Quadriplegic acceptance into medical school: please help!

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What gets to me is that when I ask for advice on what med schools will make accommodations, I get in return a million reasons why they shouldn't accept quadriplegics. This was not the intent of my question.
Besides, there are so many reasons why a quadriplegic would be a beneficial addition to the field of medicine.

Do not let the arrogance of a good number of the people on this board get to you. These are the same people who say you are worthless w/ sub 30 MCAT, community college credits, etc. They are the same people who will go on to careers in medicine speaking down to every patient that walks through the door.

Yes, you can do it. As this thread has shown, there are schools that are willing to accommodate you. Not only is this the right thing to do, it is the LAW.

The schools must make “reasonable accommodations” for those with disabilities. If there is even a single field in medicine where you can function effectively (which it is obvious from this thread that there is), then schools must accommodate you.

You are doing the right thing by doing your research here to see what schools might be willing to accommodate you. You also need to check out your legal options against those who are not willing. Nobody wants to be the one to sue. Still, your actions may open doors for those who follow in your path.

Have you contacted any groups for those with disabilities? They may have some insight with regard to your options.

Hold on to your dreams, or they will die.

Speaking of holding on to dreams, I went to a premed conference last year where one of the speakers was an MD prof from Dartmouth. His presentation was on nanotechnology. There is some CRAZY stuff coming, and it’s coming fast. Don’t count yourself on chances of recovery.

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The schools must make “reasonable accommodations” for those with disabilities.

maybe i'm the only one here that thinks this, but this is my contention:

the accommodations that would have to be made for a quadriplegic person to go through medical university would be so far beyond "reasonable accomodations" that it not only wouldn't break the law, but it would place undue burdens, both fiscal and non-fiscal, on every party involved in the accomodations process. furthermore, there would be several technical skills (and every med student knows what those are) that would not be able to be accomplished, so as to cause the quadriplegic to fail in the demonstration of said technical abilities. since every other student has to demonstrate mastery of certain skills, it would be very unfair to the rest of the student body. reasonable accommodation is pretty subjective, but there is a common sense factor, in my opinion.

again, should a blind person get pissed and file a lawsuit because an airline wont hire them? or does a mentally ******ed person have a case against the army because they can't join the special forces team? what about a person who has a job as a fragrance tester, then gets in a car wreck that wasn't his fault, and in the process shears his olfactory nerves - hey he can't smell anymore, therefore he can't be a fragrance tester. just because he cant smell it, **** happens, and responsible people recognize and assess their limitations, suck it up, and try, try, again. selfish bastards evidently have no qualms about inconveniencing everyone around them as long as they get their fair share. life may not be fair, but it better be fair to them, or they'll sue someone.
 
Obviously if it compromises the core of the education, then he shouldn't be accepted. But this is definitely a case-by-case thing.


i doubt that even a c7 would be able to proficiently do all of the required skills in med school.

but you make a good point. it should be on a case-by-case basis.
 
And I doubt many medical schools would blow him off before at least considering the issue.

You obviously didn't apply to the many places that actually sent out questionnaires inquiring as to your ability to do various physical, auditory and visual tasks necessary of a medical student and physician. This kind of application material was designed to cut off these issues at the pass. A number of schools use these.

It is not against the law to require folks who enter med school to be able to do the tasks deemed necessary in med school, give or take "reasonable" accommodations. But this standard is pretty weak in this case because if someone cannot do some of what are considered the "basics" of the clinical years, it's going to be legal to exclude them. For instance, if a school feels a physician needs to be able to do a full physical exam on his own (which includes testing musculoskeletal testing against resistance, lifting limbs, and the like), it's pretty reasonable to require every incoming med student to be able to do that. If a school considers participating in certain procedures to be an integral part of third year, it's not unreasonable to exclude people who cannot do those things. If part of residency is going to require a med student to be alone manning the wards overnight, then it only benefits someone to find out early on, at the med school level, that they are heading down a road they won't likely be able to handle. So sure, schools are going to need to make the school/hospital wheelchair accessible, etc., but at some point there is going to be a basic skillset that every potential admittee is going to have to be able to provide, and it won't be cerebral. Schools can do what they want, and may do it for a variety of reasons, including publicity. As can residencies, if they so choose. But the law doesn't preclude them from insisting that folks who come into med school have the basic skillsets necessary (give or take moest accomodation) to make it through the program and thereafter through residency. I have no idea what the OP can do (nor do I think this issue really needs to be about the OP; FWIW, as mentioned above there are quite a few inconsistencies in OP's story), or what various schools are willing to do in the way of accomodations. But I do know that someone without the ability to perform a full physical exam on his/her own, assist in surgery, do various procedures, and keep up on rounds which traversed a zillion stairwells, could not make it through the same med school experience as most people I know. Could a school revise all of third year to only require that which such a person could do and make everything else everyone else is required to do "not count"? Sure. Would a school do this? I don't know. Would a residency do this? Even less likely. Because residency is a job, and they make money off the residents productiveness. If someone isn't pulling their weight, able to stay overnight alone on the wards and manage all their patients physically on their own, run a code, put in an IV, a central line or a chest tube if needed, and do other various necessary procedures, then the person doesn't serve the needs of that job. Sorry to ramble, but all the "you can do it" folks on here seem to miss the point. This isn't about someone being mean and telling someone they can't achieve their dreams. This is about someone being nice and telling them what wall they are likely to come crashing into.
 
