Questions regarding DO

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Its unclear why there are DOs who think they should be doing allopathic surgery residencies. Seems to me that it goes against the basic philosophy of osteopathy. Obviously surgery residencies will fill their manpower needs with warm bodies, so there will be an occasional DO, but thankfully not at my hospital. Osteopaths have a clear role in primary care, and they're well suited for that. Two of my college friends went to DO school because they didn't get an MD acceptance, but they both wanted to do primary care. Generally I don't think of DOs as being MD rejects, I assume that they believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and want to use those practices to help patients. Of course then I see a DO in a surgery or radiology residency and of course those ppl just went into DO school when b/c they couldn't get into MD. I guess in the end its not much of an issue, since there will always be a bias against the field in mainstream allopathic medicine.
 
MCAT scores and GPAs have jack **** to do with a person's competence as a doctor. All MCATs test is someone's ability to fill in bubble sheets. GPAs reflect an enourmous amount of coursework, a couple years of which might have been totally unfocused before someone figured it out and got it together. If these numbers are so important, are grades in med school also vital? NO! They're one of the LAST things residencies look at unless you apply to something super-specialaized. Is the person who got a C in micro a better doctor than the one who got an A? No, and in fact, most doctors will tell you it's usually the other way around. Which is also generalizing, but the point is, saying DOs are second-rate just because their schools have lower scores is the biggest bunch of crap. 🙄

Now would I want to get surgery from the most qualified person around? Sure. But our country is so miserably short on primary care people that we should be thanking those who choose to go to DO school (btw, I'm a 2nd yr MD student). Along with those who choose to become PAs and NPs. Did you know that out of the top 10 or so countries in health care, we spend more on it, are more specialized, and _have shorter life spans and higher infant mortality_!!! Now, why could that be?
 
Actually, the only portion of the MCAT found to correlate with subsequent clinical performance is the verbal score. Weak association, but clinically significant.
 
Your post brings up some excellent points that I hadn't thought about before.

Very insightful. 😎

Originally posted by FireAway
Its unclear why there are DOs who think they should be doing allopathic surgery residencies. Seems to me that it goes against the basic philosophy of osteopathy. Obviously surgery residencies will fill their manpower needs with warm bodies, so there will be an occasional DO, but thankfully not at my hospital. Osteopaths have a clear role in primary care, and they're well suited for that. Two of my college friends went to DO school because they didn't get an MD acceptance, but they both wanted to do primary care. Generally I don't think of DOs as being MD rejects, I assume that they believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and want to use those practices to help patients. Of course then I see a DO in a surgery or radiology residency and of course those ppl just went into DO school when b/c they couldn't get into MD. I guess in the end its not much of an issue, since there will always be a bias against the field in mainstream allopathic medicine.
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Originally posted by womansurg
Actually, the only portion of the MCAT found to correlate with subsequent clinical performance is the verbal score. Weak association, but clinically significant.
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how's "clinical performance" defined?
 
This is a little off-subject, but I think GPA's can be misleading. A 3.5 at a Community college is not the same as a 3.5 at a State school, which is not the same as a 3.5 at a competitive Private school.

Standardized tests should be utilized more often because of this. Everyone takes the same test and is compared to everyone else.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/fnp02-students.htm
Average GPA of incoming students: 3.24

http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/nursing/applyPRA.html
A minimum 3.0 cumulative grade point average (GPA) on a 4.0 scale is preferred.



Hmm...
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Originally posted by koolkao
how's "clinical performance" defined?
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The study I saw referenced looked at grades, evaluations, and estimations of performance during clinical years 3 and 4 of medical school.
 
Originally posted by kreno
i don't need to justify myself... but, i feel the need.

Having a hard time making up your mind?
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A doctor without an inkling of humility...i.e. looking down on another profession, an MD looking down on DO or vice versa, to me, is no doctor at all. If I were the patient, I will make sure I will not see this indivicual. A mistake made due to one being an alleged incompetent doctor is just as the same as a mistake made by someone who is too prideful of their title.
 
On an individual basis, I would agree that GPAs and MCATs don't correlate with abilities as a doctor. However, when the entire class of the average DO school has such significantly lower scores as a comparable MD school, that says alot.

I just have a real problem with people who claim that DO training is equivalent. It simply isn't, the training is based in hospitals that have skewed and small patient bases, its impossible to compare a place like Kirksville to Washington U or even SLU for that matter. Furthermore, if its really "the same", then why not go to MD school so you don't have to defend your degree for the rest of your career? I have no problem with people who truly believe in the core tenets of osteopathy and wish to use them in a primary care practice, but its inappropriate to assume that DO training is equivalent and therefore you should be able to do anything specialized, especially surgery. Frankly if you were a US allopathic MD reject interested in a specialty, you'd be better off actually getting the MD at an offshore med school. At least then you'd have an MD, and few ppl would know the difference, whereas DOs stick out like ugly thumbs at the major medical centers.

The growing number of DO schools is driven by the fact that higher education is truly a business, and there's big $$ to be made in providing healthcare. Those things coupled with the fact that there are tons and tons of people who really want to be a "doctor" and are willing to pay big $$ when they get rejected by MD school are fueling the growth in the number of DO schools over the past 20 years. And of course the AOA loves to see this kind of expansion, its their way of trying to breed themselves into the mainstream or majority. Sort of like some churches! Its all economics baby.
 
well said!!
 
Originally posted by kreno
i don't want someone who scored 24 on the mcat diagnosing me, because in my opinion, that score says something about their innate ability.
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The definition of innate is 'in born' or 'born with' ...

I'd argue that few people, if anyone can score well on the MCAT with 'innate' ability.

And if your MCAT score is a reflection of some 'innate ability', then the score should not vary no matter how much you study, because you were born with the skill. It's not something you learn.

I don't think 'innate' was the word you were looking for.

