Physicians need to have better PR campaign...

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Splenda88

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I had a couple encounters this week in which family members straight out told me doctors care more about money and prestige than taking care of patients. I tried to tell them that based on my experience as a physician, the overwhelming majority of physicians love what they do, and care deeply about their patients.

They both went on a rant about how docs are aloof to the problem of the common folks. Why do the general public have that kind of sentiment about us? I don't get it because most of the docs I have worked with are genuine people who care about the wellbeing of their patients
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Splenda88 said:
I had a couple encounters this week in which family members straight out told me doctors care more about money and prestige than taking care of patients. I tried to tell them that based on my experience as a physician, the overwhelming majority of physicians love what they do, and care deeply about their patients.

They both went on a rant about how docs are aloof to the problem of the common folks. Why do the general public have that kind of sentiment about us? I don't get it because most of the docs I have worked with are genuine people who care about the wellbeing of their patients
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Because people in general are ignorant
 
In these situations, I try to non-defensively share my own experience that most doctors do care. I then try to convey that I cannot control what others have done, but that I will do my best for them.

Most people do not express that so I don't get too worked up about it.

My grandfather-in-law once told me he "knew" docs do a lot of things just to get a kickback. I told him there are literally laws against that, and he understood what I was saying, but that probably did not extinguish the notion entirely.

Just do the best you can. Communicate well. People cannot really gauge how good you are as a doctor so they instead will gauge you by bedside manner, appearance, etc.
 
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Splenda88 said:
I had a couple encounters this week in which family members straight out told me doctors care more about money and prestige than taking care of patients. I tried to tell them that based on my experience as a physician, the overwhelming majority of physicians love what they do, and care deeply about their patients.

They both went on a rant about how docs are aloof to the problem of the common folks. Why do the general public have that kind of sentiment about us? I don't get it because most of the docs I have worked with are genuine people who care about the wellbeing of their patients
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The public LOVES to criticize physicians until it’s time for an emergency surgery, then their tune quickly changes up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Many physicians are aloof to what the average joe has to deal with just like many average joes have no idea about the trials and tribulations impacting physicians.

Here is an example: My wife and I have experienced many situations where attending physicians are talking/ complaining about problems with their second house, luxury car, or expensive vacation to ancillary staff at the hospital that are making 15 dollars an hour. Comes off as tone deaf. That employee is just trying to stay afloat , and keep a roof of their heads while hoping their car doesnt break down this month. Something like a 40% of americans couldnt scrounge up 400 dollars for an emergency bill.

On the other hand the average joe couldnt tell you how many hours a physician works or how many years of training they endure to get to where they are.

There is also a building resentment amongst the general public regarding the state of our healthcare system, when crowdfunding becomes a strategy to fund medical expenses and many people have horror stories of being handed exorbitant bills regarding care even when they have insurance. It is easy to see why people would jump to blame the physician rolling out of the hospital in the M5, who they may perceive as someone benefiting from our system.
 
@libertyyne

Some people can be tone death... Conversation about expensive things should happen in the physician's lounge.


By the way, do we work a lot more hours than the general public? It seems like most professionals I know are working 40+ hrs and are not making 100k+/year
 
Splenda88 said:
@libertyyne

Some people can be tone death... Conversation about expensive things should happen in the physician's lounge.


By the way, do we work a lot more hours than the general public? It seems like most professionals I know are working 40+ hrs and are not making 100k+/year
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I agree most of the people that are hitting 100K plus are grinding it out.
 
Splenda88 said:
@libertyyne

Some people can be tone death... Conversation about expensive things should happen in the physician's lounge.


By the way, do we work a lot more hours than the general public? It seems like most professionals I know are working 40+ hrs and are not making 100k+/year
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Depends on the field. There are people out there working 80 hour weeks for peanuts and people raking it in working less than 40. But yeah, most professional degree holders are probably grinding.
 
Splenda88 said:
I had a couple encounters this week in which family members straight out told me doctors care more about money and prestige than taking care of patients. I tried to tell them that based on my experience as a physician, the overwhelming majority of physicians love what they do, and care deeply about their patients.

