Quadriplegic acceptance into medical school: please help!

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I view a para with full use of arm function to be a totally different situation. Still not ideal but in a different league.

If L2D and I sound "hostile" it's because we are thinking about being the interns working along side this guy and taking on extra work for which we did not sign up. Is anyone going to do a human interest story in the med school newsletter about the guy who did a ward month with the quad doc and did 40% more work than usual? I know I, and I'm guessing L2D, have worked alongside poorly functioning residents and it sucks sucks sucks. You just have to pick up slack and keep your mouth shut. No one ever acknowledges what is going on, and you just have to suck it up and work harder.

One of my co-residents as an intern was on a rotation and was on a 2 intern team. One of the sister teams had a single intern who was just terrible. So guess what? They split up the 2 intern team and my fellow resident's workload doubled overnight while the bad intern's workload diminished significantly. That's how that works, and you don't get a little extra in the check that month.

Being told you can't do something because of some way that you are is part of life. I would have loved to be a professional athlete (seriously, I'm not just being sarcastic). My hand-eye coordination, speed, and reaction times make this impossible.
 
You know, I'm going to go ahead and side with the residents on this issue. It's not a popular stance because this guy's fortitude and drive is definitely commendable. But there's a difference between being inspired and having to work with the guy. That being said, there are 2 ways you can really look at this: 1. from the view of the disabled person and 2. from the view of other residents.

For #1 if I was a para/quad and I wanted that much to be a doctor, I'd say screw you all too and go ahead with my path. That's definitely commendable and I can understand that point of view. HOWEVER,

for #2, I'm imagining myself as the resident that may be working with him. I'm going to be tired, I'm going to be overworked and I'm going to probably be pretty cranky. Suddenly I have to put in MORE work because some dude can't pull his own weight (and I'm not talking about just a quad, someone who's lazy also)? That's really just unfair to ME. That sounds selfish but if I have to choose between me and someone else, I'll usually choose me unless there are extenuating circumstances.
 
couldn't the hospital give you elevator override keys? that would solve the floors situation pretty well i'd think.
 
Jesus christ, reading this thread blew my mind. All respect in the world for you, walderness. Your life and career is and will be truely a remarkable journey.
 
I view a para with full use of arm function to be a totally different situation. ...

Agreed. If you can pull your own weight (in this case literally), I don't think there's even an issue. The concern for the residents on this thread is where your "reasonable accommodation" becomes simply making the rest of the team do your work. That would be the situation where someone can't be left alone on call, can't do most procedures, can't do the manual portions of a physical exam, can't help in a code, etc. as the OP (as he originally described his situation with very limited manual dexterity) would likely be in. Someone able to pull themselves onto a patient's bed and start chest compressions, and who has the manual dexterity to throw in lines, and has use of his upper extremities on exams wouldn't require the same degree of accommodations.
 
couldn't the hospital give you elevator override keys? that would solve the floors situation pretty well i'd think.

Depends on the set up of the hospital, how many elevators it has, who else needs to use the elevators, etc. Won't be ideal if when you call the elevator with your override during a high traffic hour it shows up with no room for someone in a wheelchair, or is full of patients on gurneys, or food delivery carts, and you have to start having it emptied out for you to fit in. Also it's not unheard of for equipment to be moved from another floor for a Code and you'd hate to override the elevator for yourself at the expense of something the folks already running the code need more.
 
Old thread but gotta say congrats to the OP on acceptance to JHU!! You did it!

Yes, he can! Yes, he can! 👍
 
Old thread but gotta say congrats to the OP on acceptance to JHU!! You did it!

Yes, he can! Yes, he can! 👍

The real test for all the non-resident cheerleaders posting on this thread is not whether or not you can post encouraging comments on an internet forum, but what you say when a quadriplegic student with "some" hand function wheels into your room in the ER and says "hi, I'm student doctor Smith and I'll be stitching you up today."

Or, what you say when grandma is in the ICU circling the drain from septic shock and the doctor on duty is obviously severely incapacitated.

Medicine is serious business folks.
 
Being told you can't do something because of some way that you are is part of life.
qft

It's clear that OP's story and situation draw out the best of people's compassion. But not necessarily the best of everyone's rational thinking.

What if OP said he realized his life's mission was to be a fighter pilot? Or a fireman? A dentist? A plumber? Or, a professional athlete as AB mentioned.
 
...
What if OP said he realized his life's mission was to be a fighter pilot? Or a fireman? A dentist? A plumber? Or, a professional athlete as AB mentioned.

Right. The only real difference here is that most premeds have a good sense of what's involved in work as a fireman, a pro- athlete etc, but are pretty fuzzy on what is involved in residency. The couple of residents on here are suggesting that there's a physical component involved, while the folks who never set foot in an ICU seem content to ignorantly believe that it's 99% cerebral and that you can always direct some underling to do your job for the remaining 1%. So yeah, there's a lot of ignorance on this thread, but it is not coming from the naysayers.
 
You know, I'm going to go ahead and side with the residents on this issue. It's not a popular stance because this guy's fortitude and drive is definitely commendable. But there's a difference between being inspired and having to work with the guy. That being said, there are 2 ways you can really look at this: 1. from the view of the disabled person and 2. from the view of other residents.

For #1 if I was a para/quad and I wanted that much to be a doctor, I'd say screw you all too and go ahead with my path. That's definitely commendable and I can understand that point of view. HOWEVER,

for #2, I'm imagining myself as the resident that may be working with him. I'm going to be tired, I'm going to be overworked and I'm going to probably be pretty cranky. Suddenly I have to put in MORE work because some dude can't pull his own weight (and I'm not talking about just a quad, someone who's lazy also)? That's really just unfair to ME. That sounds selfish but if I have to choose between me and someone else, I'll usually choose me unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Agreed. If it were me (the OP said he was all set to apply when this happened), I would still want to do as much as possible. I'd definitely be in a specialty other than surgery though.

