Quit whining

[EMH]

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There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

EDIT: I realize at this point that I chose a poor thread title. Something more along the lines of "choose your attitude" was what I was going for.

 

[Law2Doc]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

I actually think the whining serves a huge purpose on SDN (in addition to being an avenue for venting anonymously). Folks shouldn't launch into a profession thinking everything is rosy. If folks can learn early on about some of the negatives, it helps temper expectations, and lets folks make informed decisions. Folks who want to whitewash things are doing newbies a disservice. Every job may have problems, but they are all different and all things you'd like to know about early on before you head into that direction. There was an article a few years back about employers concerned that the expectations of med school grads in terms of hours, salary, etc were simply unrealistic, what the article described as having an "air of entitlement". It's much more productive if folks come off of SDN with a more realistic, even cynical sense of what to expect, in terms of the downsides.

 

[SomeDoc]

In terms of desired outcome; realistic sense of the milieu, yes. Cynical sense? No thanks.

 

[Biscuit799]

Not to mention that while every job has its downsides, I can't think of a singe profession that needed a congressional ruling to cut its workweek DOWN to 80 hours. "The coffee sucks" is nothing compared to "my wife is divorcing me because I'm never home to help her with the kids and I make less money than a waitress."

 

[nowanmd]

EMH- just wait- I have no regrets being a doctor-i was a nontrad and went to med school at 39 - but.... doctors (esp primary care) are not fairly compensated for the work they do- you have alot of training ahead of you- it will not be easy and when you start practicing your lunch will be eaten by insurance companies and administrators(who work a hell of alot less than you and don't have any where near your education or training) So don't whine, work hard become a great doctor- but know what you're getting into- and you guys (the new crop) stand together and fight to make our jobs better-stand up to the insurance companies- restore dignity and fairness to this very noble profession!

 

[smq123]

EMH- just wait- I have no regrets being a doctor-i was a nontrad and went to med school at 39 - but.... doctors (esp primary care) are not fairly compensated for the work they do- you have alot of training ahead of you- it will not be easy and when you start practicing your lunch will be eaten by insurance companies and administrators(who work a hell of alot less than you and don't have any where near your education or training) So don't whine, work hard become a great doctor- but know what you're getting into- and you guys (the new crop) stand together and fight to make our jobs better-stand up to the insurance companies- restore dignity and fairness to this very noble profession!

I totally agree, and, I have to say that now that I'm a third year med student and actually taking care of patients, I'm getting more and more concerned about malpractice premiums and insurance companies. What do you suggest that medical students can do to help "restore dignity and fairness"? Everyone tells me to contact my congressmen, but they've been zero help so far. (Ha - maybe I'll bug them repeatedly, just like the nurses page the intern repeatedly if he doesn't respond right away! 😀)

 

[rgarrig]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

Lame.

Objectively, doctors work more hours on average than other professions, probably deal with more regulations/red tape than any other profession, and doctors ARE having their real dollar incomes cut year after year, while being given less prestige, respect, and independence and having a harder time getting into medical school and through residency without ending up miserable +/- broke; overall quality of life/income/etc. - the full compensation package - is diminishing rapidly.

Sure, all careers have their pros/cons, but few have gone from the top of the heap to somewhere right smack in the middle, all within a few short decades. That's bound to piss some people off. You may argue that it's 'just', that this is the way it should be - e.g. doctors should make pittance and be doing it 'to serve others', but just understand that when you (1) make the work harder and (2) reduce the compensation, people will resent it, regardless of other factors. And medical students paying $60K a year to join this sinking ship may really resent it.

 

[Sartre79]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

You could also just ignore those threads and not read them if you don't like them. 😱 Let other people vent...sometimes it's nice to know there are other people out there feeling the same thing...at least they are trying to reach out to others and are not climbing a bell tower instead.

 

[Corker]

Just thought I'd add that teaching is another profession where people are underpaid for their credentials, suffer danger and threats of lawsuits (even when innocent of wrongdoing), work long hours (without extra pay), and are losing respect in the eyes of the public. I think this is a universal problem of American society...not unique to the field of medicine.

 

[SocialistMD]

Just thought I'd add that teaching is another profession where people are...losing respect in the eyes of the public.

Do you think this is true? I think most people still hold teachers in high regard.

 

[MSKalltheway]

Do you think this is true? I think most people still hold teachers in high regard.

