Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

[Digsbe]

Are you a hospital pharmacist or are you working retail? If retail, is it full-time, part-time or overnight?

Retail 40 hr full time days

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[swatchgirl]

Retail 40 hr full time days

How long have you been a retail pharmacist? Do you like it better than hospital? Are you male or female, single or married with kids? Thanks!

 

[Digsbe]

How long have you been a retail pharmacist? Do you like it better than hospital? Are you male or female, single or married with kids? Thanks!

I'm just starting, I wouldn't say I like it more or less than hospital. In retail I love giving immunizations and time goes by faster, the cons obviously are that it's retail. Hospital you get breaks, can sit, but honestly it felt monotonous when I did hospital staffing on rotation. It wasn't bad, time just went slower. There are pros and cons to both, but most pharmacists will probably say they would prefer hospital.

I'm male, single, no kids.

 

[8turkeys]

https://pharmacymanpower.com/trends.php

New data is out, any thoughts? It looks like they have separated southern Cali from northern Cali.

 

[Circumnavigate]

https://pharmacymanpower.com/trends.php

New data is out, any thoughts? It looks like they have separated southern Cali from northern Cali.

Those numbers are suspicious. I have been following that site, they released numbers for September 2016 and said Montana was at 4.0, two months later they release numbers for December 2016 and say Montana is 3.0. A bunch of other states have had drastic number shifts in that two month period, this leads me to question the accuracy of their numbers.

 

[gwarm01]

Those numbers are suspicious. I have been following that site, they released numbers for September 2016 and said Montana was at 4.0, two months later they release numbers for December 2016 and say Montana is 3.0. A bunch of other states have had drastic number shifts in that two month period, this leads me to question the accuracy of their numbers.

Maybe Montana had 10 openings and managed to fill a few of them with desperate pharmacists from the northeast?

If anything the Manpower Project has been criticized for being a little too forgiving with regard to the actual pharmacist market in the past. Perhaps they've revamped their methods? Hell, it could be something as simple as a big push by a major retailer during the previous data sample. Something like CVS entering a new market causing a brief surge in demand. Who can tell.. Their overall trend data (which appears to be unavailable at the moment) has shown a steady decrease in demand over the past decade.

 

[PharmerIsMe]

Those numbers are suspicious. I have been following that site, they released numbers for September 2016 and said Montana was at 4.0, two months later they release numbers for December 2016 and say Montana is 3.0. A bunch of other states have had drastic number shifts in that two month period, this leads me to question the accuracy of their numbers.

I agree, we should not rely on this indicator at all. They even stated it in the website:
"Data and information are provided for informational purposes only. Neither the Pharmacy Workforce Center nor any of its affiliates shall be liable for any errors or delays in the content or for any actions taken in reliance thereon."

Also, they have the following statement:
"The Pharmacist Demand Indicator (PDI) reports perceptions of the demand for pharmacists among a panel of individuals that participate in the hiring of pharmacists on a direct and regular basis."

Perception of demand...a panel of individuals. Enough said.

It would be nice to say in the real world something like this without getting scrutinized by others:
"our PT committee perceives that this drug is cheaper than the other"
Or
"A new article by the NEJM perceives that atenolol decreases side effects..."

 

[Sine Cura]

Just treat it as another piece of information and consider other pieces of information.

Ex: Nevada has a low PDI. Hmm, Roseman graduates 200+ a year and 80% of Nevada's population is either in Clark County or around Reno. The other 20% live in places "no one wants to go." This one is not too surprising.

Ex: Northern California has the same PDI as Alaska? Hmm, unlikely in the Bay Area and Sacramento with 4 pharmacy schools in northern CA (Touro, UCSF, UoP, CNUCOP) but some pockets are in higher demand than other areas (North Coast, Shastas, Gold Country, Central Valley 50 miles south and 50 miles north of Sacramento).

 

[UW2015]

I got my license 2 months ago. Can't land a job in my area so I'm getting licensed in 2 more states now. The job market is extremely tight. Many positions in my area require "1 year experience" basically to say "new grads need not even try." Despite having hospital based APPEs it's still impossible to land even overnight shifts. The saturation is real. If you cant land a job withib a month or 2 of licensure just get licensed in other states. The situation isn't going to change.

