Question About Previously AOA Residencies

[runtheball005]

In terms of applying to competitive residencies (i.e. ortho, derm, ENT) that were AOA before the merger, how much do these programs value COMLEX? From my understanding, many of these programs would put a lot of weight on comlex scores before the merger happened, so I'm wondering if they continue to do so. I guess my question is, if there is a ortho residency that still takes mostly (if not all) DO students after the merger, do you think a student with an average USMLE + stellar comlex score would have a shot given that the rest of his/her application is up to par?

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[AnatomyGrey12]

In terms of applying to competitive residencies (i.e. ortho, derm, ENT) that were AOA before the merger, how much do these programs value COMLEX? From my understanding, many of these programs would put a lot of weight on comlex scores before the merger happened, so I'm wondering if they continue to do so. I guess my question is, if there is a ortho residency that still takes mostly (if not all) DO students after the merger, do you think a student with an average USMLE + stellar comlex score would have a shot given that the rest of his/her application is up to par?

Yes they still mainly use COMLEX for DO applicants.

 

[runtheball005]

Yes they still mainly use COMLEX for DO applicants.

Yaaaas

 

[calivianya]

How do we go about finding these programs? Maybe I’m just dumb, but I can’t find an option for it in freida. Adding the ”osteopathic recognition” filter only finds the programs that wanted that designation - not all programs that used to be AOA.

I just got my level 1 score back and while I did well on both step 1 and level 1, my level 1 was much better than I expected it to be. I would very much like to use that to my advantage come application season.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How do we go about finding these programs? Maybe I’m just dumb, but I can’t find an option for it in freida. Adding the ”osteopathic recognition” filter only finds the programs that wanted that designation - not all programs that used to be AOA.

I just got my level 1 score back and while I did well on both step 1 and level 1, my level 1 was much better than I expected it to be. I would very much like to use that to my advantage come application season.

ACGME - Accreditation Data System (ADS)

apps.acgme-i.org

pick the specialty and run the report.

 

[calivianya]

ACGME - Accreditation Data System (ADS)

apps.acgme-i.org

pick the specialty and run the report.

Perfect! Thank you so much.

 

[calvinhobbes]

https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/single-gme-transitioned-programs-opportunities.pdf

 

[Solodyn]

Our program no longer looks at COMLEX unless that is the only score an applicant has. If an applicant has both USMLE and COMLEX, we will only look at the USMLE scores so we can compare the applicant with other MD applicants. I suspect other Ex-AOA programs are the same way. We use COMLEX as the last resort to evaluate an applicant. Don't count on ex-AOA programs to be the saviors for DO applicants. That ship has sailed.

 

[DrMcLovin]

In our program the rotation is #1 then we look at COMLEX and take into account USMLE if you have it (you should). I think prior AOA ortho will continue to favor DO’s. There is no shortage of stellar DO orthopedic applicants and we still remember all the opportunities we had at ACGME ortho programs pre-merger.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Our program no longer looks at COMLEX unless that is the only score an applicant has. If an applicant has both USMLE and COMLEX, we will only look at the USMLE scores so we can compare the applicant with other MD applicants. I suspect other Ex-AOA programs are the same way. We use COMLEX as the last resort to evaluate an applicant. Don't count on ex-AOA programs to be the saviors for DO applicants. That ship has sailed.

Just a counter anecdote. My schools gen surg and Ortho programs have told us they are only going to consider DO applicants for the foreseeable future and only require comlex.

 

[slowthai]

It's very interesting observing the approach of "taking the best candidates possible" vs favoring DOs via auditions and COMLEX. I wonder which one will win out over the next 5-10 years, especially in the context of the runaway growth of new DO schools. I'm sure some programs will remain resistant and keep barriers to MDs in place (like requiring COMLEX to even audition), and others will blatantly favor MDs.

Another question is, what happens when MDs inevitably start auditioning at former AOA programs in larger numbers?

