Pathology's increase in competiveness

[pathstudent]

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In a letter from a PD, he stated that in the view of everyone at his program that this was the best applicant pool that anyone had ever seen.

I think that it will go up even higher next year in terms of numbers and applicants with freaky board scores.

 

[GreatPumpkin]

I think our applicant pool was flat this year compared to last in terms of numbers. But, I do agree that the avg. scores, grades, etc..went up this year. When the match numbers come out later this year we will see. Path had a large jump in US grads applying last year, I doubt it will be as large this year. Time will tell.

Path is still not a competitive specialty overall. But, the nice programs always are.

 

[yaah]

I wonder. Many people I talk to still think pathologists are responsible only for the autopsies (The "I see dead people" career). There are an enlightened few who know about biopsies and frozen sections though. A lot of people going in to medicine go with ideas of helping your fellow man, guiding them through a traumatic illness, following them through good times and bad. Perhaps they just want to cut out the evil tumors. They encounter visions of a "doctor" as someone with a stethoscope, scalpel or prescription pad. We are not exposed to what a pathologist is or even what one does, except on CSI when they analyze a bullet wound. So I don't know where the interest is coming from.

I do know that some schools now are doing a better job of teaching students pathology and getting them interested in it as a career. I think, regrettably, that visions of "ideal duty hours" and a well-paid career dance in the heads of many. They look at those charts that have pathologists near the bottom of the "hours worked per week" chart but closer to the top of the "average yearly salary" chart. Then they decide to look into this, and compare it to dermatology and radiology, find that the qualifications for this are becoming hugely difficult, and look even more closely at pathology. Perhaps they discover that, yes Virginia, there is a potential career here. I think, honestly, that that does have something to do with the increased interest. Many of the new applicants may truly have an interest in a career in pathology, despite not coming to this realization via the traditional means.

Pathologists, to me, are as much scientists as they are doctors. This appeals to me greatly, and personally I would add historian to the job description. I was under the impression that science was becoming less "cool" in today's society, replaced by short-attention-span careers like professional actor/athlete, trial lawyer, reporter, and sales consultant. I see the Mars probe scientists on TV and see people change the channel to watch news about American Idol. But maybe there is an undercurrent of interest in science.

People in path have told me that there have always been a significant number of strong, highly competitive applicants, and that this isn't really changing this year. What is unexpected is the increase number of solid students who typically went into other careers. Bully for the field, I think. I want more colleagues in the future I can relate to - people with a lifelong interest in science also attracted to the humanistic practice of medicine - one foot in the lab and the other in the clinic.

I wouldn't worry too much - if you are a strong candidate and have a high interest in the field, there will always be a place for you. If the pool of strong candidates continues to increase, the number of quality residency programs will also increase in order to keep up.

My $0.02 (Probably more like $0.03!)

p.s. I have a lot of time on my hands this week - the derm people who I am doing my rotation with now are at a national meeting, and I am thinking too much about rank lists.

 

[Stinger86]

It probably doesn't help the situation when you have the path residency director from your school coming to teach a lecture in the second year course and spending half her time screaming "Look guys, I'm a pathologist! I don't take any call, and I leave work before 4 every day, plus I make tons of money! Come be pathologists!"

True story, happened last semester during each of her three lectures. Disgusting. 😡

Makes me wonder if similar things happen around the country.

 

[governaitor]

I think, regrettably, that visions of "ideal duty hours" and a well-paid career dance in the heads of many. They look at those charts that have pathologists near the bottom of the "hours worked per week" chart but closer to the top of the "average yearly salary" chart.

Haven't pathologists always had "easy" hours and made "good" money? Why would students just start caring about that now?

Pathologists, to me, are as much scientists as they are doctors.

Diagnosing surgical specimens is pattern recognition and memorizing which IHC stains are likely to light up for what tumors. Scientists conduct experiments to verify theories or obtain data that will display overall trends. You can do both. But being a working surgical pathologist is nothing like being a real scientist such as an experimental physicist.

People in path have told me that there have always been a significant number of strong, highly competitive applicants, and that this isn't really changing this year.

My people in path say they can't believe the number of great candidates that are applying. Five years ago, even the most elite programs couldn't fill with AMGs.

Bully for the field

BUlly?

True story, happened last semester during each of her three lectures. Disgusting.

Yeah, what an absolute loser she is.