I do think so at least. As rising professionals, I think we would be more likely to respect teachers highly because we value education highly (at least I hope this is the case!), but there are many parents out there who constantly disrespect their children's teachers--its not just the kids anymore. Not to mention the pay is also a giant slap in the face...I'm glad that you seem respectful of them though, they need the love 🙂

 

[Crixivan]

I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special.

I agree with this, but majority of the people in my medical school haven't had a real job before and thus have a hard time relating to this point.

Folks shouldn't launch into a profession thinking everything is rosy. If folks can learn early on about some of the negatives, it helps temper expectations, and lets folks make informed decisions. Folks who want to whitewash things are doing newbies a disservice. Every job may have problems, but they are all different and all things you'd like to know about early on before you head into that direction.

Agree, but it unfortunately seems like the newbies cling to their idealistic viewpoints in light of reality.

On one hand, I hear about how salaries are dropping and that the profession is doomed. On the other, I have a friend who just signed a $250,000/year contract as a hospitalist seven months after finishing his IM residency. Of course, he has to work 70 hours a week and is never really free to do much given his call schedule, but it certainly doesn't reflect the "average" salary I see quoted for a new internist.

We won't find out if the whining is justified for several years.

 

[Law2Doc]

but it certainly doesn't reflect the "average" salary I see quoted for a new internist.

By definition an average means some earn higher than it and some earn lower. No single data point should be expected to reflect the average. That your friend is earning so much higher than average probably means multiple people are earning a lot worse than average.

 

[Corker]

Do you think this is true? I think most people still hold teachers in high regard.

Unfortunately this is true. Of course, students who hang out on a forum like this (and their parents) still hold teachers in high regard (thank goodness). Without those students, I think many teachers would leave the profession altogether. I am talking about the masses, though. It wasn't like that thirty years ago. Teachers were highly respected. We now live in a litigious society where everyone wants to point the finger of blame at someone else. Parents who have had serious challenges in their own lives (and now have children who are reflecting the sour grapes of those challenges) often have difficulty accepting responsibility for the problems. Many would rather blame the teacher for the student's behavior. It's a shame because there are some really great teachers out there who care a lot about kids. (I am talking about secondary public school teachers, by the way.) Anyway, many professionals are suffering from this plight...not just doctors.

 

[EMH]

Do you think this is true? I think most people still hold teachers in high regard.

I think teacher have it much worse all around. In my state they have to have a B.S. and then a one year special masters just to teach k-12. They often start out below 30k (depending on the district). They have to deal with ALL of society's kids, not just the ones who want to go to school. And many parents not only aren't appreciative of their children's teachers but view them in a negative light because they're old fashioned, picky, mean, too demanding, or what ever else.

 

[Crixivan]

That your friend is earning so much higher than average probably means multiple people are earning a lot worse than average.

I think that what it means to me is that the average is different for people willing to tolerate different lifestyles. The money is still there if you're willing to move and/or place your career ahead of your family. It's just not as easy as "MD=wealth" which is what a lot of people perceive.

 

[Taurus]

MS1's should save their breath and wait until they're further along before they start lecturing everyone about what medicine is really like.

 

[45408]

Most people generally whine too much. Oh well. I think I've got my eyes wide open as to what to expect in my future, and I'm generally pretty excited for the future. I'm married, and my wife works, so I know what kind of life we have on a given income (an enjoyable one), and I'm almost guaranteed to be making double what she makes now, plus what she makes. Life should be good. It won't be yachts and Koenigseggs, but I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it. Med school has been hard, but I'd generally say that the first two years have been pretty interesting and challenging, in a good way.

 

[NonTradMed]

As a nontrad, I'm not surprised that many medical graduates come out shocked at their first job as residents.

Residency is no cakewalk, but couple that with the fact that it's your first 'real' job, it can be doubly stressful.

I still remember my first my first 'real' reprimand at my first 'real' job. It's not easy taking criticism from your boss at a job that you care about when you're only "bosses" thus far as been professors.

As students, which is what most med students have been all their lives, we are treated much better than as workers because professors' are not negatively affected when we are lazy, bosses can see their promotion disappear if their subordinates do not meet expectations. Added to that, the stress of residency, and you got a lot of new medical grads who are miserable.

Then you also got doctors who have never worked at anything else, so then they complain and think that the 'grass is greener'. Medicine certainly has its problems but I've heard complaints from many other professions.

