Postbac-MD or DO this year

[robertch8]

I think if the OP does not have the strongest academic foundation this one year will help him tremendously and he'll end up being extra prepared for his real M1 year. As a Master's student in a program with med school courses who will be matriculating to med school this fall, this can't be understated. Plus it seems like the standards are very easily attainable in the process. I have a friend in Temple ACMS and the 3.5 GPA is not much of a challenge; he told me that first semester courses are very easy. It's more of a matter if the OP can get a 30 on the MCAT. I'm not sure what the OP's MCAT score is but I think Temple ACMS would be the better choice unless the OP feels too insecure about getting the 30 on the MCAT then Drexel.

Plus, these post bac programs are very competitive to get in the first place so I completely understand the OP applying to DO schools alongside the postbac and MD schools.

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[Instatewaiter]

last time i checked tuition for dpms was 24k. so add onto that the expensive philly housing cost over a year...and you're looking at high 30s to low 40k in cost. No one said drexel students cannot match into academic programs. What I said was "Going to an LCME school is not a blank check for said programs" and this is absolutely true. The OP should not think that by going through the dpms, and managing a 3.0 and then start med school at Drexel that he/she will get automatically matched into an academic program. That's not how things work. Whether you go to an MD or a DO school, the OP will have to take the USMLE, get a great score and hope to match.

Just so we're clear Drexel does an excellent job matching people into competitive programs especially academic programs. Don't speak about things without actually looking stuff up. If you want to do academic medicine going to a DO school is not an ideal choice. A post-bac program is a risk no doubt but it's not as if it does not have its benefits.

Most strong residency programs are at academic centers. Most MD schools are going to give you vastly better options to match to one of these programs. Since Drexel seems to be under fire, let's compare drexel to some notable osteopathic schools using 2011 match lists:

PCOM strong academic center matches: none
DMU- Michigan and UTSW x 2
KCOM- JHH (self reported data and likely incomplete)

Let's compare this to Drexel:
Johns Hopkins Hospital
The Brigham (Harvard)
BIDMC (harvard) x2
MGH (Harvard)
Duke x3
UCSF
HUP (penn) x 7
Yale x 5
Columbia x3
Cornell
OHSU
Mt Sinai x4
NYU x 3
UVA x4
UCLA x 5

The comparison is obvious. So in the end, an extra year *may* not be too foolish of an idea if it gives you better options

 

[donkeykong1]

Just so we're clear Drexel does an excellent job matching people into competitive programs especially academic programs. Don't speak about things without actually looking stuff up. If you want to do academic medicine going to a DO school is not an ideal choice. A post-bac program is a risk no doubt but it's not as if it does not have its benefits.

Most strong residency programs are at academic centers. Most MD schools are going to give you vastly better options to match to one of these programs. Since Drexel seems to be under fire, let's compare drexel to some notable osteopathic schools using 2011 match lists:

PCOM strong academic center matches: none
DMU- Michigan and UTSW x 2
KCOM- JHH (self reported data and likely incomplete)

Let's compare this to Drexel:
Johns Hopkins Hospital
The Brigham (Harvard)
BIDMC (harvard) x2
MGH (Harvard)
Duke x3
UCSF
HUP (penn) x 7
Yale x 5
Columbia x3
Cornell
OHSU
Mt Sinai x4
NYU x 3
UVA x4
UCLA x 5

The comparison is obvious. So in the end, an extra year *may* not be too foolish of an idea if it gives you better options

Ok, there's no doubt those are strong matches. here's tourocom's match. I just picked that school for convenience sake since it was listed on the very first page of the thread in the oste forums. Much smaller class size and relatively new, but here are some notable matches:

UC Irvine

UPMC Pittsburgh

Baylor

UMDNJ-RW Johnson

Hershey Medical Center

Albert Einstein/Beth Israel

New York Medical College/Richmond University

Hofstra-North-Shore-LIJ (Manhasset)

SUNY Downstate

Cooper University Hospital

Thomas Jefferson University Hospital

NYU School of Medicine

Johns Hopkins Hospital

University of Maryland

Mt Sinai Hospital (nyc)