 

[ruby_1]

We saw an increase in the number of applicants to our program last year in addition to the quality of the applicants. It's hard to tell what the numbers will be like this year but the quality of the applicants is still up. We have a few applicants that are trying to transfer from other specialties but I don't think there are more of them than usual. I think a certain number of people go into it knowing that it's a very doable residency, the lifestyle is good, and the money is pretty decent. I would be lying if those elements did not factor into my decision. However, I really decided to go into pathology after my rotation as a fourth year medical student. Although I never really considered it, I was hooked after doing the rotation. Now, come the end of the day, I can say that I really enjoy what I do. Ironically, at least two of my medical school classmates are looking into switching into pathology from other specialties.

At any rate, the competition level is no where near what it is for other specialties and I consider derm and radiology to be at the top of the ladder in terms of competition. The field may be more crowded, but any good quality applicant, especially one from an American medical school, should have no problem matching into a good program.

 

[yaah]

Originally posted by governaitor
Haven't pathologists always had "easy" hours and made "good" money? Why would students just start caring about that now?

I don't know, but students seem to care more now about lifestyle when picking a specialty, it's kind of an interesting phenomenon. The New York Times had an article about it a month or so back. Fewer people going into surgery, in part because of the lifestyle. So now there are more people for whom lifestyle is a major factor than there were before, and they can't all be dermatologists. There has got to be some reason for the increase in interest, and it can't all be CSI. A lot of med schools are actually decreasing the amount of pathology teaching that students receive in the first two years. Some schools don't even require looking through a microscope anymore.

Diagnosing surgical specimens is pattern recognition and memorizing which IHC stains are likely to light up for what tumors. Scientists conduct experiments to verify theories or obtain data that will display overall trends. You can do both. But being a working surgical pathologist is nothing like being a real scientist such as an experimental physicist.

Well, duh, but if you want to be someone who depends on pattern recognition and memorization, be my guest. That's not that exciting. Pattern recognition does have its place, and there are times you need it to get through a big crop of slides. I still think pathologists operate at the interface of science and medicine. You become a better pathologist if you know the REASONS why certain IHC stains help in tumor ID, or why certain patterns facilitate disease recognition.

BUlly?

Teddy Roosevelt!!! Learn your history! He used the term "bully" to accentuate strong feelings, meaning splendid or fantastic, i.e. the Black Hills of South Dakota are "Bully beautiful." (hence, an adjective). It can also substitute as a word used to express high approval of a situation, i.e., "Bully for me" (hence, an interjection).

I am a nerd, I am interested in history and science (I enjoyed organic chemistry, sad to say). Therefore, I occasionally will sprinkle my prose with a bit of flowery or heretofore obscure language. I like opera too! Some would say that makes me a snob, or arrogant. However, everyone is medical school is automatically some kind of nerd. It's fun to not take yourself too seriously all the time, everyone should try it. Make some robot jokes.

Yeah, what an absolute loser she is.

She'll probably be the first pathologist to be replaced by a robot.

 

[governaitor]

You become a better pathologist if you know the REASONS why certain IHC stains help in tumor ID, or why certain patterns facilitate disease recognition.

But knowing the reasons is very different than being a scientist. Hell, I can read Science, Cell and Nature all damn day long, know more science than anyone, but it won't make me a scientist.

Most pathologists said to me that it is almost impossible to be a scientist AND be a diagnostic-micorsocpe using-pathologist, and that you gotta pick early on what you are going to do. If you dedicate yourself to diagnostics, it so difficult to compete for NIH grants and to have any time to do anything. If you go for the NIH funded scientific career, you quickly lose your skills of clinical diagnosis.

 

[wolfe]

I have MD. Ph.D degree and a number of good publications. I always express my interest to be a physican scientist during interview. However, most programs told me it would be extremly difficult to be good as a competent scientist and pathologist at the same time. One way you can do that is to subspecialize in some fields such as neuropath, breast path, or GI path. But no way for general surgical path or dermapath (too busy and NIH funding for derm is very competitive).

 

[pathologypete]

Hey All,

I met a number of people on my interview tour that were applying to rad primary and path second. One guy actually told me "Yea, I have no real interest in doing path, but if I don't match in rad I can still have a job with easy hours"
[virtual shaking of my head]

pete

 

[yaah]

Originally posted by pathologypete
Hey All,

I met a number of people on my interview tour that were applying to rad primary and path second. One guy actually told me "Yea, I have no real interest in doing path, but if I don't match in rad I can still have a job with easy hours"
[virtual shaking of my head]

[virtual extending of the finger to these people]

I bet these folks aren't quite as honest with the people interviewing them. I had heard this from some, and I asked a few interviewers about this on some of my visits. They said they can usually tell. I have no idea how, because some people are really good liars. If they match into my residency program I'm not going to be too happy though. They need a virtual kick in the head. I realize radiology is competitive and tough to get, but how happy are you going to be with a career that is your second choice? Oh well, I guess since I am not in that situation I can't really understand. But I don't want a fellow PGY-1 in my program ditching a few months into the program because he got a hot research project that will help him match into his preferred field the next year.

