you answered in previous posts? I've read the entire thread.

There's another thread in the prepharm forum: Students of Hawaii College of Pharmacy

We have a big class for a very simple reason. They had to accept more students then their limit of 140 to ensure they would have a full class, they didnt expect 244 to actually come. However, since we did, it wasn't difficult to accommodate all of us.

 

[ultracet]

I would be gone with just the attendance policy alone
One unexcused absence is grounds for dismissal?!?!

i mean its graduate school why can't they just leave us alone!!

Ok another question.... say you fail a test... what happens?

 

[Jeddevil]

Reading this thread and the student blog that is linked to on page 1 of this thread makes me happy I am at my current school. Sorry John, because you sound like a nice guy who is working hard and wants the best for your school, but everything else I read is negative about HICP. The student blog is just flat out childish and a very poor representation of a student at any school. If that student is one of the best scholars at HICP, as she says she is, then that is just embarassing. All she talks about is partying, getting wasted, how hot she is and people talking bad about each other. Then there is the troll who came on here and blasted everything about the school he/she attends. Now someone posts an attendance policy. What is HICP, a glorified high school? You have to threaten students with expulsion to get them to come to class. Now I am no saint as far as making all my classes, but an attendance policy like that is only laid down when there are serious problems. Good luck John. I hope it all works out for you because you sound like a nice guy caught up in a bad situation that you can't control.

Lucky me, I just have to go to school tomorrow and deal with complainers like Roxicet. You guys can't imagine how hard it is going to school with people that are serious about it and work hard to better themselves and their families. But I will deal with it. (BTW, just messing with you Roxicet)

 

[rxforlife2004]

This is from your VP's blog: "heehee im in a hella good mood. i was stressin on this pharmacology exam i had on friday. it was seriously the hardest exam i have taken at the college so far. i never walk out of an exam ******* bricks but ooooh did i on friday...BUT today...i found out i passed!!! =) teehee only 13 people passed in our huge *** ******* class so i feel good about myself..."

I believe at USN, the block system is used as well, and to pass their exams, you have to get 90% or better. I wonder if so many people fail there, too.
-----------
John, how many applications did HICP received last year (or what were you told by the school, anyway)?

Hi Roxicet:

I am a P-1 at USN and I can answer this question for you. It depends on a specific block's difficulty. SOme blocks are very easy and most likely 100% students in my class pass. But some blocks are very hard and a lot of people fail. So far, the maximum of people fail in a block was 50% of my class in Pharmacology block (It was the hardest block so far in my P-1, we cover pretty much a lot of materials: Adrenergic drugs, Antimuscarinic, 5HT drugs, GABA, B-blockers, Opiods, Sedatives and Hypnotics in just 3 weeks.).

 

[JohnUNLV]

Reading this thread and the student blog that is linked to on page 1 of this thread makes me happy I am at my current school. Sorry John, because you sound like a nice guy who is working hard and wants the best for your school, but everything else I read is negative about HICP. The student blog is just flat out childish and a very poor representation of a student at any school. If that student is one of the best scholars at HICP, as she says she is, then that is just embarassing. All she talks about is partying, getting wasted, how hot she is and people talking bad about each other. Then there is the troll who came on here and blasted everything about the school he/she attends. Now someone posts an attendance policy. What is HICP, a glorified high school? You have to threaten students with expulsion to get them to come to class. Now I am no saint as far as making all my classes, but an attendance policy like that is only laid down when there are serious problems. Good luck John. I hope it all works out for you because you sound like a nice guy caught up in a bad situation that you can't control.

Unfortunately Carolyne's blog was posted, considering it is a private blog and not a school related one, but thats another topic.
The trolls that come on here and post things like that and the attendance policy are just so pathetic. Those are the kids that everyone hates at every school, the whiners and complainers that never get anything done but crying.
Unfortunately sometimes it does seem like I attend a high school, we just have too many personalities. However, I do believe we will be successful eventually. Certain students WILL be kicked out over this attendance policy (which is a ridiculous policy) and others will flunk out eventually, then hopefully our class with run smoother. I think that most schools just dont care if students come to class or not. I'm under the impression that if you dont want to come to class, then dont, but you better pass your tests. However, we cant do that anymore, sadly.
Thanks for your support, I will keep fighting the good fight.
John

 

[JohnUNLV]

I would be gone with just the attendance policy alone
One unexcused absence is grounds for dismissal?!?!

i mean its graduate school why can't they just leave us alone!!

Ok another question.... say you fail a test... what happens?