Indiana University

New York/Presbyterian/Columbia and Cornell

Emory University School of Medicine

Louisiana State University School of Medicine

Also Instatewaiter, i think we did this before in another thread. I agree with the difference in the middle of the class at an MD vs. a DO school that might cause the difference in match placement.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Ok, there's no doubt those are strong matches. here's tourocom's match. I just picked that school for convenience sake since it was listed on the very first page of the thread in the oste forums. Much smaller class size and relatively new, but here are some notable matches:

UC Irvine

UPMC Pittsburgh

Baylor

UMDNJ-RW Johnson
Hershey Medical Center
Albert Einstein/Beth Israel
New York Medical College/Richmond University
Hofstra-North-Shore-LIJ (Manhasset)
SUNY Downstate
Cooper University Hospital
Thomas Jefferson University Hospital
NYU School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins Hospital
University of Maryland
Mt Sinai Hospital (nyc)
Indiana University
New York/Presbyterian/Columbia and Cornell
Emory University School of Medicine
Louisiana State University School of Medicine

Also Instatewaiter, i think we did this before in another thread. I agree with the difference in the middle of the class at an MD vs. a DO school that might cause the difference in match placement.

https://sites.google.com/a/student.touro.edu/class_web/rotations-1/match-lists
First- I don't see basically any of those programs on their match list.

Second and more importantly, we were talking about strong academic programs. With the exception of maybe NYU, Cornell and JHH the rest on that list are ho-hum. Hershey medical center? LIJ? Beth israel (note this is not Beth Israel Deaconess) Come on.

Basically every other match in drexel's list was on par with or better than indiana which is why I didn't just copy and paste thier match list. http://webcampus.drexelmed.edu/cdc/2011-MatchList.asp


I'm done being diplomatic- In the end, it is mind-blowingly obvious that an MD school (even a "low tier" school like Drexel) will give you VASTLY better options for residency.I think it is A GOOD IDEA to exhaust your MD options if you are a borderline applicant. Doing a post bacc can completely change the trajectory of your career and life. You will never have the same kind of opportunities if you don't try and it is just stupid not to try.

 

[SLC]

I'm done being diplomatic- In the end, it is mind-blowingly obvious that an MD school (even a "low tier" school like Drexel) will give you VASTLY better options for residency. I think it is A GOOD IDEA to exhaust your MD options if you are a borderline applicant. Doing a post bacc can completely change the trajectory of your career and life. You will never have the same kind of opportunities if you don't try and it is just stupid not to try.

Tell us how you really feel!

And you can disagree, but the bolded is more than just a little sensational. While I don't disagree with the notion that MD will get you better access to highly coveted residencies. I'm not convinced that doing IM at Cornell and IM at say UNR is all that different at the end of the day. You're still an IM doc, with the same practice rights no matter where you go. And if you're like 99.99% of the IM docs out there, you're just going to go to work and see patients for the rest of your career either way.

Thanks for being "diplomatic" for so long though. I'm a little scared for the safety of the SND pre-Osteo forum now that you're "diplomacy" is spent though.

 

[Jamie561]

Tell us how you really feel!

And you can disagree, but the bolded is more than just a little sensational. While I don't disagree with the notion that MD will get you better access to highly coveted residencies. I'm not convinced that doing IM at Cornell and IM at say UNR is all that different at the end of the day. You're still an IM doc, with the same practice rights no matter where you go. And if you're like 99.99% of the IM docs out there, you're just going to go to work and see patients for the rest of your career either way.

Thanks for being "diplomatic" for so long though. I'm a little scared for the safety of the SND pre-Osteo forum now that you're "diplomacy" is spent though.

How about going Caribbean and getting IM in Montana? Same practice rights there too. We should obviously embrace the race to the bottom.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[SLC]

How about going Caribbean and getting IM in Montana? Same practice rights there too. We should obviously embrace the race to the bottom.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

Yeah, not what I implied; nor is it even similar. And when it comes right down to it, I think you know that. Well I hope you do anyway.

 

[DrMaximus]

This guys has enough answers now. This crap is just becoming MD vs DO like it always does with the typical competitors in their respective corners...

 

[Finches]

Yeah, not what I implied; nor is it even similar. And when it comes right down to it, I think you know that. Well I hope you do anyway.

Sorry to dash your hopes, but I don't get how it's not what you implied, nor how it isn't similar. Please explain why Caribbean schools are removed from your above logic.

