Quadriplegic acceptance into medical school: please help!

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Congratulations!!! I've been periodically reading this thread as it's evolved, and have also been annoyed at some of the comments made. 🙄 Please keep us updated and educated! 😀

S.
 
Thought I would update everyone as to my progress...I am a C7 applying to medical school.

I have had 6 interview invites, 2 of which came from top 5 medical schools in the country, according to US News.

I have been accepted to Johns Hopkins. Waiting on others...

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. And to those attempting to discourage me, I don't blame you, I blame your ignorance. It's sad that a community meant to share and encourage can turn so ugly sometimes...you don't see that in other forums as much.

Every doctor I met on adcoms balked at some requirements in the technical standards. All very encouraging...

I also have met many quad doctors along the way, all the way from C5-C7....this was awesome...I actually found the process of application very inspiring, which is not supposed to happen!

Again, thanks everyone for the inspiring words and maybe I'll meet some of you along the way! Already got a good dose of shemarty 😉


I am very impressed and want to encourage you to continue to achieve your dreams. You have inspired me. YOU WILL MAKE IT no matter what others might try to tell you. Many people told me I would not make be accepted to med school for one reason or the other, and I am in! And God's willing, I will graduate and be a physician someday.

All the best with your endeavors! It's funny how some people in this thread were basically telling you not to bother to apply, or do research, or try and find something else. And then, when you got in, were wishing you the best of luck, ay vida! Never pay any attention to those who try to discourage. Sometimes in this life, all we have is our own encouragement!
 
Congratulations!

And with a school like JHU, what a way to stick it to the obnoxious idiots here on SDN who spoke down to you and told you that your goal was unreachable.

These are the same idiots, if they do make it in somewhere, will be the arrogant jerks who speak down to people lower than them anywhere in medicine (med students, interns, junior residents and ESPECIALLY patients).

There are plenty of avenues in medicine (radiology, research, etc) where you can contribute just as much as anyone else to the field.

Congrats again.
 
Congrats OP!!! You're an inspiration. 🙂 I would love to read a blog as well.
 
Congrats walderness!! Nice job, man, I'm glad to hear the year's been so good to you.

To the people who mentioned a blog, I'll shamelessly plug my own, which I've been writing since I suffered a spinal cord injury earlier this year. The URL is in my sig if you're interested..
 
To the people who mentioned a blog, I'll shamelessly plug my own, which I've been writing since I suffered a spinal cord injury earlier this year. The URL is in my sig if you're interested..

Congrats to you, too! I'm gonna check out your blog...
 
So I am going to elaborate a little more on the functionality of my hands because I think many of you would find it interesting. Some annoying poster was trying to catch me with inconsistencies earlier in the thread so let me clarify my current status.

I have some movement in my fingers, but this trace finger extension does not translate into any functionality. People injured around C6,7 do maintain somw functionality through tenodesis and the use of a tenodesis splint. Essentially, by maintaining tension in your finger flexors, extending your wrist causes your hand to close. Flexing your wrist then opens your hand. I use this ability to pick up objects and eventually intruments
for use in medicine.

Now the interesting part:

In January, I am going to undergo a tendon transfer. It’s a 2-step procedure that involves the following:

The initial surgery involves:
1. anchoring (tenodesis) of the extensor tendons to the radius bone
2. stabilizing the end joint of the thumb
3. performing the initial part of the intrinsic muscle substitution - attach a flexor tendon to the base of each finger

The second surgery involves
1. Transfer of one of the wrist extensor muscles (ECRL) to the finger flexor tendons
2. Transfer the brachioradialis to the thumb flexor tendon
3. Part 2 of the intrinsic stabilization - transfer of part of the pronator teres to the other set of flexor tendons, those that they attached to the base of the finger at the first procedure.

The end result? A powerful grasp by extending my wrist—my quad friend can crush a beer can by extending his wrist. I also watched him hammer in a nail. And a stronger pinch with my thumb…all this without a splint or extra equipment—which you learn to drop quickly.

Simple overview here.
 
I already congratulated you via PM, but I'll say it here to: congratulations!!! Also, just out of curosity, what technical requirements did the physician adcom members balk at?

My interviewer at ucsf was laughing about how tech standards say...must be able to perform basic labratory tests...she said "I wish we actually did that so I could get immediate results for some patients..."
 
I realize that I am jumping into this thread quite late in the game, but I would just like to say congratulations and wish you the best of luck! I am sure that as a paralytic, you will have a perspective which will enable you to help your patients in unique and valuable ways.

I would wish you the strength and perseverance you will need to make it through medical school, but I am quite certain you already have them. Instead I'll give you a favorite blessing from the land of my redheaded forefathers: "May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full moon on a dark night, and the road downhill all the way to your door."
 
I must have skipped over the part where you said you got an acceptance!

😀 Congratulations!😀

Work hard, don't give up, don't get discouraged, and I(we're) confident you'll do well!
 
Not trying to harp on this too much, but I want to make sure that those SDNers with a disability know that 40% of the "advice" on this forum is incorrect.

I am now convinced that quadriplegia, among other disabilities, are finally viewed as an asset by many medical schools--thanks mostly to the hundreds of quad doctors out there who fought to get in school and are now successful.

I received interview invites to Hopkins, UCSF, Tulane, Stanford, University of Wisconsin, NYU, USC, and University of Arizona, Tucson and Phoenix. I was rejected from Harvard, GWU, Yale, AECOM, and Wright State (cuz OOS). I also got a very distasteful rejection from Wake Forest's DOA Irene Tise--I had a separate question that mentioned my quadriplegia. She refused to answer the question by saying that they don't take quads.

Anyways, keep pushing ahead disabled community. But please, I'm not an inspiration for keeping my goals pre-injury. I watch thousands of people do it all the time!

Thanks to everyone for the well wishes...
 
Not trying to harp on this too much, but I want to make sure that those SDNers with a disability know that 40% of the "advice" on this forum is incorrect.

