Pain fellowship- should I do it?

Started by Laurel123
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I've met medical guys with egos bigger than most surgeons. But mostly, the surgeons have the bigger egos. I think it's part of the system. To get into a surgical residency, you had to have been HS valedictorian, Magna Cum Laude in College, AoA in med school. You spend your whole life with people giving you awards for being smart, you start to believe it. You are smarter than everyone else. Better. More important. The ego grows.

Certainly I could not come close to doing with a knife what many of them could do, but I have no interest in it, let alone the training. But at least I have the humility to know what I can and can't do, along with when I should do those things.

So many surgeons ask the question "Can I cut?" not "Should I cut?" Then when things go sour, blame it on the patient. The bad outcome could not possibly have been from poor patient selection, could it?
 
no way - gen surg is pretty easy to get into, compared to rads, derm, optho, ent, etc.. they are middle of the road people, i think the ego comes from the fact that they actually DO stuff and most other people just talk about stuff - the problem is the doing of the stuff is usually unwarranted and harmful, whereas the talking about stuff is just boring and pointless but at least no one gets hurt
 
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I've been reading the aforementioned posts and can relate to many of the thoughts stated above. I am currently an ortho resident and potentially planning to pursue a pain fellowship upon completion of my residency. Unfortunately as medical students we do not always have a clear view of what a future in a particular specialty entails until we are so submersed in it that there is essentially no turning back. I have realized that as much as I love procedures I also very much appreciate and enjoy my family, friends, and balance. I have struggled throughout my residency to find balance, and although I know residency is not the place for balance I unfortunately do no see that obtainable in my future practice. In addition, I do enjoy procedures but however do not appreciate or gain a great deal of enjoyment from procedure that require 5-6hrs in the OR. Also, the field of ortho has been hit somewhat hard as well from insurance companies and reimbursement. This in addition, to the very happy population of individuals whom are more than compelled to sue their surgeon at the drop of a hat makes the day in and out of being a surgeon not as enjoyable as it may seem. I would appreciate any and all thoughts from the members on the site. This has not been an easy decision to come to considering the long and difficult road to get to where I am today, however the decision has brought a great deal of peace to me and I am excited about the opportunity. Thank you all in advance for your thoughts.
 
WHOOOOO BUDDY, SLOW THE TRAIN DOWN...

Think about what you are saying.

What year resident are you? There are options in ortho that might better suit you like sports or something of the ilk. But if your decision to go into pain because Ortho is getting hit from reimbursement, then you better think again. Ortho will be the only field left standing due to the amazing job their lobbies and and support groups do with watching over them.

If you just HATE ortho, and you are early in the residency, change to anesthesia or PMR. But if you still like ortho and want a hybrid practice, you might be unstoppable doing a pain fellowship.

As a guy who if he could do it again, would have done ortho, i caution you against walking away from the field that is going to weather the storm the best. It is rare to have to do a 5 hour case in private practice if you are fast... don't do joint replacements...

try to look into parts of ortho that might fit your lifestyle better, find a group that has surgery center and somehow stays off staff at the hospital and doesn't cover the ER...

i do pain, and its great, most of the time, but most ortho residents get burned out during residency only to be glad they stuck with it. life of an attending is MUCH more flexible then as a resident, And remember cases take TWICE as long in a university center as a resident then in private practice..

Also, how about academics?

good luck. keep us posted.


I've been reading the aforementioned posts and can relate to many of the thoughts stated above. I am currently an ortho resident and potentially planning to pursue a pain fellowship upon completion of my residency. Unfortunately as medical students we do not always have a clear view of what a future in a particular specialty entails until we are so submersed in it that there is essentially no turning back. I have realized that as much as I love procedures I also very much appreciate and enjoy my family, friends, and balance. I have struggled throughout my residency to find balance, and although I know residency is not the place for balance I unfortunately do no see that obtainable in my future practice. In addition, I do enjoy procedures but however do not appreciate or gain a great deal of enjoyment from procedure that require 5-6hrs in the OR. Also, the field of ortho has been hit somewhat hard as well from insurance companies and reimbursement. This in addition, to the very happy population of individuals whom are more than compelled to sue their surgeon at the drop of a hat makes the day in and out of being a surgeon not as enjoyable as it may seem. I would appreciate any and all thoughts from the members on the site. This has not been an easy decision to come to considering the long and difficult road to get to where I am today, however the decision has brought a great deal of peace to me and I am excited about the opportunity. Thank you all in advance for your thoughts.
 