Funny, I didn't actually meet anyone doing this - although like I have said before most of my interview days I was the only one.

ON the other topic - I know that it is tough to be both a scientist and a practicing clinician, my whole point in bringing it up was to say that part of the reason I enjoy pathology is that, to me (I reiterate, to me) it is much closer to the scientific study of medicine than almost any other field (again, this is in my own personal view). Perhaps this isn't true to others, and it isn't what draws people into the field. It doesn't mean I want to be a Nobel prize winning scientist as well as an expert diagnostician. I want to explore residency a bit more before I completely define my career path.

 

[meanderson]

I don't think it is appropriate to lump derm and rads together in terms of competitiveness. Radiology is very competitive. Derm is on a completely different level of competitiveness. It is THE field concerning competitiveness.

A solid applicant(US allopathic grad, a little above average step 1, good performance on rotations) will match radiology somewhere. The numbers the last 5 years are pretty clear. They might not match in a top university program, but they will match. Keep in mind that there are a lot of radiology spots every year.

Solid applicants typically do not match anywhere in derm. The # of spots just aren't there.

Because many allopathic grads can match radiology, I don't think there is widespread movement to pathology because rads is so competitive. I think this is probably true to a much greater degree in IMG circles, where radiology is not possible for most.

 

[yaah]

It is true, derm is on another level. The Boston Symphony just hired a new flautist, and she beat about 250 other candidates, whom I imagine were all quite well qualified themselves.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/li.../14/the_bso_appoints_a_new_principal_flutist/

(if anyone is interested)

But I think plain old "solid" applicants can match in derm if they have the right circumstances and the right connections. I have no idea what the magic formula is though.

I also wish to temper my criticism of radiology people who are (possibly) entering path as a backup. Still makes me cringe, but perhaps we can all welcome them and educate them on the wonders of pathology, making them regret ever having considered doing anything else.

Always remember:


"Everything absolute belongs in the realm of pathology." - Friedrich Nietzsche


Although I doubt Nietzsche meant to give me fodder for praising my medical field of choice (quote has nothing to do with medicine).

But perhaps the uber-mensch he wrote of was a humble pathologist? Perhaps not something I wish to think about...

 

[Jeeves]

One of the things that I am realizing about pathology residency is that although the lifestyle might be easier (less call) the breadth of info you are responsible to know and master is daunting. Each section of Anatomical and clinical has a large thick book. I hope people who are choosing path because there is less time in the hospital realize this fact.

 

[Stinger86]

Originally posted by Jeeves
...the breadth of info you are responsible to know and master is daunting. Each section of Anatomical and clinical has a large thick book.

This is actually one of the bigger reasons I'm interested in this field. A large part of medicine is disease, and I like the idea of being a complete expert on the subject (one that's also consulted, too). Plus, the prospect of often having the "final diagnosis" encourages my interest even more. Bring on the information 😀

 

[magicman]

Originally posted by yaah
The Boston Symphony just hired a new flautist, and she beat about 250 other candidates, whom I imagine were all quite well qualified themselves.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/li.../14/the_bso_appoints_a_new_principal_flutist/

I also wish to temper my criticism of radiology people who are (possibly) entering path as a backup.

Yaah.. that was a really random link. I clicked excitedly on it thinking it would say the flutist was also a dermatologist.. that would have been amazing.

I considered pathology very strongly before applying to rads. (I did not apply to any backup BTW... I just don't believe in doing that... once I decided on rads I was in all the way- I'll do research if I have to for a year). there are some similarities, in defense of those who are applying to both. I do agree they shouldn't be using a field as their backup though. I'll never understand the whole radiology-anesthesia thing.

The thing I didn't like about path was the grossing... some places you don't do that stuff, but I don't think I'll be at an academic center.

 

[yaah]

Originally posted by magicman

The thing I didn't like about path was the grossing... some places you don't do that stuff, but I don't think I'll be at an academic center.

Just to pick up on this - grossing is not, to my knowledge, an optional activity at any path residency. To be trained in anatomic pathology you need to understand the link between gross and microscopic pathology, as well as understand how specimens are prepared. Gross diagnosis is often vital in and of itself, in particularly for tumor staging. Once you attain enough hit points, gold pieces, and experience equivalents (I actually hate RPGs) to increase your rank to ATTENDING you would do much less grossing but it's still important.

I don't know what I would call a pathology residency program that did not involve grossing (AKA cutting). I guess I'd call it a crappy program! As I love analogies, it would be equivalent to learning to be a surgeon without ever going in the OR.