For #2, you will definitely experience other residents who don't work as hard as others (not because they can't, but because they're lazy). If this increases your work, you'll definitely be bitter.

It's pretty obvious that his school/future residency will make accommodations of some sort. His school is clearly willing to do so, so if I were him, I'd go for it. I'd probably go into diagnostic radiology though.
 
Like L2D said, medical school and residency are pretty standardized and fairly similar across the board. So the residents posting a realistic picture here are indeed giving us a realistic picture of the kind of accommodations that the OP will require in residency and the potential impact the OP's disability will have on his fellow overworked residents.
 
...
It's pretty obvious that his school/future residency will make accommodations of some sort. His school is clearly willing to do so, so if I were him, I'd go for it. I'd probably go into diagnostic radiology though.

He's likely a second year by now, so presumably he did go for it.

Rads, like PM&R (what he said he wanted) are probably problematic because they require an intern year (either prelim or transitional year first). Also all radiology programs require some IR rotations/call which is essentially a surgery rotation, and when not on IR, the residents will also do imaging guided procedures such as biopsies, para/thora centesis, pediatric GU studies, and the like, which do involve bimanual dexterity. So I actually think radiology would be hard for the OP.

IMHO someone in OPs position as originally described, is probably better off in something like psych or path which are categorical from year 1, so they don't have to do a traditional intern year and additionally won't have to seek accommodations from multiple programs (like you might if you had to get accommodations from both a transitional year program and an "advanced" PM&R program. It's undoubtedly much easier to get 1 person to take a chance on you than two.
 
I hope the OP will consider pediatrics. There are some rotations at our large pediatric hospital that would be problematic, but I don't personally believe there are any deal-breakers.

As far as the NICU, I would be delighted to have the OP as my resident in the NICU AND on-call with us at night. So many of our families have to face a future caring for their children who will certainly have significant physical limitations. I think the OP would be a true inspiration to them.

Procedures? Hah, we don't count on our residents for that. We have a huge NICU and 24/7 we have nurses, RTs and fellows and attendings to do those. Residents CAN do procedures, but we don't NEED them to do them at all. We need them to do things like evaluate the labs overnight, present the patient to the team and follow-through with the care needs of the babies. Nothing here that the OP or others with significant physical limitations couldn't do.

We need smart, caring residents, not residents to do chest compressions in our NICU. We know this from actual experience with physicians with physical limitations., although we've never specifically had someone with the OP's problems that I know about.

YMMV, some smaller programs would have more problems in this regard. Bigger pedi programs would likely be a better option.

On the whole, as someone who has followed this thread from the start, I am delighted that the OP has come this far and hope they will consider pediatrics or pediatric PM & R as a future. They sound like someone with a lot to offer to those fields.
 
Great discussion everyone - I've seen good points provided by both sides. Bonus points to oldbear for providing the Attending wisdom.

walderness - if you're still reading, best of luck in your future career.
 
I am proud of myself because I waited nearly 24 hours before posting in this thread so I wouldn't give a crazy rant without purpose. Go me! 😎

I understand a lot of what is being said in this thread, on both sides of the fence. As a few of you may know, I am a para who was just accepted to medical school this cycle. While many of the issues that the OP will have in med school I am fortunate not to face (I have a T-12 injury from a rather clean gunshot wound, so my legs are truly the only thing not working), I have thought several times about a few of the issues L2D and Ab bring up.

I do believe that they sound hostile in a few posts, but this is a touchy subject, and it's hard to go from cheer-mode awesomeness to a reality that is perhaps a little more harshly presented than it could be.

1) Being an Olympian and Paralympian at a very young age (13) severely jaded me when it comes to the "Yay, you!" crowd. It actually made me start to feel worse about myself because it felt like they didn't realize I trained 6 hours a day 6 days a week to pull a 3.40 mile while holding a 4.0 , they only saw someone in a wheelchair who was inspiring other people in wheelchairs to not sit in bed and watch tv all day (I had that said to me a few times).

It feels like a blow to the stomach when someone tells me I can't do something because of my disability, and that is why my knee jerk reaction to some of the posts here was to rant angrily. However, I am a reasonable person. I know that I can't (on my own power)
a) walk
b) stand
c) climb stairs quickly (though I have climbed several flights of stairs in my chair before by strapping myself in and pulling up backwards on the handrail...but that was in my younger more "Jack***" living years). Going down stairs is not actually an issue if you have balance, gravity, and buns of steel, although I guarantee any hospital is going to be the one to axe the idea of a wheelchair going up and down stairs. 😉

2) I am a critical thinker, and I spent a lot of time brainstorming ways to accommodate myself. I talked about it a lot in the interview at the school I will be attending next year. I was particularly worried about not being at standing height and not being able to properly scrub in and move around in a sterile environment without compromising my hands. I found a company that makes sitting/standing electric wheelchairs that are about the same size as small manual wheelchairs. They said they could speed up the sitting/standing time to about 3 seconds, we agreed a sensitive mouth control would make it possible to keep sterile from the waist up and would also allow tilt where I could practically hover directly over the patient if necessary.

I was recently informed (by another mod actually) that there is a man in a wheelchair doing an anesthesiology residency up north, and lo and behold he uses the same type of equipment that I'm after. 👍

3) How I am able to respond to codes on different floors just terrifies the Hell outta me. I'm not going to lie. Short of a jet pack, or an amazingly fateful elevator, I am not getting to a different floor first. I am lucky to be able to totally jump on a bed and go to it on compressions if need be. I still work out, I transfer in an instant, and I am crazy fast in my chair so I'm not at all worried about codes on the same floor. I don't know how to resolve this in a "during intern year" situation. It's seriously the only thing I can't figure out, and in my opinion it's one of the most important.