I agree with you on the attendance policy, its completely ridiculous. We have real slackers and trolls at our school which are ruining it for the majority of us. But hopefully this overly strict policy will help, but its certainly going to hurt me
If you fail a test (79% or below) you have to remediate, which means the following saturday you take a new test over the same material, but this time you need an 85% to pass, and if you happen to fail again you need 90% the next time, then 95% and if you fail that one you have to remediate the entire section over the summer. As far as i know there is only a hand full of students to reach the 90% level ever.
John

 

[JohnUNLV]

Quote by JD:

3. HICP plans on building an ELEVEN-STORY building for it's campus by next year? (I came from a Big 10 university with over 45,000 students, and we didn't have a single 11-story building on campus.)

I never have been to a Big Ten campus, but don't they have many acres covered with 2 or 3 story buildings. Usually it is more favorable to go horizontal with buildings because it is much cheaper than building vertical. I think that is why your school doesn't have such a tall building.

However, HICP has three acres and land is terribly expensive in Hawaii so HICP really doesn't have another option.

I'm thinking that HICP is probably planning for the future so they might be able to have additional programs like nursing, etc. Thus, using any other available space in such a big building.

Yes, in Hawaii, obviously space is very limited and land is VERY expensive. Also, they always build UP and not OUT. Honolulu is a beautiful site, lots of large buildings.
Also, all the extra space will be used for new and different types of programs and also some space will surely be rented out.
John

 

[Glycerin]

Unfortunately Carolyne's blog was posted, considering it is a private blog and not a school related one, but thats another topic.

Considering that her journal is for public viewing, I don't see the problem. She does have the ability to make her journal partially to completely private. Many of us have journals/blogs that aren't always available for public viewing. But you're right - this is another topic.

I do see that you are trying to answer questions about your school as honestly as possible, and your intentions do not seem ill-willed. I would encourage you to reread BMBiology's posts from another perspective. He is a long-time poster on this forum, and his posts have always been informative, whether they're about his own school or not. I highly doubt that he is being "holier than thou." Keep in mind that your mood while reading someone else's comments online can skew your perception of what they are supposed to mean or how they are supposed to come across.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Considering that her journal is for public viewing, I don't see the problem. She does have the ability to make her journal partially to completely private. Many of us have journals/blogs that aren't always available for public viewing. But you're right - this is another topic.

I do see that you are trying to answer questions about your school as honestly as possible, and your intentions do not seem ill-willed. I would encourage you to reread BMBiology's posts from another perspective. He is a long-time poster on this forum, and his posts have always been informative, whether they're about his own school or not. I highly doubt that he is being "holier than thou." Keep in mind that your mood while reading someone else's comments online can skew your perception of what they are supposed to mean or how they are supposed to come across.

I agree with you almost whole heartedly. Except I dont know how else to interpret "you're naive, you only believe what you want, you may finally accept the truth, you're a bulldog, you dont know anything" But at any rate, I dont get that fired up over silly things such as this, I'm much more concerned about my exams coming up next week. Thanks for the support though

Also, you cant just read our VP' blog and assume what everyone is assuming. Now, i KNOW what it looks like, and it doesnt look good, but still, if you dont know her, you cant judge, because she is actually extremely intelligent. Again, I don't agree with all of her choices or ideas, but her personal blog really doesnt reflect on all of us, simply on her. And we voted for student government like the first week of school, no one knew anyone. If we had known our classmates as well as we do now, there is no chance in hell we would have the president we have now. But im very satisfied with our VP, she does a good job, and has plenty of fun doing it
John

 

[Abilene]

Hi Roxicet:

I am a P-1 at USN and I can answer this question for you. It depends on a specific block's difficulty. SOme blocks are very easy and most likely 100% students in my class pass. But some blocks are very hard and a lot of people fail. So far, the maximum of people fail in a block was 50% of my class in Pharmacology block (It was the hardest block so far in my P-1, we cover pretty much a lot of materials: Adrenergic drugs, Antimuscarinic, 5HT drugs, GABA, B-blockers, Opiods, Sedatives and Hypnotics in just 3 weeks.).

Hi Rxforlife ,
so what happens to the people who don't pass the exam in USN? What does the school do to help them pass? I'd like to know because I'm applying to your school...thankx

 

[Caverject]

Also, you cant just read our VP' blog and assume what everyone is assuming.

You're right. We can't read it. It makes no sense!

If we had known our classmates as well as we do now, there is no chance in hell we would have the president we have now.
John

What's wrong with your class president? Is he some sort of powerhungry jerk or you just don't like him? We had the same problem voting in the first week. That has since been corrected with out new class by voting in the 2nd quarter.