 

[SLC]

Sorry to dash your hopes, but I don't get how it's not what you implied, nor how it isn't similar. Please explain why Caribbean schools are removed from your above logic.

Seriously?

1. We're talking about post graduate training, not medical school. That much is fairly obvious (I hope). You failed there.

2. UNR is not the bottom of the bottom, like Caribbean schools are, no comparison there. You failed again.

3. Caribbean grads are lucky to even graduate, even more lucky to obtain a residency of any kind anywhere at all. UNR and Cornell trained IM physicians are both just that at the end of their training, IM Physicians. There's nothing inherent to the more "sought after" program that gives the Cornell trained physician a larger scope of practice or anything like that. I understand why people would want to gun for the best spot possible for residency training; but the end of the day, UNR and Cornell docs both go to work doing the same things for same types of people and the same pay. Fail yet again.

I think you should explain how the caribbean analogy fits so well in your mind.

 

[cliquesh]

Seriously?

1. We're talking about post graduate training, not medical school. That much is fairly obvious (I hope). You failed there.

2. UNR is not the bottom of the bottom, like Caribbean schools are, no comparison there. You failed again.

3. Caribbean grads are lucky to even graduate, even more lucky to obtain a residency of any kind anywhere at all. UNR and Cornell trained IM physicians are both just that at the end of their training, IM Physicians. There's nothing inherent to the more "sought after" program that gives the Cornell trained physician a larger scope of practice or anything like that. I understand why people would want to gun for the best spot possible for residency training; but the end of the day, UNR and Cornell docs both go to work doing the same things for same types of people and the same pay. Fail yet again.

I think you should explain how the caribbean analogy fits so well in your mind.

I don't care enough to look, but I'd imagine the fellowship placement at cornell is better than urn, ie more cards, gi, and heme/onc. I think that's the major difference between a top tier program and a mid/low program. If you want to do private practice, I don't think it really matters where you do a cardiology fellowship, but you still have to match cardiology somewhere and it's easier if you go to a good residency and it's easier to get a good residency if you go to a good school. If you know you dont want to do a fellowship than it probably doesnt matter where you go as long as the training is decent.On a side note, there is a study that showed the average salary for radiologists that completed their residency at "low tier" programs had higher incomes than graduates from"upper tier" programs.

 

[SLC]

I don't care enough to look, but I'd imagine the fellowship placement at cornell is better than urn, ie more cards, gi, and heme/onc. I think that's the major difference between a top tier program and a mid/low program.

I definitely agree, and that's what I was getting at in my previous post when I said that I understood the desire to gun for the best spot possible. That being said, I'm talking about straight IM here, not IM fellowships. And I'm just using IM as an example, probably because that's what I'm most interested in right now.

On a side note, there is a study that showed the average salary for radiologists that completed their residency at "low tier" programs had higher income than graduates from"upper tier" programs.

My point (more or less) exactly.

I'm just trying to say that while it's nice to have goals, most physicians end up in very similar places when all is said and done regardless of where they went to medical school or residency. Getting into a top school/top residency is nice, but it isn't the be-all/end-all of anyone's career; despite what SDN may lead you to believe.

SLC

 

[cliquesh]

I'm just trying to say that while it's nice to have goals, most physicians end up in very similar places when all is said and done regardless of where they went to medical school or residency. Getting into a top school/top residency is nice, but it isn't the be-all/end-all of anyone's career; despite what SDN may lead you to believe.

SLC

Yea, I don't think it matters all that much where you go to school if you want to do primary care or less competitive fields of medicine, but if you want to do something competitive as a DO it can be heartbreaking. I have a friend who will graduate this year from a do school. He graduted near the top of his class, got a 260 something on the usmle, all honors 3rd year, had 8 pubs, applied to nearly 100 derm programs, was offered 3 interviews, and he did not match. He is now going to do a traditional rotating internship. I'm pretty sure he would have matched if he was a MD and his life would be completely different. Maybe he will match aoa derm one day, though.

 

[SLC]

Yea, I don't think it matters all that much where you go to school if you want to do primary care or less competitive fields of medicine, but if you want to do something competitive as a DO it can be heartbreaking. I have a friend who will graduate this year from a do school. He graduted near the top of his class, got a 260 something on the usmle, all honors 3rd year, had 8 pubs, applied to nearly 100 derm programs, was offered 3 interviews, and he did not match. He is now going to do a traditional rotating internship. I'm pretty sure he would have matched if he was an MD and his life would be completely different. Maybe he will match aoa derm one day, though.