Good lord I hope you never have any obese patients. Just because people are obese doesn't mean it's because they sit around eating junk food and doing nothing all day. What about the patients with some sort of debilitating injury that prevents them from easily getting up and moving around?...or patients who's medicine causes weight gain?...should they stop taking it so they're thin? There are many reasons for obesity and if you're really that insensitive or ignorant to this, than I really pity any obese patient that ends up with you as their doctor.

In general, I eat around 1500 calories a day...I also play hockey 4-5 times a week and do a whole range of other activities...according to the government, I am obese. I live a pretty healthy lifestyle, but I'm not willing to go into starvation mode and try to kill myself just to be thin.

I'm going to make a few assumptions here. Since you play hockey I'm going to guess you are a guy, not that all hockey players are guys but do correct me if I'm wrong. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are on the tall side of average at 5'10".

Using a BMI calculator we see that to be considered "obese" (BMI>30) you would have to weigh at least 210 pounds. The following calculations assume you are 5'10", weigh #210 and are therefore obese.

Plugging you into a basal energy expenditure calculator we see that your daily caloric requirement is around 2600 kcal. Not only that, your basal energy expenditure is about 2100! That means to keep you ATPase turning, your heart pumping, and your brain thinking you need 2100 kcal per day.

Which means that your quoted figure of 1500 almost has to be wrong. You need 2100 just to stay alive, and you claim to be engaging in vigorous athletic activity 4-5 times a week? Sorry man, the math just doesn't work out.

If you want to give me more specific details about sex/height/weight I'll be happy to recalculate your BEE, but it won't change the overall picture.


http://www-users.med.cornell.edu/~spon/picu/calc/beecalc.htm
http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/
 
I'm going to make a few assumptions here. Since you play hockey I'm going to guess you are a guy, not that all hockey players are guys but do correct me if I'm wrong. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are on the tall side of average at 5'10".

Using a BMI calculator we see that to be considered "obese" (BMI>30) you would have to weigh at least 210 pounds. The following calculations assume you are 5'10", weigh #210 and are therefore obese.

Plugging you into a basal energy expenditure calculator we see that your daily caloric requirement is around 2600 kcal. Not only that, your basal energy expenditure is about 2100! That means to keep you ATPase turning, your heart pumping, and your brain thinking you need 2100 kcal per day.

Which means that your quoted figure of 1500 almost has to be wrong. You need 2100 just to stay alive, and you claim to be engaging in vigorous athletic activity 4-5 times a week? Sorry man, the math just doesn't work out.

If you want to give me more specific details about sex/height/weight I'll be happy to recalculate your BEE, but it won't change the overall picture.


http://www-users.med.cornell.edu/~spon/picu/calc/beecalc.htm
http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

Agreed here with regard to caloric intake.

I'm the first to say that BMI is not the end-all be-all of ascertaining someone's health. Its a decent guide within certain ranges but it really does not do well in the extremes of the spectrum. It works just fine for me but I'm 5'3. My husband is 6'5 and at 235 his BMI is 28.5, which is on the upper end of overweight, nearing obese. He's definitely lost some muscle mass since he switched from personal training to real estate, but he is not some big ball of blubber who can't get off the couch; he's still wearing his 36 waist with no problem (incidentally it is annoying to find 36 x 36 trousers). Even when he was training and consequently worked out 6 days a week (since he was at the gym anyway), his BMI was in the overweight range and he had less than 10% body fat.

That said, obese is not a term given "by the government." Its a medical term used to refer to individuals with a BMI that correlates with a statistically higher risk of all sorts of medical issues. Unless your diet and exercise plan has been evaluated by a doctor/nutritionist/other suitable professional, I'd very strongly suggest that anyone with a BMI in the "obese range" make an appointment with a professional to confirm that your lifestyle is healthy.
 
I'm going to make a few assumptions here. Since you play hockey I'm going to guess you are a guy, not that all hockey players are guys but do correct me if I'm wrong. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are on the tall side of average at 5'10".

Using a BMI calculator we see that to be considered "obese" (BMI>30) you would have to weigh at least 210 pounds. The following calculations assume you are 5'10", weigh #210 and are therefore obese.

Plugging you into a basal energy expenditure calculator we see that your daily caloric requirement is around 2600 kcal. Not only that, your basal energy expenditure is about 2100! That means to keep you ATPase turning, your heart pumping, and your brain thinking you need 2100 kcal per day.