 

[rxforlife2004]

Hi Rxforlife ,
so what happens to the people who don't pass the exam in USN? What does the school do to help them pass? I'd like to know because I'm applying to your school...thankx

Hi there:

Here's the deal:

Let say you take the exam 1. If you fail it. You have the second chance to take it again on the Monday of next week. However, this time, you have NO team point (pretty much you have to be on your own to score 90% or above). Most likely, this exam is a little bit tougher than the one you "supposed to pass" last week, and if you didn't study for the previous one; chances are you will fail this one. If you fail this one again, you would have to take the whole class back in summer (this sucks!). We have certain limited # assessments you can fail during school year (maximum =5), if you fail more than 5 then you are asked to withdraw from our school. In summer, if you fail more than 3, you also are asked to be withdrawn from our school.

Hope this helps.

PS: Our school help the students to pass by reviewing the materials before the remediations (2-3 hrs, sometimes 4 hrs, depending the materials). (But i don't think this helps much since it is a LOT of materials, if you know, you know; else, you don't).

 

[TLC_HICP]

John[/QUOTE]: I agree with you on the attendance policy, its completely ridiculous. We have real slackers and trolls at our school which are ruining it for the majority of us. But hopefully this overly strict policy will help, but its certainly going to hurt me
If you fail a test (79% or below) you have to remediate, which means the following saturday you take a new test over the same material, but this time you need an 85% to pass, and if you happen to fail again you need 90% the next time, then 95% and if you fail that one you have to remediate the entire section over the summer. As far as i know there is only a hand full of students to reach the 90% level ever.
John[/QUOTE]

..................................................................................................
After all, HICP remediation policy is a very cool policy. It gives students chances to pass the class. I am not from HICP, but i really wish my school use that policy. I think all of the HICP students that failed his/her exams, he/she will learn his/her stuffs again, again and again. at the end, these students will actually learned it more than any other pharmacy students in the nation. damn sure about that, cuz they failed so many times, but they learned it. Stress, damn sure yes, but sorry that pharmacy stuff will be in their blood.
After all of their weird policies, when come down to remediation policy, i really strongly supportted that idea.
well, let's think about the real stuff, pharmacy environment, will we use all of our basic science knowledge for our pharmacy practice later ? really not. (this is not applied to research students, sorry.).
"without failures, you can not succeed" is this right?, if you don't failed you don't know the felling of it. (sorry, I just failed my patho class. this summer will be a good one for me P2 @western, pomona, CA. this summer i will be very VERY SUPER confidence about pathO. cuz i learned from my mistakes. I will be teaching other comming p2 students about patho, i guess. cuz i failed it once. Don't you all agreed with that HICP Remediation policy. i give 2 up

finally, i have to give some support for John_hicp., but yours school still suck on dealing with other stuffs. Yes, your class president is really a mule. I personally listened to his voice once on the recorded tape. Hey, i heard he once got slapped at the club for bad mouth about some girl relationship. that's so wrong, but he is too much for your class. I felt for you, John_hicp.

adios comparades,

tlc

hey, guys & gals, sorry for my spelling and grammar, my undergrad, i only got "Cs" on my english. Damn, i hate to correct my grammar, i just typed and summited it in without reading it again...oops...ha..ha..ha...

 

[Tuck]

Just a note,

but if HICP does not get candidate status and the students are unable to get intern licenses it will push them back a couple months in getting their license. We are required to put in 1500 hours of internship before applying for licensure. Some of that comes from clerkships, but for the rest you are on your own. I just think that would really suck

 

[JohnUNLV]

What's wrong with your class president? Is he some sort of powerhungry jerk or you just don't like him? We had the same problem voting in the first week. That has since been corrected with out new class by voting in the 2nd quarter.

Well, I dont just want to get on here and bash him, because thats not what I'm all about. However, I will say that he is not the right man for the job and he might not put up enough of a fight for the class as he should.
John

 

[JohnUNLV]

Just a note,

but if HICP does not get candidate status and the students are unable to get intern licenses it will push them back a couple months in getting their license. We are required to put in 1500 hours of internship before applying for licensure. Some of that comes from clerkships, but for the rest you are on your own. I just think that would really suck

It will suck and we'll have to work our asses off in our free time and break time to get our hours. But if there is one thing we all do have, its heart. But we'd rather be optomistic and hope for a great on site visit
John

 

[Caverject]

Well, I dont just want to get on here and bash him, because thats not what I'm all about. However, I will say that he is not the right man for the job and he might not put up enough of a fight for the class as he should.
John

You already have...why stop now? As a class officer myself, trust me when I say there is more that goes on than what the rest of the class knows.

