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http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/suppl/2011/02/02/30.2.193.DC1/2010-0597_LoSasso_Appendix.pdf

The above link is from the study "The $16,819 Pay Gap For Newly Trained Physicians: The Unexplained Trend Of Men Earning More Than Women" by Sasso et al.

The researchers took an average starting salary for NY physicians in each specialty who were in their first year of non-training practice (i.e. after residency). The study was controlled for inflation, MD vs DO degrees, location (suburban, urban, rural), race, practice type, age, citizenship, amount of debt, etc. The study took place over several years (1999-2008) and new men physicians made consistently (and significantly ... +12.5%) more than new women physicians. Food for thought.

 

Prncssbuttercup

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This isn't news. The stats were posted in ~2011/2012...
 
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GiveMeThatMD

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Women take (on average) more time off than men for things like children. Women don't negotiate as aggressively as men. Lots of stuff excluding sexism. Case closed.
 
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just_SAIYAN

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Women take (on average) more time off than men for things like children. Women don't negotiate as aggressively as men. Lots of stuff excluding sexism. Case closed.
"Women don't negotiate as aggressively as men" that's a sexist stereotype and false my friend. I know plenty of women who are just if not more tenacious than men in getting what they want.... just saiyan
 

GiveMeThatMD

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Maybe he's talking about on average?
I sure was. No offense meant by the comment, really, just meant to infer that given the option, most do not. For those that do, you can absolutely bet they are just as/more effective than their peers.
 

StudyLater

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Correct... The ones I used to work with in the OR that talked about their salaries were making 500k+/year... There was one spine surgeon that said he makes 800k/year.
Were these perchance senior individuals in PP?
 

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Were these perchance senior individuals in PP?
I don't know how they define senior here.... The spine doc that said he makes 800k/year was a doc for less than 10 years.. The other ortho docs have been in practice for more than 20 years judging by their age... They all were in PP.
 

StudyLater

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Could've been senior partners. For all you know the junior one started the practice.
 

Cardboard101

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I don't know how they define senior here.... The spine doc that said he makes 800k/year was a doc for less than 10 years.. The other ortho docs have been in practice for more than 20 years judging by their age... They all were in PP.
These stats are for new docs in the over saturated NY area 3-4 years ago. 250k for ortho seems reasonable. The data was also inflation adjusted using the CPI from 2008 during the recession so...
 
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StudyLater

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These stats are for new docs in the over saturated NY area 3-4 years ago. 250k for ortho seems reasonable.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention this.

So yeah massive pay cut for a good reason.

These docs weren't in the same group... I know the spine doc partners with another doc and they have a thriving practice.
So there you go. These were starting salaries. 250k really isn't anything to cry about. With that said of course take better offers if you get them.
 

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Oh yeah I forgot to mention this.

So yeah massive pay cut for a good reason.



So there you go. These were starting salaries. 250k really isn't anything to cry about. With that said of course take better offers if you get them.
I don't think starting salary for ortho is that low either...
 

StudyLater

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I don't think starting salary for ortho is that low either...
In one of the biggest cities in the world? Yeah, you're getting a niceee little 30-50% pay cut to live in an overpopulated urban area.
 

Cardboard101

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I don't think starting salary for ortho is that low either...
Its new doc starting salary + the NY location + data from 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty sure ortho salaries have grown steadily by a few percent the last couple years from when this was posted.
 
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StudyLater

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Its new doc starting salary + the NY location + data from 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty sure ortho salaries have grown steadily by a few percent the last couple years from when this was posted.
Or maybe they went down. That darn Obama taking our Lexuses.
 
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StudyLater

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Until you realize you've got $400-500k in crippling debt. :p
I'll just pretend it doesn't exist while I buy a mansion and have eight kids with my trophy wife. Weekends in Monaco with my mistress which I'll fly to in my private jet.

I shall also have a pimp chalice. This is a must.
 