They both went on a rant about how docs are aloof to the problem of the common folks. Why do the general public have that kind of sentiment about us? I don't get it because most of the docs I have worked with are genuine people who care about the wellbeing of their patients
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It's a perception that has been going on for at least 25 years, and led to the introduction of the required competencies, of which 5/6 are humanistic domains.

The HMO business model does nothing to help the image of doctors.
 
Splenda88 said:
@libertyyne

Some people can be tone death... Conversation about expensive things should happen in the physician's lounge.


By the way, do we work a lot more hours than the general public? It seems like most professionals I know are working 40+ hrs and are not making 100k+/year
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I do believe that investing in yourself early in life should pay off generously.
Why should an 18 yo college kid work hard through prime years to get into a strong MD school, where they continued grinding it out relentlessly to match into a competitive residency program (after which they have earned many more years of hard work in residency and fellowship)?
One hour of this kind of person's work should be exponentially more valuable than an ordinary persons, and that is why simply comparing hours worked is not a good comparison.

Furthermore the skill is different. You can work repetitive jobs for 100 hours a week. But if the higher order level of reasoning and level of risk is not there, you should not be compensated any where close per hour.
 
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PhillyMed777 said:
I do believe that investing in yourself early in life should pay off generously.
Why should an 18 yo college kid work hard through prime years to get into a strong MD school, where they continued grinding it out relentlessly to match into a competitive residency program (after which they have earned many more years of hard work in residency and fellowship)?
One hour of this kind of person's work should be exponentially more valuable than an ordinary persons, and that is why simply comparing hours worked is not a good comparison.
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Unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way.
 
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Goro said:
They'll be good for shots and sniffles, but when they screw up, then their patients will be screaming for a doctor.
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All you have to do to see that this is true is go look at mid level forums and see how many threads there are on what to say when a patient tells them they want to see a real doctor.
 
libertyyne said:
Many physicians are aloof to what the average joe has to deal with just like many average joes have no idea about the trials and tribulations impacting physicians.

Here is an example: My wife and I have experienced many situations where attending physicians are talking/ complaining about problems with their second house, luxury car, or expensive vacation to ancillary staff at the hospital that are making 15 dollars an hour. Comes off as tone deaf. That employee is just trying to stay afloat , and keep a roof of their heads while hoping their car doesnt break down this month. Something like a 40% of americans couldnt scrounge up 400 dollars for an emergency bill.

On the other hand the average joe couldnt tell you how many hours a physician works or how many years of training they endure to get to where they are.

There is also a building resentment amongst the general public regarding the state of our healthcare system, when crowdfunding becomes a strategy to fund medical expenses and many people have horror stories of being handed exorbitant bills regarding care even when they have insurance. It is easy to see why people would jump to blame the physician rolling out of the hospital in the M5, who they may perceive as someone benefiting from our system.
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It takes a lot of natural talent and strong work ethic to become a physician. The vast majority of people don't have either or just have one (with talent being the more important factor). Same for anything in life where you want success.

How many people have what it takes? Most do not. Heck, people can barely commit to just going to the gym. How could they grind through a decade of school and training? Or open a business and put in the 100 hour weeks to make it succeed.
When you don't have "it", then you're destined to be at best a very average person. And depending on your personality, you'll be jealous of those who made it.

As a side note, of that 40% - how many don't smoke or drink regularly or spend money on things they don't need? And to go a step further, how many had kids they couldn't afford?
You quickly see that it's usually (not always, I know) people who made poor decisions who go onto have consequences.
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way.
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Our income is because we provide a highly skilled and valuable service. Not because of the years we put into it, even though that's the reason everyone references. It's also why we should earn a lot more than a worker doing 90 hour weeks.
 
MedicineZ0Z said:
It takes a lot of natural talent and strong work ethic to become a physician. The vast majority of people don't have either or just have one (with talent being the more important factor). Same for anything in life where you want success.

How many people have what it takes? Most do not. Heck, people can barely commit to just going to the gym. How could they grind through a decade of school and training? Or open a business and put in the 100 hour weeks to make it succeed.
When you don't have "it", then you're destined to be at best a very average person. And depending on your personality, you'll be jealous of those who made it.

As a side note, of that 40% - how many don't smoke or drink regularly or spend money on things they don't need? And to go a step further, how many had kids they couldn't afford?
You quickly see that it's usually (not always, I know) people who made poor decisions who go onto have consequences.