 

[VeryWorried]

According to ACPE, you must have pre-candidate status before you can admit your first class. If that's the case, then HICP must have their pre-candidate status already and is now working on the candidate status. Graduates from a school with candidate status have every every right to sit for the Naplex test. However, some companies will not hire graduates from school that are not fully accreditted. You can find the definitions for these status on the ACPE website. I pray like crazy for HICP to get accreditted so you all won't waste your time and money!!!!!

 

[Trancelucent1]

According to ACPE, you must have pre-candidate status before you can admit your first class. If that's the case, then HICP must have their pre-candidate status already and is now working on the candidate status. Graduates from a school with candidate status have every every right to sit for the Naplex test. However, some companies will not hire graduates from school that are not fully accreditted. You can find the definitions for these status on the ACPE website. I pray like crazy for HICP to get accreditted so you all won't waste your time and money!!!!!

This is normally the case but HICP skipped the pre-candidate status and decided to just try for candidate status. This is what all the fuss was about because it wasn't the conventional method. Pre-candidate status allows to get government loans and this was another reason why there was a big fuss. Since they skipped this step the students had to come up with the money on their own and most private lenders wouldn't give loans for a non-accredited or pre-candidate school. I believe that the ACPE is being extra hard on them for not electing to get pre-candidate status. It really did make the school look like they were money hungry. I really hope that they get accredited as well. It would be such a shame to the students if they did not, but I'm sure it'll all work out in the end.

 

[BESTPHARMACY]

I think ACPE should shut down HICP and refund all of the student's money OR deny HICP of its candidate status and show the world HOW NOT TO OPEN A PHARMACY SCHOOL! GIVE HICP THE AX!!! HAHAHA LOL HAHAHA LOL HAHAHA LOL!!!

 

[JohnUNLV]

This is normally the case but HICP skipped the pre-candidate status and decided to just try for candidate status. This is what all the fuss was about because it wasn't the conventional method. Pre-candidate status allows to get government loans and this was another reason why there was a big fuss. Since they skipped this step the students had to come up with the money on their own and most private lenders wouldn't give loans for a non-accredited or pre-candidate school. I believe that the ACPE is being extra hard on them for not electing to get pre-candidate status. It really did make the school look like they were money hungry. I really hope that they get accredited as well. It would be such a shame to the students if they did not, but I'm sure it'll all work out in the end.

Thank you for the positive comment. I hope they are just being hard on us now and will eventually relent. Also, I am confident that all will be well in the end.
John

 

[lisi]

While this is my first posting, I have been following the HICP threads for quite some time and I think it's time to clear up alot of misconceptions. Some of these misconceptions are held by John (apparently a HICP student) and some of those are by others replying to and asking questions of John. First of all, my credentials--I am a professor at the University of Southern Nevada College of Pharmacy (formerly NVCP) and also one of its founders. I have been through the process of ACPE accreditation twice: here, and at another institution, so I'm very familiar with ACPE and its standards, know what is expected of start-up programs, and know of the efforts that went into the founding of HICP. I've got a list of things that need to be cleared up, but for brevity and clarity's sake, I'd like to take them one at a time.

A while back, one of John's postings stated that HICP was founded by the same company as NVCP, Pacific Educational Services. This is incorrect. NVCP was founded by three individuals who started a non-profit corporation in Nevada called Southern Nevada Educational Services. The reason we used the corporation name was because in Nevada, you can't call yourself a school, college, or university until you receive a license from the state to offer the degree (This is an important point--I'm not sure what agency has that authority in Hawaii, or if a license has been granted to HICP, but it's something that I would check on if I were a student). None of the three individuals who founded NVCP is now, or has ever been part of Pacific Educational Services. Also, Pacific Educational Services is a for-profit corporation (I believe they received incorporation in the state of Nevada, not Hawaii, but am not 100% sure of that). To my knowledge, Pacific Educational Services was founded by at least two individuals: one of which was the former librarian at NVCP and one of which was the former financial officer at NVCP. Neither of these individuals had any previous pharmacy school experience prior to their positions at NVCP or had any connection with pharmacy as a profession. Many people have noted the similarities between HICP's website and items from NVCP. Let me be very clear that NVCP was the originator of these items and components that have been duplicated on HICP's website were used without permission from NVCP.

There's more, but in order to keep things relatively brief, I'll continue in another post with another topic.

 

[lisi]

Continuing on with clearing up misconceptions.....

There seems to be alot of confusion surrounding ACPE accreditation, the different steps, and what the signficance it holds. First of all, any entity can start a pharmacy program and even graduate a class without ACPE accreditation; however, authorization to register a pharmacist (i.e., to give an individual a license to practice pharmacy) lies with each individual state. In most, if not all states, eligibility for licensure is predicated upon graduating from a college of pharmacy that has been accredited by ACPE (unless you're a foreign pharmacy grad, in which case, you must pass an equivalency exam called the FPGEE which is administered by NABP just like the NAPLEX is). Consequently, unless you graduate from a pharmacy program that has been accredited by ACPE, it is unlikely that you will be able to be licensed in any state.