Sounds like your friend should have looked into the recent history of DO's matching Allo-Derm. It sucks trying to match allo-Derm even if you're an MD grad. He/she likely would have slid right in there if they would have been realistic and done AOA in the first place. And at the end of it all, he/she would be doing the same thing as the allo-Derm grads.

Such a shame.

 

[cliquesh]

Sounds like your friend should have looked into the recent history of DO's matching Allo-Derm. It sucks trying to match allo-Derm even if you're an MD grad. He/she likely would have slid right in there if they would have been realistic and done AOA in the first place. And at the end of it all, he/she would be doing the same thing as the allo-Derm grads.

Such a shame.

yea, he is going to try aoa derm now. you do not match aoa derm during your 4th year unlike other aoa residencies. you apply to programs during pgy1.

 

[SLC]

yea, he is going to try aoa derm now. you do not match aoa derm during your 4th year unlike other aoa residencies. you apply to programs during pgy1.

Oh OK, this I didn't know. He'll probably be just fine then.

 

[Finches]

Seriously?

1. We're talking about post graduate training, not medical school. That much is fairly obvious (I hope). You failed there.

2. UNR is not the bottom of the bottom, like Caribbean schools are, no comparison there. You failed again.

3. Caribbean grads are lucky to even graduate, even more lucky to obtain a residency of any kind anywhere at all. UNR and Cornell trained IM physicians are both just that at the end of their training, IM Physicians. There's nothing inherent to the more "sought after" program that gives the Cornell trained physician a larger scope of practice or anything like that. I understand why people would want to gun for the best spot possible for residency training; but the end of the day, UNR and Cornell docs both go to work doing the same things for same types of people and the same pay. Fail yet again.

I think you should explain how the caribbean analogy fits so well in your mind.

Since I was following up to Gaystain's reply, I said "Caribbean schools" to mean the proposed scenario of a caribbean school grad doing IM in montana. I thought the context would carry over, since clearly, it makes no sense for me to bring up medical schools out of nowhere.

Your first two points thus don't apply. Thanks for telling me "I failed' just because we had a communication error.

Gaystain mentioned the caribbean grad who got into Montana's IM program. So the hardships you mention about caribbean students matching, again, no longer apply. In essence, we (you, me, Gaystains) are talking about Montana's IM program vs Cornell's vs. UNR, (with the first being attended by a Carib grad) in which case the situation IS similar.

 

[SLC]

Since I was following up to Gaystain's reply, I said "Caribbean schools" to mean the proposed scenario of a caribbean school grad doing IM in montana. I thought the context would carry over, since clearly, it makes no sense for me to bring up medical schools out of nowhere.

Your first two points thus don't apply. Thanks for telling me "I failed' just because we had a communication error.

Gaystain mentioned the caribbean grad who got into Montana's IM program. So the hardships you mention about caribbean students matching, again, no longer apply. In essence, we (you, me, Gaystains) are talking about Montana's IM program vs Cornell's vs. UNR, (with the first being attended by a Carib grad) in which case the situation IS similar.

First off, I can't find an Internal Medicine program in Montana. I can find ones in Washington that rotate in Montana, but none that are based in Montana.

Second, again a Caribbean student is lucky to be graduate, even more lucky to match to a residency. Not the same thing, and not at all what I implied.

 

[Finches]

First off, I can't find an Internal Medicine program in Montana. I can find ones in Washington that rotate in Montana, but none that are based in Montana.

Second, again a Caribbean student is lucky to be graduate, even more lucky to match to a residency. Not the same thing, and not at all what I implied.

*sigh*

First point is irrelevant to discussion; we're not discussing whether said program exists or not, but the hypothetical less-than-desirability of it.

Second, Gaystains mentioned a hypothetical situation of "going caribbean and GETTING the position in Montana", and subsequently having a "same scope of practice". The situation proposed assumes acceptance into residency.

Please don't be so ready to put down others or to be defensive just because they ask for clarification. I was confused because I expected your response to Gaystains to be, based on your views, as follows:

"It doesn't matter if the person graduates from caribbean and does IM in Montana, because in the end, he or she is also an IM doc and, like 99.99% of the IM docs out there, you're just going to go to work and see patients for the rest of your career either way."