Of course, you could do CP only and not have to gross, but then you would also see only CP and probably be preparing yourself for an academic life.

You're right, it was a random article link, but it was about competition and numbers.

 

[Nilf]

Originally posted by yaah
Once you attain enough hit points, gold pieces, and experience equivalents (I actually hate RPGs) to increase your rank to ATTENDING you would do much less grossing but it's still important.

hehehe...

On a similar note, to speed up the process a bit, you could acquire:

1. ... ancient Microscope of Alvarond, which allows you to detect cancer cell nests with 10% greater accuracy

2. ... Golden Scalpel of Nimbleness, which cuts specimen 25% faster.

3. ... Microphone of Chaos, which scares away some of the more abrasive surgeons.




heh... I let the inner nerd loose for a bit...

Peace and Love,😀

 

[yaah]

Glad to know I'm not the only geek (or is it nerd?).

My weapon of choice would be JAR OF FORMALYNE (you know it would be spelled that way). Disables enemies like GAS MONSTER and TRAUMA WONK for up to 5 minutes. As PATHOLO-GYST, we will of course be immune to its effects.

Let's play a round......

Where would you like to go? There are rumors of life sustaining RATIONS in the PHYSICIAN LOUNGE.
----->> ENTER PHYSICIAN LOUNGE
You have encountered a party of GAS MONSTERS
----->> TALK WITH MONSTERS
GAS MONSTERS are inebriated and challenge you to a FIGHT!
----->> USE JAR OF FORMALYNE
GAS MONSTERS are disabled temporarily
----->> ATTACK WITH SKULL SAW OF POST-MORTEM
You are victorious!
You acquire
--10,000 gold pieces
--Mystical incense of NO
--5 sharp needles
--5 rolls of white tape
--10 packages of healing salve
--16 beautiful wenches
--10,000 CHOCOLATE BARS
-- 6 Blue cloaks and caps (Armor - renders wearer immune to SECURITY FORCE and subtract 5 hit points)
--Statement of alliance with character SAWBONES
You are feeling fatigued.
----->> EAT CHOCOLATE BAR
Your energy is now repleted!
Would you like to continue into the THEATER OF OPERATIONS or ON-CALL ROOM?
---->> ENTER ON-CALL ROOM
This room is off-limits to you.
10 of 16 beautiful wenches have fled.
----->> RETURN TO LABORATORY
Remaining beautiful wenches have fled.
You are now in the LABORATORY.

 

[Caraway]

hehehe

Remember King's Quest? Or Dragon Warrior? DW was a hard game, I had trouble when I met the Wyvern...

Glad to know I'm not the only geek (or is it nerd?).

My weapon of choice would be JAR OF FORMALYNE (you know it would be spelled that way). Disables enemies like GAS MONSTER and TRAUMA WONK for up to 5 minutes. As PATHOLO-GYST, we will of course be immune to its effects.

Let's play a round......

Where would you like to go? There are rumors of life sustaining RATIONS in the PHYSICIAN LOUNGE.
----->> ENTER PHYSICIAN LOUNGE
You have encountered a party of GAS MONSTERS
----->> TALK WITH MONSTERS
GAS MONSTERS are inebriated and challenge you to a FIGHT!
----->> USE JAR OF FORMALYNE
GAS MONSTERS are disabled temporarily
----->> ATTACK WITH SKULL SAW OF POST-MORTEM
You are victorious!
You acquire
--10,000 gold pieces
--Mystical incense of NO
--5 sharp needles
--5 rolls of white tape
--10 packages of healing salve
--16 beautiful wenches
--10,000 CHOCOLATE BARS
-- 6 Blue cloaks and caps (Armor - renders wearer immune to SECURITY FORCE and subtract 5 hit points)
--Statement of alliance with character SAWBONES
You are feeling fatigued.
----->> EAT CHOCOLATE BAR
Your energy is now repleted!
Would you like to continue into the THEATER OF OPERATIONS or ON-CALL ROOM?
---->> ENTER ON-CALL ROOM
This room is off-limits to you.
10 of 16 beautiful wenches have fled.
----->> RETURN TO LABORATORY
Remaining beautiful wenches have fled.
You are now in the LABORATORY.

 

[horrendoma]

'When you enter laboratory, you encounter the DERMATOPATHOLOGYE ATTENDING'
Learn new disease entity for 50 gold. Yes or No?
You have chosen yes. You now have 'dermatofibrosarcoma protuberans' in your Lore Book.
Do you wish to upgrade your disease entity. Yes or No?
You have chosen Yes. A new Quest begins.
'Travel to the Medical Library and obtain the ancient tomes of DERMATOPATHOLOGYE. There are three, by the ancient sorceror WEEDONE, the archmage BARNHILLE and the necromancer RAPINIE. Bring them to me, young acolyte, and you will be rewarded'.