Our income is because we provide a highly skilled and valuable service. Not because of the years we put into it, even though that's the reason everyone references. It's also why we should earn a lot more than a worker doing 90 hour weeks.
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We are currently in a losing battle by administrators and government to devalue our skill set by allowing mid levels who cost cheaper to take over some of that skill set that was once reserved for physicians.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
It doesn't help that, if not a majority then at least a sizable minority, of physicians are jerks.
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That has not been my experience...I know I have been around docs for only ~4 years (ms3/4 and as a resident) but so I far the vast majority of docs I have interacted with are normal individuals.
 
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Splenda88 said:
That has not been my experience...I know I have been around docs for ~4 years (ms3/4 and as a resident) but so I far the vast majority of docs I have interacted with are normal individuals.
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Give it time.
 
MedicineZ0Z said:
Our income is because we provide a highly skilled and valuable service. Not because of the years we put into it, even though that's the reason everyone references. It's also why we should earn a lot more than a worker doing 90 hour weeks.
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That still doesn’t always translate unfortunately. I don’t think physician salaries should be lowered for multiple reasons, but there are industries where people with valuable skills are paid ****. That’s all I was responding to.
 
Jee I wonder why they think that. Maybe they’ve gone to one of those pill mills that seem to exist at least everywhere in Florida to be seen for 5 mins where the doc obviously only cared about $$$?
 
libertyyne said:
Many physicians are aloof to what the average joe has to deal with just like many average joes have no idea about the trials and tribulations impacting physicians.

Here is an example: My wife and I have experienced many situations where attending physicians are talking/ complaining about problems with their second house, luxury car, or expensive vacation to ancillary staff at the hospital that are making 15 dollars an hour. Comes off as tone deaf. That employee is just trying to stay afloat , and keep a roof of their heads while hoping their car doesnt break down this month. Something like a 40% of americans couldnt scrounge up 400 dollars for an emergency bill.
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You hit the nail on the head. One of the experiences I wrote about in my PS back when I was applying was about my experience at a free health clinic. A 'generous' urologist donated his time, showed up an hour late, talked about his vacation home Tampa in front of patients who had NOTHING, and then complained in public until he was given the go ahead to leave early so he could catch his kid's medical school award ceremony. But before he left, he made sure to call a patient an idiot after he asked him if he had prostate cancer. "You're an idiot, I screened you at one of these things last month. You're fine". The guy lost his dad to prostate cancer, but he didn't give a ****.

Unfortunately, there are more than a handful in my class alone who will carry on the tradition of being a jerk.
 
tulip81 said:
You hit the nail on the head. One of the experiences I wrote about in my PS back when I was applying was about my experience at a free health clinic. A 'generous' urologist donated his time, showed up an hour late, talked about his vacation home Tampa in front of patients who had NOTHING, and then complained in public until he was given the go ahead to leave early so he could catch his kid's medical school award ceremony. But before he left, he made sure to call a patient an idiot after he asked him if he had prostate cancer. "You're an idiot, I screened you at one of these things last month. You're fine". The guy lost his dad to prostate cancer, but he didn't give a ****.

Unfortunately, there are more than a handful in my class alone who will carry on the tradition of being a jerk.
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So the guy had already been screened for free a month earlier and was hording a very finite and valuable resource by taking yet another rare free urology slot?

No need to name call but the patient was out of line
 
sb247 said:
So the guy had already been screened for free a month earlier and was hording a very finite and valuable resource by taking yet another rare free urology slot?

No need to name call but the patient was out of line
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That's a valid point. However, there are things in life that we want to say and then there are things in life that we need to say. Part of being a decent human being is staying on the proper side of that not so vague line. One could say that the second evaluation may not have happened had the doctor took a few minutes to explain some facts, given his worries and family history.

Nevertheless, his incessant bragging alone put him in the "I never want to be like this guy" category.
 
tulip81 said:
That's a valid point. However, there are things in life that we want to say and then there are things in life that we need to say. Part of being a decent human being is staying on the proper side of that not so vague line. One could say that the second evaluation may not have happened had the doctor took a few minutes to explain some facts, given his worries and family history.