To which I would have agreed.

 

[SLC]

I was confused because I expected your response to Gaystains to be, based on your views, as follows:

"It doesn't matter if the person graduates from caribbean and does IM in Montana, because in the end, he or she is also an IM doc and, like 99.99% of the IM docs out there, you're just going to go to work and see patients for the rest of your career either way."

To which I would have agreed.

Yes, an IM doc trained in Montana, Nevada, or NYC all have the same rights. And yes 99.99% (most) will simply practice IM for the remainder of their careers. This was the main point of my original post in this thread.

However Gaystain (and I assumed you based on your initial response) assumed that my implication meant that I thought everyone should then just aim for the bottom of the barrel. That was obviously not what I was saying with my post, and nobody should have read it that way. My whole point in this thread is that not everyone will get the "prestigious" residency. But those who don't, generally end up doing the same jobs in the same or similar places. (fellowship applications obviously excluded)

I merely take exception to Gaystain's implication that I think we should all gun for the bottom of the pile. I assumed you were making that accusation as well. Perhaps we both had a misunderstanding of eachother. It's the nature of the internet.

 

[donkeykong1]

https://sites.google.com/a/student.touro.edu/class_web/rotations-1/match-lists
First- I don't see basically any of those programs on their match list.

Second and more importantly, we were talking about strong academic programs. With the exception of maybe NYU, Cornell and JHH the rest on that list are ho-hum. Hershey medical center? LIJ? Beth israel (note this is not Beth Israel Deaconess) Come on.

Basically every other match in drexel's list was on par with or better than indiana which is why I didn't just copy and paste thier match list. http://webcampus.drexelmed.edu/cdc/2011-MatchList.asp


I'm done being diplomatic- In the end, it is mind-blowingly obvious that an MD school (even a "low tier" school like Drexel) will give you VASTLY better options for residency.I think it is A GOOD IDEA to exhaust your MD options if you are a borderline applicant. Doing a post bacc can completely change the trajectory of your career and life. You will never have the same kind of opportunities if you don't try and it is just stupid not to try.

Listen, all of those notable tourocom matches are at major academic centers. Just because they're not named hopkins, or brigham, does not make them any less academic. The difference in NIH funding is what sets the nyu, jhh, yales of the world... apart from the others.

Hershey Med center-Penn state
LIJ-Hofstra
Beth Israel-Albert Einstein college of medicine

Saying that that "an MD school (even a "low tier" school like Drexel) will give you VASTLY better options for residency" is an incomplete statement. Shooting for top programs has more to do with the individual than the school, if were talking about US grads.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Seriously?

2. UNR is not the bottom of the bottom, like Caribbean schools are, no comparison there. You failed again.

Actually it is a pretty crappy program. Notice that they can't even attract their own medical school grads to stay; that speaks volumes. There are 8 MDs from the states in the entire program. Of those, most are PGY1 prelims (ie chose the program because it is cush and then they leave). Everyone else is a foreign grad or a DO. That alone speaks a lot about the program. This is not a good program.

Listen, all of those notable tourocom matches are at major academic centers. Just because they're not named hopkins, or brigham, does not make them any less academic. The difference in NIH funding is what sets the nyu, jhh, yales of the world... apart from the others.

Hershey Med center-Penn state
LIJ-Hofstra
Beth Israel-Albert Einstein college of medicine

Saying that that "an MD school (even a "low tier" school like Drexel) will give you VASTLY better options for residency" is an incomplete statement. Shooting for top programs has more to do with the individual than the school, if were talking about US grads.

First, I didn't see almost any of those "notable" matches in the Tuorocom match list that i posted. Perhaps you have a different one.

More importantly, what you are considering notable just isn't on the MD side of the tracks. Those are pretty middle of the road matches. Look at Drexel's match list. You will see almost every one of those matches is at an equal or better program than Hershey, LIJ and Beth Israel. These aren't notable matches in the MD world. This highlights my point. An MD school is going to give you vastly better options. In these arguments, do you notice that no DO residents have chimed in that applying as a DO wasn't a liability? There is a reason for that. My point is this, chastizing someone for going through a post-bac to get into an MD school is ignoring the reality of how residency placement works.