The first step in the accreditation process is (usually) attaining pre-candidate status. Having pre-candidate status is ACPE's authorization to admit students into a new pharmacy program. Pre-Candidate status is granted after the institution planning the program submits fairly detailed documentation regarding its plans. Pre-candidate status cannot be awarded to a program that already has students enrolled, so at this point, HICP cannot be granted pre-candidate status. It must go to the next step, which is candidate status. NVCP (now the University of Southern Nevada College of Pharmacy) did by-pass pre-candidate status and did receive full accreditation, so it's not impossible; however, it does present some challenges both to the institution and to ACPE. I would also point out that the inaugural class for NVCP had 40 students only (not 240) and its second class had 76. Typically, ACPE likes to see new programs start out with smaller class sizes and gradually ramp up. It's also significant to note that NVCP had a founding President/Dean who had over 25 years of experience in teaching in pharmacy programs and also had experience in converting a BSPharm program into a PharmD program as well as starting another PharmD program from scratch. He holds a BSPharm, Pharm.D., and PhD, all from the University of Michigan and was extremely qualified to start a new program.
Another potential challenge to accreditation is HICP's status as a "stand-alone" college of pharmacy--meaning a school or college of pharmacy that is not started as a new program within an existing college or university. This was a challenge with NVCP as well. The challenge is that typically for the first year or two, new programs will actually run in the red financially because of initial outlays to hire administrators and faculty and to provide facilities and infrastructure appropriate to run a program. Thus, these new programs need to rely on revenue streams from their parent organizations until they begin to run in the black. As a stand-alone, there is no pre-existing revenue stream that is "bankable" so to speak. This typically means that ACPE will pay particular attention to the financials and financial projections for a start-up program and be very cautious, especially if you're a stand-alone.

The next step in ACPE's accreditation process is candidate status. Typically, sometime during the first year that a program has students actually enrolled, ACPE will authorize an on-site visit for the purposes of evaluating the institution with respect to its ability to meet the criteria for candidate status (check out ACPE's website for their definition of what candidate status signifies--www.acpe-accredit.org) Candidate status is important, because again, typically, the states will allow graduates of a pharmacy program that has candidate status granted by ACPE to sit for the licensure exam and become licensed pharmacists. Also, because full accreditation status cannot be granted until the institution graduates at least one class of students, students who graduate from a program having candidate status are considered to have graduated from a fully accredited program, once full accreditation has been achieved. Because HICP has students enrolled, it must apply for candidate status at this point.

Finally, provided that the school has gotten candidate status, sometime during the inaugural class' final year of pharmacy school (i.e., prior to their graduation) ACPE would authorize another on-site visit for purposes of granting full accreditation status to the program--of course, this depends upon ACPE's determination of the school's progression according to its (ACPE's) standards. The onus is on the school to provide ACPE with "reasonable assurances" that it will mature according to the published standards and guidelines of ACPE for accreditation. If everything is satisfactory, ACPE would grant full accreditation. Typically, new schools are on kind of a "short leash" in that the first accreditation is usually only good for two years. Established schools (that haven't had any accreditation issues) are typically on a re-accreditation cycle every six years. Oftentimes, schools are asked to submit interim reports as sort of a "checkpoint" for ACPE to make sure everything is going along as planned.

I would encourage those of you who want to be fully informed to check out ACPE's website. You can get a lot of good information there including the current standards and guidelines for accreditation (these are the criteria used by ACPE's Board of Directors in making accreditation decisions), a list of pharmacy programs with their accreditation status (note HICP does not have pre-candidate status), as well as the minutes from the most recent Board of Directors meetings. Some of you have picked up on ACPE's analysis of HICP's application from the Jan '05 meeting minutes. The language used for HICP was significantly different from other programs in that HICP "was advised to withdraw its application".

ACPE takes its role in guaranteeing the quality of pharmacy programs very seriously. They can be very helpful to programs in assuring that they are meeting standards and guidelines. They are not punitive in nature and I personally, hold individuals at ACPE who are involved in accrediting pharmacy programs in very high regard. They have always been very responsive to any questions or concerns I have had and have been very respectful and honest in their communications with me.

 

[lisi]

More on ACPE accreditation and eligibility for federal financial aid.....

