Programs telling you they will rank you to match

[NicMouse64]

So I've had 2 PDs tell me this pre-ERAS. One is my home program and the other is where I did my away. Can anyone whose gone through this process tell me any horror stories (Ie you ranked these programs #1 and didn't match) or is this generally to be trusted? Apologize if this has been discussed before.

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[operaman]

This varies between programs but I would say it’s generally true and I would take it as a true statement said in good faith. Even so, it should have no impact on your own rank order list unless you just happen to like those programs most.

Here’s the caveat: PDs don’t know how far down the list they’ll go. For example, we had a number above which we considered our ranked to match range. Sometimes we fell a little lower; other times we filled higher. That means some years a ranked to match person or two might not actually match with us.

Other programs consider that term to only mean the top X number of ranks that equals the number of entering positions available in the program. In this case, anyone ranked to match would match there unless they matched higher on their own list.

So yes, you will certainly hear of people not marching after being RTM, but I think it’s more a function of how they interpret that term. Nobody wants to trick someone into coming somewhere they don’t like, but you do want to make sure your top choices know you like them.

 

[xffan624]

So I've had 2 PDs tell me this pre-ERAS. One is my home program and the other is where I did my away. Can anyone whose gone through this process tell me any horror stories (Ie you ranked these programs #1 and didn't match) or is this generally to be trusted? Apologize if this has been discussed before.

It may or may not be true, but it shouldn't impact how you rank programs. Rank programs by where you want to go, not by where they tell you they like you.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Cannot emphasize enough to rank where you want to go and not where people tell you they want you.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Do not believe this. Personally know someone who was told that they were RTM and if they’d be happy at that program, they could stop interviewing and save their money. She believed them and ranked them number one.

Not only did she not match there. The program filled in the SOAP. She wasn’t even ranked at all! Never trust these people.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Match like you are trying to get into med school. PDs intentions are fine, and probably sincere. I have heard from many students, my son included, that it was implied they were highly ranked, only not to match. My son matched 4th choice in the fellowship match. Consider adding a back up program as to not have to SOAP or scramble.

 

[mrbreakfast]

As mentioned above, the "horror story" possibility comes because "ranked to match" can mean different things to different programs. For example:
-Program A has 6 spots; you are "ranked to match," meaning they rank you in their top 6
-Program B also has 6 spots, but last year they had to go to their 15th applicant to fill; you are "ranked to match," meaning you are in their top 15

Pretty clear difference, as you are guaranteed to match to only one of those programs. The distinction only matters for safety schools - eg I knew for a fact I'd match at my home program, which I ranked low, but that gave me some peace of mind. You should still rank where you want to go, not where you think you'd match.


This is distinctly different than "ranked highly," which means absolutely nothing. When I was applying, a certain program told a large number of people they were "ranked very highly" and (based on the spreadsheet) 20+ people who were told this ranked that program #1 and did not match there.

 

[Tenk]

Unless you have known this person for years (ie great relationship with home PD), do not believe this.

As mentioned above, rank where you want to go. Not where you think people want you.

 

[deleted1081396]

They are rats. We are rats.

 

[thumbz]

Keep in mind the match favors the applicant as well. Which means rank in your order of preference, not based on what a program tells you thinking you'll somehow game the system. For example:

Lets assume your home program has you ranked to match. If you rank them #1, you match there. Now lets assume you rank them number 5. If you don't get ranked to match at program 1-4, you'll STILL match at your number 5, your home program. So if you trust them you can still put them anywhere you want on your list and consider them your safety blanket.

As was said above, what you never, ever, ever want to do is trust them and not bother interviewing anywhere else. Because if they're scallywags and lied to you then you could end up in the SOAP.

 

[aldol16]

This is very early in the process for them to be saying that. If they really liked you that much, then you should be getting very clear signals again nearer to the rank list date. The reason I say it's early is because they haven't even interviewed anyone else yet or seen anybody's application for that matter. So for them to say that to you right now means that they don't think anybody else would be more appealing to them (at least outside of the other people they intend to match).

It also means different things to different people. RTM could mean that they have 10 spots and you're the top 10 on their rank list or it could mean that they have 10 spots but usually they go down to 20 on their rank list and you're in the top 20.

Again, if they really want you that badly, you will hear again throughout the season.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Nothing is real unless it's on paper.

 

[RangerBob]

I think most programs are likely to be trustworthy, but just take it as a compliment and still interview/rank as if they never said anything at all.

 

[Lawpy]

Is it wrong to suggest banning these rank to match emails since they're so varied/program dependent, or even in some cases, insincere?

 

[xffan624]

Is it wrong to suggest banning these rank to match emails since they're so varied/program dependent, or even in some cases, insincere?