- Tae
 
Originally posted by FireAway

I just have a real problem with people who claim that DO training is equivalent. It simply isn't, the training is based in hospitals that have skewed and small patient bases, its impossible to compare a place like Kirksville to Washington U or even SLU for that matter.
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Gotta love people who make statements w/o justification. Let's assume that the first two years are identical w/ the exception of OMM.

Here is a small sampling of hospitals where DO students rotate though.

PCOM - Philadelphia
Christiana Care
Crozer Keystone
Albert Einstein Medical Center
Frankford
MCP
Pennsylvania Hospital
Temple University - Episcopal
UPMC - Horizon System

NYCOM - New York
Good Samaritan Medical Center
St. Barnabas Hospital
Maimonides Medical Center
Nassau University Medical Center
St. Clair's Hospital & Health Center
Lutheran Medical Center

NSUCOM - Ft. Lauderdale
Memorial Regional
Northwest Medical Center
Mount Sinai - Dade County
Miami Heart - Dade County
Palmetto
Parkway Medical Center
Kendall Medical Center

KCOM - Kirsville, MO
Des Peres Hospital
Forest Park Medical Center
Northeast Regional Medical Center
St. Michael's Hospital (Newark, NJ)
Northside Hospital & Heart Institute (St. Petersburg, FL)

Also, DO students can do electives at UCSF, Mayo, WashU, etc.
It all depends on the student.

Before you make a blanket generalization (based on nothing except what you read here on SDN), make sure you do a little background research.
 
One genuine criticism, I think, has to do with the consistency and reproducibility of the training. Sure, folks from KCOM can rotate at Northside in Florida, but only a few do. At WashU, however, the entire student body spends some good portion of their core training at the parent institutions - facilities which are centered around education and training of physicians. There, students are gauged against well defined standards for performance, by personnel who are committed to medical education. If a student is failing to meet performance criteria, it is recognized and addressed.

This stands in sharp contradistinction to the training our local osteopaths provide. Many of the students who choose to stay locally for their rotations accept substandard positions, simply because they don't want to travel. One example: a core OB/Gyn rotation during which the student never touched or interviewed a patient. Never saw a patient alone, never did an H&P, never did a single pelvic exam. This preceptor believes that students should learn only by observation, and he is one of the core instructors for this program. These students are subsequently inadequately trained. Period. You simply cannot argue otherwise. On many rottions I've seen, students who show no initiative are simply allowed to shadow. There are no expections to read, learn, or perform. They are 'passed' without demonstrating any core capabilities.

Sure, a handful of students travel the two hours to rotate at the local U, and those students get good training. But, as a lot of us have experienced, with an osteopathic trained physician, you're never sure what their background is.
 
Kreno-

I am a female with a 22 MCAT and a 3.44 GPA. Guess I have no right to be an Osteopathic physician then??

I'm not one to get involved in debates on these posts but your attitude is disturbing. I myself would rather be treated by a mature physician who possibly did not have brillant scores, grades, whatever...than be treated by someone so filled with ignorance such as yourself.

Just my 2 cents
 
As a future osteopathic physician and after reading countless opinions like those reflected in in preceding posts, I recognize that there will always be someone who doubts my capabilities based on prejudice toward my degree and background.

Truth is, I chose the DO route based on the philosophy and the practice of OMT. I also chose this route because I didn't realize such negativity toward DO's was so pervasive (at least among pre-meds, med students, and anonymous SDN posters) as I had only encountered residents and staff physicians who do not share the same opinion. And, I chose to enter the osteopathic field based on my age and academic performance to date. Though my academics were on par with the incoming osteopathic averages, I do not feel that I would have been unable to matriculate into an MD program. Rather, I felt my career interests would be better served in a DO program.

At this point of my training/education, I do not feel that it is lacking from that of my allopathic counterparts. My class isn't being allowed to slack any more than any other medical student in the country and expectations are high about our performance both in class and on the boards. Perhaps based on my average gpa prior to matriculation, I am working very hard to maintain decent grades in my first year. But, I have accomplished that as have my classmates. And, many of them are excelling in such a way that I believe their scores would exceed many allopathic students.

I have prior medical experience in which I was responsible for people's lives and worked autonomously. And I was successful in that career because I always strive to provide the highest quality care I can for my patients.

I know, in the future, that it is that work ethic which will make me a good doctor (maybe even great). And for all those people who doubt my abilities because I'm a DO, well, I can only hope to change people's opinions by being a competent, informed, and capable physician. And, for those people who refuse to recognize me as an equal, I want you to know that I will never feel like a "second class" or "inadequate" physician because you have prejudices.

The fact is that DO's are representing a larger percentage of practicing physicians every year. And, despite differences touted by the AOA and random individuals, we don't differ so much from MD's after all.

See you on rounds! (in a few years, that is...) 😉

Sincerely,
Missy
NSUCOM class of 2006
 
Man, I just stumbled upon this thread. I can now say I've never been so happy to be an osteopathic medical student. What a bunch of little whiners. Are you all honestly that threatened by osteopathic medicine that you form these opinions based on zero experience on a grand scale or fact? For all you premeds out there who dont even own a college degree yet and now claim to have advanced training in not only medicine, but health policy and administration, I ask you to reconsider your careers or quickly find an open mind. I hope you all judge your patients someday as quickly as you've judged D.O.s.

Regarding the numbers, as I've said in other posts, the bell curves are more overlapping now then they've ever been before. The middle 50% of matriculating students at either school are statistically not that different. It's the outliers, the upper Ivies and the few D.O. schools who cater to rural and underserved populations that throw the scales to the direction they are currently in. Because there's only 20 D.O. schools, a few which dont rely as heavily on mcat and gpas for admission standards will greatly affect the group. Honestly, I dont care about that anyway, as you will all see, MCATS are useless in med school. You will never be asked again what your MCAT score was. They supposedly have a slight correlation to board scores, although I've never seen the data, but those non-statistically significant results have never been reproduced anyway.