Which means that your quoted figure of 1500 almost has to be wrong. You need 2100 just to stay alive, and you claim to be engaging in vigorous athletic activity 4-5 times a week? Sorry man, the math just doesn't work out.

Actually I'm female, 5'7", I just happen to have a large frame and am fairly muscular (a bit too much for my liking). BMI doesn't really work for me...according to the chart, my ideal weight is 153 lbs...not EVER going to happen. I don't necessarily look obese, but according to whoever it is that sets the standards, I am.
 
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You obviously didn't apply to the many places that actually sent out questionnaires inquiring as to your ability to do various physical, auditory and visual tasks necessary of a medical student and physician. This kind of application material was designed to cut off these issues at the pass. A number of schools use these.

It is not against the law to require folks who enter med school to be able to do the tasks deemed necessary in med school, give or take "reasonable" accommodations. But this standard is pretty weak in this case because if someone cannot do some of what are considered the "basics" of the clinical years, it's going to be legal to exclude them. For instance, if a school feels a physician needs to be able to do a full physical exam on his own (which includes testing musculoskeletal testing against resistance, lifting limbs, and the like), it's pretty reasonable to require every incoming med student to be able to do that. If a school considers participating in certain procedures to be an integral part of third year, it's not unreasonable to exclude people who cannot do those things. If part of residency is going to require a med student to be alone manning the wards overnight, then it only benefits someone to find out early on, at the med school level, that they are heading down a road they won't likely be able to handle. So sure, schools are going to need to make the school/hospital wheelchair accessible, etc., but at some point there is going to be a basic skillset that every potential admittee is going to have to be able to provide, and it won't be cerebral. Schools can do what they want, and may do it for a variety of reasons, including publicity. As can residencies, if they so choose. But the law doesn't preclude them from insisting that folks who come into med school have the basic skillsets necessary (give or take moest accomodation) to make it through the program and thereafter through residency. I have no idea what the OP can do (nor do I think this issue really needs to be about the OP; FWIW, as mentioned above there are quite a few inconsistencies in OP's story), or what various schools are willing to do in the way of accomodations. But I do know that someone without the ability to perform a full physical exam on his/her own, assist in surgery, do various procedures, and keep up on rounds which traversed a zillion stairwells, could not make it through the same med school experience as most people I know. Could a school revise all of third year to only require that which such a person could do and make everything else everyone else is required to do "not count"? Sure. Would a school do this? I don't know. Would a residency do this? Even less likely. Because residency is a job, and they make money off the residents productiveness. If someone isn't pulling their weight, able to stay overnight alone on the wards and manage all their patients physically on their own, run a code, put in an IV, a central line or a chest tube if needed, and do other various necessary procedures, then the person doesn't serve the needs of that job. Sorry to ramble, but all the "you can do it" folks on here seem to miss the point. This isn't about someone being mean and telling someone they can't achieve their dreams. This is about someone being nice and telling them what wall they are likely to come crashing into.

Hello again. Surprised to see this thread come back.

Medicine isn’t just about motor skills. It’s about observation, communication, intellect, self-assessment, and professionalism skills as well. Integrating all of that into a cohesive whole is what makes one a successful physician.

You cannot deny that there are a fair number of physicians with disabilities out there practicing. Some experienced their disability during training, some before, some after. They all serve as evidence that disabled physicians can be successful. As you said yourself, you don’t know what the OP is capable of. I think you mentioned in another thread a girl who superficially seemed very…superficial. Yet this girl rocked every exam. Appearances can be deceiving.

Did you honestly think you could perform every procedure taught to you successfully first time out? Or did you have to practice? Why wouldn’t you grant the OP that opportunity to practice? Now if they can’t run a code, they will have to deal with the consequences. I’m sure a percentage of your able bodied classmates can’t run a code either. Point is - you didn't know who wouldn't be able to run a code prior to admission to med school.

As far as "reasonable" accomodations...I will admit that some individuals, institutions, and programs are more "unreasonable" than others. And this unfortunately will be a significant barrier that the OP will have to deal with.

Question for the medical students here: how much of your curriculum was devoted to disability? I ask because your are all going to treat a patient with a disability at some point. Studies show that healthcare providers are generally more negative towards a disabled patient’s abilities or quality of life than the disabled patient is towards him/herself. Some education might serve to lessen that gap.
 
You are all silly! Medical school does require in the 3rd and 4th year some degree of ability to perform physical diagnosis on patients. That being said a school might be willing to accommodate a student who has a significant disability if a case can be made. You simply need to contact the school and see if they are willing to do it. I think walderness should keep on trucking and trying. However, I think that it is silly to have this discussion because it is almost a pre-requisite for medical school.
 
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Actually I'm female, 5'7", I just happen to have a large frame and am fairly muscular (a bit too much for my liking). BMI doesn't really work for me...according to the chart, my ideal weight is 153 lbs...not EVER going to happen. I don't necessarily look obese, but according to whoever it is that sets the standards, I am.