In the end, there are a decent number of people in wheelchairs who make it through various med schools. A guy on here was accepted to UNC-Chapel Hill this cycle as well. I don't remember his disability, but I know it involves a wheelchair. I know 2 people out west who are currently med students in their 3rd year. It's possible, but there are definitely hurdles to overcome. I sincerely believe that learning to overcome those hurdles yourself is half the battle, and that's not really something that is often discussed in this post. Sure accommodations will need to be made, but maybe the OP (like myself) went into the process with a well-laid plan of how the accommodations would be done (by the student), leaving maybe only 1 or 2 accommodations left for the school/hospital.

Also, as a side note (because I know this type of thing came up in a recent post), there is a doc at ORMC (Orlando) who is in a chair and there are 2 nurses assigned to him at all times (though they do not necessarily need to be WITH him, it's just 2 in case one is out sick while he's in the hospital and needs assistance with something).

Sorry the post is so long. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone. 😉

I'm very happy for you.🙂 It is inspiring to see people achieve even with physical limitations.

______________

L2D and the other guy... I see their points too. I don't think this thread has to be 2 opposing views. There will be specialties that are accommodating and there will be specialties out of the question.

I think having different perspectives and people with unique backgrounds can only help the school.

Good luck to everyone.
 
I hope the OP will consider pediatrics. There are some rotations at our large pediatric hospital that would be problematic, but I don't personally believe there are any deal-breakers.

As far as the NICU, I would be delighted to have the OP as my resident in the NICU AND on-call with us at night. So many of our families have to face a future caring for their children who will certainly have significant physical limitations. I think the OP would be a true inspiration to them.

Procedures? Hah, we don't count on our residents for that. We have a huge NICU and 24/7 we have nurses, RTs and fellows and attendings to do those. Residents CAN do procedures, but we don't NEED them to do them at all. We need them to do things like evaluate the labs overnight, present the patient to the team and follow-through with the care needs of the babies. Nothing here that the OP or others with significant physical limitations couldn't do.

We need smart, caring residents, not residents to do chest compressions in our NICU. We know this from actual experience with physicians with physical limitations., although we've never specifically had someone with the OP's problems that I know about.

YMMV, some smaller programs would have more problems in this regard. Bigger pedi programs would likely be a better option.

On the whole, as someone who has followed this thread from the start, I am delighted that the OP has come this far and hope they will consider pediatrics or pediatric PM & R as a future. They sound like someone with a lot to offer to those fields.

👍
 
I hope the OP will consider pediatrics. There are some rotations at our large pediatric hospital that would be problematic, but I don't personally believe there are any deal-breakers.

As far as the NICU, I would be delighted to have the OP as my resident in the NICU AND on-call with us at night. So many of our families have to face a future caring for their children who will certainly have significant physical limitations. I think the OP would be a true inspiration to them.

Procedures? Hah, we don't count on our residents for that. We have a huge NICU and 24/7 we have nurses, RTs and fellows and attendings to do those. Residents CAN do procedures, but we don't NEED them to do them at all. We need them to do things like evaluate the labs overnight, present the patient to the team and follow-through with the care needs of the babies. Nothing here that the OP or others with significant physical limitations couldn't do.

We need smart, caring residents, not residents to do chest compressions in our NICU. We know this from actual experience with physicians with physical limitations., although we've never specifically had someone with the OP's problems that I know about.

YMMV, some smaller programs would have more problems in this regard. Bigger pedi programs would likely be a better option.

On the whole, as someone who has followed this thread from the start, I am delighted that the OP has come this far and hope they will consider pediatrics or pediatric PM & R as a future. They sound like someone with a lot to offer to those fields.
the rank has been pulled :laugh:
 
To all the haters:

Is there a "vomit" icon? I gave my ego away when I decided to be a doctor. Anyone else with me? (and please don't remind me that I am just an MS4 - I had a job for many years that would make a 120 hour-a-week resident look well-rested. . .)

Do your job. Carry your weight as best you can. Take care of your fellow man (your patients, your fellow residents!!!)

There are plenty of other professions out there if all you care about is business and your own bottom line.
 
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To all the haters:

Is there a "vomit" icon? I gave my ego away when I decided to be a doctor. Anyone else with me? (and please don't remind me that I am just an MS4 - I had a job for many years that would make a 120 hour-a-week resident look well-rested. . .)

Do your job. Carry your weight as best you can. Take care of your fellow man (your patients, your fellow residents!!!)

There are plenty of other professions out there if all you care about is business and your own bottom line.

Not sure that it's about "hating" or "ego." Pretty sure it's about feasibility and practicality.
 
Procedures? Hah, we don't count on our residents for that. We have a huge NICU and 24/7 we have nurses, RTs and fellows and attendings to do those. Residents CAN do procedures, but we don't NEED them to do them at all.

Forgive me, but don't residents become attendings? Even if a resident isn't NEEDed to do a procedure, when they become an attending, who is going to do it? Another attending?

I'm not a resident/attending, so I will not voice an opinion on whether someone in a particular circumstance can or can't do his/her job. But the idea that there are attendings to do procedures, and residents don't have to fails when those residents become attendings.
 
Forgive me, but don't residents become attendings? Even if a resident isn't NEEDed to do a procedure, when they become an attending, who is going to do it? Another attending?

I'm not a resident/attending, so I will not voice an opinion on whether someone in a particular circumstance can or can't do his/her job. But the idea that there are attendings to do procedures, and residents don't have to fails when those residents become attendings.

Most NICU residents don't become neonatologists. It is not necessary to be able to do procedures for many pediatric specialties or even general pediatrics in most urban settings. Actually, it isn't necessary to be able to do procedures as an attending neonatologist. Many older neos haven't done any procedures in decades or longer and don't take in-house night call. But that's off-topic here.
 
the rank has been pulled :laugh:

I'm not sure rank has anything to do with it. The OP still has to get through rotations, and then a residency which won't be limited to the NICU, even for peds. I'll defer to OBP as to what is involved in a pediatric residency, but would point out that pediatrics in many places take care of folks up to age 21, not just neonates, and if a 17 year old codes there isn't all that big a difference from an adult code. If anything the older teens are more likely to be the ones thrashing around while you try to work on them as compared to the senior citizens. But I agree, the NICU would present fewer physical challenges and generally have more people around you could "direct".
 