 

[donkeykong1]

Actually it is a pretty crappy program. Notice that they can't even attract their own medical school grads to stay; that speaks volumes. There are 8 MDs from the states in the entire program. Of those, most are PGY1 prelims (ie chose the program because it is cush and then they leave). Everyone else is a foreign grad or a DO. That alone speaks a lot about the program. This is not a good program.



First, I didn't see almost any of those "notable" matches in the Tuorocom match list that i posted. Perhaps you have a different one.

More importantly, what you are considering notable just isn't on the MD side of the tracks. Those are pretty middle of the road matches. Look at Drexel's match list. You will see almost every one of those matches is at an equal or better program than Hershey, LIJ and Beth Israel. These aren't notable matches in the MD world. This highlights my point. An MD school is going to give you vastly better options. In these arguments, do you notice that no DO residents have chimed in that applying as a DO wasn't a liability? There is a reason for that. My point is this, chastizing someone for going through a post-bac to get into an MD school is ignoring the reality of how residency placement works.

i suspect the matchlist you're looking at is either incomplete, or programs are hidden after the TRI year.

secondly getting back to your bolded statement. this has more to do with the fact that those "residents" most likely self-selected themselves out of ranking a yale, hopkins, stanford program as #1 or 2 by realistically gauging their board scores. just an assumption. again reading matchlists is a double edged sword, you can't know for sure if the student matched into a #!1,2,3 choice. also its not chasitizing when one is letting the OP know of the risk they are taking by forgoing an acceptance to medical school for a chance at MD. once the OP turns down those 3 acceptances, the doors to those programs are shut forever. furthermore it might have repercussions at other DO programs as well since AACOMAS discloses app cycle info to all schools he/she applied to.

 

[donkeykong1]

Yea, I don't think it matters all that much where you go to school if you want to do primary care or less competitive fields of medicine, but if you want to do something competitive as a DO it can be heartbreaking. I have a friend who will graduate this year from a do school. He graduted near the top of his class, got a 260 something on the usmle, all honors 3rd year, had 8 pubs, applied to nearly 100 derm programs, was offered 3 interviews, and he did not match. He is now going to do a traditional rotating internship. I'm pretty sure he would have matched if he was a MD and his life would be completely different. Maybe he will match aoa derm one day, though.

matching ACGME derm as a DO is near impossible if you check the nmrp pdf. for MDs as well a 240+ and a prayer is required. he/she would have surely matched AOA derm.

 

[necronomicon]

I recognize that the OP mentioned "top-tier" programs...but why do these threads always resolve to the "only (insert minuscule number here) DO grads have placed at X school over the last 5 years?"

Really...who cares? Touche to those graduates from Drexel that went to JHH...and for the people from DMU who matched at Michigan. Clearly, all of these trainees will be much better physicians than those matching into mid-tier (whatever that means) programs. OMG, a DO matched at JHH, meaning he took an MD's spot. That MD should have gone DO!!!!!!

This bickering back and forth is way too prevalent. It is well known that many MD students consider DO to be a second-rate program, and many DO students feel the same way (hence, threads like this emerge). Albeit, there's no refuting that DO's--on occasion--match into terrific programs...and there's no refuting that MD's--generally speaking--have better odds matching into those terrific programs. If you know what you want and are willing to work hard enough (and are capable of achieving top grades, board scores, etc.) you will most likely be able to place into a program you want. If you can't get into your number one at Columbia or NYU due to the DO-bias, then be happy with your place at Baylor, UCLA or CCF. Congratulations, you all have the same training...but some can still proclaim, "but, I went to XXX...and they are top-tier! I am a better doctor than you!" But really, this isn't the case...because, outside of SDN, nobody gives a **** about any of this stuff.

And sure, I may be pre-med (not really, starting in July)...but I have been around medicine my whole life and have interacted heavily with Derms (MD/DO), Opthos (MD), ENTs (MD/DO) and Plastic Surgeons (DO)--all known as being extremely competitive for both DO's and MD's. I've spoken with them about all this stuff, and I have NEVER heard one doctor belittle another because he went DO or because his training wasn't as "recognized." Hell, one of the MD derms I shadowed trained at Mayo back in the day, and he refers patients to a DO derm who does MOS surgery and trained somewhere I had never heard of. That same MD derm refers his large-scale skin cancer cases to a DO plastic surgeon. Patients are happy, so the referrals keep flowing.