Nevertheless, his incessant bragging alone put him in the "I never want to be like this guy" category.
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There were definitely 2 wrong people there for very different reasons and with very different levels of understandability
 
Splenda88 said:
He kind of appears ambivalent about it... by prefacing it with his first statement
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That wasn’t the impression I got. It seemed to me like he was pointing out why that patient wasn’t just an innocent victim of an dingus doc. The patient needed to hear he is being unreasonable and shouldn’t be taking valuable free clinic visits away from patients who might actually need them. But there are professional ways to do that.
 
tulip81 said:
You hit the nail on the head. One of the experiences I wrote about in my PS back when I was applying was about my experience at a free health clinic. A 'generous' urologist donated his time, showed up an hour late, talked about his vacation home Tampa in front of patients who had NOTHING, and then complained in public until he was given the go ahead to leave early so he could catch his kid's medical school award ceremony. But before he left, he made sure to call a patient an idiot after he asked him if he had prostate cancer. "You're an idiot, I screened you at one of these things last month. You're fine". The guy lost his dad to prostate cancer, but he didn't give a ****.

Unfortunately, there are more than a handful in my class alone who will carry on the tradition of being a jerk.
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Anecdotally, one doc sucked so everyone does?
 
Try explaining to patients how doctors are so caring when they're waiting 45 minutes past their appointment time only to see a rushed doctor come in, appearing to spend more time on the computer than them, and then trying to rush out by 5-10 minutes in.

It's not rocket surgery, folks.
 
CherryRedDracul said:
Try explaining to patients how doctors are so caring when they're waiting 45 minutes past their appointment time only to see a rushed doctor come in, appearing to spend more time on the computer than them, and then trying to rush out by 5-10 minutes in.

It's not rocket surgery, folks.
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EMR is a joke... I don't know how PCP can see 25+ patients in 8 hrs.
 
Apparently a significant percentage of Americans associates Corona the beer with the new coronavirus.

We have to find satisfaction within ourselves. In a field like ours with such drastic information asymmetry, there's no way we can rely on deriving it from laypeople's opinions.

Pilots are a common comparison, and people revere pilots, but by and large, planes don't crash. Patients die despite our best efforts, and we have little control over the expense our care generates.
 
longhaul3 said:
Apparently a significant percentage of Americans associates Corona the beer with the new coronavirus.

We have to find satisfaction within ourselves. In a field like ours with such drastic information asymmetry, there's no way we can rely on deriving it from laypeople's opinions.

Pilots are a common comparison, and people revere pilots, but by and large, planes don't crash. Patients die despite our best efforts, and we have little control over the expense our care generates.
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I don’t like the pilot analogies.

Pilots fly healthy people on elective flights. If someone is sick, or they have even the slightest concern their is an issue with the aircraft, they will NOT take off.

Contrast that with medicine. Our patients are sick, otherwise they wouldn’t be seeing us. Some people might even be near death. Then we take them to the OR and make them even sicker, i.e. cut their abdomen open, which would be considered attempted homicide if taken place outside of a hospital.

In summary, pilots take healthy patients and keep them as far away from death as possible. Physicians take sick and dying patients and bring them even closer to death in hopes of saving, or more accurately prolonging their life.
 
CherryRedDracul said:
Try explaining to patients how doctors are so caring when they're waiting 45 minutes past their appointment time only to see a rushed doctor come in, appearing to spend more time on the computer than them, and then trying to rush out by 5-10 minutes in.

It's not rocket surgery, folks.
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When there are lawyers that are more hungry, the corporations that want you to see a patient in 5-10 minutes and worries about the bottom line.... Guess what thats what you are gonna get. I am sorry medicine as a profession is headed down the wrong path.... And guess what patients are gonna see nurses instead of doctors because its more profitable.
 
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longhaul3 said:
Apparently a significant percentage of Americans associates Corona the beer with the new coronavirus.

We have to find satisfaction within ourselves. In a field like ours with such drastic information asymmetry, there's no way we can rely on deriving it from laypeople's opinions.

Pilots are a common comparison, and people revere pilots, but by and large, planes don't crash. Patients die despite our best efforts, and we have little control over the expense our care generates.
Click to expand...