Now, regarding board scores. Yes, D.O.s do worse on Step I of the USMLE. That's because they're not trained for the USMLE!!! If MD students took the COMLEX Step I, I guarantee they'd have even lower pass rates! The two tests do not test the same things! The COMLEX I is more clinically oriented while the USMLE I is more basic science oriented. As any D.O. student will tell you, you cannot study for the COMLEX and think you are also studying for the USMLE. They're not the same test!

As far as clinical training, there are some D.O, schools with less than stellar clerkships, just as there are MD programs with less than stellar clerkships. However, likewise, there's also some really great rotations, for D.O. or M.D. I go to NYCOM and we rotate through some of the same hospitals, shoulder to shoulder, as students from NYU, Cornell, Stonybrook and Downstate. Half of our clinical faculty in second year is adjunct at NYU, Stonybrook or Downstate! To say a D.O. student does not have the same clinical exposure doesnt hold water with me.

Anyway, flame away at will. If this makes you feel better, good for you. Everybody looks down on someone else, and right now I'm not only looking down at you, but laughing my a$$ off! You all have alot to learn. If anyone wants to debate, fire at will.
 
Originally posted by kreno
Hey Pacman, don't be so patronizing.... that's not a good quality in a physician

okay, a couple things. first, the other day me listing some of the things I said was just done to prove a point - you shouldn't prejudge someone... however, in retrospect, i can see how it looked (over a message board) cheesy... so i didn't mean for it to be like that.

i make my personal opinion on DO's from personal experience working with them professionally, and interacting with DO students at my school, hearing comments by PhD's at my school, etc. Overall, the kids at the michigan state DO school are just NOT as dynamic as the MD students at MSU.. period. You can't argue with me, it's my opinion, based on lots of experience. I know *IDIOTS* that got into the DO school at MSU... i'm sorry, they just should not be physicians.... freaking idiots... girls with 22 mcats and a 3.4 majoring in phychology who are going to eventually going to be responsible for someone's life. sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me...

No one things GPA+MCAT = Good doctor. We've already covered this 3854 times.

However, MCAT verbal and essay sections have correlations to clinical performance, and the physics/bio also have correlates to performance in medical school classes.

You're also forgetting that this *IS* important for those medical schools that have substancial research...

Lastly, again, I just wanted to emphasize how annoyed I am at the "osteopath schools look past the grades" BS. That is inferring that allopathic schools somehow don't look at things other than grades... which is totally not my experience at the allopathic schools i've interviewed at.

In any regard, doesn't matter... DO's are second class doctors... if they weren't, your average person would know what it stood for, and DO's themselves wouldn't prefer to have their name tags say "Dr. John smith" rather than "John Smith, DO" and DO schools would generate research and their admissions criteria would be more selective (I guarantee if I applied to ten random allopathic schools and 10 random DO schools i'd get into a *LOT* more DO schools).

Again, being a physician entails so many qualities... and you don't need to be a 378437 mcat scorer to be a good doctor... but you have to draw the line somewhere, and in my opinion... i don't want someone who scored 24 on the mcat diagnosing me, because in my opinion, that score says something about their innate ability. If you got a 24, then you are probably gifted in another type of quality which would suit a career other than medicine...
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Just goes to show, folks, that you can't talk to some people. I don't know if he was molested or forced to eat his own **** or something, but he just won't listen to people who obviously have more experience (in healthcare AND life). Dude, you'll learn so much more if you shut the f*ck up and listen to other people and open your small mind.

I work in a small community with 5 DOs and 1 MD. They are all equal in the eyes of each other, the community, and me. I see them do the same stuff, day in and day out.

I'm also friends with the smartest person I've ever met (he was a dr. by age 22). He has told me on several occasions that MD=DO, they're just pieces of paper. What you do with the piece of paper is what matters.

Generalizations are expected from immature kids. But you've had more than a fair chance to listen to reason.

I think there's a little more to your posts than just trying to prove a point. I think you're just saying what you know will piss people off to get a "rise" out of the whole thing.
 
The one thing that Kreno and his DO bashing buddies have no clue about is just how humbling medical school is across the board. You will learn a few important tenents in the next few years. One of them is that you only see premeds bashing DO students and their careers, and you never see medical students on this forum or anywhere else lining up to bash DO's. It is always the young premed allopaths who think their sh$t doesn't stink. You may be on your high horse today, but you are soon to see what it means to be mediocre and humbled. How come we never see any MD graduates on these forums bashing DO's? It is because they themselves have seen "*******es" in their own ranks, and it only takes a semester to see that it is mostly luck and BS what got people into med school. Perception changes when you actually live through it. There are people in my class that I wouldn't let give my dog aspirin, and there are others who I wonder why they are not at Hopkins.

And if DO education is so far below that of MD's, why are they allowed to practice medicine in the EXACT same capacity regardless of specialty in ALL 50 STATES?? Why are DO's embraced and allowed to join the AMA??? Why would the AMA, the most powerful medical organization in the country have allowed a weaker and meager AOA to push through legislation allowing the full and unrestricted practice of medicine in every state in our country? Whay are naturopaths, chiropractors, PA's, NP's, and Pods restricted in their capacity, but somehow these crappy DO's made it through the cracks?

Why are DO's a huge percentage of our military physicians? Why do DO's work as professional sports Team Physicians?

I don't blame you young premeds from thinking you are all that, because it is the normal maturation process for the narcisitic premed allopath and osteopath. Drop me a line to let me know if you still feel this way when you are an intern, because I doubt you will.

And to comment on what your PhD professors stated about inferior osteopaths; PhD is about the lowest of the pay scale, and who really cares what they think? If you want to talk about a stigma, just ask many PhD's if they ever applied to any medical school in general. Its easy to judge the world from such a small sliver of expertise as PhD's own. And if you want to get technical, I guess you will start to question the validity of PhD faculty at DO institutions right? Realize that DO school is just like MD school, where we rarely see a physician ever in the 1st two years.