I am now convinced that quadriplegia, among other disabilities, are finally viewed as an asset by many medical schools--thanks mostly to the hundreds of quad doctors out there who fought to get in school and are now successful.

I received interview invites to Hopkins, UCSF, Tulane, Stanford, University of Wisconsin, NYU, USC, and University of Arizona, Tucson and Phoenix. I was rejected from Harvard, GWU, Yale, AECOM, and Wright State (cuz OOS). I also got a very distasteful rejection from Wake Forest's DOA Irene Tise--I had a separate question that mentioned my quadriplegia. She refused to answer the question by saying that they don't take quads.

Anyways, keep pushing ahead disabled community. But please, I'm not an inspiration for keeping my goals pre-injury. I watch thousands of people do it all the time!

Thanks to everyone for the well wishes...
congradu freakin lations
 
Hey Walderness... I helped you out at our UCSF interview.

Will I be seeing you at Hopkins?
 
congrats, where are you going to attend?

I know wisconsin had a MD PhD who was completely blind, I actually sat in on one of his seminars two years ago, right before he finished his PhD
 
Hey Walderness... I helped you out at our UCSF interview.

Will I be seeing you at Hopkins?

at lunch? thanks again! good to know rumors aabout evil hopkins students are unfounded.

pretty sure on hopkins but waiting on stanford. u going to 2nd look?

didnt end up interv'ing at wisc cuz of weather
 
i ran into your friend from yale at our ucsf interview agn at my stanford interview. the interview circles are small it seems, which makes me more confident with waitlist positions.

Hey Walderness... I helped you out at our UCSF interview.

Will I be seeing you at Hopkins?
 
I just read through this entire thread for the first time. Congratulations on everything. You deserve it, especially with all of your motivation and dedication. Never let anyone bring you down. "If you want to be happy, be." ~Leo Tolstoy
 
Wow. Honestly, I don't think the fact that you got into an incredible medical school is as amazing as the fact that you did it so soon after your injury. You never lost sight of your goals; just picked yourself up afterward, hopped over the hurdle that stood in your way, and did it.

And I don't think any of us have the right to tell you how impossible it will be for you to succeed. If the adcoms think you can do it, then I'm sure you can. They sure as heck know better than us pre-meds do.

Congratulations man. You deserve it. Good luck!
 
Not trying to harp on this too much, but I want to make sure that those SDNers with a disability know that 40% of the "advice" on this forum is incorrect....

Congrats again but I think you'll have to go through med school and land a residency before you really know how much of the advice was correct. A lot of us further along were trying to warn you that you might be running toward a wall and I think a lot of us still think that is the case, notwithstanding your vaulting over the first hurdle (admissions). Again congrats, but though it seems herculean on the pre-allo board, "getting in" to med school is really just the smallest hill to climb before you reach base camp -- the mountain lays ahead.

I again point out that most of the thread was mostly not about "you" but about the issue of accommodations in a global sense, which I think is an important discussion, and I think most of the advice you got, even that which you disagreed, was correct with respect to most med schools and residencies. While your own plight was interesting, you started a more important discussion. I'm happy for you that you found that unicorn in the field of horses that was willing to make accommodations. Wonderful. We shall see if you are able to pull that same rabbit out of a hat in 4 years when you apply for residency, or whether you will join the ranks of those disabled folks who got MDs, but were unable to find a place to use them. Or whether you and your peers still feel you got the same kind of med school education given the things you may not be able to do, and whether you still feel that med school is 100% cerebral once you get to the clinical years. Good luck. You may well need it for what's to come.

For those interested in the disability/accommodations issue (independent of OP's plight), there is actually a discussion going on on the Surgery residency board about whether someone who is deaf can become a surgeon. The responses are overwhelmingly negative.
 
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simply amazing. When I first started reading this thread, I thought there was little chance you would make it this far (admission), given all the technical standards I have read about.

I don't know where your journey will take you, and there are sure to be so many obstacles ahead, but it's a great beginning to the story.

Nothing but the best 👍
 
Or whether you and your peers still feel you got the same kind of med school education given the things you may not be able to do, and whether you still feel that med school is 100% cerebral once you get to the clinical years. Good luck. You may well need it for what's to come.

Def agree there will be trials and tribulations...

But don't think it's 100% cerebral. Just met with a C6 physician at stanford, physiatrist, who does steroid injections, vertebroplasties, emg's, med director of SCI rehab, etc. His main accommodation is a lowered pt table. And he lacks triceps and an active pinch/grasp from my tendon txer.

There were miscommunications on here from the beginning. I was mistakeningly interchanging the words function and movement. And posters were interpreting my functional levels as static. Among others. Nevertheless, I plan on documenting my journey.

I think you and others would be very surprised ifyou met me and saw what I can do! But I did appreciate insi9ght as to whats to come.
 
I just happened upon this thread- what an incredible story. Congratulations, I wish the best of luck in medical school!!!
 
Sorry if I'm beating this to death, but I just wanted to add something.

I'm a Berkeley graduate, 3.77 GPA, 36Q MCAT, worked my butt off to get all applications in for the 2007 season. Then I woke up from a coma as a quadriplegic. I believe I will still make a very valuable Dr. even if I have to force people to make accommodations for me. I'll have the med school bend their rules, I'll have my residency bend the rules, I'll have the physiatry board bend the rules. Having a doctor advise you when you have the same injury is valuable.

If you woke up tomorrow as a quadriplegic, and really put yourself there, don't compartmentalize it, how would you react?

Sorry, just a little passionate about this issue.