BMI is a number that must be understood in context, obviously someone stacked with muscle could be "overweight" by BMI while being extremely healthy. It is very useful for the average joe/jane who is not overly muscular.

I stand corrected on sex/height/weight. Using same calculators as before:

-must be 190# to be considered "obese" as a 5'7" female.
-BEE is about 1800 kcal

On a 1500 kcal/day diet you would be wasting away and unable to cross-check with any degree of effectiveness.

What are we missing about your story?
 
bmi might work for large populations due to a "dillution" factor, but can really suck for individuals that are either very muscular or very fat. body fat estimations are a way better way to measure the body composition component of health related fitness, in my opinion.

for example:
i am a 5'9" male, and i weigh 210 lbs. this puts my bmi at 31 and my classification at obesity class I.

on the other hand, my last bodyfat measurement by hydrostatic weighing, the gold standard of body comp measurement, was 15 percent. i wear 34 waist jeans. hardly what i would call overweight, much less obese.

after doing body comp research for a year in undergrad, i learned to dislike bmi as not very useful for a large portion of the population, which makes bmi hardly useful at all, in my book.

as far as the caloric debate y'all are having, who knows, maybe the person has some weird problem. there's no possible way to absolutely predict that a person will lose weight with a change in diet or an exercise routine.

i do, however, strongly agree that, for the vast majority of people, exercising and spending more calories than you consume makes it pretty tough NOT to burn away a lot of that fat. i was a professional trainer for several years and have seen it up close and personal with my own eyes. with some very important exceptions, obese people are obese because of lifestyle.

oh btw... isn't this post about quadriplegics in med school?
 
Most schools do not except quadriplegics into their M.D. program due to technical standards that require that fine motor skills are intact.

I am a perfect candidate except the fact that I am a quadriplegic (I'm allowed some immodesty due to the fact that I'm in a wheelchair).

Albert Einstein is the only school I know that does not hold applicants to the standard.

But I need to know pronto of many other schools that may be lax in this respect. I've been in contact with AMCAS and other resources but ended up with little guidance.

Help! I want to send in my application as quickly as possible. Thank you in advance.

Hey walderness,

First off, I want to wish you luck with the entire process. I didn't read through this entire thread because it was way too long, but I did read some of the replies to your question. I wanted to point out what the Rosalind Franklind University said in its secondary application:

Technical Standards
The Americans with Disabilities Act
[FONT=Arial,Arial]The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), enacted in July of 1990, protects any individual with a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits that person in some major life activity and any individual who has a history of, or is regarded as having, such an impairment. Under the ADA, as with Section 504 of the Vocational Rehabilitation Act, universities and colleges are prohibited from discriminating against an otherwise qualified person with a disability in all aspects of academic life. Schools must make reasonable accommodations for the known physical or mental disabilities of otherwise qualified individuals. The University need not make an accommodation that would cause an undue burden. The philosophical basis of the ADA, that judging persons on their abilities and achievements rather than their potential disabilities, runs parallel to the traditional philosophy of this University. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]In order to define the "essential requirements" of its medical curriculum, Chicago Medical School has developed a list of Technical Standards of behavior for the undifferentiated physician. In decisions on admission, evaluation, promotion, and graduation of any person, and especially an applicant or student with a disability, it is the obligation of the student to meet these minimum technical standards, with or without reasonable accommodation. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]For further information on these Technical Standards and the procedures for their implementation, interested persons are encouraged to contact Ms. Rebecca Durkin, ADA Coordinator at (847) 578-8354 or [email protected]. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]A candidate for the MD degree must possess abilities and skills which include those that are observational, communicational, motor, intellectual-conceptual (integrative and quantitative), and behavioral and social. The use of a trained intermediary is not acceptable in many clinical situations in that it implies that a candidate's judgment must be mediated by someone else's power of selection and observation. .


I do not know what kind of accomodations they make, but since they openly say they are open to students with disabilities, I think you should give them a call.

Hope everything works out for you. Good luck!
 
Hey walderness,

First off, I want to wish you luck with the entire process. I didn't read through this entire thread because it was way too long, but I did read some of the replies to your question. I wanted to point out what the Rosalind Franklind University said in its secondary application:

