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Just saw this nonsense on reddit
Oh hell to the no!
Totally agree - there are plenty of properly trained nurses out there, they just have to pay enough. They have a tough job and are probably underpaid by too many places, so these places need to pay them what they're worth during a surge. The rate limiting step at many hospitals for ICU care of COVID patients is appropriate nursing. Supply and demand...The hospital just have to hand over more money. Everyone has a price.
If I was not needed on the floors, and they paid me the same I would do it. Why the hell not? Are we so above and beyond that we can’t help and pitch in on other ways?
No matter how much you pay them, right now, there aren’t enough of them. You guys realize that systems are literally overwhelmed no?Totally agree - there are plenty of properly trained nurses out there, they just have to pay enough. They have a tough job and are probably underpaid by too many places, so these places need to pay them what they're worth during a surge. The rate limiting step at many hospitals for ICU care of COVID patients is appropriate nursing. Supply and demand...
Plus, having a doctor function as a nurse is a fraught with issues. Honestly we aren't trained to be nurses and we don't know their workflows and processes very well. There is a LOT to their jobs that we don't know about and a good nurse brings high value to the system.
In a pinch maybe we can wing it with some extra training, but it's just not the best approach. The best approach is to pay them what they're worth (which right now is quite a lot)!
No matter how much you pay them, right now, there aren’t enough of them. You guys realize that systems are literally overwhelmed no?
It’s a giant swap game. Nurses trade out and go somewhere else, hospital brings in travelers. Makes no sense. We know they can pay these crazy fees because they pay travelers. Idiotic.Plenty of people leaving my neck of the woods to become travelers.
During our surge, they wouldn’t pay “crazy” money, at the same time mandated nurses to work overtime. Lastly, at end of the 4 months, the nurse union finally got the hospital to agree to hazard pay. IIRC, after tax, it was a lousy $300 for the whole time. It works out to be like $1 per hour worked.
I cannot advocate nurses to take more shifts, nor can I advocate my colleagues to take on any nursing work. Especially like you said, if the cRNas cannot work as RNs, there’s something very very very wrong with the picture.
Right. It doesn't diminish your role as a doctor - it's simply supplementing it during those times when you're not one. But it would require a hefty premium; certainly more than I make as a physician.I have my price. If they pay it, I’ll happily do whatever they tell me... But it won’t be cheap. Money talks
I think there's a big difference between "working as a nurse" and doing some "nursing work". Most of the tasks listed above I've done at one time or another, or continue to do.Surgeons-in-training learn important skills to back up key allies during the coronavirus pandemic nurses
Surgical residents at USC medical centers have embraced being trained for nursing duties as part of caring for COVID-19 patients.news.usc.edu
We also have plenty IMGs working as nurses
I've recently done more nursing stuff (IV, blood draw, ABGs, drip titration, BiPAP set up, Foleys, EKGs, bladder scan, pt triaging especially ambulances, EMS triage, splinting, pushing pt to imaging...) just cause of workload, slow staff
Sometimes you gotta do it if want it done fast and accurate
Agreed 100%. And the CRNPs and the CRNAs. For sure. Quite frankly, if they refuse, fire them.Empty the hospital admin. wings that are full of perfectly capable ex-nurses who are now sitting in offices doing non-productive bureaucratic make-work. Also, enlist all the clipboard wielding JCAHO and other gov't worker types doing nonsense work. That could provide a massive potential infusion of much need help.
You mean like eliminating the incredibly onerous charting requirements for doctors, and suspending malpractice at least for Covid-19 patients, which haven't happened in 10 months of pandemic?How about eliminating all the incredibly onerous charting requirements so that our nurses, who are managing as many as 8 patients each, can actually be nurses. (ie: now's a good time for major tort reform).
You mean like eliminating the incredibly onerous charting requirements for doctors, and suspending malpractice at least for Covid-19 patients, which haven't happened in 10 months of pandemic?
Don't hold your breath.
Every state has its malpractice rules for Covid. Some states are better than others in suspending them. Good thing TX malpractice is pretty good to begin with.Malpractice was suspended in New York
Agreed.Something I haven’t seen brought up in this forum is the medico-legal implications of physicians working as nurses.
If you carry out the orders of another physician and there’s a bad outcome and patient/family sue, you better believe they’re coming for you. Even if you’re practicing outside of scope, to the patients lawyer MD/DO = $$$.
You mean like eliminating the incredibly onerous charting requirements for doctors, and suspending malpractice at least for Covid-19 patients, which haven't happened in 10 months of pandemic?
Don't hold your breath.
What charting requirements for anesthesiologists are overly onerous? I chart exactly what i want to and it takes about 3 min per case.
There aren’t enough travel nurses period.Hard pass. The hospital isn't doing that because they're worried about a surge. They're doing it because they'd rather repurpose their existing staff rather than pony up for actual nurses. Back during the initial surge then maybe. But after going through another surge and seeing how hospitals have the ability to properly prepare there's no reason for this.
"Substantial pay" is such a fallacy. Travel nurses get $100-$150/hr now. That's less than what most physicians make. Makes no sense that they'd pay you more than they can hire a travel nurse for.
Correction* There aren't enough travel nurses willing to work for "normal" base nursing wages. They figure, and rightfully so, if they are going to travel and bust their asses in a new system, that they should be paid accordingly.There aren’t enough travel nurses period.
How do you know this for a fact? Where do you think all these travel nurses come from? Are they sitting at home twiddling their thumbs or something?Correction* There aren't enough travel nurses willing to work for "normal" base nursing wages. They figure, and rightfully so, if they are going to travel and bust their asses in a new system, that they should be paid accordingly.