Another big misconception seems to be how ACPE accreditation is related to a student's ability to receive federally guaranteed student loans. The short answer is: it isn't. In order for a student to apply for federally guaranteed student loans (also known as Title IV), the institution he/she attends must be recognized by the federal government as being eligible. One of the eligibility requirements is accreditation by an agency recognized by the US Dept of Education as a Title IV eligible agency. Although ACPE is recognized by the US DOE as the only accreditation agency for pharmacy programs, it is not a Title IV eligible agency. So any accreditation status granted by ACPE (precandidate, candidate, or full) will not make the institution, nor the students attending it eligible for federal financial aid (Title IV).

What HICP will need to do in order for its students to be eligible for the federal loans, is to apply for and attain regional accreditation. Regional accreditation is another level of accreditation set up by the US DOE. The US DOE has divided the US into different geographical regions and has assigned an accreditation body to each. This accreditation is similar in concept to ACPE's accreditation, but ACPE only handles programmatic accreditation, whereas regional accreditation is institutionally based (i.e., the entire institution rather than just one program within an institution). The most likely scenario would be that HICP would apply for regional accreditation through the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC). Following regional accreditation, the school would still need to apply to the federal government to be approved to offer Title IV loans. I would refer interested parties to the US Department of Education Website. The website has a listing of all accrediting bodies recognized by the DOE as well as their status (i.e. Title IV-granting or not). If you dig enough, you can also find the requirements for a school to be able to apply for approval for the Title IV loans.

However, to refute one earlier post, an institution doesn't need regional accreditation in addition to ACPE accreditation to make your pharmacy degree "worth anything". ACPE accreditation in essence validates the pharmacy degree and your degree from an institution that ACPE accreditation alone, is viewed as just as good as from any other pharmacy degree from an ACPE-accredited institution.

 

[lisi]

I've got one last post regarding misconceptions that I've seen.....

This last one is in reference to HICP's new attendance policy that was quoted in an earlier post. Again, I would refer you to the ACPE website and its publication of the standards and guidelines. There are no requirements with respect to contact hours for pharmacy programs. For example, you won't find anywhere in the standards where ACPE states that each school is required to have students attend class for "x" number of hours, which is what the new attendance policy (if quoted accurately) seems to be implying. I can tell you that having attended pharmacy school myself and having taught in pharmacy schools, I've never seen an attendance policy worded quite that way. In fact at the USNCOP, our attendance policy is fairly simple, stating that students are expected to attend class and are responsible for materials covered in class regardless of whether they decide to attend or not.

 

[Trancelucent1]

Thank you very much for clearing a lot of things up. I would like to ask you, if you are willing to answer, what you think the future holds for HICP. I ask this because I really am concerned with the students. There is a lot of money that has been shelled out by students and more than anything I hope that the business people behind this school don't end up being the only people banking on the school. It still seems very odd that the people who started this school had no pharmacy school experience!! To me it would seem that they are just out to make money. Thanks again!

 

[Caverject]

However, to refute one earlier post, an institution doesn't need regional accreditation in addition to ACPE accreditation to make your pharmacy degree "worth anything". ACPE accreditation in essence validates the pharmacy degree and your degree from an institution that ACPE accreditation alone, is viewed as just as good as from any other pharmacy degree from an ACPE-accredited institution.

Thank you for clarification. As I mentioned earlier, I realized my mistake from something I have misread.

Thank you for posting such insightful material. It gives us a better prespective to whats going on.

 

[ultracet]

lisi: i would just like to thank you for the time you spent writing those posts....

i definitely think you helped out a lot

 

[skp]

lisi:
Thank you very much! Your insider view is of great value to many of us.
Sincerely,
-skp

 

[rxforlife2004]

Hi Dr. Lisi:

I'm a student in class 2007. I know who you are by now

 

[LVPharm]

Thank you Dr. "Lisi", for shedding an experienced light on the confusing topics of pharmacy school accreditation and federally guaranteed financial aid. Hope to hear more from you on other topics of a less, umm, controversial nature

 

[henderson]

First, thank you very much for taking the time to write such an informative posting.

I thought I share my perspective of things as I am a current student at HICP. HICP, as can be seen on ACPE's website, has been advised to withdraw the application and we have been told that many of the components of the application didn't meet ACPE's standards. The dean and faculties frankly informed us of what they had been told and they assured us that they are going to do everything they can to obtain the candidate status. HICP's dean, Dr. Bhagavan has been devoting all his life to the research in the field of pharmacy and we have recruited a number of qualified faculties who have just come on board. As a student, honestly, I was very disappointed to read the statement on ACPE's website but I am not discouraged. I have full faith in the leaders of our institution and the spirit of our students. And most of all, I believe in our program. At first, the program seemed almost identical to NVCP's program but the faculties have devised a program non like any other school where the integration of all subjects takes place each and everyday. We have families so called "Ohana" within our school to take care of each other, we don't compete against each other but rather help each other to do better. We study as hard as any other pharmacy students. The obstacles that the school is going through is expected of any start up institution. I just have one favor to ask for those students and pharmacists and other professionals who are watching us, please have faith in students who give their ALL for the dreams they are pursuing. We will get there and we will be unlike any other pharmacists in the future. Just watch us.