Hey, Im in Berkeley also, its a tough school.. sorry I have no advice for you but I just want to say I commend your efforts and wish you all the luck in the world. God speed to you my friend.
 
dude you are a rockstar.

agreed 👍

jumping into this thread very late, but i've been reading it all along... way to go, man! good luck to you in the next step(s) of the journey 🙂
 
Also jumping in late, but just wanted to wish you luck, man! Your story is incredibly cool and I'm sure you will overcome the obstacles that await you. Rock on!
 
hey all,
just an update. walderness is indeed a med student at jhu. I'm one of his classmates and I happened to stumble upon this forum. I'm disgusted by many of the negative comments here, but also proud of the compassion and support that many of y'all show. In regards to the concerns that he'd be a drag on his classmates: y'all couldn't be more wrong. Not surprisingly, he's not only an inspiration to many of us, but he's also a big help. Seriously, I've walked out of exams after him, even though he's allowed unlimited time and only has limited use of a few fingers. In our team based learning classes, he quickly became known as Dr. W b/c of his intelligence, especially during neurology. Besides his physical limitations, he's also got less time to study than most of us b/c transport, hygiene and medical needs absorb much of his day. Like I said though, despite these limitations, he's easily one of the best students at our school. To those who said he'd be a drag on his colleagues during anatomy, as his anatomy partner I can personally attest to that not being true. Anatomy, like almost all of medicine, is about way more than physicality. The dissections aren't even necessary really for some people, who can imagine the layout of the body and draw a map in their mind. This is essentially what happens every time you do a laparoscopic (especially robotic) procedure.

Also, in reading some of these comments I lament that fact that so many med students/doctors neglect the social aspect of medicine. Sure, walderness may have some difficulty performing physical exam maneuvers, but an even more important part of medicine is compassion, and connection with your patients. Walderness is a quadriplegic man who wants to spend the rest of his life devoted to helping people going through what he went through, plus he's a genius and has a great sense of humor. If you know anything about quads or SCI patients, it's easy to imagine that many of them might feel discouraged or depressed, and may not feel like their doctor understands them. I'd be willing to bet my career that Walderness' patients are not only going to adore him, they're going to fly from all over the world to see him.

Lastly, although this is an internet forum, and many people like to use internet forums to be mean and nasty and say all kinds of things they could never get away with in real life, please keep in mind that hurtful statements are never warranted, and for many people, especially those who are mobility impaired or socially isolated, the internet is a huge means of staying connected to other people. Let's try to be a little nicer to each other and remember that the Golden Rule applies, even on SDN.

thanks
 
hey all,
just an update. walderness is indeed a med student at jhu. I'm one of his classmates and I happened to stumble upon this forum. I'm disgusted by many of the negative comments here, but also proud of the compassion and support that many of y'all show. In regards to the concerns that he'd be a drag on his classmates: y'all couldn't be more wrong. Not surprisingly, he's not only an inspiration to many of us, but he's also a big help. Seriously, I've walked out of exams after him, even though he's allowed unlimited time and only has limited use of a few fingers. In our team based learning classes, he quickly became known as Dr. W b/c of his intelligence, especially during neurology. Besides his physical limitations, he's also got less time to study than most of us b/c transport, hygiene and medical needs absorb much of his day. Like I said though, despite these limitations, he's easily one of the best students at our school. To those who said he'd be a drag on his colleagues during anatomy, as his anatomy partner I can personally attest to that not being true. Anatomy, like almost all of medicine, is about way more than physicality. The dissections aren't even necessary really for some people, who can imagine the layout of the body and draw a map in their mind. This is essentially what happens every time you do a laparoscopic (especially robotic) procedure.

Also, in reading some of these comments I lament that fact that so many med students/doctors neglect the social aspect of medicine. Sure, walderness may have some difficulty performing physical exam maneuvers, but an even more important part of medicine is compassion, and connection with your patients. Walderness is a quadriplegic man who wants to spend the rest of his life devoted to helping people going through what he went through, plus he's a genius and has a great sense of humor. If you know anything about quads or SCI patients, it's easy to imagine that many of them might feel discouraged or depressed, and may not feel like their doctor understands them. I'd be willing to bet my career that Walderness' patients are not only going to adore him, they're going to fly from all over the world to see him.

Lastly, although this is an internet forum, and many people like to use internet forums to be mean and nasty and say all kinds of things they could never get away with in real life, please keep in mind that hurtful statements are never warranted, and for many people, especially those who are mobility impaired or socially isolated, the internet is a huge means of staying connected to other people. Let's try to be a little nicer to each other and remember that the Golden Rule applies, even on SDN.

thanks
awesome, thanks for bringing this to our attention
 
... In regards to the concerns that he'd be a drag on his classmates: y'all couldn't be more wrong. ...

I think if you look back, most of the discussion on here was whether he would be able to pull his weight in 3rd year rotations and later, more importantly, residency, not in first year anatomy class. Heck, half the squeamish folks in the room didn't pull their weight in anatomy. The team there is less about teamwork to get a job done and more about giving you a core of friends with whom to share this morbid experience. Rotations are very different, and residency even more different than that. Given the timing of this thread, the jury is still out on that.

As for the whole golden rule, it's actually a heck of a lot meaner to cheer someone on when the hurdles are insurmountable than to tell someone the truth. I actually know a person who was a bit less disabled, but similarly "misled" and cheered on through med school, only to be sat down at the beginning of fourth year by the administration and told that they should choose another specialty to which to apply. Basically blindsided him, pulled the carpet out of under him. Which IMHO is a whole lot less nice than telling that person on day 1.

Here the truth is/was, based on his original description of his injury (which significantly changed at some point within this thread, for whatever reason, making some of us original respondents sound harsher) that he wouldn't be able to surmount med school without accommodations, and again won't be able to surmount residency without accommodations. And that residency, for example, is hard enough when you have a whole team of folks all pulling their weight, but if you have someone who can't be left alone in the ICU because he's not physically capable of eg chest compressions in a code, then he can't pull his weight, and his co-residents as a result are going to have to take more call.

In 5 years when the OP actually finishes his rotations and residency, THEN you can come on here and tell us how none of OP's classmates and co-residents were taxed unfairly by the accommodations made for OP along the way. We won't believe you, but at least it won't be premature.
 