Most NICU residents don't become neonatologists. It is not necessary to be able to do procedures for many pediatric specialties or even general pediatrics in most urban settings. Actually, it isn't necessary to be able to do procedures as an attending neonatologist. Many older neos haven't done any procedures in decades or longer and don't take in-house night call. But that's off-topic here.

This reminds me of Dr. Jen Arnold, of The Little Couple on TLC. She is a neonatologist and she mentioned in one of the episodes that she chose it over general pediatrics because she "can't do chest compressions on a 6 ft tall 16 year old boy."

Here is an article discussing how she adapted and was accomodated in her pediatrics residency: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20010807hlittledoc3.asp

Note that it says an extra resident would stay at the hospital when she was on call in case of emergencies where someone needs to get there quickly.
 
I'm not sure rank has anything to do with it. The OP still has to get through rotations, and then a residency which won't be limited to the NICU, even for peds. I'll defer to OBP as to what is involved in a pediatric residency, but would point out that pediatrics in many places take care of folks up to age 21, not just neonates, and if a 17 year old codes there isn't all that big a difference from an adult code. If anything the older teens are more likely to be the ones thrashing around while you try to work on them as compared to the senior citizens. But I agree, the NICU would present fewer physical challenges and generally have more people around you could "direct".
it has everything to do with it, i wouldn't tell you what residency is supposed to be like, just the way i think an attending's perspective regarding a quadriplegic's shot at residency spots carries more weight than yours
 
I'm not sure rank has anything to do with it. The OP still has to get through rotations, and then a residency which won't be limited to the NICU, even for peds. I'll defer to OBP as to what is involved in a pediatric residency, but would point out that pediatrics in many places take care of folks up to age 21, not just neonates, and if a 17 year old codes there isn't all that big a difference from an adult code. If anything the older teens are more likely to be the ones thrashing around while you try to work on them as compared to the senior citizens. But I agree, the NICU would present fewer physical challenges and generally have more people around you could "direct".
rank has everything to do with it.....until it gets pulled on you.

And the last time I saw a resident or attending doing CPR outside of BLS/ACLS? never.

you're not being real, you're being square and thinking inside the box. :lame:
 
it has everything to do with it, i wouldn't tell you what residency is supposed to be like, just the way i think an attending's perspective regarding a quadriplegic's shot at residency spots carries more weight than yours

Well to be fair, I think OBP was specifically referring to residency in NICU and/or pediatrics. L2D is probably talking about residencies in IM, ER and P&MR where there probably would be challenges in terms of physical limits. OBP is probably right about there won't be much need for procedures in his specialty area but that wouldn't seem to apply to other residencies. Regardless, someone who's currently doing a residency (whatever L2D's is) probably has a pretty decent understanding of what it takes to do his job as he's currently immersed in it.
 
it has everything to do with it, i wouldn't tell you what residency is supposed to be like, just the way i think an attending's perspective regarding a quadriplegic's shot at residency spots carries more weight than yours
OBP was specifically talking about peds and peds subspecialties, not IM, EM, or other procedure-heavy fields. If OP is going into peds, then absolutely, OBP's advice trumps that of someone who is not in a peds field.

Edit: getdown beat me to it.
 
Well to be fair, I think OBP was specifically referring to residency in NICU and/or pediatrics. L2D is probably talking about residencies in IM, ER and P&MR where there probably would be challenges in terms of physical limits. OBP is probably right about there won't be much need for procedures in his specialty area but that wouldn't seem to apply to other residencies. Regardless, someone who's currently doing a residency (whatever L2D's is) probably has a pretty decent understanding of what it takes to do his job as he's currently immersed in it.
i agree 100%, but my point had more to do with the implications (statements?) that the OP would have a difficult time securing a residency spot in general. and in this case, i would think (though i could be wrong of course) that a resident's knowledge of the residency selection process is just about equivalent to a med student's knowledge of the med school app process. that is to say, not necessarily a lot
OBP was specifically talking about peds and peds subspecialties, not IM, EM, or other procedure-heavy fields. If OP is going into peds, then absolutely, OBP's advice trumps that of someone who is not in a peds field.

Edit: getdown beat me to it.
i don't see why one can't generalize to some extent OBP's post the way others seem eager to extend the viewpoints of individual residents to apply to residency as a whole

edit: i also want be clear that this entire discussion seems to be clearly above my paygrade, so if you guys feel really strongly one way or the other, i'm not particularly inclined to argue. i just found the sequentially escalating ranks of the posters chiming in to be kind of funny
 
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OBP was specifically talking about peds and peds subspecialties, not IM, EM, or other procedure-heavy fields. If OP is going into peds, then absolutely, OBP's advice trumps that of someone who is not in a peds field.
If ODB only counts as a voice for Peds/NICU, than L2D should only count as a voice for whichever current residency he is in and no others.
 
Well to be fair, I think OBP was specifically referring to residency in NICU and/or pediatrics. L2D is probably talking about residencies in IM, ER and P&MR where there probably would be challenges in terms of physical limits. OBP is probably right about there won't be much need for procedures in his specialty area but that wouldn't seem to apply to other residencies. Regardless, someone who's currently doing a residency (whatever L2D's is) probably has a pretty decent understanding of what it takes to do his job as he's currently immersed in it.

And it doesn't negate the fact that there will be difficulties completing clerkships in other fields. On my Ob/gyn rotation, we were required to get 4 deliveries to complete the rotation. On surgery, students are required to act as a part of the team in the OR, which means retracting and helping to get the patient physically ready. We also needed to suture and insert NG tubes to fulfill our clerkship requirements. I don't know of any accommodations that would allow a student that didn't have good function in their upper extremities to accomplish those tasks which we are actually graded on.

I have no doubt that a quadriplegic would be able to enter fields that were less physically demanding and be great at them, but that doesn't mean that those 2 major clerkships don't need to be completed in the mean time.
 