Eun

HICP Class of 2007

 

[anHICPstudent]

Hello,

I am currently a student at HICP and a new to SDN. I have had the "pleasant", to say the least, opportunity in reading all of the wonderful posts in regards to HICP. I never knew that HICP was such a hot topic. I know that John has been trying to do his best in addressing all of the questions and concerns that have surfaced about our school. He has been our lone soljah taking on the comments and at times constructive critism of the many members of SDN; for that I would like to commend him. But I would also like to add my two cents in at this moment.

I know that there have been questions as to why there are no HICP students on SDN. To that question, I will answer with my own reason behind not partaking in SDN; which, mind you, does NOT reflect the opinion of the entire student body at HICP (something that tends to be done). Simply put, it not only relies on the faculty to determine the success of the school, it also lies in the hands of the students. Eventually it is up to the students to pass the boards and for that I am ensuring my own success through my studies, while assisisting other students along the way. That is perhaps the most benefitial aspect of the learning environment at HICP - students are not here to compete with one another. Instead, we are here to learn and at the same time teach one another while we are at it. And yes, there are student's, as with any school, who can balance the intense load that is required at a program like ours with a social life. I do not see the problem behind that. I do not agree, however, with people making generalizations of an entire body through one perspective - it is just that ONE person's perspective.

In regards to the concerns that member's have been expressing for the students at HICP, I would just like to say that your concerns ARE the exact same concerns that we have ourselves. Of course there is a risk in attending a nonaccreditited school. I can reassure you that the worst case scenerio has played out in the minds of every one of our students at one point or another. Although I do appreciate the concern that we are receiving from other pharmacy students and perhaps even pharmacists, I would just like to point out that we are, if anything, more aware of the risk that we are taking by being here than anyone else. We were aware of it when we decided to attend HICP. We were aware of it when we paid our deposit. We were aware of it when we left our parents, our spouces, and in some cases even our children behind to come to Hawaii. We do not need to be reminded of this risk every waking moment, nonetheless be ridiculed about how funny it would be to see us not being able to take the NAPLEX everytime we log onto SDN. But the fact of the matter is that we are taking that risk and we are here. And that we, as well as the faculty, are doing everything in our powers to get where we need to be. We instill our trust in the faculty to do their part as do they in us to do ours, as no one cannot make it happen alone.

I do know that those few discouraging views are the views of a small group of individuals on SDN. I also know that there are individuals who are concerned for the well being of the students at HICP. And for those individuals who are genuinely concerned, I would be more than happy to help answer any questions you may have to my utmost ablility, as John has and will most likely continue to, in regards to our school.

With regards,
An HICP Student

 

[lisi]

Thank you very much for clearing a lot of things up. I would like to ask you, if you are willing to answer, what you think the future holds for HICP. I ask this because I really am concerned with the students. There is a lot of money that has been shelled out by students and more than anything I hope that the business people behind this school don't end up being the only people banking on the school. It still seems very odd that the people who started this school had no pharmacy school experience!! To me it would seem that they are just out to make money. Thanks again!

I wouldn't choose to speculate on what the future holds for HICP. There are many challenges ahead including some new language adopted in January for the ACPE standards (again, I'd encourage you all to get on the ACPE website and read the minutes from the January meeting as well as the new standards). One thing I didn't touch on before was an area of concern for all pharmacy schools and that is finding and maintaining a sufficient number of clinical sites that are of the quality and have the level of pharmaceutical care necessary to provide good experiential education for students. This is another area that ACPE is focusing on. HICP's particular challenge in this regard is the sheer number of students and how that will impact their ability to find these sites. Six skilled nursing facilities aren't going to cut it. In my opinion, they're going to have to expand outside of HI fairly quickly. Plus, it is my understanding that the plans for the University of Hawaii to move forward with their own pharmacy programs are progressing--this usually means competition for an already short supply of sites.