 

[zma21]

I'll never understand why people apply to schools that they wouldn't attend. Sigh.

 

[bucks900]

I recognize that the OP mentioned "top-tier" programs...but why do these threads always resolve to the "only (insert minuscule number here) DO grads have placed at X school over the last 5 years?"

Really...who cares? Touche to those graduates from Drexel that went to JHH...and for the people from DMU who matched at Michigan. Clearly, all of these trainees will be much better physicians than those matching into mid-tier (whatever that means) programs. OMG, a DO matched at JHH, meaning he took an MD's spot. That MD should have gone DO!!!!!!

This bickering back and forth is way too prevalent. It is well known that many MD students consider DO to be a second-rate program, and many DO students feel the same way (hence, threads like this emerge). Albeit, there's no refuting that DO's--on occasion--match into terrific programs...and there's no refuting that MD's--generally speaking--have better odds matching into those terrific programs. If you know what you want and are willing to work hard enough (and are capable of achieving top grades, board scores, etc.) you will most likely be able to place into a program you want. If you can't get into your number one at Columbia or NYU due to the DO-bias, then be happy with your place at Baylor, UCLA or CCF. Congratulations, you all have the same training...but some can still proclaim, "but, I went to XXX...and they are top-tier! I am a better doctor than you!" But really, this isn't the case...because, outside of SDN, nobody gives a **** about any of this stuff.

And sure, I may be pre-med (not really, starting in July)...but I have been around medicine my whole life and have interacted heavily with Derms (MD/DO), Opthos (MD), ENTs (MD/DO) and Plastic Surgeons (DO)--all known as being extremely competitive for both DO's and MD's. I've spoken with them about all this stuff, and I have NEVER heard one doctor belittle another because he went DO or because his training wasn't as "recognized." Hell, one of the MD derms I shadowed trained at Mayo back in the day, and he refers patients to a DO derm who does MOS surgery and trained somewhere I had never heard of. That same MD derm refers his large-scale skin cancer cases to a DO plastic surgeon. Patients are happy, so the referrals keep flowing.

 

[411309]

So much elitism in one thread. Is this how it works? American MDs look down on DOs, DOs look down on carribean MDs, Carribean MDs look down on pods, pods look down on vets, and vets look down on nurses? Lol.

 

[dntke1518]

I recognize that the OP mentioned "top-tier" programs...but why do these threads always resolve to the "only (insert minuscule number here) DO grads have placed at X school over the last 5 years?"

Really...who cares? Touche to those graduates from Drexel that went to JHH...and for the people from DMU who matched at Michigan. Clearly, all of these trainees will be much better physicians than those matching into mid-tier (whatever that means) programs. OMG, a DO matched at JHH, meaning he took an MD's spot. That MD should have gone DO!!!!!!

This bickering back and forth is way too prevalent. It is well known that many MD students consider DO to be a second-rate program, and many DO students feel the same way (hence, threads like this emerge). Albeit, there's no refuting that DO's--on occasion--match into terrific programs...and there's no refuting that MD's--generally speaking--have better odds matching into those terrific programs. If you know what you want and are willing to work hard enough (and are capable of achieving top grades, board scores, etc.) you will most likely be able to place into a program you want. If you can't get into your number one at Columbia or NYU due to the DO-bias, then be happy with your place at Baylor, UCLA or CCF. Congratulations, you all have the same training...but some can still proclaim, "but, I went to XXX...and they are top-tier! I am a better doctor than you!" But really, this isn't the case...because, outside of SDN, nobody gives a **** about any of this stuff.

And sure, I may be pre-med (not really, starting in July)...but I have been around medicine my whole life and have interacted heavily with Derms (MD/DO), Opthos (MD), ENTs (MD/DO) and Plastic Surgeons (DO)--all known as being extremely competitive for both DO's and MD's. I've spoken with them about all this stuff, and I have NEVER heard one doctor belittle another because he went DO or because his training wasn't as "recognized." Hell, one of the MD derms I shadowed trained at Mayo back in the day, and he refers patients to a DO derm who does MOS surgery and trained somewhere I had never heard of. That same MD derm refers his large-scale skin cancer cases to a DO plastic surgeon. Patients are happy, so the referrals keep flowing.

 

[willen101383]

I just want to announce that I just finished my last EVER OMM practical and written. Finally! That is all.