I have no doubt that a quadriplegic would be able to enter fields that were less physically demanding and be great at them, but that doesn't mean that those 2 major clerkships don't need to be completed in the mean time.
and you don't think the school that admitted him and is putting him through rotations isn't aware or that? No, my guess is that Hopkins had no idea what they were doing when they accepted him. :idea:
 
i don't see why one can't generalize to some extent OBP's post the way others seem eager to extend the viewpoints of individual residents to apply to residency as a whole

edit: i also want be clear that this entire discussion seems to be clearly above my paygrade, so if you guys feel really strongly one way or the other, i'm not particularly inclined to argue. i just found the sequentially escalating ranks of the posters chiming in to be kind of funny

What about the clinical years of med school? Will the grading rules in some clerkships be changed for the OP and others in similar positions? Will the minimum required to graduate be lowered to accommodate?

And what about intern year? I am under the impression many residencies (most? I honestly don't know) require an intern year in medicine or surgery. Who will have to take up the extra workload because the OP is limited? Will the OP have to hire a PA to do all the hands-on stuff that's required like that one news article linked above mentioned? And will the OP have to pay for this himself or is a residency program willing to shell out extra money to accommodate the OP?

Disclosure: I don't know too much about internship and residency, so others with more experience feel free to chime in and point out if I'm wrong about something I wrote!

If ODB only counts as a voice for Peds/NICU, than L2D should only count as a voice for whichever current residency he is in and no others.
Are you calling OBP an ole' dirty B? 😛

Fair enough about others being restricted to their own residencies. We've had a surgery resident, an EM resident, and whatever field L2D is in say that there will be potential difficulties for the OP in their fields. Don't remember the entirety of the thread, so I don't know if residents from other fields have been represented as well.
 
What about the clinical years of med school? Will the grading rules in some clerkships be changed for the OP and others in similar positions? Will the minimum required to graduate be lowered to accommodate?

And what about intern year? I am under the impression many residencies (most? I honestly don't know) require an intern year in medicine or surgery. Who will have to take up the extra workload because the OP is limited? Will the OP have to hire a PA to do all the hands-on stuff that's required like that one news article linked above mentioned? And will the OP have to pay for this himself or is a residency program willing to shell out extra money to accommodate the OP?

Disclosure: I don't know too much about internship and residency, so others with more experience feel free to chime in and point out if I'm wrong about something I wrote!
again, i'm not making any claims regarding physical requirements of the job or the OP's ability perform them, or any accommodation that may or may not be necessary. simply that the OP might not face as much prejudice as was implied in this thread in a search for a spot in *a* field after med school. to repeat myself, i think this might be a bit over our heads
 
This is an interesting and timely discussion. Note that I'm in IM, so my comments are somewhat flavored to that workflow.

There is no question that when someone has a disability, they should be allowed to be a physician if that disability can be accomodated for. We can argue about whom should pay for it, or what cost is "reasonable". And we should be clear that "accommodation" can't equal other residents doing the work of the disabled resident (at least not without some sort of compensation).

The really hard part is addressing the situation where the disability allows the student to do most of the job but perhaps not all of the job of a resident, but that those parts of the job would not be part of the student's final career. In that case, should we change the role of the resident during training, or should we require all residents to perform all aspects of the job?

It's not an easy question to answer.

The arguments often heard on the "pro" side (to change the responsibilities of the disabled resident) are:
1. As long as their final job won't require it, there is no reason for them to do it in residency.
2. It's the "right" thing to do.
3. Residency is "education", and as such should be tailored to the individual.

On the "con" side (that the job description for the resident shouldn't be changed for disability):
1. You never really know what your future job will entail, so you need to train for everything.
2. Board certification does not come with "caveats". It's all or nothing.
3. Residency is a "job". Either you can do it, or you can't. The job shouldn't be changed based upon the individual.

We were reviewing our job standards, and had these same discussions. Overall, we felt that having a resident have someone else (PA, other) follow them to "do" things was unacceptable and impractical. The article quoted above mentioned that the medical school required the student to hire their own PA -- although that might work in school, the ADA law forbids it (I believe?) as it requires that all accommodation be paid for by the employer. Plus, having someone available for each and every shift for the resident would be a technical nightmare. Plus, when evaluating said resident, how do you separate their skills from their proxy's skills? If the proxy misinterprets something on the physical exam, does the resident get "constructive feedback" on that? We simply felt it was not feasible to allow this.

But that still leaves us with a bunch of sticky questions:

1. Must every resident be able to perform CPR?
This is a basic tenet of most programs/schools. In reality, we know that there are usually plenty of allied health providers (RN, LNA, RT, etc) whom all should be CPR trained, so theoretically there should always be someone else available to start CPR. On the otherhand, studies have shown that seconds count in CPR. A delay of 30 seconds may have real consequences to outcomes. And can a hospital be sued for failure to deliver CPR if a provider was physically unable to and had to call someone else. As above, having a special "CPR provider" follow a resident around is crazy for the rare times that this happens. We discussed maybe doing so during "high risk" times (like ICU rotations) -- but honestly those are the times when others are around who can do CPR. I worry about the code in the CT scanner.

Our overall feeling was that, if CPR was the only thing the resident could not do, we would find a way to live with that. However, it's unlikely that a disability would only affect ability to do CPR.

2. What if the resident can do all of the work, but at a lower speed?
Let's say someone has a disability that slows their ability to use a computer. They can do everything a resident needs to do, but all of their ordering / charting / documentation / review of records is slower. We would clearly give them whatever technical assistance we could -- dragon dictate, maybe a bigger keyboard, etc. But, we cannot give "extra time" like you can on exams. The only choice would be to decrease the resident's patient workload. We decided that was unacceptable. Residents need to do their work, with accommodations, at full workload. We are absolutely willing to decrease workload (or adjust schedules) for a short defined period of time to address a disability -- a resident who breaks their wrist and cannot type for 6 weeks might swap rotations so that the charting intensive ones occur after their injury, for example. But a resident who could do good work at a 50% workload but can't handle a 100% workload because of time issues would not be acceptable.