Kreno, I was complimenting your stats earlier when you asked me to stop patronizing. You really are a paranoid prick aren't you.
And hey Kreno, do you want to go on record with a formal bet? I will bet you a cool grand that your USMLE Step I will not surpass my second-class physician self's USMLE Step I? Can you imagine being beaten by a DO on the allopathic boards Kreno? I bet it makes your skin crawl, and I bet you break out in a cold sweat. You probably have to take an extra narcisism tablet don't you on that news?

Don't forget Kreno, the top score on the USMLE step I the last 2 years was a DO. Call them if you dispute it, but don't make excuses until you do.
 
Originally posted by oceandocDO


Regarding the numbers, as I've said in other posts, the bell curves are more overlapping now then they've ever been before. The middle 50% of matriculating students at either school are statistically not that different. It's the outliers, the upper Ivies and the few D.O. schools who cater to rural and underserved populations that throw the scales to the direction they are currently in. Because there's only 20 D.O. schools, a few which dont rely as heavily on mcat and gpas for admission standards will greatly affect the group. Honestly, I dont care about that anyway, as you will all see, MCATS are useless in med school. You will never be asked again what your MCAT score was. They supposedly have a slight correlation to board scores, although I've never seen the data, but those non-statistically significant results have never been reproduced anyway.
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Ive always wondered why Osteopathic schools just dont raise their standards so all this bs between the Osteopaths and Allopaths would go away. The more suspect Osteopathic school kinda of smacks of the degree diplomas in Carribean like Ross that charge up the wazoo.
 
Why are DO's a huge percentage of our military physicians?
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General Tommy Franks' personal physician is a D.O. as was the past surgeon general of the army.

Man, I hope we can still win the war 😉
 
The more suspect Osteopathic school kinda of smacks of the degree diplomas in Carribean like Ross that charge up the wazoo.
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Huh? English? Didnt get a 13 on verbal, did ya? 😉 j/k
 
"Just goes to show, folks, that you can't talk to some people. I don't know if he was molested or forced to eat his own **** or something, but he just won't listen to people who obviously have more experience (in healthcare AND life). Dude, you'll learn so much more if you shut the f*ck up and listen to other people and open your small mind"

This is the funniest comment I have read in recent weeks. You should be a stand up comic!!!

Kreno, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't get in anywhere. Adcoms are very good at seeing through attitudes, and most don't care if you made a 40 on your MCAT if your verbal score was "P" for prick! I have a buddy from premed that got turned down everywhere with a 33S, 3.7, all because he was full of himself. He is now in Australia having to pay 3 times the cost for med school. Prickism can be expensive!!
 
Hey GeneralTso's Chicken,

For God's sake, please head to Amazon.com and purchase my old 5th grade Reading text so you can learn how to write a damn sentence.

And lastly, if DO schools weeded out the few older non-traditional students, or the minority students, their entrance standards might be more on par with MD programs. But, through experience, DO schools learned that both classes of these people make excellent physicians regardless of their scores. DO schools figured this out decades ago when these people were some of the majority at DO schools. Then DO schools became just as competitive as MD schools, but they never stopped giving people the chance. Life experience is worth a lot, and this is why the average age of a DO student is much higher than that of MD students.

The average age at my school is 28, which is above 95% of all MD schools.
 
I've been reading some of the posts in this thread and there seems to be quite a bit of anger coming from both sides. It is amazing to find such feelings between people who are going to work together in the future.
Why must we focus so much on a degree? In essence, they are very similar, and just because one of them is the norm doesn't mean it is going to be better. The degree you want to pursue is your choice and that is what is best for you. Yes, there may be pluses to an MD degree, but there sure are some to the DO as well.
It's interesing how MD's say that DO's take that route because they could not get into MD school. But DO's can also say that MD's go to MD school for the "name." We shouldn't point at others and assume why they choose a certain degree or school.
We should be in this together with high/low MCAT's and GPA's. After all, both MD and DO schools have a range of acceptance scores. And most importantly, DO's and MD's work together in the medical field and we should all respect each others decisions.
 
this thread is so hilarious
 
Originally posted by PACtoDOC

And lastly, if DO schools weeded out the few older non-traditional students, or the minority students, their entrance standards might be more on par with MD programs.
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No, if DO schools weeded out the people with low MCAT scores and GPAs, they'd be empty. Not everyone can be above average. There aren't enough above average students to go around, and you are deluding yourself if you think DO schools could fill their classes with the choice students even if they wanted to. Same goes for lesser-regarded MD schools. The filling of medical school classes is a trickle-down process, whether we'd like to think of it that way or not.

I agree that life experience should carry weight in med school admissions, but if you think working for a few years makes up for 3-4 standard deviations on the MCAT, I think you're crazy.

I haven't visited any DO schools, but I can tell you that from the MD programs I've visited so far, I found the students more engaging at the more reputable schools, the ones with higher average MCATs/GPAs. I'd have to assume this trend would continue down to DO schools, unless they somehow found amazingly intelligent students with terrible academic records to fill their classes with.

Wrigley
 
Actually, from my experiences (having friends at Hopkins, HMS, Yale, Penn) and interviewing at DO schools (PCOM, NSUCOM, UNECOM, etc) - all the students and faculty were interesting, engaging, fun to be with, and smart. They all had diverse interests.

Since when do MD schools have monopoly on intelligence, coolness, etc. In fact, when talking to my MD friends at top-ranked schools, they all congratulated me on my choice of PCOM. Not one of them gave me that "Why DO look."

So to Kreno, since you are a complete stranger with a biased perspective, I'm not going to take your advice and attend an MD school in lieu of a DO school based solely on your friend's experience.

