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serenade said:
Something's are assume about America. Like centralized AC.

Largely it's difficult to say America is awesome because America is like 3 different countries these days. You have the two coasts which have what I call Europe-lite. The Middle which is heavily impoverished, and has distinct cultural and geographic issues that are almost incomparable to the coasts.
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Coasts are great if you live in Maine, Vermont, or some parts of Oregon.

Terrible if you live in New York or LA.
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serenade said:
They're educated because their culture is better. They have a culture of expectations. America has a culture of bad beer, burning books, and disinterest in anything remotely intellectual
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Yes. Handing someone their life, making them work 35 hours a week is giving them expectations.

In America, unless you rely on subsidies, you have to work for things.

Funny how any time anything bad ever happens in Europe, who is the first country they beg for support? America. Who does America ask, when something bad happens? Oh, that's right. Moving on.
 
PL198 said:
Yes. Handing someone their life, making them work 35 hours a week is giving them expectations.

In America, unless you rely on subsidies, you have to work for things.

Funny how any time anything bad ever happens in Europe, who is the first country they beg for support? America. Who does America ask, when something bad happens? Oh, that's right. Moving on.
Click to expand...

Again, no one is getting anything that they did not themselves build. That is society.
 
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serenade said:
That's the thing, if not for Brain drain I doubt America would have gotten half the things it had.

Without escaping Jews in the 30s, captured Germans in the 40s and 50s, and Russians in the 90s America wouldn't be how it is now.

We don't have a culture of expectation. We have simply been blessed with many foreign minds when the rest of the world lay in ruin.
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Blessed? You are seriously more naive than the dude in the thread about masturbation talking about like " omg porn is real? I didn't see it mentioned in the bible."

You really are going to say blessed? Do you understand how many times America has bailed THE ENTIRE WORLD out now? It's hilarious you continue to attack America and then whenever anything bad happens, you beg for assistance. Tell me the next time an aggressive leader tries to take over your continent, can do so in mere months, and then how stuff goes once the US gets involved. Oh yeah, but we left it in ruins. Idiot. You wouldn't have a nation if we hadn't intervened.

Open a history book for god sakes and put turn off the BBC they brainwash you into watching 10 hours/day. I'd LOVE to have seen Europe's fate without American intervention.
 
PL198 said:
Blessed? You are seriously more naive than the dude in the thread about masturbation talking about like " omg porn is real? I didn't see it mentioned in the bible."

You really are going to say blessed? Do you understand how many times America has bailed THE ENTIRE WORLD out now? It's hilarious you continue to attack America and then whenever anything bad happens, you beg for assistance. Tell me the next time an aggressive leader tries to take over your continent, can do so in mere months, and then how stuff goes once the US gets involved. Oh yeah, but we left it in ruins. Idiot. You wouldn't have a nation if we hadn't intervened.

Open a history book for god sakes and put turn off the BBC they brainwash you into watching 10 hours/day. I'd LOVE to have seen Europe's fate without American intervention.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what this entire argument is about. America saved Europe in ww2. But America became great because of ww2.
 
PL198 said:
Blessed? You are seriously more naive than the dude in the thread about masturbation talking about like " omg porn is real? I didn't see it mentioned in the bible."

You really are going to say blessed? Do you understand how many times America has bailed THE ENTIRE WORLD out now? It's hilarious you continue to attack America and then whenever anything bad happens, you beg for assistance. Tell me the next time an aggressive leader tries to take over your continent, can do so in mere months, and then how stuff goes once the US gets involved. Oh yeah, but we left it in ruins. Idiot. You wouldn't have a nation if we hadn't intervened.

Open a history book for god sakes and put turn off the BBC they brainwash you into watching 10 hours/day. I'd LOVE to have seen Europe's fate without American intervention.
Click to expand...

I think he's American, actually? It's popular to be too cool for America right now.

Interesting point. During my months in France I had an argument with a University student over WWII and France, according to her, the Brits and Americans helped equally, but neither helped as much as they claim. It was very confusing.
 
serenade said:
I don't understand what this entire argument is about. America saved Europe in ww2. But America became great because of ww2.
Click to expand...

It's a chicken and egg question. Did brilliant minds come over because America was great, or did the brilliant minds who came over make it great.