This is part of the problem. Back before the ACA I had some pretty lousy insurance with surprise 'gotchas!' and loopholes. (You know, the kinds of bare bones policies Trump is trying to bring back.) So when I'd ask my physician what kind of costs to expect for this test or that procedure and they clearly had no clue (and didn't seem to find that problematic), that created the perception that they didn't really care about me or my financial realities. Years later, I now understand why they don't know and couldn't tell me, but the disconnect really doesn't help.

Edited to add:

I would have been very satisfied with an answer that went something like this: "My charges for this procedure are about $$$, but then that gets marked way up by the hospital, then way down by the insurance company, and the portion of that amount you pay depends on your deductibles and co-pays -- so unfortunately, there's really no way I can tell you what your costs will be."

When I get any questions about the rates I charge, my stock answer is that: "The last time I brought my car into the dealership for repairs, the hourly rate for the mechanic was $$. My accountant bills me at $$$/hour and my lawyer bills me at $$$$. So I think my rates are in line." I never get any push-back after that.
 
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MedicineZ0Z said:
It takes a lot of natural talent and strong work ethic to become a physician. The vast majority of people don't have either or just have one (with talent being the more important factor). Same for anything in life where you want success.

How many people have what it takes? Most do not. Heck, people can barely commit to just going to the gym. How could they grind through a decade of school and training? Or open a business and put in the 100 hour weeks to make it succeed.
When you don't have "it", then you're destined to be at best a very average person. And depending on your personality, you'll be jealous of those who made it.

As a side note, of that 40% - how many don't smoke or drink regularly or spend money on things they don't need? And to go a step further, how many had kids they couldn't afford?
You quickly see that it's usually (not always, I know) people who made poor decisions who go onto have consequences.

Our income is because we provide a highly skilled and valuable service. Not because of the years we put into it, even though that's the reason everyone references. It's also why we should earn a lot more than a worker doing 90 hour weeks.
Click to expand...
What talent? It takes a 500 to gain an acceptance to medical school these days.

Yes physicians work hard and train long, but many professions do. This just further makes the point of being aloof to how the rest of america lives.

Yes a valuable service is provided, and no where did i say physicians shouldnt be compensated well.

40% couldnt afford 400 dollars and 60% couldnt afford 1000 dollars. Even ignoring the fact that smoking rates are lower compared to generations in the past, and etoh consumption is also lower, so are teen pregnancies, and people are waiting later and later to have kids. It doesnt matter , the point is when you are talking about vacation houses and complaining about them to people who make 15 dollars an hour, dont be surprised if people think you have no idea how the average american lives.

Maybe , just maybe this sentiment of writing off whole swaths of the population as alchoholics who are having multiple children is part of the reason why people think physicians are out of touch.


wages have been stagnant for a long time and housing as well as education and healthcare expenses have outstripped inflation and any wage growth.
 
@libertyyne

I always laugh at these threads who assume that if you are a doc, you could have been successful making 300k+/yr in most professions...

I have 2 engineer (software and civil) friends who could have gotten to med school had they pursued a career in medicine... The one that is a software engineer is doing good (~130k/yr) after being a software engineer for close to 10 yrs. The civil engineer one is still making <90k/yr and he also has been an engineer for 10 yrs.

They both get terrified when economists are talking about recession.
 
libertyyne said:
What talent? It takes a 500 to gain an acceptance to medical school these days.

Yes physicians work hard and train long, but many professions do. This just further makes the point of being aloof to how the rest of america lives.

Yes a valuable service is provided, and no where did i say physicians shouldnt be compensated well.

40% couldnt afford 400 dollars and 60% couldnt afford 1000 dollars. Even ignoring the fact that smoking rates are lower compared to generations in the past, and etoh consumption is also lower, so are teen pregnancies, and people are waiting later and later to have kids. It doesnt matter , the point is when you are talking about vacation houses and complaining about them to people who make 15 dollars an hour, dont be surprised if people think you have no idea how the average american lives.