Maybe it's the anonymous nature of this board - but somehow, people are extremely paranoid here. Ivy League students do not look down upon private schools, and private schools do not look down upon state schools, and state schools do not look down upon DO schools.

I, myself an ivy league undergrad, do not look down upon Drexel - next door. Nor do I look down upon Chicago, or Temple, or Penn State. I know there's more to people than just SATs, class ranks, activities, etc. Just as there is more to being a doctors than MCATs, science GPAs, activities.

To make a generalization about DOs based on average MCAT/GPA is similar to making generalization about YOUR undergrad based on SAT/GPA. Am I to assume that students at GWU undergrads are second-class college students based on SAT/GPA? Or Temple?

The only students whom I would consider as second class college students are Princeton undergrads 🙂


All I ask is that you stop generalizing the entire DO profession and look at the individual. There are idiots at MD schools, such as there are idiots in DO schools. However, when all said and done, we are all SMALL-SELECT group.

Contrary to popular belief, not all applicants get accpeted to DO schools. PCOM receives around 4,000 applications a year, interview 600-800, accepts around 300-400, for a matriculating class size of around 250.

Anyway, just my input
 
Wrigley.... you're friggin hillarious my friend. Your parents must be proud. Hope you got more outta that 30k at one of the most over-rated Uni's in the country than the dribble you put forth here.

I dont even know you, but you remind me of that dorky guy from Patch Adams who was Patch's roomie.

:clap: Flex some more for us! Look at those biceps!

:clap: 😀
 
Originally posted by oceandocDO
Wrigley.... you're friggin hillarious my friend. Your parents must be proud. Hope you got more outta that 30k at one of the most over-rated Uni's in the country than the dribble you put forth here.

I dont even know you, but you remind me of that dorky guy from Patch Adams who was Patch's roomie.

:clap: Flex some more for us! Look at those biceps!

:clap: 😀
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Ocean

Glad to see you join us in our discussion, but it's not cool to call a respected Univ. over-rated. The guy might come back and ask what school did you go to, since you seem to be so bright.😀
 
Well, since I don't want to get into an exciting anonymous flame war, I'll just assume Patch's roommate is a highly intelligent med student with a degree from a prestigious undergraduate institution who gets all the ladies with his wit, charm and ruggedly handsome good looks. I'll also assume he's conceited. Very conceited.

Wrigley
 
since I don't want to get into an exciting anonymous flame war
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Couldve fooled me with your above contribution. Was that not meant to flame? Brillance, pure brillance.
 
Ocean,

I was thanking you for your generous compliment.

But back to the topic at hand- why don't you enlighten us with the details of the decision-making process you went through when you chose to go to your medical school? Many of the posters in the pre-allopathic board, myself included, don't know much about most osteopathic institutions. We'd be interested in what drove you to attend this institution, which programs you think compare favorably to it, and which other schools you were deciding between when you made your choice.


Wrigley
 
Originally posted by Wrigleyville
Ocean,

I was thanking you for your generous compliment.

But back to the topic at hand- why don't you enlighten us with the details of the decision-making process you went through when you chose to go to your medical school? Many of the posters in the pre-allopathic board, myself included, don't know much about most osteopathic institutions. We'd be interested in what drove you to attend this institution, which programs you think compare favorably to it, and which other schools you were deciding between when you made your choice.


Wrigley
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I would like to know too. Please do tell.
 
Why are DO's a huge percentage of our military physicians?
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I can't believe you have to ask. Again, economics! DO schools are incredibly expensive, so many of these students opt for military scholarships.

And to whoever posted the list of hospitals that DOs rotate thru, you proved my point exactly, just with more words. 98% of those hospitals listed are nothings. That wasn't exactly a list of the who's who in medicine, and nevermind that but they aren't even the best in their own regions.

Its all economics folks. As I said before, the AOA is just trying to breed itself into the medical culture, and these osteopath schools that pop up overnight are just there to cash in on all the people who couldn't get into allopathic schools.
 
Wrigley,

I wasnt quite complementing you, so I'm sorry if I mislead 😉

Regarding my decision to attend a D.O. institution, in the sake of time and a psychiatry exam upcoming, I'll copy/paraphrase a post below from an eerily similar correspondance Deuce 007 and I had a few days past in another thread. It's long, I warn you, but explains my experience in this process, as you "asked".

A preface, not all D.O. students look at osteopathic medicine as a back up. While many do, there are some who are steered into the field by some personal experience and others who want to learn OMM and still others who are wooed by the "philosophy". The decision I made goes deeper than wanting to learn OMM. I actually spend alot of time these days trying to disprove OMM to myself, and that's how science works. I've found OMM to be physical therapy, nothing more, nothing less. However, whether or not all of OMM is efficacious, and beyond the benefits of 200+ more hours of anatomy, physiology and biomechanics reinforcement, it urges a medical student to open their mind to other possibilities of healing and to develop critical thinking skills in order to prove or disprove a theory. From my experience, the M.D. model doesnt allow, or at least encourage, this thought process, at least without basing it on p and t values. From a very broad perspective, M.D.s are more closed-minded doctors, often suffering from tunnel vision. Your very post above proves that. They seem to automatically dispute anything they're told to dispute or anything with the words "alternative or complimentary" on it, yet their patients don't. Whether or not these alternative treatments work, D.O.s, as a byproduct of their education model, are usually more willing to at least investigate and learn about the treatment while not refuting it outright, because once again, patients dont. Last year in the U.S., more people purchased a herbal drug than purchased a prescription drug. This tells you that the patient population is drifting away from the traditional tide of medicine to one including more self-responsibility of health and experimentation. They now need to demand their physicians are trained in these alternative therapies, not so much as to offer them, but at least to understand how these alternative therapies interact with traditional modalities... whether or not the alternative method has been proven in JAMA.