Technical Standards
The Americans with Disabilities Act
[FONT=Arial,Arial]The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), enacted in July of 1990, protects any individual with a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits that person in some major life activity and any individual who has a history of, or is regarded as having, such an impairment. Under the ADA, as with Section 504 of the Vocational Rehabilitation Act, universities and colleges are prohibited from discriminating against an otherwise qualified person with a disability in all aspects of academic life. Schools must make reasonable accommodations for the known physical or mental disabilities of otherwise qualified individuals. The University need not make an accommodation that would cause an undue burden. The philosophical basis of the ADA, that judging persons on their abilities and achievements rather than their potential disabilities, runs parallel to the traditional philosophy of this University. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]In order to define the "essential requirements" of its medical curriculum, Chicago Medical School has developed a list of Technical Standards of behavior for the undifferentiated physician. In decisions on admission, evaluation, promotion, and graduation of any person, and especially an applicant or student with a disability, it is the obligation of the student to meet these minimum technical standards, with or without reasonable accommodation. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]For further information on these Technical Standards and the procedures for their implementation, interested persons are encouraged to contact Ms. Rebecca Durkin, ADA Coordinator at (847) 578-8354 or [email protected]. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]A candidate for the MD degree must possess abilities and skills which include those that are observational, communicational, motor, intellectual-conceptual (integrative and quantitative), and behavioral and social. The use of a trained intermediary is not acceptable in many clinical situations in that it implies that a candidate's judgment must be mediated by someone else's power of selection and observation. .


I do not know what kind of accomodations they make, but since they openly say they are open to students with disabilities, I think you should give them a call.

Hope everything works out for you. Good luck!

On reading the above bolded provisions, I would have argued that actually this school is more explicit in terms of what it expects a future physician to be able to do without accommodations, not more open to them. A lot of schools spell out requirements in this way.
 
...

Medicine isn't just about motor skills. It's about observation, communication, intellect, self-assessment, and professionalism skills as well. Integrating all of that into a cohesive whole is what makes one a successful physician.
...
Did you honestly think you could perform every procedure taught to you successfully first time out? Or did you have to practice? Why wouldn't you grant the OP that opportunity to practice? Now if they can't run a code, they will have to deal with the consequences. I'm sure a percentage of your able bodied classmates can't run a code either. Point is - you didn't know who wouldn't be able to run a code prior to admission to med school.
...

Of course it's not just about motor skills, but that is part of the "cohesive whole" you describe. It's also not just about mental skills. If you can't do both you are SOL.

And the point isn't that you can do every procedure the first time out. Nobody can. If you already could, you wouldn't need med school. But you get better the second or third time and eventually need to be able to do that on your own. If you lack the physical capacity to ever do something, it's not a matter of practice, it's a matter of impossibility. If you lack ability to use your arms, or lack manual dexterity, you simply won't be able to put in an IV, maintain an airway, put in a chest tube, or do a complete physical examination, no matter how much you practice. And a team can't tell such an intern, "you are on call tonight, see you in the morning" and expect such a person to deal with the various IV's that fall out and nurses can't find a vein, folks that need emergent face-masking or intubation, folks who need an emergent chest tube as their lung collapses, and the other host of things you might get called to a patient's room to address overnight. In early residency you don't get to be the brains of the operation -- you are the grunt. When on call, you run and do all the bedside procedures, and try to keep all the patients alive until you are relieved the following morning. Sure there's a learning curve for everyone, but that assumes you have the underlying ability to ultimately be able to perform such tasks physically. You miss the point in your above post -- nobody cares that the person won't know how to run a code before med school, but we can reasonably estimate who lacks the physical capacity to ever be able to put in lines, facemask a patient, and do good chest compressions. An able bodied person can generally be taught to do all of these things well, even though they start out knowing nothing. Someone whose upper body strength or dexterity is lacking most likely can't. And med school seats are too much of a limited commodity to play "let's see" as you seem to be suggesting.

At any rate, I think this thread has run it's course, again. Schools can make whatever accommodations they choose, but aren't obligated to do too much if the person cannot perform the basics. And residencies are going to be far less willing to make such accommodations because they actually need each resident to pull his/her own weight -- it is a job and each person is now limited to a maximum of 80 hours/week (average) that the hospital is allowed to exploit. Which means that teammates are going to be even less able to help pick up the slack of various procedures a disabled resident cannot do.
 
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bmi might work for large populations due to a "dillution" factor, but can really suck for individuals that are either very muscular or very fat. body fat estimations are a way better way to measure the body composition component of health related fitness, in my opinion.

for example:
i am a 5'9" male, and i weigh 210 lbs. this puts my bmi at 31 and my classification at obesity class I.

on the other hand, my last bodyfat measurement by hydrostatic weighing, the gold standard of body comp measurement, was 15 percent. i wear 34 waist jeans. hardly what i would call overweight, much less obese.

after doing body comp research for a year in undergrad, i learned to dislike bmi as not very useful for a large portion of the population, which makes bmi hardly useful at all, in my book.

as far as the caloric debate y'all are having, who knows, maybe the person has some weird problem. there's no possible way to absolutely predict that a person will lose weight with a change in diet or an exercise routine.

i do, however, strongly agree that, for the vast majority of people, exercising and spending more calories than you consume makes it pretty tough NOT to burn away a lot of that fat. i was a professional trainer for several years and have seen it up close and personal with my own eyes. with some very important exceptions, obese people are obese because of lifestyle.

oh btw... isn't this post about quadriplegics in med school?

I'd really like to hear you elaborate on this a little bit.

First of all on your own situation, if you are as you describe yourself you are either very muscular or you are obese.