I honestly don't understand the point of them unless it's to game the applicant into ranking them higher (which is pointless for the reasons articulated above). Applicants can rank all the programs they interview at. There's no reason to rank an undesired program higher for any reason even if the applicant is concerned about matching (it doesn't improve your chances). The only mildly legitimate reason might be to get an applicant who would not even rank a program to rank them because the program tells them they'll definitely match. It seems like a losing proposition to highly desire an applicant that didn't want to rank your program.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I agree with the discussion. I am always very clear with anyone I "guarantee" a spot for -- if I have X spots it means that you're in the top X slots on my rank list. It would be mathematically impossible for you to fall below my program on your rank list, so there would be no point in interviewing at programs that you know will be lower. Now that interviews are all virtual, the monetary benefit is minimal. Can be helpful for applicants who are based locally and don't want to move. I also make it clear that this guarantee is only one way -- I need no guarantee from the student, and it doesn't matter to me if they choose to go somewhere else -- I just get the next match on the list.

 

[aldol16]

I honestly don't understand the point of them unless it's to game the applicant into ranking them higher (which is pointless for the reasons articulated above). Applicants can rank all the programs they interview at. There's no reason to rank an undesired program higher for any reason even if the applicant is concerned about matching (it doesn't improve your chances). The only mildly legitimate reason might be to get an applicant who would not even rank a program to rank them because the program tells them they'll definitely match. It seems like a losing proposition to highly desire an applicant that didn't want to rank your program.

You don't understand the point to the program or the point to the applicant? While you are right that it doesn't improve the applicant's chance of matching into the specialty assuming that the applicant ranks all programs, it could affect how far down the rank list the program falls. For instance, if a program telling an applicant that they are ranked to match somehow makes that program more appealing to the applicant (for example, the applicant might then go and look more carefully at that program and do more research on it, maybe convincing themselves that they really do love the program more than they did before) then it would be in the program's interest to tell the people it is ranking to match. This could prevent the program from falling too far down its rank list.

From the applicant's perspective, I agree that it shouldn't matter at all - but psychologically it might have some effect as I outlined above. If all applicants were just to band together and say "We don't care what any program tells us, we will all rank independently of any PIC" - and if they were credible - then programs would stop doing it. But applicants don't have that sort of power.

 

[xffan624]

You don't understand the point to the program or the point to the applicant? While you are right that it doesn't improve the applicant's chance of matching into the specialty assuming that the applicant ranks all programs, it could affect how far down the rank list the program falls. For instance, if a program telling an applicant that they are ranked to match somehow makes that program more appealing to the applicant (for example, the applicant might then go and look more carefully at that program and do more research on it, maybe convincing themselves that they really do love the program more than they did before) then it would be in the program's interest to tell the people it is ranking to match. This could prevent the program from falling too far down its rank list.

From the applicant's perspective, I agree that it shouldn't matter at all - but psychologically it might have some effect as I outlined above. If all applicants were just to band together and say "We don't care what any program tells us, we will all rank independently of any PIC" - and if they were credible - then programs would stop doing it. But applicants don't have that sort of power.

As I said, there's no point unless it's to game an uninformed applicant into ranking a program higher than they otherwise would. Which is basically what you just said in more words. As has been outlined above, a program stating they are ranking an applicant to match is the equivalent to a LOI in medical school applications. It's not legally binding and it may or may not be true, but regardless it shouldn't impact a decision, in general.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

This reminds me of the quote “give a man a fire and he’ll be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he’ll be warm the rest of his life.”

The match is about you not them. Their program will go on regardless of you being there. Take the interview, be sincere and gracious and take all the other interviews you want. Your future is more important than any single program, so don’t jeopardize that on the kind words of a PD.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

As I said, there's no point unless it's to game an uninformed applicant into ranking a program higher than they otherwise would. Which is basically what you just said in more words. As has been outlined above, a program stating they are ranking an applicant to match is the equivalent to a LOI in medical school applications. It's not legally binding and it may or may not be true, but regardless it shouldn't impact a decision, in general.

The way the system is run, programs can benefit from being deceitful while applicants can’t. So it behooves the applicant to just be honest and to rank programs according to their preference, as the algorithm will favor the applicant if done that way.

 

[Redpancreas]

So I've had 2 PDs tell me this pre-ERAS. One is my home program and the other is where I did my away. Can anyone whose gone through this process tell me any horror stories (Ie you ranked these programs #1 and didn't match) or is this generally to be trusted? Apologize if this has been discussed before.

It’s discussed every year but that’s how SDN works. I’m sure there’s a specific ERAS Panic Thread for your class where it’s being discussed. Couple points.

1.) It’s a long season. Your mind will change with only 10-15 options, imagine how PDs minds will change with 100s. Your PDs don’t owe you anything and if you don’t match there they’ll never have to deal with you again anyways.

2. It’s a unique season: Last season was definitely the most unique with the first virtual cycle but this second virtual cycle is just as unique now with PDs and applicants looking to make adjustments including signaling and all the new wrinkles. Expect more programs to try to recruit students and vice versa.

3. I personally never experienced a “horror story” and it hasn’t happened to anyone I know, but I imagine if it happens to someone they’re pissed and telling everyone so while it happens, I don’t think it’s as common as our med student discussion boards make it seem as one instance is likely to get amplified 1000x.