 

[exPCM]

Good thread.

 

[Psychopathology]

There are a bunch of students applying for path from my school. The majority of them had their applications submitted before completing their first electives. Every time they see me in the hall, they smile and comment on how "easy" we're gonna have it. One person wanted to get out of doing research while keeping the same hours and making better money. One classmate wanted to avoid clinical medicine because he didn't like dealing with guts, poop, and piss (rude awaking come July). Yet another just wants to do research and doesn't want to be bothered with patient care.

I'm starting to think that people are looking for an easy way out and think that pathology is the answer. Some of the people I refer to will likely have numbers and resume padding to boost them to the top of the lists.

I'm kicking myself. When they asked me a year ago why I was interested in pathology, I should not have told them that it was fun. I should have let them assume that I was weird 🙂

 

[yaah]

Wow, epic thread bump. I used to have a lot more time on my hands 😳


Yeah, I really wonder what kind of success the "Lifestyle est primum" individuals are going to have in pathology. I suspect there are a large number who will discover an even greater interest in pathology and be stellar pathologists. Others will meander along, have so-so careers and mild success but never be truly happy - perhaps attempting certain fellowships in order to hopefully get whatever it is they are really looking for. Others will flame out and either go back to clinical medicine or something else. It's too bad that these people in the last category are taking spots away from those who truly want the best spot they can get.

Another fellow and I were discussing this at work the other day - we are not sure if it is a generational gap or what (because we are not that much older). A lot of people feel like hard work is something to be avoided. And people get indignant if you mention this - they start whining about how they should be able to have a life outside the hospital and enjoy life, blah blah blah, and they shouldn't be crucified for this. But they always totally miss the point - no one is crucifying anyone for wanting to enjoy life and be a well rounded individual. The point is that when that becomes your priority during your residency, your training may suffer. You can have both, yes. But you can't continuously marginalize your education either. And you can't really expect your education to figure itself out on its own. But everyone has to deal with this on their own at some point - it's too bad that some people wait until after they are in residency before figuring it out, but what can you do. Med school doesn't really give most people an opportunity to really know what pathology is all about.

 

[SLUsagar]

I don't know, but students seem to care more now about lifestyle when picking a specialty, it's kind of an interesting phenomenon. The New York Times had an article about it a month or so back. Fewer people going into surgery, in part because of the lifestyle. So now there are more people for whom lifestyle is a major factor than there were before, and they can't all be dermatologists. There has got to be some reason for the increase in interest, and it can't all be CSI. A lot of med schools are actually decreasing the amount of pathology teaching that students receive in the first two years. Some schools don't even require looking through a microscope anymore.

i'm interested in this NYT article...any have a post/hyperlink for it?

 

[yaah]

i'm interested in this NYT article...any have a post/hyperlink for it?

Well, that post I said was written over 4 years ago, so I don't know if it exists anymore. 😉

 

[thewebthsp]

I've heard applications are up 33% among US seniors. If that's correct then the field will be ~80% US seniors (assuming similar match statistics for US grads as before) making the field on par with Anesthesia and Emergency Medicine in terms of competitiveness. It's really tough applying this year as an IMG -- the number of spots looks like it's been cut in half for those graduates.

I dunno if the Step 1 scores and/or grades of applicants will be sig. different but I think if this continues to increase the field will start looking more like Radiation Oncology-- which could be looked at as good or bad depending...

I hear there are 18,000 US Seniors (MD) applying total for residency slots in 2009

 

[exPCM]

I would bet that most specialties have more US grads applying this year.
First year enrollment went over 17000 for allopathic schools and over 3900 for osteopathic schools in 2005 and those students are applying for residencies now ( http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2005/051025.htm , http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/page 5.pdf )
Over the next few years the numbers of IMGs getting into US pathology residencies will likely drop precipitously as more and more US grads come into the field.

 

[mcfaddens]

I've heard applications are up 33% among US seniors. If that's correct then the field will be ~80% US seniors (assuming similar match statistics for US grads as before) making the field on par with Anesthesia and Emergency Medicine in terms of competitiveness. It's really tough applying this year as an IMG -- the number of spots looks like it's been cut in half for those graduates.

I dunno if the Step 1 scores and/or grades of applicants will be sig. different but I think if this continues to increase the field will start looking more like Radiation Oncology-- which could be looked at as good or bad depending...