I think the answer is, Yes.
 
PL198 said:
Blessed? You are seriously more naive than the dude in the thread about masturbation talking about like " omg porn is real? I didn't see it mentioned in the bible."

You really are going to say blessed? Do you understand how many times America has bailed THE ENTIRE WORLD out now? It's hilarious you continue to attack America and then whenever anything bad happens, you beg for assistance. Tell me the next time an aggressive leader tries to take over your continent, can do so in mere months, and then how stuff goes once the US gets involved. Oh yeah, but we left it in ruins. Idiot. You wouldn't have a nation if we hadn't intervened.

Open a history book for god sakes and put turn off the BBC they brainwash you into watching 10 hours/day. I'd LOVE to have seen Europe's fate without American intervention.
Click to expand...
Just enjoy watching what happens to Europe now. You're getting to watch it burn either way.

Once China gets in full swing and asserts itself as the global superpower and begins setting the rules, I wonder how the global opinion of America will change.
 
Also I haven't watched bbc since British humor became British food.
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
I think he's American, actually? It's popular to be too cool for America right now.

Interesting point. During my months in France I had an argument with a University student over WWII and France, according to her, the Brits and Americans helped equally, but neither helped as much as they claim. It was very confusing.
Click to expand...

I've literally never heard something more hilarious in my life.
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
It's a chicken and egg question. Did brilliant minds come over because America was great, or did the brilliant minds who came over make it great.

I think the answer is, Yes.
Click to expand...

The brilliant minds continue to come, because America is still the land of greatest opportunity. While we are being more socialistic, we are still one of the best places for people to truly achieve, to be recognized as such.
 
Mad Jack said:
Once China gets in full swing and asserts itself as the global superpower and begins setting the rules, I wonder how the global opinion of America will change.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about China, can that country ever be unified? Are they creative enough to take over the world?
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
History is written by the victor, and all that.
Click to expand...

Germany, Italy and Japan had won the war before we entered. It was over. There were weeks left to hold out. We caused a complete 180. By your argument, we might as well throw out all history ever created.
 
Mad Jack said:
Just enjoy watching what happens to Europe now. You're getting to watch it burn either way.

Once China gets in full swing and asserts itself as the global superpower and begins setting the rules, I wonder how the global opinion of America will change.
Click to expand...

It's just going to get worse. We will still be fat and lazy. It's the price to pay for growing complacent. I'm not really worried about an actual war though. I feel like the stakes have gotten too high to where it's actually prevented future world war.
 
PL198 said:
It's just going to get worse. We will still be fat and lazy. It's the price to pay for growing complacent. I'm not really worried about an actual war though. I feel like the stakes have gotten too high to where it's actually prevented future world war.
Click to expand...

Big-screen TVs have effectively preempted war or revolution.
 
PL198 said:
Germany, Italy and Japan had won the war before we entered. It was over. There were weeks left to hold out. We caused a complete 180. By your argument, we might as well throw out all history ever created.
Click to expand...

Easy tiger, I was giving you her reason for why my account of history and her's didn't agree.
 
I actually predict another America civil war long before a world war
 
Mad Jack said:
We have more disposable income than any other country in the world. We have the best higher education system in the world. If you have the money to pay for it, we have the best medical system in the world. We have the most innovative, best funded, and largest research departments in the world. All of these things are pretty widely accepted. I fail to see how we look like Eastern Europe, and I've freakin' been to half the countries in Eastern Europe.
Click to expand...

Don't you think that those things have a price?

The discrepancies in the American education system are enormous; the AVERAGE level of education is pitiful (particularly when one considers the %GDP spent on education) and extremely problematic (so many needs, namely when it comes to special education, are not met), and instead of trying to find ways to fix that and having a population that is educated, independant and able to think critically, you just pour more money on research so that the people at the very top can get even more of an advantage. What do you think explains the ''anti-intellectualism'' apparently so rampant in the country?

Same thing for health care; you are seriously ******* deluded if you think America has the ''best medical system in the world''.
The AVERAGE health care provided is worst than in most countries -even those with a similar population-, while being insanely more expensive AND less available.
Yes, the USA is the ''best place'' to get care if you have a rare disease or need specific, narrow expertise... as long as you're rich.