When I told my coworkers I was going to med school, many of them thought it was great I was leaving IT for the 'lucrative' world of medicine. Many at my company were averaging 50+ hrs/week on a regular basis, 70hrs during high rev time, making half to 2/3rd of what the average primary care doctor is making, and there was fear in the background about outsourcing (we were already hiring Indians in India to replace some of our jobs). So people complain about that.

My parents are biologists who see doctors living far better than them yet they find their job just as pertinate (they test new drugs). Biologists are in school a long time and it's a publish or perish world, so they can rack up a lot of hours too if they want to come within shooting distance of a 'doctor's salary'. They also think doctors have it better. And I've spoken with quite a few that thought I was dumb to give up the corporate world for medicine.

Doctors certainly have a lot to complain about, but I hear about so much complaint from other professions I'm not sure how much of the doctor's complaints is unique to medicine and how much of it is just normal griping.

 

[EMH]

As a nontrad, I'm not surprised that many medical graduates come out shocked at their first job as residents.

Residency is no cakewalk, but couple that with the fact that it's your first 'real' job, it can be doubly stressful.

I still remember my first my first 'real' reprimand at my first 'real' job. It's not easy taking criticism from your boss at a job that you care about when you're only "bosses" thus far as been professors.

As students, which is what most med students have been all their lives, we are treated much better than as workers because professors' are not negatively affected when we are lazy, bosses can see their promotion disappear if their subordinates do not meet expectations. Added to that, the stress of residency, and you got a lot of new medical grads who are miserable.

Then you also got doctors who have never worked at anything else, so then they complain and think that the 'grass is greener'. Medicine certainly has its problems but I've heard complaints from many other professions.

When I told my coworkers I was going to med school, many of them thought it was great I was leaving IT for the 'lucrative' world of medicine. Many at my company were averaging 50+ hrs/week on a regular basis, 70hrs during high rev time, making half to 2/3rd of what the average primary care doctor is making, and there was fear in the background about outsourcing (we were already hiring Indians in India to replace some of our jobs). So people complain about that.

My parents are biologists who see doctors living far better than them yet they find their job just as pertinate (they test new drugs). Biologists are in school a long time and it's a publish or perish world, so they can rack up a lot of hours too if they want to come within shooting distance of a 'doctor's salary'. They also think doctors have it better. And I've spoken with quite a few that thought I was dumb to give up the corporate world for medicine.

Doctors certainly have a lot to complain about, but I hear about so much complaint from other professions I'm not sure how much of the doctor's complaints is unique to medicine and how much of it is just normal griping.

That's my point exactly, but better written.

 

[Re3iRtH]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

I agree with this thread 100%. Good work EMH.

 

[EMH]

MS1's should save their breath and wait until they're further along before they start lecturing everyone about what medicine is really like.

This isn't so much about what medicine is like but more about what the world is like. As Cheech and Chong said "Man, things are tough all over."

 

[dilated]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

This is precisely the attitude which causes physician respect, salary and autonomy to drop every year. Bravo. It could always be worse, so how dare you complain! You did forget to add something about how it's the "younger generation's" fault, though.

I can't remember the last time I saw a nurse complain about crappy work conditions and be told "you have it great, how could you possibly complain". Oh wait, that's right, because nursing culture isn't ******ed like medicine in that aspect.

 

[smq123]

As a nontrad, I'm not surprised that many medical graduates come out shocked at their first job as residents.

Residency is no cakewalk, but couple that with the fact that it's your first 'real' job, it can be doubly stressful.

I still remember my first my first 'real' reprimand at my first 'real' job. It's not easy taking criticism from your boss at a job that you care about when you're only "bosses" thus far as been professors.

I don't buy this. Provided that you reasonably challenge yourself during your third and fourth years, there is no real reason why residency should be your first "real" job.

True, during third year you don't have the responsibility of a resident, but you'll keep roughly the same hours and should be on call when they are on call.

You get a LOT of criticism during third and fourth year, so you should be somewhat used to it when you do residency.

As students, which is what most med students have been all their lives, we are treated much better than as workers because professors' are not negatively affected when we are lazy, bosses can see their promotion disappear if their subordinates do not meet expectations. Added to that, the stress of residency, and you got a lot of new medical grads who are miserable.

When you're a third year med student, if you're lazy, you slow down the whole team. If you don't think that a surgery resident will not, at some point, scathingly comment on your lack of a work ethic, think again.

You're treated worse than as workers when you're a med student - you're the perfect victim. You can't complain, at some schools your evaluations aren't read (fortunately mine is not one of them), and you can't talk back.