I hear there are 18,000 US Seniors (MD) applying total for residency slots in 2009

I recently took a group of college students (pre meds) on a tour of the lab, i sat down with them first to get an idea of what they thought path was all about. This was part of a larger tour for pre meds thru the "exciting" fields of medicine like ER, Rads, Surgery, Ortho ect, ect... I was really suprised when the overwhelming response was that Pathologists diagnose cancer rather than Autopsy. I actually never heard one mention of CSI type crap the whole time. I guess I underestimated what the up coming generations in medicine thought of path. I hope this is universal and not just a local phenomenon.

 

[2121115]

Yaah, this is the funniest post ever on SDN. I crack up every time I come across it... which also tells me I've been reading these forums for way too long. The concept of getting gold pieces from a gas monster is subtle but priceless humor.

Glad to know I'm not the only geek (or is it nerd?).

My weapon of choice would be JAR OF FORMALYNE (you know it would be spelled that way). Disables enemies like GAS MONSTER and TRAUMA WONK for up to 5 minutes. As PATHOLO-GYST, we will of course be immune to its effects.

Let's play a round......

Where would you like to go? There are rumors of life sustaining RATIONS in the PHYSICIAN LOUNGE.
----->> ENTER PHYSICIAN LOUNGE
You have encountered a party of GAS MONSTERS
----->> TALK WITH MONSTERS
GAS MONSTERS are inebriated and challenge you to a FIGHT!
----->> USE JAR OF FORMALYNE
GAS MONSTERS are disabled temporarily
----->> ATTACK WITH SKULL SAW OF POST-MORTEM
You are victorious!
You acquire
--10,000 gold pieces
--Mystical incense of NO
--5 sharp needles
--5 rolls of white tape
--10 packages of healing salve
--16 beautiful wenches
--10,000 CHOCOLATE BARS
-- 6 Blue cloaks and caps (Armor - renders wearer immune to SECURITY FORCE and subtract 5 hit points)
--Statement of alliance with character SAWBONES
You are feeling fatigued.
----->> EAT CHOCOLATE BAR
Your energy is now repleted!
Would you like to continue into the THEATER OF OPERATIONS or ON-CALL ROOM?
---->> ENTER ON-CALL ROOM
This room is off-limits to you.
10 of 16 beautiful wenches have fled.
----->> RETURN TO LABORATORY
Remaining beautiful wenches have fled.
You are now in the LABORATORY.

 

[Nilf]

hehehe

Remember King's Quest? Or Dragon Warrior? DW was a hard game, I had trouble when I met the Wyvern...

hehehe, I LOLed after reading this thread again... after 4 effing years... omg... Back when I posted I was a level 1 resident, with Charisma = 1/18 and Wisdom = 0/18... Only Strenth and Stamina were at my racially-capped maximum, but sadly they're not as high now... At least I levelled up by now...

 

[djmd]

Yaah, this is the funniest post ever on SDN. I crack up every time I come across it... which also tells me I've been reading these forums for way too long. The concept of getting gold pieces from a gas monster is subtle but priceless humor.

I would agree that it is priceless, but I wouldn't say it is subtle...

 

[rirriri]

once upon a time, being an AMG meant that you were pretty much assured a spot in Pathology.....however, over the last 2 years, i've met plenty of AMGs (mostly DOs) who have not been able to secure Pathology positions. Maybe they weren't willing to be flexible, maybe they were not competitive enough---i dunno...

we still have quite alot of IMGs at our program, however i've seen the trend changing. since i started 2.5 years ago, the rate of AMG interest has really peaked....and this is what i've heard from the other NYC programs as well.

Path is definitely on the way up...it has been for several years---and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.

 

[Path_Anon]

granted it's only November, but jesus the quality of applications we've had so far is FEE-nomeenal. I don't think I'D have gotten in if these folks had applied a few years ago when I did.

 

[2121115]

I suppose all these all-star applicants haven't read the "No jobs" thread that has been getting a lot of attention here recently. 🙂

 

[yaah]

I suppose all these all-star applicants haven't read the "No jobs" thread that has been getting a lot of attention here recently. 🙂

Either that or they've been reading all the posts instead of just the doom and gloom ones.

 

[TypicalTuesday]

I suppose all these all-star applicants haven't read the "No jobs" thread that has been getting a lot of attention here recently. 🙂

Either that or they just really love the field of pathology and can't see themselves in any other field and are willing to go into it regardless of job security (or lack thereof) and I'm sorry for this run-on sentence.

 

[dgruntledmizzou]

Path is definitely on the way up...it has been for several years---and it doesn't seem to be slowing down.

Why is this?

 

[mrjames]

In a letter from a PD, he stated that in the view of everyone at his program that this was the best applicant pool that anyone had ever seen.