Where the heck are you located? A good portion of last years class at my school is employed, most in state with some returning to home states, or going to other states for rotations.... Are you only looking for clinical positions?

 

[rxgirl123456]

Recently got licensed and currently living in the Metropolitan area. I've talked to classmates, many have found jobs, but some have been unemployed since graduation May 2016. I'm thinking of just getting licensed in other states to increase my odds of employment. I've never worked during school, meaning the only experience I have are APPE rotations. What are my chances of employment? I'm willing to move to other state, however, I'm scared that with my lack of experience, even rural areas won't hire me.

 

[Litha]

Recently got licensed this month and currently living in the Metropolitan area. I've talked to classmates, many have found jobs, but some have been unemployed since graduation May 2016. I'm thinking of just getting licensed in other states (Alaska, Texas, Cali) to increase my odds of employment. I've never worked during school, meaning the only experience I have are APPE rotations. What are my chances of employment? I'm willing to move to other state, however, I'm scared that with my lack of experience, even rural areas won't hire me.

You graduated in May 2016 and just got licensed this month? What have you been doing since graduation?

While getting licensed in other states can be lucrative, it is also very expensive and I would urge you to think carefully about the cost vs. benefits before shelling out thousands for multiple states licenses.

Multiple red flags for me here... Not working during school, extremely large gap between graduation and getting licensed. You are right that your lack of experience means you are a risky bet for many places, especially now that it's about time for Class of 2017 to get in the game.

 

[rxgirl123456]

You graduated in May 2016 and just got licensed this month? What have you been doing since graduation?

While getting licensed in other states can be lucrative, it is also very expensive and I would urge you to think carefully about the cost vs. benefits before shelling out thousands for multiple states licenses.

Multiple red flags for me here... Not working during school, extremely large gap between graduation and getting licensed. You are right that your lack of experience means you are a risky bet for many places, especially now that it's about time for Class of 2017 to get in the game.

Thank you for you input Litha,
I took the boards and failed the Naplex once, which was a bummer and a confidence killer. Then, I decided to take some time off and went abroad for a while and came back all refreshed and began studying for the new naplex.
I know those are concerns, which is why I'm asking for opinions on what I should be doing right now.
I have classmates who had been licensed since the summer and had been working during school and they are still unemployed at the moment because they haven't applied out of state.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Thank you for you input Litha,
I took the boards and failed the Naplex once, which was a bummer and a confidence killer. Then, I decided to take some time off and went abroad for a while and came back all refreshed and began studying for the new naplex.
I know those are concerns, which is why I'm asking for opinions on what I should be doing right now.
I have classmates who had been licensed since the summer and had been working during school and they are still unemployed at the moment because they haven't applied out of state.

What state are you in, just out of curiosity?

 

[Litha]

Thank you for you input Litha,
I took the boards and failed the Naplex once, which was a bummer and a confidence killer. Then, I decided to take some time off and went abroad for a while and came back all refreshed and began studying for the new naplex.
I know those are concerns, which is why I'm asking for opinions on what I should be doing right now.
I have classmates who had been licensed since the summer and had been working during school and they are still unemployed at the moment because they haven't applied out of state.

That makes sense, I appreciate your honesty in sharing that. I would say you could turn the going abroad experience into a positive thing, allowing you to gain a broader perspective and become more focused before pursuing employment. Yes failing the Naplex is a terrible thing, but you passed now and are ready to go!

Most importantly, apply broadly and be willing to take any position and move if necessary. I would recommend getting licensed in neighboring states or states you could see yourself living in, don't pick ones at random.

 

[rxgirl123456]

That makes sense, I appreciate your honesty in sharing that. I would say you could turn the going abroad experience into a positive thing, allowing you to gain a broader perspective and become more focused before pursuing employment. Yes failing the Naplex is a terrible thing, but you passed now and are ready to go!

Most importantly, apply broadly and be willing to take any position and move if necessary. I would recommend getting licensed in neighboring states or states you could see yourself living in, don't pick ones at random.

Thanks again!
I'm also looking into getting licensed in neighboring states, and definitely keeping my options open. I'm currently asking around about the living environments in different states because I have classmates who went out of state. Hopefully, everything will eventually work out.