I think if you look back, most of the discussion on here was whether he would be able to pull his weight in 3rd year rotations and later, more importantly, residency, not in first year anatomy class. Heck, half the squeamish folks in the room didn't pull their weight in anatomy. The team there is less about teamwork to get a job done and more about giving you a core of friends with whom to share this morbid experience. Rotations are very different, and residency even more different than that. Given the timing of this thread, the jury is still out on that.

As for the whole golden rule, it's actually a heck of a lot meaner to cheer someone on when the hurdles are insurmountable than to tell someone the truth. I actually know a person who was a bit less disabled, but similarly "misled" and cheered on through med school, only to be sat down at the beginning of fourth year by the administration and told that they should choose another specialty to which to apply. Basically blindsided him, pulled the carpet out of under him. Which IMHO is a whole lot less nice than telling that person on day 1.

Here the truth is/was, based on his original description of his injury (which significantly changed at some point within this thread, for whatever reason, making some of us original respondents sound harsher) that he wouldn't be able to surmount med school without accommodations, and again won't be able to surmount residency without accommodations. And that residency, for example, is hard enough when you have a whole team of folks all pulling their weight, but if you have someone who can't be left alone in the ICU because he's not physically capable of eg chest compressions in a code, then he can't pull his weight, and his co-residents as a result are going to have to take more call.

In 5 years when the OP actually finishes his rotations and residency, THEN you can come on here and tell us how none of OP's classmates and co-residents were taxed unfairly by the accommodations made for OP along the way. We won't believe you, but at least it won't be premature.

Yeah I, along with L2D, was one of the main naysayers who took quite a lot of flack.

I want to again stress, as L2D did, that one of things that confused us the most was that walderness's disability seemed to be a bit dynamic (outside of the proposed surgery).

Another thing that was very odd was that walderness led by saying things like that his disabled mentor with limited upper extremity use claimed to be a better physical examiner than his non-disabled comments.

The other thing that riled us so much was that we were quite a bit senior in this process and our concerns were treated as though they were coming from a position of ignorance relative to a pre-med.

It is good to hear that this obviously remarkably talented person matriculated at a medical school, but like L2D said, the test is not whether or not he is a good participant in small group discussions. The first 2 years of med school are a masters in human A+P, not a clinical experience.

The test has not come, the test is what L2D said: 5 years from now at the end of residency. And, like L2D said, if you say he made it through without MAJOR assistance from multiple other parties and if you say he was a 100% functioning member of a team in any specialty, we simply will not believe you.
 
Well, good luck to the OP and keep on truckin'?

That's all I got, man.
 
nargilamonster: thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how the story in a thread turns out.

L2D and AB: Your opinions are clear, but I suspect from your posts on this thread that neither of you is an expert in the concepts and practices of reasonable adjustment for disabilities. I've been impressed by your contributions on other threads, but on this one I wonder whether it might now be better for you to give it a rest.
 
nargilamonster: thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how the story in a thread turns out.

L2D and AB: Your opinions are clear, but I suspect from your posts on this thread that neither of you is an expert in the concepts and practices of reasonable adjustment for disabilities. I've been impressed by your contributions on other threads, but on this one I wonder whether it might now be better for you to give it a rest.
Really? The points they have raised are very valid and reasonable. They have a far better understanding of med school and residency than any of us premeds do, so I don't understand the hostility they've been subjected to when all they were trying to do was paint a more realistic picture.

Congrats to the OP and best of luck with the clinical years and residency.
 
OP i commend you in your efforts, never before have i seen anyone on this forum, including me be so passionate about becoming a doctor. You have to understand many people are being realistic here.. i mean thats the mentality most of us future physicians carry anyhow; but we all do have dreams as well. I believe you have the drive to do it, and although i can't seem to offer any direct advice, i hope my message empowers you. You will become a physician, i can tell you that right off the bat.
 
Really? The points they have raised are very valid and reasonable. They have a far better understanding of med school and residency than any of us premeds do, so I don't understand the hostility they've been subjected to when all they were trying to do was paint a more realistic picture.

Congrats to the OP and best of luck with the clinical years and residency.

Part of my job for the last several years has been to represent people with disabilities (and people subject to discrimination) in my workplace. I have enough understanding of the subject of disability and reasonable adjustments to know I am not an expert (and that there are people who are experts who can recognise and find solutions for a very wide spectrum of issues relating to disability - remarkable strides have been made on this in the last few years, aided by modern technology). But I know enough to work out that there should be nothing stopping the OP from becoming a doctor.

The concerns raised relate to procedures. But if you break down what is involved in any medical procedure, then it will be something like -

1) The description of the physical procedure,
2) What it does (provides information/the effect it has on the patient),
3) When it is appropriate to use the physical procedure,
4) What it should and should not be used in combination with, in all the different circumstances in which it might be used,
5) What the possible outcomes are, and what follows on from each of those outcomes,
6) Deciding, on the basis of this knowledge and on knowledge of the particular patient, that the procedure should be performed on this patient at this time,
7) Performing the procedure.

On 1 to 6, the OP is in exactly the same position as any able bodied person. That means that, with the same education and training afforded to an able bodied person, he will be able to determine what procedures should be performed and when, just as any other doctor. That is at least 95% of what is needed from a doctor in any medical situation, and 100% of it in most, where others (nurses, PAs, techs, etc) will be actually performing the procedure.

On 7, the OP gave a pretty detailed description of his abilities. He has full use of his arms, and use of his hands which includes a powerful grip, a good pinch and some finger movement. It seems to me that with those abilities he would be able to do a lot of procedures on the same basis as any other person. There may be some procedures where additional techniques, equipment or learning time (to find a way of performing the procedure which fits with his physical abilities) will be a reasonable adjustment.