Secondly as to BMI in general. I'm not sure of a population to whom BMI cannot be applied other than the very muscular. Obviously we as clinicians and people with common sense can look at the NFL running back stacked with muscle and say, "that person is neither out of shape or obese." But even among active, athletic adults very few people are going to have enough muscle mass to meaningful skew BMI measurements.

To put it another way, I think if you took a cross section of the population with BMI>30 you would find less than 5% and probably less than 1% for whom an obese level BMI was a false positive.
 
I'd really like to hear you elaborate on this a little bit.

First of all on your own situation, if you are as you describe yourself you are either very muscular or you are obese.

Secondly as to BMI in general. I'm not sure of a population to whom BMI cannot be applied other than the very muscular. Obviously we as clinicians and people with common sense can look at the NFL running back stacked with muscle and say, "that person is neither out of shape or obese." But even among active, athletic adults very few people are going to have enough muscle mass to meaningful skew BMI measurements.

To put it another way, I think if you took a cross section of the population with BMI>30 you would find less than 5% and probably less than 1% for whom an obese level BMI was a false positive.



ok, so yes i am very muscular and that throws off my bmi, big time.

what i am getting at is that, while not in the majority, people like me, and even people that workout enough to have dropped bf% and increased lean tissue (muscle and bone), will have a skewed bmi. so if you walk into a serious gym with serious members, whether that be a weight gym, basketball gym, martial arts gym, gymnastics, etc, and took bmis on everybody, they would be artificially high.

what i meant by dillution factor, is that i don't know what to name the phenomenon that occurs when you measure LARGE populations of people, and you get a bmi average that seems to work fairly well. it seems that the muscular people that measure high, and the anorexic or "skinny fat" people that measure low, may simultaneously be corrected by both cancelling each other out and by the rest of the population.

whether this "dillution factor" is true or not, i dont know.

what i do know is that, for a year, i was one of the researchers on a project dealing with body composition. this project was funded by GE and we used the newest generation DEXA scanning machines plus, hydrostatic weighing, plethysmography, bioelectrical impedance (and not those stupid hand-held or step on scales either), anthropometric measurements including caliper skinfold measurements, as well as waist/hip ratio and body mass index. i participated in measuring close to n=1000 participants from a huge spectrum of the population: old people, young, middle aged, male, female, fat and fit, plus a sub-population of competetive athletes.

besides the fact that plethysmography sucks really badly (those machines are so tempermental), body mass index was the winner of being the measurement that was the least consistent. and i'm sure that i don't have to say it was the most prominent among the athletes and the fit people. it was also off in some of the old people with low bone mineral density and low muscle mass (skinny fat), but of course they measured low bmis as compared to their body fat percentage.

the project should be totally finished in the next year or so and published as a series of posters before the journal articles. seing as how the main objective of the research was to set bodyfat norms for DEXA, the fact that bmi kind of sucks may not be a huge part of the discussion - although, i'm sure that it will be mentioned that bmi is an outdated method of measuring body composition and that it can be very inaccurate in quite a few circumstances.

furthermore, i was a professional trainer for many years before med school, and i performed lots and lots of anthropometric bodyfat measurements on many of my clients. also, my undergraduate major was kinesiology and we had a really nice human physiology lab, where i was one of the leaders of the fitness assessment program where we did fitness tests (including bmi and hydrostatic weighing) on fit and unfit students, faculty, alumni, and even community residents.

so, i also saw, first hand, the inaccuracy of bmi in tons of people that i either personally measured, or supervised the measurement of, in these situations. bottom line is that although bmi can be right, it can also miss the mark in many people. the problem is that, unless you have the person in front of you in their underwear so you can really tell their body morphology (and even then you can't tell for sure about their bone density), you can't tell for which people the bmi will be wrong. sometimes way wrong. and if you DO happen to have a person in front of you in their underwear, so you can see their morphology, why the heck do you need bmi to tell you what you can already tell by looking at them???

this is why i just usually shrug my shoulders and say, 'whatever' when people talk about bmi as a way of measuring body comp. i think it pretty much sucks, since it can be off in more people than you give it credit for.

of course if there is a usmle question talking about a 45 year old smoker with a bmi of 40, i know that they're not talking about a bodybuilder, so i'll assume she's obesity class III. eventually (probably many years), we'll get rid of this crappy measurement and use body fat%. i hope.
 
ok, so yes i am very muscular and that throws off my bmi, big time.

what i am getting at is that, while not in the majority, people like me, and even people that workout enough to have dropped bf% and increased lean tissue (muscle and bone), will have a skewed bmi. so if you walk into a serious gym with serious members, whether that be a weight gym, basketball gym, martial arts gym, gymnastics, etc, and took bmis on everybody, they would be artificially high...

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the extended post.

I still maintain that BMI is an excellent tool for the vast majority of patients. Your point about seeing people in their underwear is well taken -- do we really even need this objective measure?