3. Should all residents be able to perform all procedures, or should they only be required to know the indications/risks/benefits/interpretations of procedures?

A discussion that we were unable to get any true clarity on. On the one hand, being able to order/interpret procedures seems reasonable. Obviously residents who are unable to perform a procedure will need to find a job where that isn't necessary -- and there are plenty of those in IM. But, one of the jobs of our senior residents on call is to be the "ultimate backup" of everyone in the hospital. If someone is stuck, needs extra help, or supervision around a procedure, this resident would be unable to do so. Therefore, this resident could not do that role. Is that reasonable, or fair? I really am mixed on this. I could "balance the workload" by making that resident do more of other rotations that require weekend or night work, to try to balance the workload somewhat. But is it OK that the resident never fills this critical role of maximal responsibility?

4. If a resident is in a wheelchair, is that OK? Can they get to codes fast enough, or respond to nursing calls quickly, etc.

Another complicated question. We would probably give the resident an "override key" for the elevator. But how fast is acceptable? Is this my choice, or does the hospital get to set it? Do we then have some sort of physical test during the hiring process to see if someone can go fast enough?

My overall feeling is that this is something we might be able to work around. I might make the disabled resident never be the code team leader (since a delay in their arrival creates more havoc), but this creates another #3 issue -- can the resident fill a role where they would be the code team leader?

It's all very difficult. My sense is that if a resident could do an advanced residency (like PM&R) but will have problems in a prelim year, we should find a way around that -- which might be having said resident not do a prelim year with approval from the board. If the resident wants to do a residency where their disability is not completely compensatable with accomodations, then the question arises as to what the "necessary functions" of the residency are, and whether the definition of "necessary" is driven by the needs of the residency (which would be the case in employment) or the needs of the resident (which would be more the case in education).
 
again, i'm not making any claims regarding physical requirements of the job or the OP's ability perform them, or any accommodation that may or may not be necessary. simply that the OP might not face as much prejudice as was implied in this thread in a search for a spot in *a* field after med school. to repeat myself, i think this might be a bit over our heads
Agreed. 👍

Edit: I was hoping aPD would also get a chance to comment. Thanks for the post aPD!
 
Fair enough about others being restricted to their own residencies. We've had a surgery resident, an EM resident, and whatever field L2D is in say that there will be potential difficulties for the OP in their fields. Don't remember the entirety of the thread, so I don't know if residents from other fields have been represented as well.

lol, I would think this field would obviously be out of the question for the OP, unless they invented surgery by voice instruction or something.
 
I can see both sides of the arguments however aren't medical students throughout the country now absolutely required to perform certain core competencies to graduate?

The list I was given-
1) Core Technical Competencies
-Venipuncture
-IV placement
-EKG
-NG tube insertion
-Urethral cath in male and female
-Urethral cath removal in male and female
-Dressing changes
-Obtaining peak flow
-Suture removal
-Throat Culture

2) Suggested Technical Competencies
-Admin of eye drops
-IM injections
-Subcut injections
-Heel and finger sticks
-Placement of non invasive monitors

3) Competencies requiring direct supervision
-Lumbar puncture
-Thoracentesis
-Paracentesis
-ABG
-Arterial stick

4) Other
-Neurological exam - standard and in patient in a coma
-Pelvic exam
-Pap smear
-Vaginal delivery
-Breast examination
-STD screening
-Assist in C-section
-Interpreting fetal sonogram and fetal heart monitor
-Assist in open abd gyn surgery
-Assist in laparoscopic gyn surgery
-Assist in vaginal gyn surgery
-Splinting
-GDS, MMSE, ADL/LADL assessment
-Suturing of laceration
-Airway management
-Central venous access
-Collection of DFAs
-Collecting blood culture

I believe these are the standards of the LCME or some sort of medical education committee.

Besides those I was required to do the following on my ER rotation
-Venipuncture, IV placement, Splinting, ABG, Ultrasound (transvaginal, pelvic and abdominal), Pelvic exam, and a few other procedures I just can't remember right now.

And I was certainly expected to be fully scrubbed and to participate in as many surgeries as possible during my gyn and surgery rotation.

I agree that a disability will certainly affect how one can manage in the clinical years. Some disabilities are easier to accommodate than others and the ultimate question would be what can be sacrificed due to a physical inability and where do you draw the line? I too would be concerned about the OP's prospects of obtaining a residency. The only field I can think of that doesn't require a clinical intern year is pathology. PM&R, which is what the OP appears to be interested in does require an intern year as discussed. If the OP can find one that will accommodate him to such an extent, good for him. But L2D and others bring up a good point in that medicine is first and foremost about the patient. If one could not physically and safely care for patients, isn't it cruel and unfair to encourage one into the field? Anyway, from what I read, it seems like the so called "naysayers" are just saying the unpopular things that the OP will ultimately have to hear anyway. I would be very interested to hear from the OP when he hits 4th year and is now forced to listen to the administration tell him what to and not to apply into.
 
I can see both sides of the arguments however aren't medical students throughout the country now absolutely required to perform certain core competencies to graduate?...
Another question is that if the school feels like some procedures, etc, need not be done by a disabled person or lowering the minimum required to pass a surgery clerkship if said person is going into a field unrelated to surgery, etc, can a non-disabled student ask for the same thing? And, if the school declines, is that fair?
 
...
It's all very difficult. My sense is that if a resident could do an advanced residency (like PM&R) but will have problems in a prelim year, we should find a way around that -- which might be having said resident not do a prelim year with approval from the board. If the resident wants to do a residency where their disability is not completely compensatable with accomodations, then the question arises as to what the "necessary functions" of the residency are, and whether the definition of "necessary" is driven by the needs of the residency (which would be the case in employment) or the needs of the resident (which would be more the case in education).