There may be some situations where the OP would need to direct another person to perform the procedure. For instance, in the example given of chest compressions in the ICU, it may be possible for the OP to do it. But if not, how often is any resident going to be in an ICU on their own with a patient who needs chest compressions, and no-one else, such as a nurse or tech, is around to do it or within calling distance? That doesn't sound to me like a particularly safely run ICU, whatever the physical status of the resident.

I have been disappointed, reading through this thread, at some of the attitudes displayed towards the OP's abiility to recognise and deal with his disability in the context of a medical education, training and practice. I think he dealt with those attitudes with remarkable grace and patience.
 
nargilamonster: thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how the story in a thread turns out.

L2D and AB: Your opinions are clear, but I suspect from your posts on this thread that neither of you is an expert in the concepts and practices of reasonable adjustment for disabilities. I've been impressed by your contributions on other threads, but on this one I wonder whether it might now be better for you to give it a rest.

You are correct about that in my case, I can't speak for L2D.

We are "experts" in medical education, clinical rotations, and residency training.

I for one would be interested in continued updates about this situation. A factor in this discussion is that all comments to the effect of "you go man!" or "he is doing such a great job!" are the sorts of things that are enthusiastically posted, but the person with the minority view who may have been inconvenienced will be less likely to say anything for fear of reprisal.

An example: unlimited time for tests? Unlimited? If I was in a class that got graded on a curve and got knocked down a letter grade by a student who got unlimited time I would not be pleased.
 
...

There may be some situations where the OP would need to direct another person to perform the procedure. For instance, in the example given of chest compressions in the ICU, it may be possible for the OP to do it. But if not, how often is any resident going to be in an ICU on their own with a patient who needs chest compressions, and no-one else, such as a nurse or tech, is around to do it or within calling distance? ...

If you are asking this question, you shouldn't be presuming you know the answer. In a Code, every second that blood isn't going to the brain counts. If you are first on the scene, you have to start compressing right away, not start calling and hope somebody comes in a relatively short time. You WILL be alone with patients frequently during overnight calls. There will be times when you cannot find the nurse. There's generally a nurse for every 2-3 patients, but they may be gowned up next door with another patient, or in the bathroom, etc. Overnight on call, I'd say 90% of what you need to do emergently, you are going to have to do yourself, not "direct another to perform the procedure". So yeah, this does mean you cannot be alone on this kind of shift.

Also when it rains it pours, so it's not unheard of for two of your patients to Code simultaneously and the ICU staff to be spread extremely thin. You need to be able to pull your own weight, not simply be able to direct people.
 
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If you are asking this question, you shouldn't be presuming you know the answer. In a Code, every second that blood isn't going to the brain counts. If you are first on the scene, you have to start compressing right away, not start calling and hope somebody comes in a relatively short time. You WILL be alone with patients frequently during overnight calls. There will be times when you cannot find the nurse. There's generally a nurse for every 2-3 patients, but they may be gowned up next door with another patient, or in the bathroom, etc. Overnight on call, I'd say 90% of what you need to do emergently, you are going to have to do yourself, not "direct another to perform the procedure". So yeah, this does mean you cannot be alone on this kind of shift.

And in many, many cases the person you are going to be "directing" is going to have to a be a fellow resident with his own stack of work to do.

To you pre-meds, rather than thinking that L2D and I are just haters, imagine if there was a severely disabled person in your orgo lab. Super nice guy, very smart, but oh yeah - you have to do many of the physical steps of his experiment for him. This is essentially what is being said with respect to "he can just call for someone to do chest compressions."

We are thinking about this as residents, and imagining the logistics of working next to someone who cannot function at 100%. Stuff hits the fan in the middle of the night, and when that happens people who can't do 100% for whatever reason (sickness, dumb, lazy) are a big issue.
 
nargilamonster: thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how the story in a thread turns out.

L2D and AB: Your opinions are clear, but I suspect from your posts on this thread that neither of you is an expert in the concepts and practices of reasonable adjustment for disabilities. I've been impressed by your contributions on other threads, but on this one I wonder whether it might now be better for you to give it a rest.

I'll concede that, "neither of us is an expert in the concepts and practices of reasonable adjustment for disabilities" (I actually have a fair familiarity with the legal issues, but I'll let that go). But we are experts in what is involved in med school and residency. And that is what this thread is about. Will the OP be able to perform what is needed to complete rotations/residency without such significant accommodations being made such that he is still accomplishing the equivalent training and that his cohorts aren't getting royally burned because of it. I think unless you actually know firsthand what is involved in residency, you aren't picturing the right set of tasks.

For a lot of us, intern year was spent running around the hospital, running up and down flights of stairs for codes, doing lots of hands on procedures which involved flipping over heavy patients, doing chest compressions, holding down flailing arms/legs with one hand while holding a sharp instrument in another, and so on. There was no "directing someone else" to do this job. Sometimes you had some help, often you didn't. This is what the job entails. Not a great deal cerebral about it, much of the time you were simply reacting, not thinking -- we are the grunt gorillas running around the hospital in the middle of the night answering pages and "fixing" things as they come up. 80 hours/week. Often alone and in the middle of the night. If you can't do it, that would be problematic. Someone else would have to be assigned to cover that shift. That's what we are saying. It's really the same as if the OP was saying they wanted to be an EMS worker as a manual dexterity limited quadriplegic. Somehow the premeds on here picture someone sitting in a cushy office listening to patients as what doctors do (and you clearly are picturing this if you think OP is going to have 95%-100% of the necessary skillset), but even if that's the case at the end of the road, that's not what residents do. And make no mistake for PM&R or whichever field OP wants to go into, they make you do a relatively traditional intern year.
 
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On 7, the OP gave a pretty detailed description of his abilities. He has full use of his arms, and use of his hands which includes a powerful grip, a good pinch and some finger movement. It seems to me that with those abilities he would be able to do a lot of procedures on the same basis as any other person. ...