StudyLater

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Wow! I did not realize the pay cut was so severe...
It's like you're one of the only guys selling bread vs. selling bread while there's a bakery on every corner. In which situation do you make more money?
 

Bacchus

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Those salaries are low for Pennsylvania family medicine and probably most places in the country except for extremely urban and "desirable" areas.
 
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oceanman

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Been doing some research and from what I have seen, FM, IM and EM all have some pretty good starting salaries. This is completely different from what I thought before. Here are some examples:

FM: Minimum $225k. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/family-practice/details?jobNumber=218016

IM: Starting at $200K and going way up to $275K. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/internal-medicine/details?jobNumber=214240

EM: $250/hr! This can't be real. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/emergency-medicine/details?jobNumber=747026

Somehow stumbled upon this website. Just was not able to figure out how old these job listings were, but still this is beyond what I would have imagined. Hoping someone can comment about this.
 

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Been doing some research and from what I have seen, FM, IM and EM all have some pretty good starting salaries. This is completely different from what I thought before. Here are some examples:

FM: Minimum $225k. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/family-practice/details?jobNumber=218016

IM: Starting at $200K and going way up to $275K. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/internal-medicine/details?jobNumber=214240

EM: $250/hr! This can't be real. http://www.comphealth.com/physician/emergency-medicine/details?jobNumber=747026

Somehow stumbled upon this website. Just was not able to figure out how old these job listings were, but still this is beyond what I would have imagined. Hoping someone can comment about this.
It's real for EM... The 225k (assuming with benefits) for FM starting salary might be an outlier...
 

arc5005

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Correct... The ones I used to work with in the OR that talked about their salaries were making 500k+/year... There was one spine surgeon that said he makes 800k/year.
This is probably due to bonuses and other stuff.

Women take (on average) more time off than men for things like children. Women don't negotiate as aggressively as men. Lots of stuff excluding sexism. Case closed.
As a gay male, it pleases me to know that my future partner and I will benefit from non-sexist pay differences. Finally found one benefit of male-male relationships. Now, who is gonna make us our sandwiches? :(

 
T

trev5150

"Women don't negotiate as aggressively as men" that's a sexist stereotype and false my friend. I know plenty of women who are just if not more tenacious than men in getting what they want.... just saiyan
Women professors in Women's Studies will tell you this flat out. Not a sexist statement, but a fact. Any HR Generalist will tell you the same thing. Women are less aggressive in negotiating salaries. Check out these articles about why women don't ask for more money, by women authors:
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/04/08/300290240/why-women-dont-ask-for-more-money
http://www.salary.com/why-women-don-t-negotiate/

Accusing someone of sexism for discussing a fact is pretty irresponsible.
 
T

trev5150

This is probably due to bonuses and other stuff.



As a gay male, it pleases me to know that my future partner and I will benefit from non-sexist pay differences. Finally found one benefit of male-male relationships. Now, who is gonna make us our sandwiches? :(

I'll tell you the same thing I got told by my then-fiance: Make your own damn sandwich, champ.
 
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just_SAIYAN

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Women professors in Women's Studies will tell you this flat out. Not a sexist statement, but a fact. Any HR Generalist will tell you the same thing. Women are less aggressive in negotiating salaries. Check out these articles about why women don't ask for more money, by women authors:
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/04/08/300290240/why-women-dont-ask-for-more-money
http://www.salary.com/why-women-don-t-negotiate/

Accusing someone of sexism for discussing a fact is pretty irresponsible.
First off, it's not a fact because it cannot be proven without a doubt, there are too many variables (personalities, confidence, intelligence etc ...) that go into determining if someone is a good negotiator. And your telling me every HR and women's studies will back your statement C'mon be realistic.