Maybe , just maybe this sentiment of writing off whole swaths of the population as alchoholics who are having multiple children is part of the reason why people think physicians are out of touch.


wages have been stagnant for a long time and housing as well as education and healthcare expenses have outstripped inflation and any wage growth.
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Lol you drastically overestimate the ability of the average person. You do realize the average man/woman wouldn't ever be able to even get a non-science degree right? Let alone pass a freshman premed course. Let alone do even remotely well, despite brutal studying. There are tons of kids/teens/young adults who do very intense tutoring and study relentlessly yet come nowhere close to a half decent grade even in more moderate science classes.
Even as you move above the scale to those who are above-average; they still heavily struggle. Hence why kids of doctors make up a huge cohort of those at Carib schools.
Ultimately, real boards do people in and expose lack of actual intelligence.

You've been surrounded by smart people your whole life and hence the idea that (most) people would be literally incapable of even passing 1 single med school test seems shocking to you. So yes, talent and natural smarts are an absolute requirement for success in ANY field.

As for your other points - rates of those things have gone down among younger folks but the older ones still do it. And why don't you dissect the reasons behind why those people can't afford things. Do you REALLY think everyone saves up every dollar they absolutely don't need to spend?

Splenda88 said:
@libertyyne

I always laugh at these threads who assume that if you are a doc, you could have been successful making 300k+/yr in most professions...

I have 2 engineer (software and civil) friends who could have gotten to med school had they pursued a career in medicine... The one that is a software engineer is doing good (~130k/yr) after being a software engineer for close to 10 yrs. The civil engineer one is still making <90k/yr and he also has been an engineer for 10 yrs.

They both get terrified when economists are talking about recession.
Click to expand...

I mean you need more than just smarts and hard work for medicine. Also need the personality type that can handle all the crap we do. There's a baseline level of intelligence you need to make it in medicine. Same applies to engineering. Beyond that, people's talents will vary and being smart in X = / = Y.
 
MedicineZ0Z said:
Lol you drastically overestimate the ability of the average person. You do realize the average man/woman wouldn't ever be able to even get a non-science degree right? Let alone pass a freshman premed course. Let alone do even remotely well, despite brutal studying. There are tons of kids/teens/young adults who do very intense tutoring and study relentlessly yet come nowhere close to a half decent grade even in more moderate science classes.
Even as you move above the scale to those who are above-average; they still heavily struggle. Hence why kids of doctors make up a huge cohort of those at Carib schools.
Ultimately, real boards do people in and expose lack of actual intelligence.

You've been surrounded by smart people your whole life and hence the idea that (most) people would be literally incapable of even passing 1 single med school test seems shocking to you. So yes, talent and natural smarts are an absolute requirement for success in ANY field.

As for your other points - rates of those things have gone down among younger folks but the older ones still do it. And why don't you dissect the reasons behind why those people can't afford things. Do you REALLY think everyone saves up every dollar they absolutely don't need to spend?



I mean you need more than just smarts and hard work for medicine. Also need the personality type that can handle all the crap we do. There's a baseline level of intelligence you need to make it in medicine. Same applies to engineering. Beyond that, people's talents will vary and being smart in X = / = Y.
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Oh please. It doesnt require much more than average intelligence to get a 500 on the MCAT.
70% of high school graduates enroll in college, 60% of those graduate within 6 years. so 35% of the population. The average GPA is 3.1.

It may be shocking to you but everyone does not want to be a doctor. Plenty of intelligent people in all sorts of fields including blue collar work. I know this because my family, their friends were all blue collar. I worked blue collar jobs.

Your post is literally an example of unfounded arrogance that the general public has associated with physicians.

And instead of thinking , hmm 60% of ALL americans cant afford a 1000 dollar unexpected bill you go on some tangent of personal responsibility, all the while ignoring the fact that healthcare costs, college costs and housing costs have skyrocketed and not kept up with wage growth. Maybe , just maybe, if a majority of people are having difficulty you should think that there is something systematically wrong with our society that is placing people in that situation.
 
For a small % of people who attended 'elite' undergrads, yes, there are more (eventually) lucrative options than medicine. Several of my premed classmates went to McKinsey or finance instead of applying. But for the most part, medicine is one of the most secure ways to a steady, high paying salary.

Anyway I think it's fairly simple. In the US, there's a lot of stress associated with healthcare delivery for patients, cost being foremost, delayed appointments etc. The 'product' that they get for their trouble doesn't seem great - not much facetime, rushed etc. Doctors are the face of medicine, they appear to be 'doing well' while others are struggling, thus - resentment.