I've been reading the aforementioned posts and can relate to many of the thoughts stated above. I am currently an ortho resident and potentially planning to pursue a pain fellowship upon completion of my residency. Unfortunately as medical students we do not always have a clear view of what a future in a particular specialty entails until we are so submersed in it that there is essentially no turning back. I have realized that as much as I love procedures I also very much appreciate and enjoy my family, friends, and balance. I have struggled throughout my residency to find balance, and although I know residency is not the place for balance I unfortunately do no see that obtainable in my future practice. In addition, I do enjoy procedures but however do not appreciate or gain a great deal of enjoyment from procedure that require 5-6hrs in the OR. Also, the field of ortho has been hit somewhat hard as well from insurance companies and reimbursement. This in addition, to the very happy population of individuals whom are more than compelled to sue their surgeon at the drop of a hat makes the day in and out of being a surgeon not as enjoyable as it may seem. I would appreciate any and all thoughts from the members on the site. This has not been an easy decision to come to considering the long and difficult road to get to where I am today, however the decision has brought a great deal of peace to me and I am excited about the opportunity. Thank you all in advance for your thoughts.

I say go for it. What do you have to lose? One years time and a years salary. That's it. You don't have to throw away your past Ortho training.

Yes, Pain reimbursement will be cut. Other specialties will, too. If you want to avoid that, leave Medicine completely (a whole different thread). Is there added medicolegal risk prescribing opiates? Yes. So learn how to do it properly.

Do what makes you happy.

Is Pain perfect? No. The patients can be very difficult at times. I say, so what? I'm sure getting called in for an emergent open tib/fib case to the ER at 2 am when you just want to sleep can be difficult, too.

With Pain, you have the option to have a fairly normal lifestyle with very few "emergencies" compared to other specialties (as long as you stay away from IT pumps). You can essentially have your weekends and holidays off with your family.

Will patients lie to you to try and get opiates unnecessarily at times, and yell and call you names occasionally if they don't get them? Sure. I say big deal. They can do that in your ortho clinic. They'll do that to ER docs. They'll do that to family docs, internists, or anyone who takes care of Pain patients.

What you have to gain is that by sucking it up for another year, you add an entirely new specialty to your abilities. If you don't like it, you can go back to ortho. If you like it, you can do 100% pain, or even combine the two.

Do a Pain elective and see if you like it, or shadow a Pain doc for a week or two. Any one year fellowship that allows you to be boarded in a completely different specialty is definitely worth considering.

Personally, I think Ortho has great things about it, but the ER call could get old. Really, really old. Plus, if you can't get jazzed about the OR, you have to ask yourself, what the heck are you doing?

I happened to leave a specialty that left me pretty burned out. Going back to fellowship, and making a big change was tough. So far, the change has done me lots of good. I'm happy. Some of the posters here told me not to do it. I did it anyway. Will I get burned out with Pain in a few years? It could happen. But for now, the change has done me good. Sometime you just need a change.

You're coming from ortho? I say, that's cool. I'm from an "other" specialty, too. Pain is not, and should not, be run by a single specialty. The more the merrier. The toothpaste is out of that tube and can't be put back in.

That's my free opinion..
 
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Do a hand fellowship. Short cases, plenty of money, lots of people with hand problems, short cases. I'm a problem solver. That's just what I do
 
Do a hand fellowship. Short cases, plenty of money, lots of people with hand problems, short cases. I'm a problem solver. That's just what I do

Whatever. Hand = ton of call, less OR time + less money than other ortho specialties, and the second most psych patients among ortho patients (after spine)

If you're going to subspecialize in ortho, the only way to go is to do ortho sports med. This = quick cases, no impatients, tons of money, and least amount of psych issues.
 
imho, if you are close to finishing, then you should first finish the residency. if it only takes a year, that back up is so valuable - i.e. "i did this new fellowship, and it really doesnt suit me, but i can always go back to ortho" as opposed to "rats, now what am i going to do?"

if you are just starting, for most ortho residencies, the internship and first year, of the ortho residencies that i am aware, is almost entirely scut and horrid experiences, but most ortho residents feel so much more relieved and more interested in their job after that first 2 years. if you are an intern, you might consider just trying to bear it.

If you do decide to do pain, you have to do some other residency first. whether that is anesthesiology or PMR or neuro, or ortho. I do not know anyone who has done ortho then pain, but i do know a few int med pain docs. Your skill sets are different from others, so you might have to market yourself more aggressively.