And anyone can go on google and find studies to back any personality/gender difference debate imaginable. Let me illustrate for you:

https://www.mainstreet.com/article/women-may-be-better-negotiators-than-men-old-stereotypes-die-hard

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7926-men-not-better-negotiators.html

I may have been a bit harsh when I accused a previous poster of being sexist, I just think generalizing gender roles is outdated in this day and age.
 
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trev5150

First off, it's not a fact because it cannot be proven without a doubt, there are too many variables (personalities, confidence, intelligence etc ...) that go into determining if someone is a good negotiator. And your telling me every HR and women's studies will back your statement C'mon be realistic.

And anyone can go on google and find studies to back any personality/gender difference debate imaginable. Let me illustrate for you:

https://www.mainstreet.com/article/women-may-be-better-negotiators-than-men-old-stereotypes-die-hard

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7926-men-not-better-negotiators.html

I may have been a bit harsh when I accused a previous poster of being sexist, I just think generalizing gender roles is outdated in this day and age.
Generalizing gender roles is outdated in "this day and age" (kind of an anachronistic turn of phrase isn't it?) but that's not what we're talking about here. Just because we have enlightened sensibilities doesn't mean that we should deny the reality of what is actually happening in the world and try to understand why and how it occurs so that we may be positive agents of change.

With regards to those WS and HR types, yes I do think they'll back up the generalization (and I'll add a few psychologists that would concur) and they, and I, would also agree that there are exceptions and variables (as there are for everything under the sun) but the the thing about this generalization is that it's pretty easy to get a solid correlation between gender and effort expended when negotiating compensation. You can name as many people that you know personally (bad science BTW - sample size is statiscially next to useless) as not being representative of the concept as you like and that's fantastic, however that doesn't begin to make a dent in the overall dynamic of the workplace nationwide or globally.

And that's another thing that has to be taken into consideration - talking about negotiating comp narrows the workforce to actual salaried employees. The opportunity to negotiate salary arises very rarely, and even rarer is the employee that actually recognizes when that opportunity has arrived, regardless of gender.

Economic status also has a lot to do with any kind of recent numbers. Most people are damn lucky to have a job or the opportunity to interview for one and aren't willing to risk not getting a job because the employer decided that stated salary requirements are too high. Thus stated comp expectations since 2008 have been lower than normal and employers are taking advantage of the fact to try and drive costs for pay and bennies down. All of that is regardless of gender, and because of that any numbers since about 2007-08 are going to be lower than the previous ten years.

You may have figured out by now that I've had a lot of experience with this having lived in the management world for quite some time before returning to school to change careers. I spent countless hours with my previous company's HR arm discussing this very topic.
 

just_SAIYAN

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Generalizing gender roles is outdated in "this day and age" (kind of an anachronistic turn of phrase isn't it?) but that's not what we're talking about here. Just because we have enlightened sensibilities doesn't mean that we should deny the reality of what is actually happening in the world and try to understand why and how it occurs so that we may be positive agents of change.

With regards to those WS and HR types, yes I do think they'll back up the generalization (and I'll add a few psychologists that would concur) and they, and I, would also agree that there are exceptions and variables (as there are for everything under the sun) but the the thing about this generalization is that it's pretty easy to get a solid correlation between gender and effort expended when negotiating compensation. You can name as many people that you know personally (bad science BTW - sample size is statiscially next to useless) as not being representative of the concept as you like and that's fantastic, however that doesn't begin to make a dent in the overall dynamic of the workplace nationwide or globally.

And that's another thing that has to be taken into consideration - talking about negotiating comp narrows the workforce to actual salaried employees. The opportunity to negotiate salary arises very rarely, and even rarer is the employee that actually recognizes when that opportunity has arrived, regardless of gender.

Economic status also has a lot to do with any kind of recent numbers. Most people are damn lucky to have a job or the opportunity to interview for one and aren't willing to risk not getting a job because the employer decided that stated salary requirements are too high. Thus stated comp expectations since 2008 have been lower than normal and employers are taking advantage of the fact to try and drive costs for pay and bennies down. All of that is regardless of gender, and because of that any numbers since about 2007-08 are going to be lower than the previous ten years.