 

[rxgirl123456]

What state are you in, just out of curiosity?

Hi, I'm currently in one of the tri-state areas.

 

[Rukn]

Hi, I'm currently in one of the tri-state areas.

I hope everything works out for you

 

[rxgirl123456]

I hope everything works out for you

Thanks! Sadly, I'm not the only one my year going thru this

 

[nasacort24hr]

Looks like many people are having hard time getting jobs post graduation. What is the chance to get out of state job with address from a different state? Won't employer be suspicious that you may jump ship as soon as there are chances in your home state?

 

[Digsbe]

Looks like many people are having hard time getting jobs post graduation. What is the chance to get out of state job with address from a different state? Won't employer be suspicious that you may jump ship as soon as there are chances in your home state?

I got a job in an out of state job for me with my past address. However I had a state license here prior to applying. It's possible, but I think many DMs or hiring individuals won't look at you if you have an out of state addreas. Out of applying to 15 jobs I only got 1 interview which resulted in a job. Definitely be licensed in that state first and have 0 reservations about moving. In your interview portray why you want to move and would have no reservations to accepting the position.

 

[Sine Cura]

Employers probably won't care about you being out of state if it's hard to staff a store. They know you are desperate but so are they. However, you are more desperate as you don't actually have a job probably.

I never actually met my CVS Rx sup in person before he/she hired me. (Wags on the other hand did require an in-person interview.) Actually having that license is key though because the system will probably reject your app automatically if you don't have it.

It definitely is annoying to say the least to be on the outside looking in and and know for a fact lazy idiots can cling to their retail sinecure blanket without consequence. Retail is "metricocratic" but hardly meritocratic

 

[VA77]

Licensed in 7 states. Good Luck

 

[rxgirl123456]

Licensed in 7 states. Good Luck

Still no job??

 

[VA77]

Still no job??

CA VA WV KY TN NC SC. I learned that while doing some relief work for an indy that they gave me some bad references but it is what it is but no marks on my licenses. I've seriously just made a sign to wear saying "Pharmacist for hire". At least maybe I can get a news story on the dropping employment rates and make some students think twice

 

[quickpic007]

CA VA WV KY TN NC SC. I learned that while doing some relief work for an indy that they gave me some bad references but it is what it is but no marks on my licenses. I've seriously just made a sign to wear saying "Pharmacist for hire". At least maybe I can get a news story on the dropping employment rates and make some students think twice

CVS has tons of positions in CA and VA.
did you get the CA lic on exam or reciprocate? Ive been thinking of trying to recip to get a CA lic but it looks like a pain

 

[VA77]

CA is a HUGE pain. The worse one. Took months to get them all the paperwork. Practically wanted a blood sample. Honestly, I can't do retail anymore. It kills me each time I lift that metal gate every morning.

 

[masterpharm]

Going thru this forum and it's amazing how time has changed with this profession.

 

[gwarm01]

Going thru this forum and it's amazing how time has changed with this profession.

Consider that this thread was made in '05 and was at one point called the "Sky is falling megathread." I think we've been aware of the market challenges for some time.

 

[owlegrad]

Consider that this thread was made in '05 and was at one point called the "Sky is falling megathread." I think we've been aware of the market challenges for some time.

Hahahaha I love this response so much.

 

[HeNeedsSomeMilk]

Should i even consider going to pharmacy school? I got accepted to two pharmacy schools in NY and it seems that the job market is absolutely trash. Or should i consider going into nursing or health professions.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Should i even consider going to pharmacy school? I got accepted to two pharmacy schools in NY and it seems that the job market is absolutely trash. Or should i consider going into nursing or health professions.

Computer science, finance, accounting, and engineering are all much better professions compared to pharmacy. They offer better job prospects and a better work-life balance without you having to take out $200k+ in loans and spend an additional 4 years in school.

 

[Zelda840]

I don't really understand the purpose of this copy/paste you keep posting. The job market for pharmacy is terrifying and I am most likely going to give up my spot/scholarship, but these careers you keep mentioning are so random. Accounting? Why?