I think that it will go up even higher next year in terms of numbers and applicants with freaky board scores.

Why still so many want get into pathology? The job market is bad. do they know?

 

[JPmamd09]

granted it's only November, but jesus the quality of applications we've had so far is FEE-nomeenal. I don't think I'D have gotten in if these folks had applied a few years ago when I did.

Sorry to sidetrack - would anyone mind quantifying and/or further expanding on the fee-nomeenal-ity of this year's applicants? Are people just all around rockstars? Is one essentially f'ed if s/he isn't AOA or mad-crazy boards score?

Much appreciated.

 

[yaah]

Sorry to sidetrack - would anyone mind quantifying and/or further expanding on the fee-nomeenal-ity of this year's applicants? Are people just all around rockstars? Is one essentially f'ed if s/he isn't AOA or mad-crazy boards score?

Much appreciated.

There are lots of quality candidates. To me, fairly similar to last year. The thing is though, these good applicants apply to the same programs and interview at the same programs, but they can all only attend one. Things have a way of evening themselves out, although every year there is some program that seems to be the darling for the candidates that year.

 

[pathstudent]

Sorry to sidetrack - would anyone mind quantifying and/or further expanding on the fee-nomeenal-ity of this year's applicants? Are people just all around rockstars? Is one essentially f'ed if s/he isn't AOA or mad-crazy boards score?

Much appreciated.

NO NO and No

Pathology is much more competitive than it was ten years ago, but it seems to have mostly leveled off in terms of number of applicants. 10 years ago only 130 or so USMGs went into it. THat number seems to have increased around 350 or so but there are still 500 spots a year. Less than 70% of the spots fill by USMGs and 10-15% are filled at the end of the match. This is nothing like categorical general surgery where around 1000 spots fill 100% via the match, or derm, ortho, optho and ENT where USMGs fill virtually every spot. I remember rotating at run down county hospitals as a medical student where the peds, path and int med residents were almost 100% FMG and the derm residents and rads residents would still all be USMGs.

Ten years ago, you honestly could have gone to any program in the country that you wanted to, and that may not be the case now, but most applicants will still get their first choice or second choice no matter what their USMLE scores or AOA status is.

 

[ApoNeuRosIs]

See, this is my predicament. I've been chasing my dream of being a Pathologist from Pre-Med. I attended a Caribbean school as it was close to home. My problem now, is that I can't even get interviewed because I don't have 90's on my USMLE's. I've been working as a Path PA at a busy hospital for the past year, which unfortunately does not have a residency program. I attend CAP meetings and read their publications. I've even presented posters and had published papers. I just don't understand what else I need to do apart from waving a magic wand to have a perfect 90 profile on Steps 1 and 2. My Step 3 score isn't in yet, because I'm so afraid to not get a 90 on it..I'm taking forever to study to ensure I'm well prepared. I honestly love Pathology, and I'm quite good in my performance based on all the feedback I've received. I've only got one interview for this year. I do not have a 'backup' because I am commited to Path. I've met students who've interviewed with 90's on their exams, who are only 'into' Pathology because of the lifestyle. This is so heartbreaking. I would like to know then, apart from going to individual programs and begging for a spot, is there anything else that I can do??

Thanks,

ApoNeuRosIs.🙁

 

[Psychopathology]

I wish I knew what to tell you. It seems like you have more insight into the field than most other applicants and that you are certainly motivated and enthusiastic. As a fellow applicant, I have a ton of respect for everything that you've accomplished and sincerely hope that you are offered interviews!

I would think that medical education + passing scores + publications + work in field would shine favorably. Are you going to resume working as a PA if by chance you are unable to match? I would think that given your education, your skills as a PA would be desired at a hospital that has a residency program. If they knew that you were interested in becoming a resident, then you would be a strong internal candidate. Many programs favor their own students and student fellows. You probably know more already than most rotating students.

Hopefully though, this is your year. Good luck.

 

[106174]

Pathology is much more competitive than it was ten years ago, but it seems to have mostly leveled off in terms of number of applicants.

Ten years ago, you honestly could have gone to any program in the country that you wanted to, and that may not be the case now, but most applicants will still get their first choice or second choice no matter what their USMLE scores or AOA status is.

I agree --- Pathology is NOT competitive at all. Given that so many programs (even big-name university-based ones) still offer pre-matches is a testament to this fact.

 

[Path or bust]

I agree --- Pathology is NOT competitive at all. Given that so many programs (even big-name university-based ones) still offer pre-matches is a testament to this fact.

I don't know what you're agreeing to...that's not what pathstudent is saying.