 

[Tuck]

Lisi,

it's clear that NVCP was successful in gaining candidate status during its first year. However, since HICP has not been able to gain even an on-site visit, what does this mean for the current students. Even if changes are made and the school does gain candidate status in the future, will the students that have been taking classes that are substandard to ACPE requirements be required to repeat these classes after candidate status is granted? It may seem like a harsh requirement, but I guess I don't really see how else to make certain that the students have recieved adequate education under ACPE guidelines. If you could elaborate or speculate on how this may effect the students I think it would be very much appreciated.

 

[lisi]

Lisi,

it's clear that NVCP was successful in gaining candidate status during its first year. However, since HICP has not been able to gain even an on-site visit, what does this mean for the current students. Even if changes are made and the school does gain candidate status in the future, will the students that have been taking classes that are substandard to ACPE requirements be required to repeat these classes after candidate status is granted? It may seem like a harsh requirement, but I guess I don't really see how else to make certain that the students have recieved adequate education under ACPE guidelines. If you could elaborate or speculate on how this may effect the students I think it would be very much appreciated.

Tuck,

It's really hard to say with any degree of certainty what the future holds for the students at HICP; however, it's important to remember the ACPE evaluates all components of a college--its facilities, its finances, its faculty, its planning, its student services, in addition to its curriculum and classes. Major deficiencies in any one of those areas can lead to ACPE's decision not to grant an on-site visit. Their reasons are communicated to the College's administration through a detailed report; however, that communication is solely between ACPE and the College (i.e., this is one time that I won't refer you to ACPE's website). The point I'm trying to make is that ACPE's decision may or may not be related to HICP's curriculum; therefore, if the curriculum is not "substandard", I wouldn't see the rationale in making students retake classes. The bottom line is that HICP will need to achieve candidate status at some time before the first class graduates. Otherwise, the probable outcome is that those graduates will not be eligible to take the licensure exam (NAPLEX). Another consideration would be for those students who may wish to transfer from HICP to another college of pharmacy. The college of pharmacy usually determines into what year of the curriculum a student may transfer into (i.e., do they have to start all over again from the beginning, or can they be admitted into the second or third year, etc.) The college will probably make that determination based on an assessment of the transcript that the student provides and an assessment of how well that college's coursework correlates with its own curriculum.

 

[ultracet]

We had a student transfer from UK after his first year and he had to retake the entire first year (minus calculations)

 

[Caverject]

From the Hawaii website....

The Dean and the administration of the Hawaii College of Pharmacy™ met with the ACPE Board of Directors during its January 2005 meeting. The Dean was recently advised by ACPE that a site visit will not be authorized, and ACPE suggested that the application should be withdrawn. ACPE went on to suggest that when the College decides to resubmit the application, the College should strictly adhere to the ACPE guidelines provided. Currently, the Dean and the Administration of the College are working to revise the Application and anticipate resubmitting it for review at the June 2005 ACPE Board of Directors meeting. Should the Board determine that the application adequately addresses the expectations set forth in the accreditation standards, it may authorize an on-site evaluation during fall of 2005 for purposes of gathering additional information about the College and the program. Should the Board determine that the application is deficient in one or more areas, the application may be returned to the institution for further enhancement. If an on-site evaluation is authorized for fall of 2005, it will occur following the enrollment of the inaugural class of students. Thus, the evaluation team report emanating from the fall 2005 evaluation will be considered at the January 2006 meeting of the ACPE Board of Directors, at which time the Board would consider the awarding of candidate accreditation status (cf. definition of candidate status above). Should the Board feel that candidate status cannot be awarded; the College could respond to the Board's concerns and reapply prior to the graduation of the first class. If candidate status is not granted, even after reapplication, graduates may not be eligible for licensure as pharmacists. If candidate status is granted and the program continues to develop as planned, full accreditation of the Doctor of Pharmacy program would be considered by the Board following the graduation of students from the program.

http://www.hicp.org/accreditation/

 

[jdpharmd?]

"Bump",

What's the status of HICP's students reaction to the news, the status of the "updated" application, attendance policy, etc? Are things any different? Did ACPE release any formal statement with more detail?

 

[nikkai]

Hi

I honestly am praying for all of you at HICP. I came back about two weeks ago from an interview and honestly, it was one of the most enjoyable interviews I have been to. Everyone was personable and the faculty asked extremely intriguing questions in an atmosphere that promoted discussion rather than a concrete answer.

Yes, it does intimidate me that the progress is going as it is, but stand firm, friends, as you have all stated, that it is not a question of "if" but "when." You have a strong faculty, and a passion for healthcare - as long as those two remain, you will all do great.

Hope to see you all next year (depending on when I am contacted since I know the admissions comittee hasn't completed reviewing the February incumbent files). =)

Dom

 

[kwakster928]

IMHO, for students who will be attending HICP this fall, attending HICP at this current moment is still a huge risk given this situation.