 

[Sine Cura]

Most pharmacy students are so bereft of critical thinking and problem solving ability (hence why they are pharmacy students to begin with) I don't see how they can do so well in those types of careers

 

[nasacort24hr]

I don't really understand the purpose of this copy/paste you keep posting. The job market for pharmacy is terrifying and I am most likely going to give up my spot/scholarship, but these careers you keep mentioning are so random. Accounting? Why?

I think he listed the reason:
"They offer better job prospects and a better work-life balance without you having to take out $200k+ in loans and spend an additional 4 years in school."

Although I doubt they all provide better work-life balance, I agree on the part that you don't have to take out 200k + loans and additional 4 years of school.

 

[Zelda840]

As do plumbing and many other trades, but just like his examples, they have nothing in common with pharmacy. It just seems like a very random piece of advice to copy/paste so frequently.

 

[beautifulrobot]

As do plumbing and many other trades, but just like his examples, they have nothing in common with pharmacy. It just seems like a very random piece of advice to copy/paste so frequently.

I think there is an underlying assumption that most people pursue pharmacy because they think it's a quick and easy way to get a 6-figure salary, not because they actually are interested in pharmacy or related fields.

 

[owlegrad]

Also accounting is closer to pharmacy than plumbing, I would think.

 

[Saiyo]

Consider that this thread was made in '05 and was at one point called the "Sky is falling megathread." I think we've been aware of the market challenges for some time.

So when do we think the sky actually going to fall? It seems that everyone's been worried about this for 10+ years, yet year after year all the grads get jobs somewhere. This thread was made 5 years ago, but based on the comments it feels like the job market is more or less the same

 

[quickpic007]

So when do we think the sky actually going to fall? It seems that everyone's been worried about this for 10+ years, yet year after year all the grads get jobs somewhere. This thread was made 5 years ago, but based on the comments it feels like the job market is more or less the same

It will never fall, but I will admit recruiters are calling less and less each year. Sign on bonuses curtailed significantly in the last 2 years.

 

[gwarm01]

So when do we think the sky actually going to fall? It seems that everyone's been worried about this for 10+ years, yet year after year all the grads get jobs somewhere. This thread was made 5 years ago, but based on the comments it feels like the job market is more or less the same

There will always be jobs available, but the market gets tighter every single year. Salaries have been stagnant in many parts of the country as well.

People who are willing and able to move will probably be alright for a while. I feel like every story about an out of work pharmacist typically starts with an explanation on why they can't relocate.

 

[Saiyo]

People who are willing and able to move will probably be alright for a while. I feel like every story about an out of work pharmacist typically starts with an explanation on why they can't relocate.

Yeah thats true, not being able to relocate would definitely put a damper on your career unless you get lucky or are truly something special. My classmates did all find jobs, but quite a few were undesirable areas, even some retail jobs were in the outskirts of cities.

 

[pharmasaurusRex17]

Yeah thats true, not being able to relocate would definitely put a damper on your career unless you get lucky or are truly something special. My classmates did all find jobs, but quite a few were undesirable areas, even some retail jobs were in the outskirts of cities.

Same with my class haha. Our job prospect is still at practically 100% give and take some people fail naplex and mpje but they end up finding a job elsewhere. I still see the market as the same... at least from the prospects of my own class. It's all full time offers too. Maybe some in less desirable areas, but a job is still a job.

 

[JackFruitLover]

Interesting stats from Pharmacy Week. Even though there is more schools, the amount of first time p1 enrollment is decreasing. I think we have reached the bottom of the cycle, hopefully

Pharmacy Student Tipping Point WAS reached in 2015 / Overall New Pharmacy App'l DOWN, Attrition Rate Highest EVER & Enrollment FLAT


2016 Student Applications, Enrollments and Degrees Conferred are now available from the AACP! See the link at the bottom for the raw data.



Profile
2016 - 6,600 faculty, 64,300 students enrolled in professional programs, and 6,000 individuals pursuing graduate study.
2015 - 6,600 faculty, 64,400 students enrolled in professional programs, and 5,800 individuals pursuing graduate study.
2014 - 6,600 faculty, 64,800 students enrolled in professional programs, and 4,900 individuals pursuing graduate study.
2013 - 6,400 faculty, 63,800 students enrolled in professional programs, and 4,800 individuals pursuing graduate study.
2012 - 6,500 faculty, 62,500 students enrolled in professional programs, and 5,100 individuals pursuing graduate study.