Spend some time thinking of things that you might want to check out during electives. I would definitely recommend you check out sports, or hand, or strongly consider a shoulder fellowship. Do a month of pain. That seems to be pretty popular nowadays, the cases are only an hour long or so, and the reimbursement seems to still be okay for shoulders.
 
This is a doc in my area who is board certified orthopedic surgeon and certified through the American Board of Interventional Pain Management. I know he occasionally does procedures but I think he spends more time in the OR.

http://www.midwestsportsmed.com/Physicians/DrBruceMontellaMD.aspx

another example

http://www.irvingortho.com/milani.htm
Board certified through the American Board or Orthopedic Surgery and American Board of Pain Medicine.

I have meet 2 people during residency who were half way through Ortho residency and decided to switch to PM&R. They were both very happy with the choice they made and both ended up doing accredited pain fellowships and are doing very well for themselves. Golfislife I say go for the fellowship once you complete your residency.
 
there is a long and extensive thread on this forum that discusses the various board certifications.

For anyone thinking of going into pain, then that individual nowadays needs to think about a certification in pain, and that is mostly ABMS (one thread about it is http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-608606.html).

An ortho grad does have the luxury of doing a spine fellowship and then setting up shop as a spine interventionalist.

obviously he will be a spine specialist, not a pain management specialist. im not sure finishing Ortho without the spine fellowship then taking the ABPM pain test would be the best long term solution...
 
Whatever. Hand = ton of call, less OR time + less money than other ortho specialties, and the second most psych patients among ortho patients (after spine)

If you're going to subspecialize in ortho, the only way to go is to do ortho sports med. This = quick cases, no impatients, tons of money, and least amount of psych issues.

i agree. i meant to put that in my ramble. Do sports...
 
there is a lot of call with hand. but, in my understanding, they make more than the sports guys. the sports ortho guys are a dime a dozen, all fighting for the scraps on Longshank's table. i have never seen a hand surgeon not have enough patients. plus, ever see how long a hand eval takes? sit down, look at a finger, ok, done. no exhaustive exams, no straight leg raises on a 100 pound leg. no waiting for the little old lady to try to get up on the exam table.
 
Thanks for the input. Guess it is a little divided. For those that are wondering why:
I do enjoy my job. For now. But the writing is on the wall. Each year, we are getting just a little more in house call obligation. The cases are getting just a little less. And I am getting older. Taking a busy 24 hour OB call is lucrative and cool when I was 30 and without children. Now I have two young kids, I am older and more tired (thanks to the kids) and the call is brutal. It is every 6th night in house call, and while we are paid well for it, it is taking its toll, and I don't feel like it is sustainable into my 40's and 50's. The two other practices in this area have about the same call responsibility.

So I started doing some job searches. And just saw a lot of pain openings. And it revitalized my interest in pain management I always had. And yes, lifestyle is a factor - as is an interest in patient care, cutting edge technology and interventions.

But I feel like most people think I am crazy to consider going back to fellowship.

Again, thank you for the opinions.

Hi! Just curious what you ended up choosing and to see if you are happy with your choice!
 
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Been reading this post and I have a similar concern, but am a CA2.

Currently a 2nd year anesthesia resident about to apply for fellowship, struggling between pain vs anesthesia private practice. I honestly love them both right now but whichever I choose I prefer to do 100% of. My biggest considerations are salary and sustainability. I understand the negative stigma about talking about salary -- if you tell me to refer to previous posts/MGMA I understand but still would like to read your responses. These are the main questions that will help me decide whether or not to do a pain fellowship:

-if I do a pain fellowship, can I still do anesthesia private practice (for example, if I ended up not wanting to do it as a career after fellowship) without negative consequences (except giving up one year of salary)?
-is it true that reimbursement has decreased significantly since 5, 10 years ago in pain?
-is it true that ,in general, the starting salary for anesthesia private practice is higher than pain, but that the ceiling salary for pain private practice in general is higher than anesthesia, and by how much?
-How long would you say it takes to reach the ceiling earnings in pain vs anesthesia, generally speaking?
-how much more sustainable is pain than anesthesia in the long run? I can forecast it for anesthesia, but can you comment on emotional/physical exhaustion/burnout rate in pain? (To put it another way, do you think the emotional exhaustion in pain is more than the physical exhaustion in anesthesia in the long run?)

Thank you for all your responses.
 
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