Here's where you lost me. The advanced residencies have decided that a preliminary or transitional year is necessary. If they didn't feel that way, these wouldn't be required in the first place. There are a host of reasons for this, ranging from the notion that it's important to be a generalist first before specializing, to having experience managing patients on your own, etc. I think most agree that residents get "shaped" a great deal during their intern year, and so the advanced paths believe them an absolute necessity. So you really can't say, "well the OP's terminal job won't require these tasks, so let's just cast aside this whole year for him, because his needs come first". That's not fair to the other thousands of folks who have to suffer through prelim years each year, and it's really not a reasonable accommodation. It's drastically changing the path to the specialty, taking away the year which many believe is where most residents really learn to be a doctor.

I think your mindset of what is necessary would change if we made it closer to home. So look at it this way. What if someone for some honest reason couldn't do your 3 year IM residency program, but was sure he could do it for 2 years, so he wanted to just skip the first year, do the two senior years, and go off into some low impact subspecialty. I suspect you would not be taking the whole "let's focus on the needs of this guy, rather than the needs of the program" point of view. You would say "now way, this isn't a reasonable accommodation". It's really the same with advanced specialties. They have already streamlined the categorical portions of their residencies because folks come in having been "broken in" as an intern someplace. You can't skip that, any more than you can skip the first year of a categorical IM path without dramatically altering the training.

So yeah, I agree there are some tough questions, but I think it boils down to whether someone can do the training with reasonable accommodation, not wholesale changes to the program. So by reasonable, I would agree that if an elevator override key made the difference, or dragonware dictations software, then sure, that's fine. But if we are talking about eliminating prelim years, or dumping work onto other residents, or hiring full time PAs to work 80 hours/week to be the resident's wingman, then I'd say we are far from reasonable.
 
i agree 100%, but my point had more to do with the implications (statements?) that the OP would have a difficult time securing a residency spot in general. and in this case, i would think (though i could be wrong of course) that a resident's knowledge of the residency selection process is just about equivalent to a med student's knowledge of the med school app process. that is to say, not necessarily a lot
...

Here's the flaw in that reasoning. When talking about knowledge of training programs, attendings only really outrank residents in the same specialty. There are really two paths in residency today, fields that have categorical residencies that start from the PGY-1 year, and fields that are known as "advanced" and start in PGY-2, thus requiring the resident to first complete a prelim or transitional intern year first. Pediatrics is a categorical residency. PM&R, which OP was talking about is an "advanced" path. So folks who have completed prelim or transitional intern years are the experts on what OP will endure, not an attending in a categorical field.

Every residency is different length, and you will see once you work in a hospital setting that folks aren't going to concede expertise to folks in other fields by virtue of attending status. YOUR attending outranks you, but the other specialties' attendings really often doesn't. You are going to witness some beatdowns of attendings by residents in some instances. I recall watching a pretty amusing shouting match between a hospitalist (attending) and a surgical subspecialty resident over a patient care issue. No way this surgical resident in his 6th year of training was going to back down to this attending who was only 4 years out of med school and clearly didn't have a clue. But that's not really the issue here. The OP told us his target path, and so the folks further down that road have the rank. Pediatrics is a different path. Maybe a smarter path for OP, but I'll defer to OBP on that. (FWIW I cannot imaging a pediatrics residency where they don't make you do at least some Peds ER rotations where folks are going to need stitches, LPs etc, but again I defer to OBP in his specialty).
 
I guess this is picture posting day...

Peace_sign.jpg
 
But if we are talking about eliminating prelim years, or dumping work onto other residents, or hiring full time PAs to work 80 hours/week to be the resident's wingman, then I'd say we are far from reasonable.
"Sorry, man. I'm going to need you to do a rectal exam on this patient. If there's a lot of stool, go ahead and disimpact him too."

I wonder if I could hire one of these on a per diem basis....
 
UCLA graduated a student recently who was a triple amputee (I believe she still had a hand with at least some fingers/functionality), obviously a very different situation, but demonstrates that they're willing to work with serious disabilities. And maybe check with UCSF, they seem like a school which values unique applicants. As the previous poster mentioned, they're state-funded so they might be bound by their standards, but it's worth a shot. Good luck.

I thought she went to UCSF
 
Here's where you lost me. The advanced residencies have decided that a preliminary or transitional year is necessary. If they didn't feel that way, these wouldn't be required in the first place. There are a host of reasons for this, ranging from the notion that it's important to be a generalist first before specializing, to having experience managing patients on your own, etc. I think most agree that residents get "shaped" a great deal during their intern year, and so the advanced paths believe them an absolute necessity. So you really can't say, "well the OP's terminal job won't require these tasks, so let's just cast aside this whole year for him, because his needs come first". That's not fair to the other thousands of folks who have to suffer through prelim years each year, and it's really not a reasonable accommodation. It's drastically changing the path to the specialty, taking away the year which many believe is where most residents really learn to be a doctor.

Why is a prelim year required before a PM&R residency? It's a really good question. Perhaps it's because it's "necessary" -- i.e. you couldn't possibly be a good PM&R physician without it. Or, perhaps it's simply because that's the way it is. Because, in the distant past, everyone did a rotating internship and then often switched programs into a residency. But, somewhere along the line some fields created categorical tracks, yet others maintained the separate intern year.

ED used to be a internship, followed by an ED residency from PGY2 to 4. Now it's a PGY1-3 categorical track (for most programs). Is that "fair" to the first people who had to do 4 years of training? Probably not, but it changed anyway.

Endocrinology is a subspecialty of internal medicine -- you need to do 3 years of IM first, and then 2 years of endocrine. Neurology is a stand alone advanced program -- 1 prelim IM year, followed by 4 years of neuro. Why is that? Why don't those interested in endocrine start in their PGY-2, or why isn't neurology a subspecialty of IM? The answer is probably "because that's the way it was set up many years ago by the people who decided these things".