 

[106174]

I don't know what you're agreeing to...that's not what pathstudent is saying.

I was agreeing to his statement that although there might have been a small bump in pathology's competitiveness, it still remains to be a non-competitive specialty overall. To support his argument, he said that a pathology applicant can get his first or second choice no matter what his scores or AOA status may be. I supported my support of his contention by citing another fact, i.e. that the large number of prematches being offered in pathology (including by big name, university-based programs) indicates that the field is not competitive. Otherwise, programs would not feel insecure at all about filling all their spots through the match. In addition, pathology consistently has one of the lowest fill rates in the match (I think second only to psychiatry or PM&R --- not sure). Last year, I think the fill rate was a dismal 90%.

 

[mcfaddens]

I was agreeing to his statement that although there might have been a small bump in pathology's competitiveness, it still remains to be a non-competitive specialty overall. To support his argument, he said that a pathology applicant can get his first or second choice no matter what his scores or AOA status may be. I supported my support of his contention by citing another fact, i.e. that the large number of prematches being offered in pathology (including by big name, university-based programs) indicates that the field is not competitive. Otherwise, programs would not feel insecure at all about filling all their spots through the match. In addition, pathology consistently has one of the lowest fill rates in the match (I think second only to psychiatry or PM&R --- not sure). Last year, I think the fill rate was a dismal 90%.

I'm gonna call your bluff, maybe where you are the applicants are not that great but I've personally seen a tremendous improvement in applicants here in the past 4 years. (you can have great exam scores and AOA and be a total douche or ***** with no idea....this happens alot)Yes some of them are not that great but there are alot of applicants that could easily do ortho or something pretty good that apply to the program looking for a spot here. I don't know why per say but a generalized statement that the applicants and the fill pool for path is "easy" Some (alot) of programs pick off the match if possible to acquire people who are not psychos and might in lets say 2 out of 4 positions are not filled by people who are not a risk generated by the "match". (Honestly if I were running a business I would operate in the same way). Yes the job market sucks, and yes most training programs won't fully prepare you for the real world (that's up to you in the end). In summary basing decisions on poorly based statistical models and bs % numbers is just outright dumb, everyone applying has a general feeling that path (at least in the med school level applicants mindset) is a decently paying job with decent work hours (like misconceptions of rads) and a semi painless residency. I can go on forever...but I think what is really gonna get an applicant in the door for residency at least is the following: excellent communication skills and interpersonal communication,medical knowledge,comon sense, excellent work ethic, personaibility, and expereience (in some form or another you as an applicant should be able to talk shop in a limited form). With this in hand you can potentially build a decent future in this field. There are tons of programs out there looking for a resident work force to replace or prevent expensive PA type skills… beware. But overall in the current climate path is competitive. lord knows why merry Xmas

 

[Arctic Char]

I’m gonna call your bluff, maybe where you are the applicants are not that great but I’ve personally seen a tremendous improvement in applicants here in the past 4 years. (you can have great exam scores and AOA and be a total douche or ***** with no idea....this happens alot)Yes some of them are not that great but there are alot of applicants that could easily do ortho or something pretty good that apply to the program looking for a spot here. I don't know why per say but a generalized statement that the applicants and the fill pool for path is "easy" Some (alot) of programs pick off the match if possible to acquire people who are not psychos and might in lets say 2 out of 4 positions are not filled by people who are not a risk generated by the "match". (Honestly if I were running a business I would operate in the same way). Yes the job market sucks, and yes most training programs won’t fully prepare you for the real world (that’s up to you in the end). In summary basing decisions on poorly based statistical models and bs % numbers is just outright dumb, everyone applying has a general feeling that path (at least in the med school level applicants mindset) is a decently paying job with decent work hours (like misconceptions of rads) and a semi painless residency. I can go on forever...but I think what is really gonna get an applicant in the door for residency at least is the following: excellent communication skills and interpersonal communication,medical knowledge,comon sense, excellent work ethic, personaibility, and expereience (in some form or another you as an applicant should be able to talk shop in a limited form). With this in hand you can potentially build a decent future in this field. There are tons of programs out there looking for a resident work force to replace or prevent expensive PA type skills… beware. But overall in the current climate path is competitive. lord knows why merry Xmas

speaking of communication skills . . . maybe 58% of what you wrote was interpretable.

 

[106174]

I don't know why per say but a generalized statement that the applicants and the fill pool for path is "easy" Some (alot) of programs pick off the match if possible to acquire people who are not psychos and might in lets say 2 out of 4 positions are not filled by people who are not a risk generated by the "match". (Honestly if I were running a business I would operate in the same way).

WTF??? If you communicate this way, I bet you will not find a job.