 

[GVL3020]

Take the post-bac. Don't feel bad taking an extra year to do get something that you really want. The higher quality education you will receive at an allopathic school will pay off in the long run. The residency crunch that is coming will destroy osteopathic medical schools match rates.

 

[user3]

Sigh...Let the trolling commence.

 

[costales]

Sigh...Let the trolling commence.

Well, it seems just about every other thread in pre-osteo is metastasizing into an MD vs DO thread. Same crap, different day.

 

[Jamie561]

Yes, an IM doc trained in Montana, Nevada, or NYC all have the same rights. And yes 99.99% (most) will simply practice IM for the remainder of their careers. This was the main point of my original post in this thread.

However Gaystain (and I assumed you based on your initial response) assumed that my implication meant that I thought everyone should then just aim for the bottom of the barrel. That was obviously not what I was saying with my post, and nobody should have read it that way. My whole point in this thread is that not everyone will get the "prestigious" residency. But those who don't, generally end up doing the same jobs in the same or similar places. (fellowship applications obviously excluded)

I merely take exception to Gaystain's implication that I think we should all gun for the bottom of the pile. I assumed you were making that accusation as well. Perhaps we both had a misunderstanding of eachother. It's the nature of the internet.

I admit to using hyperbole in my "gunning for the bottom of the pile" quip, but I simply wanted to convey the point that just as there is a difference between MD/DO and Caribbean, there is likewise a difference (albeit much smaller in magnitude) between MD and DO. This is a fact of medical education in the US.

SDN is all too ready to use charts and tables to show how poorly IMGs match compared to USMGs, but what about DO compared to MD? Why is it, for instance, that we judge DO match lists by the number of matches to reputable ACGME programs? (see DO match list 2012 thread)

DO graduates are far less likely to match IM (or any specialty) at quality academic or community programs. Using the ability to achieve licensure is a low standard indeed (many Caribbean grads will be licensed, certainly greater than 50%).

That's all I wanted to convey behind the snarky response. If OP wants to match well, MD is the mathematically correct choice.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[SkyRider]

Generally speaking, it is obvious MD graduates will have better opportunities to match into "top" ACGME residencies. After all, ACGME residencies are mainly designed for MDs. If D.O.s participate in ACGME matches, from MDs' perspective, technically D.O.s are a sort of intruding their territory. It is emotionally understandable that "some" MDs like to show their opposition to DOs. Of course this is only one of the reasons.

Unfortunately, human beings are programmed to be biased. Many ACGME directors will simply prefer US MDs. In many cases, it has nothing to do with USMLE scores. If D.O.s want to compete for top ACGME residencies, they will usually not only have to have higher board scores , but also show better references and better interview skills than their MD counterparts to win. Well, remember, D.O.s have their own AOA residencies, which is great, and that also takes very hard work too to match into terrific programs.

It is even much worse for FMGs, so often even if they have higher USMLE scores than their US MD/DO counterparts, they still lose their competitions due to their other limitations.

 

[donkeykong1]

I admit to using hyperbole in my "gunning for the bottom of the pile" quip, but I simply wanted to convey the point that just as there is a difference between MD/DO and Caribbean, there is likewise a difference (albeit much smaller in magnitude) between MD and DO. This is a fact of medical education in the US.

SDN is all too ready to use charts and tables to show how poorly IMGs match compared to USMGs, but what about DO compared to MD? Why is it, for instance, that we judge DO match lists by the number of matches to reputable ACGME programs? (see DO match list 2012 thread)

DO graduates are far less likely to match IM (or any specialty) at quality academic or community programs. Using the ability to achieve licensure is a low standard indeed (many Caribbean grads will be licensed, certainly greater than 50%).

That's all I wanted to convey behind the snarky response. If OP wants to match well, MD is the mathematically correct choice.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

MD matchlists are also judged by the number of matches to reputable programs. This is not an anomaly set for DO matchlists. The FACT is that there are a limited amount of top academic sites across all specialties. Not all US MDs will match to these sites, simply b/c there aren't enough for all graduating US MDs. The competition is immense for these programs. DO students do match into these residencies.

You can check each school's match list and find a handful of ACGME matches at academic centers. Given that DOs compromise only 20% of the physician population, the representation of US DOs at these programs in this respect is quite good to say the least.