So, my point is simply this: "we" might need to look at how training is structured. Perhaps a prelim year is a necessary part of PM&R training. Honestly, I have no idea. I'm not a PM&R doc, nor do I know very much about what they do. But maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just a left over remnant of a bygone era. And if it isn't, maybe PM&R could be a PGY-1 match, for everyone. I agree that a special exception should NOT be made for this one guy. Either it's restructured for everyone, or not.

I think your mindset of what is necessary would change if we made it closer to home. So look at it this way. What if someone for some honest reason couldn't do your 3 year IM residency program, but was sure he could do it for 2 years, so he wanted to just skip the first year, do the two senior years, and go off into some low impact subspecialty. I suspect you would not be taking the whole "let's focus on the needs of this guy, rather than the needs of the program" point of view. You would say "now way, this isn't a reasonable accommodation". It's really the same with advanced specialties. They have already streamlined the categorical portions of their residencies because folks come in having been "broken in" as an intern someplace. You can't skip that, any more than you can skip the first year of a categorical IM path without dramatically altering the training.

Let's look at IM. I don't think your example works though, since I have trouble imagining someone who would have the skills to start as a PGY-2 without doing a PGY-1 first [although perhaps someone who did an FM PGY-1 first, but that gets into politics, and the ABIM not giving credit for FM rotations]

Let's use the example of a student with a disability which makes them unable to do procedures, and perhaps makes it more difficult for them to work on the inpatient wards. But, they perhaps will do fine in the outpatient arena. The OP might fit that description -- outpatient clinics are usually on one floor, the patients come to you, no one is putting central lines in clinic patients, etc.

It's a really good question without a clear answer. The way my residency is arranged, I could not accomodate that. Again, this is a job that I am hiring people to do. Some parts of the job may be directly applicable to your future career. Other parts are not. Residents cannot say: "I'm not going to be a heme/onc doc, so I don't want to do the Heme/Onc inpatient rotation". My residency is a mixture of inpatient and outpatient experiences. That's the job, and is included in my essential standards.

But, nothing stops a program from trying to create a position that is mostly outpatient, with inpatient experience being less "hands on". The ABIM doesn't have clear standards on this, although the new milestones project does try to get at this somewhat. Still, it could be done.

Unless we feel that all IM physicians, regardless of their ultimate practice, need to be skilled in direct inpatient care. And that's the interesting question, to which there really isn't an answer.

And it's a slippery slope. Forget about disabilities. Let's think about someone who is interested in Endocrine. They want to be an outpatient endocrine doc. It would be possible to create a residency in Endocrine starting in the PGY-1. It would be mostly outpatient. You would become expert in diabetes / thyroid / etc management. You would learn how to manage DKA and thyroid storm by consulting on patients managed by hospitalists. You would never rotate on a Heme/Onc service, but you would consult on their patients when needed. An Endocrine fellowship currently follows an IM residency because the ABIM says so.

Is this a good idea? I don't know. I would like to think that what makes physicians think so well about medical problems is not only their in depth knowledge of their specific field, but their broad training in other fields and general medicine. So, I think a direct endocrine pathway would lose something vital and important. But we could certainly shave time off training with a change like this, which would save billions of dollars (or allow the training of more residents). And maybe trainees coming out of a direct pathway like this would be perfectly well trained. Perhaps I'm a dinosaur. [If so, at least I'm a dinosaur that uses social media]
 
This reminds me of Dr. Jen Arnold, of The Little Couple on TLC. She is a neonatologist and she mentioned in one of the episodes that she chose it over general pediatrics because she "can't do chest compressions on a 6 ft tall 16 year old boy."

Here is an article discussing how she adapted and was accomodated in her pediatrics residency: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20010807hlittledoc3.asp

Note that it says an extra resident would stay at the hospital when she was on call in case of emergencies where someone needs to get there quickly.

I read the article. 2 things.

1. She is having to take a leave of absence from training for surgery. This is not the end of the world and could happen to anyone. However: this means she's out of the call pool which means that other residents are doing her work. Newsflash for the pre-meds and med students on this thread, attendings and supervisors do not pick up slack for residents. If a resident is incapacitated, all of their work shifts on to their colleagues.

2. The article mentions "another senior" will take call with her. This means that other residents are working more because she is in the program.

Good for her that she is doing this, she may be a great doc (can't say based on the article). However, she is creating more work for her fellow residents, not all of whom signed up for it.

Not to belabor the point, but it is super easy to say "yeah yeah yeah" on an anonymous internet forum. It is quite a bit harder to hear, "cancel those dinner plans with your wife or that weekend trip to see the parents, you are staying late because Dr. X has to go home."
 
:cry:

I don't think anyone signed up for being a quad either. :idea:

People here are having a hard time between separating a feel good story with reality. Sure, it's a feel good story someone with such adversities was able to overcome their problems, we all feel it, we're not heartless. But at what point does this feel good story become an impairment to OTHER PEOPLE? Let's get one thing straight here. His impairment DOES effect other people and that's NOT FAIR to the other person/resident that has to do MORE work because of it. For those of you who have worked a day of your life. Imagine a coworker that has a disability and can't pull his/her weight and the boss dumps that extra work on YOU. Would you still be so happy that this person is there following his dream and affecting yours? I bet most of you would be really annoyed.
 
OK, so I just finished reading Hot Lights, Cold Steel by Michael Collins, MD orthopedic surgeon. During his entire residency he had 1-4 kids and moonlighted quite a bit. When he moonlighted (because he had to pay for his multiple children and wife who didn't work, constantly struggled with money) he "gave his pager to his fellow residents." He made it seem like they volunteered and were totally cool with it, and thanked them at the end of the book saying "we never could have done it without you," but I'm wondering if there wasn't a little resentment that the other residents had to help him out simply because he had a huge family, by choice. Any thoughts? I also admit that I'm not sure how much work it entails to "hold someone's pager" when they aren't available, so maybe it wasn't a big deal. 😕
 
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