You may have figured out by now that I've had a lot of experience with this having lived in the management world for quite some time before returning to school to change careers. I spent countless hours with my previous company's HR arm discussing this very topic.
Okay man, I think your taking this a little too personal. Such a lengthy response while not getting much accomplished. If we are talking about negotiating salary strictly then if a said person is in the position to negotiate salary they are obviously pretty good at what they do and or have a certain skill set that is of high value. (As you said it is a rare scenario)...Being male or female is going to carry little weight on how well that individual negotiates (it will be more of a make up of their personality traits).

If we are talking who is better at negotiating as an entire gender. I think it's a toss up. There's no facts here period. It all comes down to who you talk to and matter of opinion. There will be research and evidence to back either side. So saying one gender negotiates better then the other means absolutely nothing. It will ultimately just end up being a matter of opinion.

This will be my last post on the topic.
 

GiveMeThatMD

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Omg, the comments. There's a fight in there between a neurosurgery resident and someone who thinks said resident doesn't work as hard as cucumber pickers.
Or public defense attorneys. Or teachers. Or lawyers. Or construction workers. ****, do physicians even work at all? Trick question, of course they do. Gotta work toward counting all them greens $_$ they're racking in.

If I were to die and go to hell, it'd take me 2 weeks to realize I left that comment section.
 
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esob

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OP says "non training" but then also "after residency." But it seems some of these specialties require a fellowship so are the pay figures based on what the physician is paid during fellowship or after fellowship (if that specialty requires a fellowship)?
 
T

trev5150

Okay man, I think your taking this a little too personal.
The perfect stock millennial passive-aggressive avoidance response. Me further discussing an issue and disagreeing with your limited view is not me taking it personally. You refuse to explore and accept other viewpoints or information from people that don't agree with you or have more experience than you do. You don't want to learn or understand how the issue is more complex than whatever it is that you've been indoctrinated with in your short years. You wouldn't even bother to read my response, hiding behind a half-assed TL;DR.

You specifically and your generation in general are going to have a rough time because you are going to be working for my generation, and we in general think y'alls entitled attitude sucks. You can't handle criticism, rejection or failure at all. You think that you should always have the last word, and it doesn't work like that. You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.
 
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darknecrosforte

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The perfect stock millennial passive-aggressive avoidance response. Me further discussing an issue and disagreeing with your limited view is not me taking it personally. You refuse to explore and accept other viewpoints or information from people that don't agree with you or have more experience than you do. You don't want to learn or understand how the issue is more complex than whatever it is that you've been indoctrinated with in your short years. You wouldn't even bother to read my response, hiding behind a half-assed TL;DR.

You specifically and your generation in general are going to have a rough time because you are going to be working for my generation, and we in general think y'alls entitled attitude sucks. You can't handle criticism, rejection or failure at all. You think that you should always have the last word, and it doesn't work like that. You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.
 
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DO2015CA

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You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.
Didn't you learn from the mcat never pick all,none, never, and always. Hehe

Although you have summed up a lot of attitudes in my generation it's not everyone
 

The_Bird

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The perfect stock millennial passive-aggressive avoidance response. Me further discussing an issue and disagreeing with your limited view is not me taking it personally. You refuse to explore and accept other viewpoints or information from people that don't agree with you or have more experience than you do. You don't want to learn or understand how the issue is more complex than whatever it is that you've been indoctrinated with in your short years. You wouldn't even bother to read my response, hiding behind a half-assed TL;DR.