Again, he changed his description of his abilities during the course of the thread for whatever reason, perhaps because enough residents suggested his originally described limitations would be prohibitive, and he wanted his story to fly. So no, I don't concede that he "gave a pretty detailed description of his abilities". He started the thread having very limited manual dexterity.

Specifically he said he had a complete spinal injury at C7 and that no nervous signal was getting through, and that "I am a C7 quadriplegic, meaning I only have missing hand function but full arm function." In other words, his hands don't really work. No "powerful grip, a good pinch and some finger movement" as you describe. He changed to this description much later in the thread after a bunch of us said he wouldn't be able to do the job. He also conceded that he would require a lot of accommodation.


But again, I think the value of this thread is not about the OPs personal situation, but the underlying discussion. At what point are accommodations so significant that the training is no longer equivalent/adequate? If someone can't use their limbs such that their training really isn't very similar, isn't there a problem with that? Should someone be on a team if they cannot pull equivalent weight? Those of us in residency all know at least someone with no physical disabilities who didn't pull their weight and didn't have their residency contract renewed (ie they got thrown out of residency) - how is this any different? If someone due to chronic illness simply cannot do 80 hours/week or a long overnight shift should we start making accommodations for this too? My point is that there are jobs which are out there that are totally cerebral, and that someone sitting in a chair with limited or no manual dexterity could excel at. Nobody is suggesting that the Stephen Hawkings of the world are a drain on society and that there aren't careers out there well suited to them. We are simply suggesting that that guy wouldn't be able to do anything resembling the intern year we went through. And yes, we are experts in what is involved in this training, being currently immersed in it.
 
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Again, he changed his description of his abilities during the course of the thread for whatever reason, perhaps because enough residents suggested his originally described limitations would be prohibitive, and he wanted his story to fly. So no, I don't concede that he "gave a pretty detailed description of his abilities". He started the thread having very limited manual dexterity.

Specifically he said he had a complete spinal injury at C7 and that no nervous signal was getting through, and that "I am a C7 quadriplegic, meaning I only have missing hand function but full arm function." In other words, his hands don't really work. No "powerful grip, a good pinch and some finger movement" as you describe. He changed to this description much later in the thread after a bunch of us said he wouldn't be able to do the job. He also conceded that he would require a lot of accommodation.

See post 186. One thing that is undeniable is that walderness claimed that he had "missing" hand function, then claimed to "only" have R tricep fxn and then later stated that his hands (bilateral) were nimble and he could "probably" suture. He also described himself at different times as a "quad" and then a "para."

Since pointing the discrepancies out to the OP led to us getting called ignorant, I thought he was possibly a troll. The whole thing was strange, because the distinction between "missing hand function" and "could probably suture" is actually pretty important when you are talking about a job that requires any hand use.

It's just a strange way to talk about a disability, and L2D is right, it seemed as though functionality was being restored in response to criticism.
 
AB and L2D, I hope you will forgive a joint reply. I get from your posts the following points -

1. You say you are experts in medical education, clinical rotations and residency training. Well, you obviously have been, or still are, the subjects of medical education, clinical rotations and residency training, which gives you a particular experience (n=2). That doesn't of itself make you an expert in those things, any more than suffering from a medical condition makes you an expert in that medical condition. I would hope that the people who admitted the OP as a medical student to Johns Hopkins are experts in medical education, clinical rotations and residency training and admitted him in the belief that he will be able to successfully complete them.

2. I haven't commented on the unlimited time for tests, and we don't know whether or not there was a grade curve. It was stated that the OP has come out of at least some exams in less than the time allowed for other students, with a reasonable assumption that would have been within the normal time allowed.

3. We don't know whether or not the OP could do chest compressions, or some of the other physical things you mention (holding down flailing legs and arms seems entirely possible for someone with full use of their arms, for instance). If not, and there are likely to be occasions where this is immediately essential, a reasonable adjustment would be to have someone with the OP who could do them as directed, on those occasions - time when this might be necessary would be scheduled and discernable in advance. It would be fairly cheap to provide someone with this limited level of expertise, in the overall scheme of things. It seems entirely possible that pre-meds or other volunteers would do it for free, in return for the shadowing/volunteering experience. So it doesn't have to be other residents who are affected by this, and in fact, from what you say, having other residents provide this assistance would be an inefficient and ineffective way of making the necessary adjustment for the OPs disability.

4. As for running around the hospital, have you seen how fast some people in wheelchairs can move? Have a look at the para-Olympics or a wheelchair marathon, where times are faster than the guys on two legs.

5. On the OPs description of his abilities with his hands, he said he had "missing hand function". I interpreted that, when I first read it, as meaning there were some things he couldn't do with his hands, which chimes with his later posts (and the prospect of surgery which would give him the strong grip). You may have interpreted it as "missing all hand function", which I don't think the OP meant, and based on my experience is not how I would have interpreted what he said.
 
3. We don't know whether or not the OP could do chest compressions, or some of the other physical things you mention (holding down flailing legs and arms seems entirely possible for someone with full use of their arms, for instance). If not, and there are likely to be occasions where this is immediately essential, a reasonable adjustment would be to have someone with the OP who could do them as directed, on those occasions - time when this might be necessary would be scheduled and discernable in advance. It would be fairly cheap to provide someone with this limited level of expertise, in the overall scheme of things. It seems entirely possible that pre-meds or other volunteers would do it for free, in return for the shadowing/volunteering experience. So it doesn't have to be other residents who are affected by this, and in fact, from what you say, having other residents provide this assistance would be an inefficient and ineffective way of making the necessary adjustment for the OPs disability.

Wow there is a lot here to tackle.

1. If you can't basically get above a patient, and be able to direct the entire weight of your own body from the wait up down directly onto their sternum 100x/min for 2-3 minutes if need be, then you cannot do adequate CPR. There is no discussion to be had here, I'm an emergency medicine resident. You may be right that I am not the final word in medical education but I am definitely an expert in cardiac arrest. Poor quality CPR kills.