Before you label me as a tree-hugging liberal who has his herbs lined up in the medicine cabinet, please believe I am not. I am about as conservative as they come. I was first urged into osteopathic medicine about 4 years ago by a friend of my family, an MD actually. He's a soon-to-be General, is a director of trauma for the Army in the Southeastern Asian theatre, and was just accepted to the astronaut class of 2008. He relayed the same argument to me that I just relayed to you. He doesnt have anything against MDs or their philosophy, he's ivy league trained. He just sees the direction the pulse of medicine is going over the next 20 years and he's witnessed D.O.s to have just as much knowledge in the traditional sense, plus a bit of a refreshingly different outlook on life. His analogy was "Pizza is good, but pizza with pepperoni is even better". D.O.s have all the ingedients in quality, now they just need the quantity. This will happen, albeit slowly. The AOA is organized, much more so than the AMA if one analyzes the two groups closely, and they're hell bent on providing those numbers over the next 20 years. D.O.s will never outnumber MDs, but IMO, D.O.s will offer the U.S. more of a judicious system of checks and balances in efficient and effective healthcare implementation. They apparently already have by the fierce hatred and disregard you seem to have for the profession, so I guess we're doing our jobs. The MD world honestly does seem very threatened by a group of people they otherwise label as less intelligent and otherwise inferior. If they didnt feel this way, why would this thread have grown so much so fast with such fervor in the language?

Anyway, this dissertation is the reason why, since given the choice, I gladly traded off having to explain what a D.O. means for, IMO, a more complete training and the ability to practice medicine how I want to practice it. Granted I could have practiced "like a D.O." as an MD, but it was the educational model I was really after. I wasnt in it for the glamour. After the training many docs and patients alike dont notice a difference between D.O.s and M.D.s practice styles. But, listen if you will to this analogy which summarizes how I have come to understand it all: 2 identical neighboring houses are built in slightly different ways, held together with different mortar and with nails in different places. The furniture is arranged differently on the inside and each has owner his own taste. Yet, both will equally stand up to the elements. Over time, the neighbors learn from each other, come to appreciate the other's style, and borrow tools. As time progresses the two styles begin to merge, yet there will always be some competition to see who has the nicer lawn and smarter kids. However, from afar, to a stranger, the two houses look remarkably similar...yet to the owners they still look somewhat different.

Some of the above may have been broad generalizations, and for that I apologize, but that's how people often chose a doctor, or a medical school for that matter.

Anyway, if you've read this far I applaud you. One thing I've definitely learned thus far is to worry about yourself and not as much about what the other guy is doing, for your success as a physician is not determined by your ability to discount his healing philosophy, it's determined by yours.

Enough for now. Sorry again for the length. Fire back at will.
 
Originally posted by FireAway
I can't believe you have to ask. Again, economics! DO schools are incredibly expensive, so many of these students opt for military scholarships.

And to whoever posted the list of hospitals that DOs rotate thru, you proved my point exactly, just with more words. 98% of those hospitals listed are nothings. That wasn't exactly a list of the who's who in medicine, and nevermind that but they aren't even the best in their own regions.
Click to expand...

Hmm

first point
Most DO schools are private institutions. And the tuition is comparable to MD private institutions. The state-affliated institutions (MSU, OSU, UMDNJ) have in-state tuitions comparable to in-state tuitions at other state schools.
But since you guys like numbers, here are some facts and figures
UMDNJ - School of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $17,362 in-state; $27,169 out-of-state
Oklahoma State University-College of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $11,557 in-state; $30,144 out-of-state
Michigan State University - College of Osteopathic Medicine
Tuition: $17,448 in-state; $37,248 out-of-state
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (private)
Tuition: $28,500
Nova Southeastern University - College of Osteopathic Medicine (private)
Tuition: $21,245 for Florida residents; $26,395 for out-of-state students

MD schools
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine (private)
Tuition - $33,316
UMDNJ - New Jersey Medical
Tuition: $$18,143 in-state; $$28,392 out-of-state
Michigan State University - College of Human Medicine
Tuition: $19,000 in-state; $40,000 out-of-state
Finch University - Chicago Medical School (private)
Tuition: $35,673
Jefferson Medical College (private)
Tuition: $31,958
New York Medical College (private)
Tuition: $32,730

Information about tuitions from DO obtain from AACOM website. Information about tuitions from MD schools obtain from their respective websites.

OK - now the second part. You claim that "98% of those hospitals listed are nothings." I don't know where you get your facts (I'm guessing you just pull them out of thin air), but the hospitals listed, MD students also rotate through them also. WHAT A SHOCK!!!
I'm most familar with Philadelphia, so ...

Christiana Care - Jefferson Medical
Crozer Keystone - Jefferson, Temple, Penn, Drexel, etc.
Albert Einstein Medical Center - Temple, Jefferson
Frankford - Temple
MCP - Drexel MCP/Hahnemann
Pennsylvania Hospital - University of Pennsylvania
Temple University - Episcopal - Temple
UPMC - Horizon System - University of Pittsburgh


What's the point of this posting? Don't confuse facts w/ belief. Just because you believe DO schools are more expensive doesn't mean it's true. Just because you believe that DO students rotate through no-name rural "so-called hospitals" doesn't mean it is true.

You can cite all the statistics you want about low GPA and low MCAT, but don't go stating stuff that you have no expertise in and have no facts to support your argument. Ironic how you will jump on OMM because it lacks proof (and I agree, it needs more studies), but then make statements and conclusions without any factual basis.

Sincerely,

your below-average second class pre-DO student
 
Ocean-

I guess my beef with the philosophy of medicine that you describe above is that it is, to a certain extent, open to quackery. Without debating the merits of OMM or herbal remedies, I'd just say that modern medicine as an art is not far removed from leeches and patent medicines. Medical doctors, our colleagues that came before us, have worked hard to advance medicine as a science, to pull it out of the realm of treatments based on speculation and superstition, and into the realm of proven courses of treatments and medicines. This is part of the reason I think all doctors have an obligation to do some sort of research work, to show some stewardship for their profession. But I think there is a difference between doing research work with new treatments and flat out offering the treatments without testing.