Fall Enrollments
2016 - 63,464 students were enrolled in the Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.1) as the first professional degree programs.
2015 - 63,460 students were enrolled in the Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.1) as the first professional degree programs.
2014 - 63,927 students were enrolled in the Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.1) as the first professional degree programs.
2013 - 62,743 students were enrolled in the Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.1) as the first professional degree programs.
2012 - 61,275 students were enrolled in the Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.1) as the first professional degree programs.


Number of accredited U.S. colleges and schools of pharmacy
2016 - 138 (137 submitted data) (Accredited 131 / Candidate Status 6 / Pre-candidate Status 4 = 141 total / POSSIBLY 20+ MORE SCHOOLS COMING!)
2015 - 135 (133 submitted data)
2014 - 133 (131 submitted data)
2013 - 130 (127 submitted data)
2012 - 129 (127 submitted data)


Applications
2016 - 78,514 2.53% Increase over 2015 BUT 4 More Schools since 2015! Applications submitted to first professional degree programs at schools and colleges of pharmacy.
2015 - 76,525 10.7% Decrease! Applications received by colleges and schools of pharmacy for every one entering student enrolled is no longer being tracked and/or published.
2014 - 85,754 5.5 applications were received by colleges and schools of pharmacy for every one entering student enrolled in fall 2014.
2013 - 87,956 5.6 applications were received by colleges and schools of pharmacy for every one entering student enrolled in fall 2013.
2012 - 99,821 6.4 applications were received by colleges and schools of pharmacy for every one entering student enrolled in fall 2012.
2011 - 112,000 Approx. This ratio for 2010-11 was 7.0 applications for every one entering student in fall 2011.


Enrollment (Enrollments in all professional years rose 0.4 percent; however, the number of first professional year enrollments decreased 1.5 percent.)
2016 - 14,556 0.0386% increase. This is the largest number of degrees conferred in the history of pharmacy education.
2015 - 13,994 1.1 % increase. The number of first professional year enrollments decreased 0.6 percent.
2014 - 13,838 4.8 % increase.
2013 - 13,207 3.8% increase
2012 - 12,719 6.6% increase
2011 - 11,931


Attrition rate
2016 - 12.0% The attrition rate includes academic dismissals, student withdrawals, and delayed graduations. Increasing over last 12+ years from near zero in early 2000's!
2015 - 11.6%
2014 - 10.3%
2013 - 11.1%
2012 - 10.2%


Pharm.D. degrees conferred to individuals already holding a professional baccalaureate in pharmacy Decreasing over last 5 years!
2016 - 326 Increased by 16.3 percent from 2015-16
2015 - 273 Decreased by 19.5 percent from 2013-14.
2014 - 339
2013 - 344
2012 - 444


Number of individuals enrolled in postbaccalaureate Pharm.D. Decreasing over last 5 years!
2016 - 840 The number of individuals enrolled in postbaccalaureate Pharm.D. 2 programs decreased by 10.3% to 840 from 936 enrolled in fall 2015.
2015 - 936 The number of individuals enrolled in postbaccalaureate Pharm.D. 2 programs increased slightly to 936 from 935 enrolled in fall 2014.
2014 - 935 The number of Pharm.D.2 students enrolled (n=935) decreased by 16.4 percent from fall 2013.
2013 - 1,118 The number of Pharm.D.2 students enrolled (n=1,118) decreased by 11.3 percent from fall 2012.
2012 - 1,260 The number of Pharm.D.2 students enrolled (n=1,260) decreased by 6.0 percent from fall 2011.