The answer is probably "yes." I don't have the data in front of my but I have seen good numbers that people who are overweight tend to think they are closer to IBW than they are and that people who are obese tend to think they are in the "overweight" category.

A fun (if sad) game to play on your PDA is to get a BMI calculator and then try to guage people walking into clinic on your family med / internal med rotations. You find yourself saying, "oh that person just looks a little pudgy" then when you plug in their BMI it's like 29.5 -- nearly obese!

Bottom line that I think we can agree on: a useful number that needs careful interpretation.
 
I still maintain that BMI is an excellent tool for the vast majority of patients...

Bottom line that I think we can agree on: a useful number that needs careful interpretation.

as much as i want to stubbornly contend that bmi is still a crappy tool...

i totally concede that you have undoubtedly seen hundreds more patients than i have - which means that you probably have a pretty good 'big picture' of the usefulness of bmi in a hospital setting, at least a better picture than i. i still may not like it now, but i'll give it a fair shot and i'll get back to you in 6 years when i'm chief resident of the emergency department...

i will also agree that bmi may be a useful number for some people - it is practically a free measurement since you already have ht/wt - only if, like you say, it is interpreted carefully.

another interesting game might be:
calculate a patient's bmi before you meet them, then compare your preconceived idea of their body comp, with their actual morphology.

i bet if you saw my bmi first, youd' think, "oh great, fat slob coming in." then when you saw me, you'd think, "um, how the heck am i gonna get the bp cuff around that arm?" (sorry, all, for the immodesty, but bp cuffs and me really don't get along too well:cool:)
 
I don't have the data in front of my but I have seen good numbers that people who are overweight tend to think they are closer to IBW than they are and that people who are obese tend to think they are in the "overweight" category.

btw, i've seen this too - another point for you
 
Thought I would update everyone as to my progress...I am a C7 applying to medical school.

I have had 6 interview invites, 2 of which came from top 5 medical schools in the country, according to US News.

I have been accepted to Johns Hopkins. Waiting on others...

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. And to those attempting to discourage me, I don't blame you, I blame your ignorance. It's sad that a community meant to share and encourage can turn so ugly sometimes...you don't see that in other forums as much.

Every doctor I met on adcoms balked at some requirements in the technical standards. All very encouraging...

I also have met many quad doctors along the way, all the way from C5-C7....this was awesome...I actually found the process of application very inspiring, which is not supposed to happen!

Again, thanks everyone for the inspiring words and maybe I'll meet some of you along the way! Already got a good dose of shemarty ;)
 
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Thought I would update everyone as to my progress...I am a C7 applying to medical school.

I have had 6 interview invites, 2 of which came from top 5 medical schools in the country, according to US News.

I have been accepted to Johns Hopkins. Waiting on others...

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. And to those attempting to discourage me, I don't blame you, I blame your ignorance. It's sad that a community meant to share and encourage can turn so ugly sometimes...you don't see that in other forums as much.

Every doctor I met on adcoms balked at some requirements in the technical standards. All very encouraging...

I also have met many quad doctors along the way, all the way from C5-C7....this was awesome...I actually found the process of application very inspiring, which is not supposed to happen!

Again, thanks everyone for the inspiring words and maybe I'll meet some of you along the way! Already got a good dose of shemarty ;)

Congrats walderness; you absolutely deserved it. I wish you all the best with the rest of your apps (although JHU should be good enough ;))
 
I remember you well. Congratulations!

Best wishes along the way. Please keep us informed of how it goes, both the positives and negatives. It could make a wonderfully worthwhile blog. We even have a blog section here, that could be used for that.
 
Congrats walderness. You rock!:thumbup:
 
yay go walderness!!! congratulations
 
Thought I would update everyone as to my progress...I am a C7 applying to medical school.

I have had 6 interview invites, 2 of which came from top 5 medical schools in the country, according to US News.

I have been accepted to Johns Hopkins. Waiting on others...

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. And to those attempting to discourage me, I don't blame you, I blame your ignorance. It's sad that a community meant to share and encourage can turn so ugly sometimes...you don't see that in other forums as much.

Every doctor I met on adcoms balked at some requirements in the technical standards. All very encouraging...

I also have met many quad doctors along the way, all the way from C5-C7....this was awesome...I actually found the process of application very inspiring, which is not supposed to happen!

Again, thanks everyone for the inspiring words and maybe I'll meet some of you along the way! Already got a good dose of shemarty ;)
Congratulations walderness! That is an amazing accomplishment!

You know, following this thread really irritated me since most people used it as a soapbox for mouthing off their opinions on whether or not you should be in medical school... instead of actually addressing your friggin question of HOW to help you get in.

Now get as much rest as you can, because you gotta prepare for some serious studying in the near future. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
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Congratulations. Keep us informed on your experience. It should be very interesting.
 
wow... I wish I had an ounce of your determination. Best of luck in medical school, doc =)
 
Wow, that's absolutely incredible. I just read through this thread for the first time and it really annoyed me. Glad to see that you've been accepted to a better school than those mouthing off could probably ever dream of attending.