My province (in Canada) decided to quit negotiations with doctors over payment, made unfavourable billing changes and the public seems to be on the doctors' side, some unions have expressed solidarity with them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
libertyyne said:
Oh please. It doesnt require much more than average intelligence to get a 500 on the MCAT.
70% of high school graduates enroll in college, 60% of those graduate within 6 years. so 35% of the population. The average GPA is 3.1.

It may be shocking to you but everyone does not want to be a doctor. Plenty of intelligent people in all sorts of fields including blue collar work. I know this because my family, their friends were all blue collar. I worked blue collar jobs.

Your post is literally an example of unfounded arrogance that the general public has associated with physicians.

And instead of thinking , hmm 60% of ALL americans cant afford a 1000 dollar unexpected bill you go on some tangent of personal responsibility, all the while ignoring the fact that healthcare costs, college costs and housing costs have skyrocketed and not kept up with wage growth. Maybe , just maybe, if a majority of people are having difficulty you should think that there is something systematically wrong with our society that is placing people in that situation.
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You're jumping around with random numbers, connecting them and pretending that it makes your point. 70% of high school graduates enroll in college, okay what majors? You realize like 15% of degrees awarded are in STEM fields right? Which have lower average GPAs than 3.1. You literally have to be well above average just to get into and obtain a STEM degree, let alone get a GPA that could get you into med school. Not to mention scoring above average on the MCAT.

You're literally taking gross numbers and the bottom 5th percentiles for med school entry and saying oh look! You can be stupid and get into med school!

Anyway, I never said that there aren't smart people in blue collar fields. Or that talent alone is all it takes to succeed in medicine. I simply said that it takes a pretty high level of intelligence, extreme work ethic and certain personality traits to make it all the way. Likewise for major success in any field.

And yes median wages haven't gone up as much as they should have. But they still have gone up and it's been fact checked repeatedly that the notion that inflation adjusted wages haven't risen at all is completely false. Healthcare costs are an issue due to administrative burden. College costs are indeed a major issue. Making it free isn't a solution and is a crime to the tax payer.

Anyway, you still didn't address my point. Nothing is stopping a single person at a young age from getting a job and/or more skills for upward mobility AND saving/investing all of their excess money along the way. Maybe address the real problem, where people should prepare ahead of time before they're put into a situation where they can't afford a 1k bill?
 
MedicineZ0Z said:
You're literally taking gross numbers and the bottom 5th percentiles for med school entry and saying oh look! You can be stupid and get into med school!
Click to expand...

There was a thing on here and reddit somewhere that correlated ACT scores to the MCAT, and the correlation was pretty much the same as the correlation between the MCAT and step 1. The average ACT is a 20, and with that data it would be around a 505 plus or minus. If you read the AAMC data, there really is no difference in success in med school once you get over a 500.

So I mean it really isn’t that the average person couldn’t do it, because clearly they could. It’s that they don’t want to for various reasons. It’s a really long training pipeline that is arduous for many reasons. The hours are long. You see people at their absolute worst. Etc etc.

There are plenty of reasons why not everyone is cut out for medicine, but you don’t have to be a genius—or even above average—to do it.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
There was a thing on here and reddit somewhere that correlated ACT scores to the MCAT, and the correlation was pretty much the same as the correlation between the MCAT and step 1. The average ACT is a 20, and with that data it would be around a 505 plus or minus. If you read the AAMC data, there really is no difference in success in med school once you get over a 500.

So I mean it really isn’t that the average person couldn’t do it, because clearly they could. It’s that they don’t want to for various reasons. It’s a really long training pipeline that is arduous for many reasons. The hours are long. You see people at their absolute worst. Etc etc.

There are plenty of reasons why not everyone is cut out for medicine, but you don’t have to be a genius—or even above average—to do it.
Click to expand...
Sure, post the link.

This type of bringing ourselves down 20 levels is another reason why we're run over by non-physicians. Go tell a nurse that you don't have to be insanely smart to get through nursing school and they'll report you for harassment. but medicine? pfft, anyone can do it.

Anyway, post the link dude.
 
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