M.S. degrees conferred Increased 42.1 percent in 2015-16!
2016 - 1,023 The number of M.S. degrees conferred increased 42.1 percent in 2015-16 and the number of Ph.D. degrees conferred decreased 2.5 percent.
2015 - 720 7.1 decrease
2014 - 775 18.3% increase
2013 - 655
2012 - 681


First professional degrees conferred No change
2016 - 60.4% Women & 38.6% Men
2015 - 61.6% Women & 38.4% Men
2014 - 60.4% Women & 39.6% Men
2013 - 61.7% Women & 38.3% Men
2012 - 61.2% Women & 38.8% Men

 

[gwarm01]

Interesting stats from Pharmacy Week. Even though there is more schools, the amount of first time p1 enrollment is decreasing. I think we have reached the bottom of the cycle, hopefully

Pharmacy Student Tipping Point WAS reached in 2015 / Overall New Pharmacy App'l DOWN, Attrition Rate Highest EVER & Enrollment FLAT

Interesting trend, but we still have a long way to go to balance things out. The idea of 20+ new schools on the way is really frightening.

 

[owlegrad]

Interesting trend, but we still have a long way to go to balance things out. The idea of 20+ new schools on the way is really frightening.

But if overall enrollment is down, who cares?

 

[gwarm01]

But if overall enrollment is down, who cares?

The total enrollment only decreased by a modest amount and is still way higher than it needs to be. 20 new schools certainly won't make it better.

Positive take: the massive and increasing attrition rate coupled with the higher NAPLEX failure rates shows that we aren't just handing out degrees and licenses to just anyone. I hope this trend continues and word gets out. It's not that I'm being greedy and don't want the next generation to have a chance, which is something many of us have been accused of, but rather because I don't want to see thousands of young people waste years of their lives and gather 6& figure debt for a job they'll never have. If you're a 2.0 student who scored a 30 on the PCAT, take a hard look at this stats and ask yourself if that newly opened and unaccredited school is really looking after your best interest.

 

[JackFruitLover]

But if overall enrollment is down, who cares?

I agree! If the amount of applicants has decreased so far by 40% since 2011 and with the new changes in Naplex, I doubt these extra 20 schools will produce competent graduates that can pass the boards. There
are numerous of schools currently that have a 50% Naplex pass rate! If they continue opening these 20 schools, it will just only open faculty jobs for us lol.

 

[diastereomerictruthRx]

I'd like to chime in. As a pharmacy student I feel like the current statistics do not tell the whole truth. In the near future, a lot of undergrad and applicants will choose primary health care professions, albeit nursing, PA, NP, Med, etc.. even DTP, more than expected. As a consequence the outlook of pharmacy will balance out. The differentiator between Rx and others is the curriculum in P2, where you have chemistry and math intensive courses. The funny fact of the matter is that in the long run a lot of potential hopefuls who barely got through/hated orgo, and barely got through or hated calculus, will hesitate to apply to Rx all things considered. In Rx, you definitely need the basics of chemistry, and once you start talking about drug structures and functional groups, (chirality, in vitro metabolism, and log P) one should have at least paid attention in orgo. (Current applicants don't worry, you will learn this later, and honestly you can memorize your way through lol). Why hasn't this decline in Rx applications happened yet? Because there is now all the crazy talk of primary care shortage. Evidence of what I'm saying is that online drug databases, perhaps martindales, are even excluding chemical structures from here on out because they feel it is unnecessary or what not, starting next year. The looming fear is that students will not want to apply to Rx because they're scared of the curriculum, and the demanding aspects of being a pharmacist. There will be enough of a decline in future applicants that future and current Rx students will simply find employment. I'm not saying that one needs to be an expert in chem to succeed in Rx school, as I said earlier, in the med chem and orgo content one could just memorize through, but even that required that you paid attention, and definitely had a decent grasp in Chem 1 and Chem 2 at least. I personally take pride in becoming a pharmacist and I guess what i'm saying is that there are always two sides of a story, and if this is what you would like to do, then I say don't listen to all the negativity. Just like enantiomers are not superimposable images, the reality of what the pharmacy outlook is, is not what is depicted here. If you have a gut feeling that pharmacy is for you, I would say ignore the negativity and study hard!

 

[gwarm01]

Ignoring something because it isn't what you want to hear is just bad science. You studied science, so be a good scientist. Make an informed decision based on all available data.

All of the pharmacy passion talk is just more "follow your dream" nonsense designed to fleece emotional young college students out of their money. When reality sets in you won't give a damn what the younger, more optimistic and naive version of yourself had a gut feeling about. This is one of the largest and most important financial decisions of your life, so be smart about it.

 

[diastereomerictruthRx]

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