Congratulations, man. You really deserve it.
 
I just saw this thread for the first time, and got really inspired and touched by your determination and faith in yourself! :thumbup:
Congratulations!!! :p
 
Congratulations walderness! That is an amazing accomplishment!

You know, following this thread really irritated me since most people used this thread as a soapbox for mouthing off on their opinions of whether or not you should be in medical school... instead of just addressing your friggin question of HOW to help you get in

Now get as much rest as you can, because you gotta prepare for some serious studying in the near future. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

oh_snap.jpg
 
congratulations on your acceptance! That's really great news. :)
 
Truly an amazing accomplishment! Please keep us posted about your wonderful journey now and in the future.

:bow::bow::bow::bow:
 
thanks everyone.

ejay...love the pic...fits the situation and my feelings i must say...
 
Wow, that's absolutely incredible. I just read through this thread for the first time and it really annoyed me. Glad to see that you've been accepted to a better school than those mouthing off could probably ever dream of attending.

Congratulations, man. You really deserve it.

Wow so true. Man, its so sad but some so called experts in medical education r very prob gonna make horrible doctors. I mean they literarily tried to shut the guy down what the heck
 
I already congratulated you via PM, but I'll say it here to: congratulations!!! Also, just out of curosity, what technical requirements did the physician adcom members balk at?
 
Congrats dude. You didn't let anyone stop you from your dream. As a suggestion, I think your story has the makings of a great book. Keep a journal and look into penning your memoirs when your journey is done. All the best.
 
bmi might work for large populations due to a "dillution" factor, but can really suck for individuals that are either very muscular or very fat. body fat estimations are a way better way to measure the body composition component of health related fitness, in my opinion.

for example:
i am a 5'9" male, and i weigh 210 lbs. this puts my bmi at 31 and my classification at obesity class I.

on the other hand, my last bodyfat measurement by hydrostatic weighing, the gold standard of body comp measurement, was 15 percent. i wear 34 waist jeans. hardly what i would call overweight, much less obese.

after doing body comp research for a year in undergrad, i learned to dislike bmi as not very useful for a large portion of the population, which makes bmi hardly useful at all, in my book.

as far as the caloric debate y'all are having, who knows, maybe the person has some weird problem. there's no possible way to absolutely predict that a person will lose weight with a change in diet or an exercise routine.

i do, however, strongly agree that, for the vast majority of people, exercising and spending more calories than you consume makes it pretty tough NOT to burn away a lot of that fat. i was a professional trainer for several years and have seen it up close and personal with my own eyes. with some very important exceptions, obese people are obese because of lifestyle.

oh btw... isn't this post about quadriplegics in med school?

Alfonz... I'm in the same boat as you, my BMI is apparently 30.6 (5'8" 201lbs), but my body fat percentage can't be any higher than 12-14%. I lift 6 days a week, I ride my bike over 50 miles in any given week(yes including winter).

I'm wondering whether or not because my BMI is 30.6, does that still correlate with higher incidences of these diseases? I'm assuming these studies were done with correlation in the first place...? What is a good body fat percentage to shoot for to be very healthy?

Anyway... Aside from that, concerning the OP and the ACTUAL topic:

I don't understand why they can't interview you and have an extended interview to see your abilities? You might have to pay slightly more... but I'm assuming this could be done by some faculty... Are people just being lazy?
 
good lord. i'm with you, walderness. the whole point of medicine is to evolve to achieve a better outcome, and i don't see why this can't apply to admission standards. isn't the whole idea to test the guidelines to see if we can't shape them in a better way? my guess is that most would be lenient on specifics when they understand an individual situation.

here's a resource you might check out: http://www.ncsd.org/medschools.htm



aaand after finally reading some bits in the middle of the thread, congrats on your acceptance!
 
good lord. i'm with you, walderness. the whole point of medicine is to evolve to achieve a better outcome, and i don't see why this can't apply to admission standards.

Medicine is for the patients, not the doctors.

I don't think folks in this thread tried to shut down the OP, they indicated that OP might have difficulty in med school and residency, and that someplace would have to make accommodations, because many places expressly require folks to be able to perform certain tasks that OP indicates he cannot do. That is still the case.

OP, to his credit has gotten past the first hurdle, but there will be others.
Congrats, OP. Please be sure to keep posting with respect to your experiences, while in school and beyond. Good luck.
 
Now the real work begins. Good luck and wish you the best. I'm sure in 10 years I'll see some heartwarming news story about some doctor stud that overcame the odds and I'll remember this thread. Its good to see people that don't make excuses and strive to do their best.
 
Good job walderness. It's good to see people never giving up their dream.
 
Walderness, admiration and inspiration are not powerful enough words to express my opinion. Congratulations, I hope you consider the book idea another poster suggested!
 
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