 

[Dr.Bruh]

It's very interesting observing the approach of "taking the best candidates possible" vs favoring DOs via auditions and COMLEX. I wonder which one will win out over the next 5-10 years, especially in the context of the runaway growth of new DO schools. I'm sure some programs will remain resistant and keep barriers to MDs in place (like requiring COMLEX to even audition), and others will blatantly favor MDs.

Another question is, what happens when MDs inevitably start auditioning at former AOA programs in larger numbers?

Doesn't seem like that would be an issue at least for a long time. The MDs auditioning at at AOA programs are almost certainly going to be MDs with low stats going for competative specialties (or else theyd be auditioning at MD instituitions). In that likely scenior you have typically the "top" DO applicants auditioning at these programs with the "worst" MD applicants. So even if they went with "take the best candidate possible" approach the DO would win out majority of the time.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

In terms of applying to competitive residencies (i.e. ortho, derm, ENT) that were AOA before the merger, how much do these programs value COMLEX? From my understanding, many of these programs would put a lot of weight on comlex scores before the merger happened, so I'm wondering if they continue to do so. I guess my question is, if there is a ortho residency that still takes mostly (if not all) DO students after the merger, do you think a student with an average USMLE + stellar comlex score would have a shot given that the rest of his/her application is up to par?

Program dependent. The program I'm in was a DO program, but now the PD and APD are both MDs. It would be smart to send applications to those programs if you have stellar COMLEX and average USMLE, but I wouldn't be surprised if nothing came from it

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I don’t think the AOA programs are closed to MDs. They just value the audition because that’s how it’s been for so long. If you’re an MD and wanna go to a program, then you have to put the time in there. Why would I program take a 250 MD whom they have never worked with vs a 250 DO who has spent a month somewhere.

That’s why these programs will stay mostly DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don’t think the AOA programs are closed to MDs. They just value the audition because that’s how it’s been for so long. If you’re an MD and wanna go to a program, then you have to put the time in there. Why would I program take a 250 MD whom they have never worked with vs a 250 DO who has spent a month somewhere.

That’s why these programs will stay mostly DO.

And to build off of this, of the handful of MD peeps I personally know applying ortho and ENT specifically, exactly zero of them are even considering the DO programs. If you read the Reddit sheets in those specialties the sentiment is widely shared that a lot of MD's view these programs as beneath them. Obviously that doesn't represent all MD applicants but does give insight to the mindset of a large chunk of the pool.

I guess I just don't really believe the 250 MD applicant will be spending lots of audition time at these DO places when they traditionally would match MD programs. This is at least for ENT and ortho. Even then it isn't a sure thing, my best friend is applying DO ENT and I would put him and his app in the top 5% of ENT applicants in the entire country. Any MD thinking they will just audition and waltz into a DO spot is going to be pretty surprised at the quality of the DO applicants they run into.

 

[Solodyn]

And to build off of this, of the handful of MD peeps I personally know applying ortho and ENT specifically, exactly zero of them are even considering the DO programs. If you read the Reddit sheets in those specialties the sentiment is widely shared that a lot of MD's view these programs as beneath them. Obviously that doesn't represent all MD applicants but does give insight to the mindset of a large chunk of the pool.

I guess I just don't really believe the 250 MD applicant will be spending lots of audition time at these DO places when they traditionally would match MD programs. This is at least for ENT and ortho. Even then it isn't a sure thing, my best friend is applying DO ENT and I would put him and his app in the top 5% of ENT applicants in the entire country. Any MD thinking they will just audition and waltz into a DO spot is going to be pretty surprised at the quality of the DO applicants they run into.

I agree to some extend. Our program gets plethora of excellent FMG MD candidates. They are perfectly willing to rotate and some even take a year off just to rotate to different programs. A typical 4th-year USMD student will have certain optimism about their chances first time around and aim for top tier programs until they fail to match the specialty of their dreams. At that point, many will also be willing to consider a research year or rotate to new ACGME programs. This transition will take a couple of years to catch up.