2. Times when immediate physical activity would NOT be easily discernible in advance. I don't really know what to say about this, again I work in an ED, sometimes you are sitting there with your feet up and a critical patient literally stumbles through the door like in the TV show.

3. Any system like this would be very unlikely to be cheap.

4. This network of volunteers you are suggesting would be a logistical nightmare. It would need to be staffed by enough people to be at the side of the doc in question whenever he/she was in house including people who "volunteered" to do things like stay up all night. There would need to be a sick call system with pagers distributed because any interruption in service could lead to disaster. This would likely require an administrative staffer working at least 20% of full time on this issue alone. Even coordinating lunch breaks would be a challenge.

5. There is also a huge assumption that these volunteers would display any sort of competency and consistency. You brought up the idea of using pre-meds, ok. Each of those students would need to have the technical training of a junior physician. There is a reason hospital volunteers push wheelchairs and don't assist in placing central lines in the unit. It would also be a credentialing and medico-legal nightmare (maybe L2D can comment on this further), essentially having the hospital (and each service attending) take responsibility not only for the actions of a quadriplegic doctor but also for the actions of a small army of untrained college students acting as clinical staff. So not only would the hospital have to be cool with it, each individual attending would have to accept that this system of disabled doc + college student was practicing under his or her license. I know what my answer would be.

6. Risk to the volunteers? What about on a call night when the quad and his college student respond to a code, the student starts doing a jaw thrust and the liver-failure patient vomits bright red blood into her face. The enthusiastic pre-med who has never seen anything like this promptly passes out and whacks her head on the tile floor. Now you have a head injury and a blood-borne pathogen exposure in a volunteer who was doing clinical duty. I don't even want to think about the legal implications. Plus now the volunteer is passed out on the floor and the quad doc is without.
 
AB and L2D, I hope you will forgive a joint reply. I get from your posts the following points -

1. You say you are experts in medical education, clinical rotations and residency training. Well, you obviously have been, or still are, the subjects of medical education, clinical rotations and residency training, which gives you a particular experience (n=2). That doesn't of itself make you an expert in those things, any more than suffering from a medical condition makes you an expert in that medical condition. I would hope that the people who admitted the OP as a medical student to Johns Hopkins are experts in medical education, clinical rotations and residency training and admitted him in the belief that he will be able to successfully complete them.

2. I haven't commented on the unlimited time for tests, and we don't know whether or not there was a grade curve. It was stated that the OP has come out of at least some exams in less than the time allowed for other students, with a reasonable assumption that would have been within the normal time allowed.

3. We don't know whether or not the OP could do chest compressions, or some of the other physical things you mention (holding down flailing legs and arms seems entirely possible for someone with full use of their arms, for instance). If not, and there are likely to be occasions where this is immediately essential, a reasonable adjustment would be to have someone with the OP who could do them as directed, on those occasions - time when this might be necessary would be scheduled and discernable in advance. It would be fairly cheap to provide someone with this limited level of expertise, in the overall scheme of things. It seems entirely possible that pre-meds or other volunteers would do it for free, in return for the shadowing/volunteering experience. So it doesn't have to be other residents who are affected by this, and in fact, from what you say, having other residents provide this assistance would be an inefficient and ineffective way of making the necessary adjustment for the OPs disability.

4. As for running around the hospital, have you seen how fast some people in wheelchairs can move? Have a look at the para-Olympics or a wheelchair marathon, where times are faster than the guys on two legs.

5. On the OPs description of his abilities with his hands, he said he had "missing hand function". I interpreted that, when I first read it, as meaning there were some things he couldn't do with his hands, which chimes with his later posts (and the prospect of surgery which would give him the strong grip). You may have interpreted it as "missing all hand function", which I don't think the OP meant, and based on my experience is not how I would have interpreted what he said.

Regarding #1, (a) someone who has already gone through med school and a chunk of residency knows more about the process than a premed. The whole n=2 argument is flawed because you are presuming that every med school/residency is so very different that the experiences of one person won't necessarily reflect the experiences of another. I think if you read through the med student and gen res boards, you will see that there is more that is similar than dissimilar in this largely standardized training. The AAMC and ACGME both require certain standard things in rotations and residency. So yeah, someone who has completed US allo rotations and is in a US allo residency can fairly comment on what OPs plight will be. (b) The folks who admitted OP have decided to make accommodations that will allow him to make it through their program. They aren't (and legally can't) warrant that he will get similar accommodations that will allow him to complete a residency. There have been folks in the past who got through med school with significant accommodations only to be told that residency was an impossibility. So effectively their med school training was a nice public interest story, but perhaps not a great use of resources. And your point doesn't really address whether these accommodations will unfairly impact his colleagues, just that the med school is willing to make them. Nobody here is suggesting that the school that accepted him won't give him an MD. We are suggesting that (i) he won't really complete the equivalent training if the accommodations are too significant, and (ii) his colleagues in the clinical years and residency are going to be impacted if he cannot be an equal member of a team.

(2) Not really my issue, I actually don't feel it has as much impact as AB seems to.

(3) You didn't really read my post -- I said holding down flailing limbs while AT THE SAME TIME doing something with the other hand (like a needle, a central line, a scalpel, an intubation tube). And you aren't going to find premed shadowers to stay with the OP overnight on call every call night. Not realistic or feasible. Nor is someone not being paid particularly reliable to show up 100% of the time, stay through the entire shift, only get 4 weekend days off a month, etc. And there are insurance costs involved for every person in the hospital who is involved in procedures, and forms to be filed for every such person (if you were thinking of doing multiple people throughout the year -- really a logistical nightmare). If the hospital wants to pony up money to pay someone and their insurance to be the OPs extra set of hands for 80 hours/week, then sure, that theoretically might work. But I really can't imaging a hospital that would do this when the option is simply to dump this work on a co-intern. And that's our point. If you cannot pull your weight, the hospital's remedy is to simply add the weight to someone else.