There is only a finite amount of money, and expertise in America is achieved at the cost of equality. The American dream is a farce; some developping countries have better social mobility than the USA. It's a system made by the wealthy, for the wealthy. If that's your definition of success or whatever... good for you I guess.
 
PL198 said:
Germany, Italy and Japan had won the war before we entered. It was over. There were weeks left to hold out. We caused a complete 180. By your argument, we might as well throw out all history ever created.
Click to expand...

what? That's not what happened. Russia won the war. In 1944, when we landed in Normandy, we had about 150 miles to Berlin. We faced less than 5% of the Luftwaffe and less than 15% of the Wehrmacht. In contrast, Russia had like 500 miles to go to Berlin, faced the vast majority of the Nazi war machine and still steamrolled their way to Berlin before we could. Eisenhower gave up the push to Berlin because they couldn't make it before the Russians.

The Eastern Front had a motto to go with it "The Iron Cross or the Wooden Cross". In contrast, the units fighting on the Western Front were those rotated back for rest/refit.
 
PL198 said:
Germany, Italy and Japan had won the war before we entered. It was over. There were weeks left to hold out. We caused a complete 180. By your argument, we might as well throw out all history ever created.
Click to expand...

You and I both know USSR won WWII, at least in Europe.
 
Doudline said:
Don't you think that those things have a price?

The discrepancies in the American education system are enormous; the AVERAGE level of education is pitiful (particularly when one considers the %GDP spent on education) and extremely problematic (so many needs, namely when it comes to special education, are not met), and instead of trying to find ways to fix that and having a population that is educated, independant and able to think critically, you just pour more money on research so that the people at the very top can get even more of an advantage. What do you think explains the ''anti-intellectualism'' apparently so rampant in the country?

Same thing for health care; you are seriously ******* deluded if you think America has the ''best medical system in the world''.
The AVERAGE health care provided is worst than in most countries -even those with a similar population-, while being insanely more expensive AND less available.
Yes, the USA is the ''best place'' to get care if you have a rare disease or need specific, narrow expertise... as long as you're rich.

There is only a finite amount of money, and expertise in America is achieved at the cost of equality. The American dream is a farce; some developping countries have better social mobility than the USA. It's a system made by the wealthy, for the wealthy. If that's your definition of success or whatever... good for you I guess.
Click to expand...

because intellectualism is stupid and "intellectuals" are completely cut off from the real word with regards to understanding it. Hence why any "intellectual" run entity is terrible and as inefficient as possible. See colleges, medical schools. there are ted talks on this.

Access doesn't define medical care. Americans have poor health ratings because of their laziness and inability to take their health into their own hands. If someone saw a doctor every day, yet couldn't stop eating Twinkies 24/7, obviously that nation would have terrible outcomes, yet they can't do much more for the person. That's america.
 
Beargryllz said:
You and I both know USSR won WWII, at least in Europe.
Click to expand...

obviously the fact that it was multi-pronged benefited both fronts. The USSR and US were both responsible I guess. I'd change my statement to that, and I contest the historians that say the USSR could have won single-handedly.
 
I don't understand people critical of the American system that try to say a more european like system would be better. It definitely wouldn't with our population base. People have **** tons of opportunity over here, they just don't take it. All giving them more opportunity does is make them waste even more. Which just teaches them to be lazier. The culture in America is the problem, not the opportunities.
 
serenade said:
Something's are assume about America. Like centralized AC.

Largely it's difficult to say America is awesome because America is like 3 different countries these days. You have the two coasts which have what I call Europe-lite. The Middle which is heavily impoverished, and has distinct cultural and geographic issues that are almost incomparable to the coasts.
Click to expand...

What? How is the middle of the country 'heavily impoverished'?
 
Actually Japan had largely lost the war before petal harbor. Even if they obtained the oil for their machines they couldn't have effectively ruled China and as such would have been bankrupt.

Italy was essentially broken when their bs Libyan invasion was defeated and the Germans needed to send Rommel.

Germany lost the war when they choose to invade the USSR instead of launching the invasion of British Iraq and Iran.

The US essentially insure that the Soviets and the British survived the war without even more great loses. Kursk would likely have been another Stalingrad without the Americans. And London likely would have been relocated to other locations.