What may be helpful for the DO applicants is to identify the programs that have an ongoing commitment to DO students. I can't speak for ortho or ENT. but for derm, they are as follows:

Beaumont Health (Farmington Hills) Program
Still OPTI Program
St Barnabas Hospital Program
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals Cleveland Medical Center Program

These are the 4 programs with Osteopathic Recognitions and protected DO positions. If you have to rotate, these will be the first ones to consider.

 

[cbc86]

And to build off of this, of the handful of MD peeps I personally know applying ortho and ENT specifically, exactly zero of them are even considering the DO programs. If you read the Reddit sheets in those specialties the sentiment is widely shared that a lot of MD's view these programs as beneath them. Obviously that doesn't represent all MD applicants but does give insight to the mindset of a large chunk of the pool.

I guess I just don't really believe the 250 MD applicant will be spending lots of audition time at these DO places when they traditionally would match MD programs. This is at least for ENT and ortho. Even then it isn't a sure thing, my best friend is applying DO ENT and I would put him and his app in the top 5% of ENT applicants in the entire country. Any MD thinking they will just audition and waltz into a DO spot is going to be pretty surprised at the quality of the DO applicants they run into.

Many MD students applying ENT seem to not know that AOA programs even exist.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Many MD students applying ENT seem to not know that AOA programs even exist.

Yeah my schools ortho program said the vast majority of their MD apps are from IMGs and they can’t even sponsor visas. And this is one of the few AOA programs actually located in a big city not in the middle of nowhere.

 

[slowthai]

Many MD students applying ENT seem to not know that AOA programs even exist.

Yeah my schools ortho program said the vast majority of their MD apps are from IMGs and they can’t even sponsor visas. And this is one of the few AOA programs actually located in a big city not in the middle of nowhere.

I'm 100% sure this won't remain the case for long.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I'm 100% sure this won't remain the case for long.

Yeah but the idea that competitive MD ENT candidates are gunna be flooding former AOA programs is silly. The MDs applying will majority be IMGs and USMDs with low score but still wanting to to competitive specialties. But at that point most programs would take a DO ENT applicant with a 250 over an USMD with a 230. The MDs with 250+ boards and insane research aren’t even thinking about these programs.

 

[slowthai]

Yeah but the idea that competitive MD ENT candidates are gunna be flooding former AOA programs is silly. The MDs applying will majority be IMGs and USMDs with low score but still wanting to to competitive specialties. But at that point most programs would take a DO ENT applicant with a 250 over an USMD with a 230. The MDs with 250+ boards and insane research aren’t even thinking about these programs.

My point is less about the caliber of their apps and more about the fact that the number of people competing for these spots will go up significantly once enough desperate people "figure it out"

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

My point is less about the caliber of their apps and more about the fact that the number of people competing for these spots will go up significantly once enough desperate people "figure it out"

They should have already “figured” it out tho, most of the ent programs and the derm programs..etc have already transitioned for years, a few have started taking MD’s but the majority still favor DO’s...

 

[slowthai]

They should have already “figured” it out tho, most of the ent programs and the derm programs..etc have already transitioned for years, a few have started taking MD’s but the majority still favor DO’s...

The number of MD schools continues to increase, so we'll see what happens for sure.

 

[Dr Tapatio]

And to build off of this, of the handful of MD peeps I personally know applying ortho and ENT specifically, exactly zero of them are even considering the DO programs. If you read the Reddit sheets in those specialties the sentiment is widely shared that a lot of MD's view these programs as beneath them. Obviously that doesn't represent all MD applicants but does give insight to the mindset of a large chunk of the pool.

I guess I just don't really believe the 250 MD applicant will be spending lots of audition time at these DO places when they traditionally would match MD programs. This is at least for ENT and ortho. Even then it isn't a sure thing, my best friend is applying DO ENT and I would put him and his app in the top 5% of ENT applicants in the entire country. Any MD thinking they will just audition and waltz into a DO spot is going to be pretty surprised at the quality of the DO applicants they run into.

This is not what I have witnessed at all. The classes magically turned at lest 50% MD as soon as they merged. You might have some ivy leaguers with 280s looking down at those residencies, but believe me, there are enough MDs that want these specialties that they will go there