You specifically and your generation in general are going to have a rough time because you are going to be working for my generation, and we in general think y'alls entitled attitude sucks. You can't handle criticism, rejection or failure at all. You think that you should always have the last word, and it doesn't work like that. You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.
 

just_SAIYAN

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The perfect stock millennial passive-aggressive avoidance response. Me further discussing an issue and disagreeing with your limited view is not me taking it personally. You refuse to explore and accept other viewpoints or information from people that don't agree with you or have more experience than you do. You don't want to learn or understand how the issue is more complex than whatever it is that you've been indoctrinated with in your short years. You wouldn't even bother to read my response, hiding behind a half-assed TL;DR.

You specifically and your generation in general are going to have a rough time because you are going to be working for my generation, and we in general think y'alls entitled attitude sucks. You can't handle criticism, rejection or failure at all. You think that you should always have the last word, and it doesn't work like that. You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.
So easily provoked and now you're attacking my age and generation because you and your entire generation think we suck. Hmmm . Someone's got a bad attitude.
 
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darknecrosforte

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So easily provoked and now you're attacking my age and generation because you and your entire generation think we suck. Hmmm . Someone's got a bad attitude.
The point is that you use non-arguments to de-rail the validity of data because of the typical "not all ______ are like that". Duh. There are always exceptions. You want to throw out all data because it doesn't all conform one way? Should we just not try to ever generalize?

Why do people play little troll games saying that nothing is conclusive or that we don't know anything? -_-
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Right, let me interject and be a 'tie' breaker if necessary. A significant component of female potential earning is lost due to a few major factors. 1. Women are usually drawn to for reasons ( I don't think I need to explain the world here) to certain fields i.e in medicine Peds for ex ( likewise due to other reasons they likely work less per year). 2. Our world is sexist, women do not aggressively negotiate for raises or pay increases ( And in many ways due to sexist perceptions even when they do it is seen negatively). 3. Women in general just end up getting paid less beginning off due to the combination of the above.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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The perfect stock millennial passive-aggressive avoidance response. Me further discussing an issue and disagreeing with your limited view is not me taking it personally. You refuse to explore and accept other viewpoints or information from people that don't agree with you or have more experience than you do. You don't want to learn or understand how the issue is more complex than whatever it is that you've been indoctrinated with in your short years. You wouldn't even bother to read my response, hiding behind a half-assed TL;DR.

You specifically and your generation in general are going to have a rough time because you are going to be working for my generation, and we in general think y'alls entitled attitude sucks. You can't handle criticism, rejection or failure at all. You think that you should always have the last word, and it doesn't work like that. You think that you are owed something on the basis of some schedule that you make up in your own head. You think that you should be rewarded for others achievements. You think that life should be fair and it just plain isn't. You are weak. That's how all of us perceive all of you.

Let me be frank in saying that you're correct in your critique of Saiyan. That being said you're not progressing anything with your attitude or generalizations. Yes, my generation has some problems. But lets not pretend that other generations have some sort of clever or fresh approach to discourse or logic because in truth they were more likely than not more dogmatic, less willing to listen, and more inclined to believe in immovable constants than my generation.
 

just_SAIYAN

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Just want to put out there that trev came at me a week or 2 after I had posted about men not at always being better negotiators. I didn't like his tone so I thought I would try and get a rise out of him and argue with him for arguments sake, and guess what he flew off the handle and made a fool of himself.

Are men generally better negotiators then women maybe, there is research for both sides of the statement and one could argue either way. I think it has more to do with circumstances and personality traits rather than gender but that's just me. Trev is apparently and expert in gender negotiation skills so there's really no point to further this debate.

Hey trev, the accusations you made about "my generation are just plain stupid" we are definitely not all like that. There's going to be good ones and bad ones in every generation. I suggest you change your general view of "my generation" or it's going to be a long miserable road for you because we are not going anywhere anytime soon.

I also agree with serenade in that women's lower salaries are a factor of multiple things (taking more time off then men, gender bias, sex discrimination).
 

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My wife and I are both anesthesia residents and we have both been offered jobs for the same exact salary. I will probably take a more cushy job, with better hours, and no call, and I'll probably end up making 1/2 of what she will make.
 
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