(4) You are assuming a single level hospital. Most aren't. And for codes, they don't like folks to wait for and use the elevator, particularly during high traffic times when there are multiple floor buttons already pushed when you get in. Have you seen how slow a wheelchair is in a stairwell (at least in going up)? Again, there are probably accommodations that would allow someone not to have patients on multiple floors, but this again puts the brunt of the labor on colleagues.

(5) Simply not accurate. The OP changed his story throughout this thread. AB and I called him out on it. It wasn't a case of our misinterpretation. It was a definite change, going from very limited hand use to significant hand use, perhaps once he realized he was going to lose the argument. Sorry but we aren't going to concede this one.

Again, the specifics of the OP are less interesting or important than the overall discussion. At what point do accommodations make the training so foreign that it's no longer equivalent, and to what extent should colleagues be unfairly carrying a member of the "team" who can't. Folks who can't do the job and have no physical disabilities get canned. We all know some. Is this really so different?
 
This also assumes that each clinical professor along the way is on board with this plan from the school of medicine.

Look at the objectives for the surgical clerkship at JHU.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/surgery/education/MedStu/CoreObj#knowledge

Scrubbing, gowning, gloving are required. So that means that professors of surgery will be required by the medical school to grade this student with a different set of standards? What if one of them is not on board and says, no, this student did not meet the requirements of the clerkship. Does the Dean of the SOM step in an over-ride the grade to make it passing?

Again I think the problem comes when another student is failed for say, not meeting the technical skills portion of a clerkship. A rare occurrence, but one that could happen. Does that student then appeal to the school and say, "clearly these grading standards are not universal, so my inability to maintain sterile technique in the operating room should not preclude my getting an honors in surgery."
 
We have admitted two quads (C5 and C7) in the past two years. Before that, we had a guy get a C7 injury after Step 1, and that individual is now a PM&R specialists. He's still wheel-chair bound and unable to do what is listed above.

About a decade ago we had a low thoracic level injury in a guy that went on to be a vascular surgeon. He could do a lot of things, but his scope of practice was limited by his ability to really get over a patient.
 
I am proud of myself because I waited nearly 24 hours before posting in this thread so I wouldn't give a crazy rant without purpose. Go me! 😎

I understand a lot of what is being said in this thread, on both sides of the fence. As a few of you may know, I am a para who was just accepted to medical school this cycle. While many of the issues that the OP will have in med school I am fortunate not to face (I have a T-12 injury from a rather clean gunshot wound, so my legs are truly the only thing not working), I have thought several times about a few of the issues L2D and Ab bring up.

I do believe that they sound hostile in a few posts, but this is a touchy subject, and it's hard to go from cheer-mode awesomeness to a reality that is perhaps a little more harshly presented than it could be.

1) Being an Olympian and Paralympian at a very young age (13) severely jaded me when it comes to the "Yay, you!" crowd. It actually made me start to feel worse about myself because it felt like they didn't realize I trained 6 hours a day 6 days a week to pull a 3.40 mile while holding a 4.0 , they only saw someone in a wheelchair who was inspiring other people in wheelchairs to not sit in bed and watch tv all day (I had that said to me a few times).

It feels like a blow to the stomach when someone tells me I can't do something because of my disability, and that is why my knee jerk reaction to some of the posts here was to rant angrily. However, I am a reasonable person. I know that I can't (on my own power)
a) walk
b) stand
c) climb stairs quickly (though I have climbed several flights of stairs in my chair before by strapping myself in and pulling up backwards on the handrail...but that was in my younger more "Jack***" living years). Going down stairs is not actually an issue if you have balance, gravity, and buns of steel, although I guarantee any hospital is going to be the one to axe the idea of a wheelchair going up and down stairs. 😉

2) I am a critical thinker, and I spent a lot of time brainstorming ways to accommodate myself. I talked about it a lot in the interview at the school I will be attending next year. I was particularly worried about not being at standing height and not being able to properly scrub in and move around in a sterile environment without compromising my hands. I found a company that makes sitting/standing electric wheelchairs that are about the same size as small manual wheelchairs. They said they could speed up the sitting/standing time to about 3 seconds, we agreed a sensitive mouth control would make it possible to keep sterile from the waist up and would also allow tilt where I could practically hover directly over the patient if necessary.

I was recently informed (by another mod actually) that there is a man in a wheelchair doing an anesthesiology residency up north, and lo and behold he uses the same type of equipment that I'm after. 👍

3) How I am able to respond to codes on different floors just terrifies the Hell outta me. I'm not going to lie. Short of a jet pack, or an amazingly fateful elevator, I am not getting to a different floor first. I am lucky to be able to totally jump on a bed and go to it on compressions if need be. I still work out, I transfer in an instant, and I am crazy fast in my chair so I'm not at all worried about codes on the same floor. I don't know how to resolve this in a "during intern year" situation. It's seriously the only thing I can't figure out, and in my opinion it's one of the most important.

In the end, there are a decent number of people in wheelchairs who make it through various med schools. A guy on here was accepted to UNC-Chapel Hill this cycle as well. I don't remember his disability, but I know it involves a wheelchair. I know 2 people out west who are currently med students in their 3rd year. It's possible, but there are definitely hurdles to overcome. I sincerely believe that learning to overcome those hurdles yourself is half the battle, and that's not really something that is often discussed in this post. Sure accommodations will need to be made, but maybe the OP (like myself) went into the process with a well-laid plan of how the accommodations would be done (by the student), leaving maybe only 1 or 2 accommodations left for the school/hospital.

Also, as a side note (because I know this type of thing came up in a recent post), there is a doc at ORMC (Orlando) who is in a chair and there are 2 nurses assigned to him at all times (though they do not necessarily need to be WITH him, it's just 2 in case one is out sick while he's in the hospital and needs assistance with something).

Sorry the post is so long. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone. 😉
 
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