At any rate, I feel this "anything goes" mindset is a step back for medicine. Yes, our patients may want some new treatment they saw on an infomercial, but I think a big part of our job is to educate the patients instead of giving into their whims. Sick people are often in a vulnerable position, and are easy marks for people hawking miracle cures and natural remidies. It should be our job to defend patients from these parasites, and not be the parasites themselves.

I guess some of the confusion on this board seems to come from the fact that most of the osteopathic posters are too quick to explain away the differences between the two schools. "Look at these allopathic residencies we get into", or "we learn all the same stuff in the same classes" or "osteopathic-trained Dr. X is attending surgeon at such and such hospital". That leaves the rest of us scratching our heads... because we wonder why those people didn't just go to allopathic schools.

Ok, time for bed.

Wrigley
 
Wrigley,

If you read my post, I never said that medical doctors, MDs or DOs alike, should buy into, endorse, or even suggest the use of these "infomercial miracles". All I said is that we should be trained on the substances, merely to know how they affect our patients health, in the positive or negative. D.O.s are, on the whole, more willing to learn about them and not display the knee-jerk reaction you exemplified nicely. You bought right into my arguement. Thank you. Your patients are going to take these drugs whether you recommend them or not. If you dont think so you're being naiive. With the recent increase in direct-to-market advertising of drug and herbal companies, not to mention the internet, your patients will come in knowing more than you about a particular drug. Guaranteed. Your automatic dismissal of the mere notion of alternative therapies as quackery is exactly what medicine must avoid in the future,... ie, not because physicians need to endorse these products, but instead to learn about them. I have never taken an herb, nor will I ever probably, but I know what they do so when my patient comes in with a slew of bottles he got at CVS, I'll be able to understand how they interact his Plavix, Enalapril and Lasix. If you dont understand this, or refuse to on the basis of it's classification as "alternative" your doing your patients a HUGE disservice. I agree with your research comment, no treatment should be offered without testing, and I never said anything to the contrary. We do very much owe future generations explanations for the remedies we offer, hence the reason why we need to learn about them and not dismiss them outright.

As far as OMM goes, like I said, it's physical therapy. I guarantee you'll refer your patients for PT, but probably not for OMM unfortunately, when in fact physical therapy has its roots and foundations in osteopathic medicine. OMM is a nice example for D.O.s to parade out explaining their theory of the "body as a whole concept with the innate ability to heal itself". It's a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Dont let a D.O. or D.O. premed tell you it's the basis of the profession, it aint. It's merely another tool and/or technique that a doctor can employ. If you dont want as many tools in your bag, who cares, other than your patients.

I dont hold any of your views against you. I was probably once alot like you too, but I one day started to think for myself instead of forming my thoughts based on message boards and adcoms. Dont fall into the puppet trap of being told what to say and how to say it, cause y'all sound like one big premed tape recorder right now. good luck...
 
Its all economics folks. As I said before, the AOA is just trying to breed itself into the medical culture, and these osteopath schools that pop up overnight are just there to cash in on all the people who couldn't get into allopathic schools.
Click to expand...

Let's know what we're talking about before we open our mouths, shall we? First, the executive director of the AOA, John Crosby, used to be Vice President of the AMA. He was in charge of governmental relations under the Clinton Administration, is a very big democrat, and basically wrote and directed the failed attempt at American health policy reform for the Clinton folks. Right after health care reform failed in the mid-90s, he left the AMA because he realized mainstream medicine in this country is disorganized and fractionated, thus inhibiting any reform, for the better or worse. He joined the AOA because, although they were a minority, they are unified and slowly but surely gaining marketshare in the american healthforce. He saw the opporunity to mold this young ball of clay into the ideal healthcare model. While it wont happen overnight, it will make a dent, and already has. For example, much of the lobbying for PLI reform has been accomplished by D.O.s, not M.D.s If you dont believe me, call your congressman and ask how many D.O.s have been on the Hill lobbying over the past year, then how many M.D.s. I can tell you the answer to save you your cellular minutes.

Regarding the opening up of D.O. schools "overnight", this is far from the case. The most recent school, the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine, on the campus of Virginia Tech, is opening with a foundation of $100 million dollars from private donors. I havent heard of an MD that's ever opened their doors with that much money in the bank. The donors believe in osteopathic medicine, not in seeing a profit from it. Since these schools are non-profit, it will be impossible for these folks to earn their money back and hence they cant "cash in on all the folks who didnt get into allopathic school". While D.O. schools may have felt some growing pains over the past 10 years, they're starting to hit their stride. They must be making some waves, for like I said, I cant imagine how a group of supposedly inferior and less intelligent people could have such a dramatic and zealous effect on premedical message boards! 🙂

night!
 
I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.
 
Originally posted by CJ2Doc
1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
Click to expand...
umm.....i dont what year of the usnews you're reading, but last time i checked upenn is top 5 and jefferson is in the 40s somewhere 😀
 
That's your order? I know you don't want anyone's opinion, but I'll give mine anyways. 😀

I can't believe you have Temple below PCOM or LECOM. Temple is nationally known for kick-ass clinical experience. That's great that you're all into the "it doesn't matter if you're a DO or MD" attitude, but aren't you at least considering schools with superior clinical experience as being more attractive?

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by CJ2Doc
I'm tired of the MD/DO debate, because you never sway anyone from either side. The prejudice is so imbedded in your personality that it will take actual experience in the field to get rid of it (ie, a DO attending, or DO PD for your choice residency) Anyway, I'm a non-trad who will be applying to 8 schools, all PA, both MD and DO, due to my family situation. My plan is to go to the best school that accepts me regardless of degree awarded. Based on my research and personal opinion, here's how my list goes (today):

1. Penn (I'll p1ss my pants if I get in here)
2. Jeff (higher ranked on US News than Penn, but hey)
3. Pitt
4. PCOM (I like Pitt more academically, but location wise PCOM will probably jump to #3 by app time)
5. Penn State
6. LECOM
7. Temple
8. Drexel

I'll probably get flamed, but that's how I plan to decide. Just giving myself the best chance out there.
Click to expand...