So... Yah... Don't really lecture me on history...

And yes, the European model would work here. The only deterrent is that people need to wise up and accept facts over prejudice.
 
Mad Jack said:
Just enjoy watching what happens to Europe now. You're getting to watch it burn either way.

Once China gets in full swing and asserts itself as the global superpower and begins setting the rules, I wonder how the global opinion of America will change.
Click to expand...

Just going to say that the chances of China not fragmenting within the next 30 years are slim.
 
I don't really think our system innovates on healthcare. The FDA insures that doesn't happen lol.

But seriously, put some more money out for grad students and they'll genetically engineer elves within a week...
 
serenade said:
I don't really think our system innovates on healthcare. The FDA insures that doesn't happen lol.

But seriously, put some more money out for grad students and they'll genetically engineer elves within a week...
Click to expand...

For someone who feels so strongly about education, you make a lot of grammatical and usage errors. Are you on a phone or something?
Normally I let this stuff slide, but if you're going to insult the general population then your writing should be impeccable.

If you're having trouble finding the errors, I'll be happy to help.
 
serenade said:
So... Yah... Don't really lecture me on history...
Click to expand...

I like when people get real serious about themselves on the internet.

Guys, don't lecture Serenade on history, OK? He'll kick your f*cking *ss and put you back in your wronger version of history place.
 
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Doudline said:
Don't you think that those things have a price?

The discrepancies in the American education system are enormous; the AVERAGE level of education is pitiful (particularly when one considers the %GDP spent on education) and extremely problematic (so many needs, namely when it comes to special education, are not met), and instead of trying to find ways to fix that and having a population that is educated, independant and able to think critically, you just pour more money on research so that the people at the very top can get even more of an advantage. What do you think explains the ''anti-intellectualism'' apparently so rampant in the country?

Same thing for health care; you are seriously ******* deluded if you think America has the ''best medical system in the world''.
The AVERAGE health care provided is worst than in most countries -even those with a similar population-, while being insanely more expensive AND less available.
Yes, the USA is the ''best place'' to get care if you have a rare disease or need specific, narrow expertise... as long as you're rich.

There is only a finite amount of money, and expertise in America is achieved at the cost of equality. The American dream is a farce; some developping countries have better social mobility than the USA. It's a system made by the wealthy, for the wealthy. If that's your definition of success or whatever... good for you I guess.
Click to expand...
Overall I'd rather be here than anywhere else. Social mobility may be greater in some countries, but where else in the world could a person achieve substantial wealth when coming from humble beginnings? It is easier to move from the bottom quartile and become a millionaire in the US than anywhere else, dare I say. And social mobility could easily be improved in the US without switching to a European system- we clearly have a good amount of fluidity built into our system, it is just under-utilized.

http://marginalrevolution.com/margi...bility-in-and-out-of-the-top-one-percent.html

Click through to the tax policy analysis if you want the depthy analysis.

So far as health care, I did not say on average. I am not speaking to the quality of health care on average- I was saying at its best, it is hands down the best. I do not support any system of rationing care aside from one that limits payments for end of life/futile care, and thus would never support a single payer system.

We could easily improve our overall fiscal situation with a few policy tweaks and changes that would substantially reduce our overall debt burden. These changes are the only reasonable way forward as we approach a 2:1 worker to beneficiary ratio in the next 30-40 years- socialist policies simply can't function at that ratio without unbearable tax burdens and stagnant growth. If you want a future of stagnation and decline akin to Spain, go right ahead and move there.

Again, I'm not saying our system is the best overall, but for anyone with intelligence or talent, it is the best place in the world to cash in on your abilities. If you want to be middle class and are average or below average in talent and intelligence overall, it is certainly not the best country to live in. We could take steps to make it a bit better for the lower and middle class, but we certainly shouldn't scrap the benefits it has for those willing to out in some hard work and effort with the brains to match.
 
dadaddadaBATMAN said:
For someone who feels so strongly about education, you make a lot of grammatical and usage errors. Are you on a phone or something?
Normally I let this stuff slide, but if you're going to insult the general population then your writing should be impeccable.