And they would come back and work with those Covid patients they were trying to avoid?Maybe you should take a step back and realize that you're not familiar with everyone's mindset. There are plenty of people that took themselves out of the workforce because they don't want to catch covid or are just fed up with the bs. I personally know some that are staying at home rather than working.
Where do travel nurses come from?How do you know this for a fact? Where do you think all these travel nurses come from? Are they sitting at home twiddling their thumbs or something?
When hospitals are used to operating under capacity, and now are bursting at the seams and putting tents outside, where do they find these RNs just waiting for a payday?
Try and think practically here instead of imagining some magical extra pool of nurses that don’t exist.
And the whole point of traveling is to make more money as you explore the world. That’s how the travel nursing industry works. So unless you live and work in CA which has some of the best salaries in the US, you are going to make more money when you travel.
What is “perma?”Where do travel nurses come from?
1) PACU nurses which staff 6 nurses to watch 8 patients - 4 are perma on instagram
2) Pre-op nurses which staff 5 nurses for 10 bays - 2 are perma updating their facebook status
3) Floor nurses that decide they would rather earn 4x their weekly wages and take an assignment to NYC or LA
4) Not every part of the US is hit equally. Plenty of "less" overhelmed hospital systems that have nursing to spare.
If I were a young nurses with no significant other limitations, I would perma travel in this covid climate. The demand is there. Use that to your advantage like any other field would do and make bank. I've even seen nurses quit their perm employment to be rehired as travel nurses 2 weeks later at 2-3x the rate in my institution. Money talks.
There aren’t enough travel nurses period.
Where do travel nurses come from?
1) PACU nurses which staff 6 nurses to watch 8 patients - 4 are perma on instagram
2) Pre-op nurses which staff 5 nurses for 10 bays - 2 are perma updating their facebook status
3) Floor nurses that decide they would rather earn 4x their weekly wages and take an assignment to NYC or LA
4) Not every part of the US is hit equally. Plenty of "less" overhelmed hospital systems that have nursing to spare.
If I were a young nurses with no significant other limitations, I would perma travel in this covid climate. The demand is there. Use that to your advantage like any other field would do and make bank. I've even seen nurses quit their perm employment to be rehired as travel nurses 2 weeks later at 2-3x the rate in my institution. Money talks.
The working more would certainly help. Many are already doing that. But everyone has a limit on how much more theme can handle.I agree. In general i think we should have less government, however, the role for government exists when free markets break down. Right now is an example of hospitals not being able to afford to staff patient care appropriately. Supply will meet demand if wages are subsidized. There is supply left in the reserve. Many people have a price to work a little bit more. For instance, nurses working 40 hours may be willing to work 50 hours. This work isn’t free or cheap. It also alienates permanent staff when temporary workers are brought in for higher wages, less hours, and a list of demands with no leniency like defined work hours that permanent staff couldn’t even dream of. If the public wants appropriate care, it’s time to pay up for both temp workers and loyal permanent staff.
Where do travel nurses come from?
1) PACU nurses which staff 6 nurses to watch 8 patients - 4 are perma on instagram
2) Pre-op nurses which staff 5 nurses for 10 bays - 2 are perma updating their facebook status
3) Floor nurses that decide they would rather earn 4x their weekly wages and take an assignment to NYC or LA
4) Not every part of the US is hit equally. Plenty of "less" overhelmed hospital systems that have nursing to spare.
If I were a young nurses with no significant other limitations, I would perma travel in this covid climate. The demand is there. Use that to your advantage like any other field would do and make bank. I've even seen nurses quit their perm employment to be rehired as travel nurses 2 weeks later at 2-3x the rate in my institution. Money talks.
And they would come back and work with those Covid patients they were trying to avoid?
For somebody who states "There aren’t enough travel nurses period." as fact, it is quite funny to see you fact-check somebody else.How do you know this for a fact? Where do you think all these travel nurses come from? Are they sitting at home twiddling their thumbs or something?
When hospitals are used to operating under capacity, and now are bursting at the seams and putting tents outside, where do they find these RNs just waiting for a payday?
Try and think practically here instead of imagining some magical extra pool of nurses that don’t exist.
And the whole point of traveling is to make more money as you explore the world. That’s how the travel nursing industry works. So unless you live and work in CA which has some of the best salaries in the US, you are going to make more money when you travel.
My wife is a nurse who now works from home doing something else. If she got offered enough money, she would at least seriously consider it. So yeah, some of them.
I don’t have an institution. I go to multiple institutions and am seeing problems in more than one institution.For somebody who states "There aren’t enough travel nurses period." as fact, it is quite funny to see you fact-check somebody else.
Your institution being unable to hire more travel nurses =/= the absence of travel nurses. Many hospitals have an overflow of nurses on staff. If other hospitals offer enough money, they will have access to those nurses. Most nursing unions make it quite easy for nurses to go work elsewhere, unlike physicians.
Sure great. So has she made an attempt to reach out to agencies and been continuously lowballed?My wife is a nurse who now works from home doing something else. If she got offered enough money, she would at least seriously consider it. So yeah, some of them.
You have stated your opinion. Others have given examples to the contrary, yet you double down on your stance as it is a fact. It is not and things are different throughout the country. There are many motivations to work and things that may be sufficient for some, may be lacking for others. No need to beleaguer this topic. Agree to disagree.I don’t have an institution. I go to multiple institutions and am seeing problems in more than one institution.
It’s common sense quite frankly. Read and hear what these agencies are saying about not having enough nurses to dole out the past couple of months.
But yeah, they are all sitting at home waiting for a better payday because no one is paying them a fair wage. Right.