Dude you must be really bright or really stupid, I?m thinking just really stupid. It is offensive for you to put U. Penn and PCOM in your top 5 rankings. U. Penn has an average mcat of 34-35, while PCOM has an average mcat of 24-25, I don?t know you, but I?m pretty sure you won?t be given this as a choice to make. $hit I could?ve not even taken the verbal section on the mcat and still scored higher then PCOMs? average.
 
Man, people are sooooo worked up over averages.

When I was deciding which schools to attend (Temple, PCOM, Jefferson among some of them), I didn't care about their average GPA or MCATs or penile length or whatever - because it has nothing to do w/ me.

I was looking at student body, facilities, clinical oppertunities, research oppertunities, faculty, tuition/fees, etc.

If you are into research, then Jefferson and Penn are more appropriate than Temple or Drexel or PCOM. Temple is great, but it's in a bad neighborhood and has substandard facilities (one of the reason why they are on LCME probation). Jefferson has great research and great clinical experience, but the tuition and cost of living in center city means $$$$$$$$ 🙁

Anyway, people have their own priorities. Some may choose Penn over PCOM, while others will choose Temple over Penn. I'm not the "PRO-DO ALL THE WAY" type. In fact, I don't care what degree I get - as long as I can practice medicine with it. And I'm not too big on name dropping too. Nothing annoys me more than people who name drop - "What!?! You expect me, a Hopkins grad, to do a H&P on that new kid!?! - Why not let that PCOM grad intern do it instead"

Anyway, as I always advocated - choose the school based on personal preference. If you are uncomfortable with a DO degree - then don't apply to DO. If you want to be in academic medicine, then Penn might be a better option than PCOM. If you are interested in rural medicine, then PCOM (or WVCOM) might be a better option. If you have a need to be in a top-tier school, then go to a top-tier school. However, don't go around bashing other people's choices - they might have different priorities and ideals and circumstances that might be different from your priorities and circumstances.

To CJ2DOC,

Good luck with the admission process. Fortunately, PA has a boat load of schools (PCOM, LECOM, Pittsburgh, Penn State, Temple, Drexel MCP/Hahnemann, Jefferson, UPenn). Just curious - why aren't you considering Penn State or Drexel?
 
Hi group_theory,

I'm surprised that I hear that people are "afraid" of Temple's campus. I'm female and live by myself on-campus and feel totally safe.

For some reason, I get the impression that people don't realize that the surrounding neighborhood has changed a lot over the years (for the better). The immediate vicinity of campus is fine. I just use common sense. I wouldn't venture by myself in the outskirts of North Philly by myself late at night, but I also wouldn't do that in Pittsburgh (a relatively "safe" city).

It's kind of funny when I hear men say that they're "afraid" of the campus because I don't hesitate to go out at late at night to run an errand; I just stay close to main campus (right off of Broad street).

There are security guards EVERYWHERE in the middle of the night. It's really uncanny (the 3rd largest police force in the state of PA is Temple's campus police).

The campus is very well-lit at night. In fact, I heard that it's the most lit-up city block intersection in the country. I don't know if that stat is true, but I wouldn't be surprised because it's literally lighter in the middle of the night at Temple than it is in Pittsburgh at dusk.

About the facilities: I personally think they're great. I've had no complaints whatsoever about them. Anyways, the school has already made strides in this area. You can read an excellent post by phillystyl with comments regarding Temple improvements.
 
I'm actually not that afraid of temple's campuses, including the health science center.

I grew up in the projects, and my family somewhat still lives in the ghetto of North Philly. It would be nice to not spend the next 2-4 years in the same-type of neighborhood (university city is vastly different). However, the reason why Temple has a great clinical education is because it is in a bad neighborhood. That's where all the bad cases are seen.

If you are in a hospital in suburbia, you won't see the interesting trauma cases (multile GSW to the head, chest, etc) and assults/battery, etc. Nor will you see people who have diseases due to lack of medical treatment. That's why Hopkins, HUP, Temple, Cook County General - have great EM residencies and great IM programs.

I know about the improvements that Temple is making. However, I want to benefit from those improvements, not be a student in a construction zone. And quite frankly, by the time the renovations are complete, I may well be in MS-III or MS-IV (or have graduated) and thus won't benefit from these improvements.

In no way am I saying that Temple is a bad school. In fact, it is an excellent school, producing great physicians and researchers. However, in my case, I decided that Temple wasn't the right fit for me. As stated in the Osteopathic forum - the best school is the school you end up going, not some stupid listings from USNews, or Child Magazine or Who's Who in America's Hospitals.

My message is simple - whatever medical school you go to (DO or MD or Carrib. MD), you'll still learn the same materials. Pick the school that you feel that you will be happiest, most comfortable, where you can spend the next 2 years crammed in lecture halls, etc. Don't pick it based on USNews ranking (for all we know, Harvard may drop to tier-2 in USNews next year, or lose its LCME accrediation). Don't pick it based on average GPA and average MCAT - because it doesn't apply to you. Don't pick it because all your friends will go "WOW!!". Most people don't care if you go to HMS or Local Community College College of Remedial Medicine - as long as you are caring, competent, and provide treatment to their complaints and problems.

OK, after that long lecture, I'm going to my Wharton classes now - you know, this dump below-average second-class pre-DO student needs to know how to milk the cow 🙂

Just remember - not all DO students are functional idiots with a combine MCAT score of 10. Just like not all pre-MD (or MD students) in this posts are jerks w/ egos bigger than a super red giant star 🙂 Look at the individual
 
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