If you're having trouble finding the errors, I'll be happy to help.
Click to expand...
My favorite thing about his argument is "middle and lower class Americans are terrible. America has a terrible system because it screws middle and lower class Americans." Classic liberal "I don't like you or respect your beliefs or lifestyle but I know what's best for you" mentality.

I have agreed and disagreed with basically everyone in this thread at various times over the past few months, so don't take any of this personally. Also, I am not a righty or a lefty- both sides generally hate me equally because I am too dead center for their taste.
 
Mad Jack said:
My favorite thing about his argument is "middle and lower class Americans are terrible. America has a terrible system because it screws middle and lower class Americans." Classic liberal "I don't like you or respect your beliefs or lifestyle but I know what's best for you" mentality.

I have agreed and disagreed with basically everyone in this thread at various times over the past few months, so don't take any of this personally. Also, I am not a righty or a lefty- both sides generally hate me equally because I am too dead center for their taste.
Click to expand...
Just curious, are you INTJ? INTP?
 
dadaddadaBATMAN said:
For someone who feels so strongly about education, you make a lot of grammatical and usage errors. Are you on a phone or something?
Normally I let this stuff slide, but if you're going to insult the general population then your writing should be impeccable.

If you're having trouble finding the errors, I'll be happy to help.
Click to expand...

Lol I'm on my ****ty phone and typed this while eating a moderately decent turkey club for lunch at the cafeteria here.
 
serenade said:
Actually Japan had largely lost the war before petal harbor. Even if they obtained the oil for their machines they couldn't have effectively ruled China and as such would have been bankrupt.

Italy was essentially broken when their bs Libyan invasion was defeated and the Germans needed to send Rommel.

Germany lost the war when they choose to invade the USSR instead of launching the invasion of British Iraq and Iran.

The US essentially insure that the Soviets and the British survived the war without even more great loses. Kursk would likely have been another Stalingrad without the Americans. And London likely would have been relocated to other locations.

So... Yah... Don't really lecture me on history...

And yes, the European model would work here. The only deterrent is that people need to wise up and accept facts over prejudice.
Click to expand...
There are many, many centrist policy analysts that disagree with you. American social and class barriers are too great and such a system would likely result in certain groups becoming resentful for paying the way for others, in a way that would likely ultimately fragment and destroy the US entirely. If you want this country to remain united, socialism is impossible.
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
I like when people get real serious about themselves on the internet.

Guys, don't lecture Serenade on history, OK? He'll kick your f*cking *ss and put you back in your wronger version of history place.
Click to expand...


Let the ENTJ rule. Life will be better under my tyranny ;)
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
I don't know much about China, can that country ever be unified? Are they creative enough to take over the world?
Click to expand...
It isn't about creativity. It is about common vision. If 1.3 billion people all work together toward a goal that has been engineered from the top down, they can surely overtake a nation of 350 million that is split in two and hates one another. They just need to create a common enemy for themselves to unify the country- classic communist tactic. I'm thinking the Sea of China is what will finally make this happen, as we swoop in to protect Japanese, Filipino, and other countries' resource rights. China didn't build anti-carrier missiles for the lulz, after all.
 
Mad Jack said:
It isn't about creativity. It is about common vision. If 1.3 billion people all work together toward a goal that has been engineered from the top down, they can surely overtake a nation of 350 million that is split in two and hates one another. They just need to create a common enemy for themselves to unify the country- classic communist tactic. I'm thinking the Sea of China is what will finally make this happen, as we swoop in to protect Japanese, Filipino, and other countries' resource rights. China didn't build anti-carrier missiles for the lulz, after all.
Click to expand...

Their anti-air craft carriers are floating **** stains.

The Japanese could militarize and counter any Chinese threat in the Sea of Japan or the skies. And there is no value in the Philippines.


Again, China isn't unified as a nation. In fact it's fundamentally fractured an very likely to break because the people aren't unified.
The conditions in China right now almost mimic every single period of dynastic upheaval. And trust me, this time enormous chunks will opt to leave.
 
Nidor said:
:) I find that comforting, it was still fun to look up though
Click to expand...


Personally I really enjoy Jung's theories. His collective consciousness is kinda metaphysical enough to be the premise for like generations of bad SciFi writers like me lmao
 
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