 

[ACSurgeon]

In the last few years, I’ve heard of a fellowship program fail to submit the rank list by the deadline and a residency program somehow jumble their rank list and not realize it by the deadline. If you were promised to match that year at either program and believed it, you’d be screwed by someone’s incompetence despite good intentions.

Use positive feedback as a positive boost and a source of hope but don’t make any decisions based on it. Don’t sign a lease, put a down payment and certainly don’t cancel other interviews!

 

[thumbz]

Is it wrong to suggest banning these rank to match emails since they're so varied/program dependent, or even in some cases, insincere?

They are banned. Well, maybe not technically banned, but strongly recommended against by the NRMP. Something along the lines of "a program will not try to influence an applicants rank list by sending communications indicating their rank preference" (that's a thumbz quote not an NRMP quote)

Edit: NRMP Quote:

Limit post-interview communication Program directors and other recruitment team members must ensure all information related to the program’s mission, aims and eligibility are clearly communicated to applicants. However, applicants may not have adequate time to obtain the information needed to make informed decisions about ranking and may wish to clarify information following interviews. The recruitment team may exchange clarifying information with applicants following the interview, but must not solicit or require post-interview communication for the purposes of influencing applicants’ ranking preferences. Program directors and all members of the recruitment team should take great care not to promote misleading communication to applicants about ranking intentions and preferences or inappropriately share private information (e.g., letters of recommendation) with outside parties.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

This is idiotic. RTM has no impact whatsoever on how you rank them. The only reason they tell you that is to save their own ass by not dropping too low on their list. They hope that by telling you RTM, they will make you rank them higher too. So stupid. What benefit do you get by ranking them higher when they say you will match no matter what as RTM literally means.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I agree with the discussion. I am always very clear with anyone I "guarantee" a spot for -- if I have X spots it means that you're in the top X slots on my rank list. It would be mathematically impossible for you to fall below my program on your rank list, so there would be no point in interviewing at programs that you know will be lower. Now that interviews are all virtual, the monetary benefit is minimal. Can be helpful for applicants who are based locally and don't want to move. I also make it clear that this guarantee is only one way -- I need no guarantee from the student, and it doesn't matter to me if they choose to go somewhere else -- I just get the next match on the list.

Of course you can’t get their guarantee because no such guarantee can be guaranteed lol.

 

[MrLogan13]

It’s probably true that you’re ranked to match based on their historical data, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll match there, depending on how far down their list they go.

In any event, rank your true preference, not based on what a program is telling you.

 

[Emoryorbust]

So I've had 2 PDs tell me this pre-ERAS. One is my home program and the other is where I did my away. Can anyone whose gone through this process tell me any horror stories (Ie you ranked these programs #1 and didn't match) or is this generally to be trusted? Apologize if this has been discussed before.

I would get on reddit and look at the post-match name and shame thread in the med school forum. Long story short - trust no one and don't let anything they say influence your rank list.

 

[TrailsMixed]

What specialty is this?

 

[Eye-eye]

I was told this. Didn't match. I think it was true at my home program - they matched way higher than normal on their list, so in a normal year, where I was ranked was ranked to match. But yeah... Those hoes ain't loyal, believe me. The second you don't match, all the lies and "we have your best intentions in mind" and all that bull**** gets revealed for what it is. The kindest PDs can instantly turn into saying "choose a different specialty" or simply going radio silence. Believe nothing and plan accordingly.

 

[collegestud2013]

Sounds too early in the cycle for any program to make that much of a commitment to any applicant. I also wouldn't believe anything said word and mouth alone. If this program is your first choice it may be tempting to just cancel your other interviews and only rank that program and save yourself some time and interview expenses (though this year they are still minimal with virtual interviews) but as others have suggested this is very risky.

If you receive something in writing, such as an email, that would carry more weight. Also look at the wording of the mail very carefully; unless it literally says "ranked to match" in an email (meaning if for example a program had 10 spots you're ranked #10 or higher) any wording that's more vague doesn't guarantee anything.

Programs want to get as many applicants to rank them high so they can get the applicants they actually rank highly. So its not uncommon for programs to tell nearly applicant they interview something like "you're an excellent candidate" or "ranked very highly" but obviously they have to rank some candidates higher than others.

 

[Lawpy]

They are banned. Well, maybe not technically banned, but strongly recommended against by the NRMP. Something along the lines of "a program will not try to influence an applicants rank list by sending communications indicating their rank preference" (that's a thumbz quote not an NRMP quote)

Edit: NRMP Quote:

Limit post-interview communication Program directors and other recruitment team members must ensure all information related to the program’s mission, aims and eligibility are clearly communicated to applicants. However, applicants may not have adequate time to obtain the information needed to make informed decisions about ranking and may wish to clarify information following interviews. The recruitment team may exchange clarifying information with applicants following the interview, but must not solicit or require post-interview communication for the purposes of influencing applicants’ ranking preferences. Program directors and all members of the recruitment team should take great care not to promote misleading communication to applicants about ranking intentions and preferences or inappropriately share private information (e.g., letters of recommendation) with outside parties.

Even more a case to enforce the bans strongly. Programs have every incentive to lie and deceive