Then you also got doctors who have never worked at anything else, so then they complain and think that the 'grass is greener'. Medicine certainly has its problems but I've heard complaints from many other professions.

When I told my coworkers I was going to med school, many of them thought it was great I was leaving IT for the 'lucrative' world of medicine. Many at my company were averaging 50+ hrs/week on a regular basis, 70hrs during high rev time, making half to 2/3rd of what the average primary care doctor is making, and there was fear in the background about outsourcing (we were already hiring Indians in India to replace some of our jobs). So people complain about that.

My parents are biologists who see doctors living far better than them yet they find their job just as pertinate (they test new drugs). Biologists are in school a long time and it's a publish or perish world, so they can rack up a lot of hours too if they want to come within shooting distance of a 'doctor's salary'. They also think doctors have it better. And I've spoken with quite a few that thought I was dumb to give up the corporate world for medicine.

Doctors certainly have a lot to complain about, but I hear about so much complaint from other professions I'm not sure how much of the doctor's complaints is unique to medicine and how much of it is just normal griping.

Complaints that (in my opinion) are unique to medicine:

• The fact that most of your paycheck is already spoken for. Student loans will eat up a large percentage of your salary. Malpractice premiums, which keep skyrocketing, eat away at another portion.
• In most jobs, 4 other entities do NOT tell you how to do your job on a day to day basis. This is not the case in medicine, where your treatment decisions are constantly attacked by the patient, the patient's family, the hospital's administration, and insurance companies.
  
  If it were about anything else, then it wouldn't be so bad - but they're dictating how you can take care of someone's life. That's really frustrating.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Talk to me when you are a resident.

 

[CptCrunch]

But I don't wanna.

 

[H_Caulfield]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

EDIT: I realize at this point that I chose a poor thread title. Something more along the lines of "choose your attitude" was what I was going for.

Go **** yourself. Physicians are in positions every day of far more importance, consequence, and stress than are any of the people in the other jobs you mention... and you cite these people as having similar problems?

Physicians' problems, contrary to what you believe, are NOT like anyone else's. They complain about "the man" because they've had their entire profession hijacked, are now unable to charge what they want for their own services, and have their medical decisions superceded by people who've never had a lecture on physiology in their lives.

Again, go away. Put on that smile you must get from having the gov't force you into taking 40% less in payment than you'd have gotten 10 years ago for the same procedures, all because a third of the population hasn't yet evolved and knows nothing but how to breed uncontrollably, collect handouts, and then rob the very people who've made those handouts possibly.

Seriously, I hope they rob you.

 

[NonTradMed]

I don't buy this. Provided that you reasonably challenge yourself during your third and fourth years, there is no real reason why residency should be your first "real" job.

True, during third year you don't have the responsibility of a resident, but you'll keep roughly the same hours and should be on call when they are on call.

You get a LOT of criticism during third and fourth year, so you should be somewhat used to it when you do residency.



When you're a third year med student, if you're lazy, you slow down the whole team. If you don't think that a surgery resident will not, at some point, scathingly comment on your lack of a work ethic, think again.

You're treated worse than as workers when you're a med student - you're the perfect victim. You can't complain, at some schools your evaluations aren't read (fortunately mine is not one of them), and you can't talk back.

The corporate environment, I have felt, gives their workers far less recourse when there is a problem. And one of worst things about working is that you are stuck with your boss. You can leave a rotation after it's done. There's no 'waiting it out' when you are working on a project unless you put effort into finding another team to transfer to (and your boss could still say no to the transfer). Your boss is your boss unless there's a reorg or you transfer yourself out.

People who create problems in the workplace, people who complain about their bosses, who 'talk back' are put on 'lists' (yeah, our workplace used to talk about people who get put on lists for various things they do). You get put on too many of these lists, your next eval may come out poorly. No bonuses, no pay raise and they put you on the next layoff.

Standard policy for most medium-sized or large companies to fire 5% of their employees every year anyways. Also, at least at my company and at my parents' company, your supervisor has to put everyone's rating on a bell curve. So your boss has to give poor ratings to a certain number of people within each group, and if you complained too much, you went over your boss' head about something, you talked back etc, you get ranked 'unsatisfactory' and they give you the automatic boost. In other words, they HAVE to 'fail' a certain number of people every year per company policy to cull the weak. At my medical school, our school don't have a policy to fail a certain percentage of people every year. In fact, they try to keep you on even if you fail your exams and/or fail the boards. Maybe other medical schools have a certain percentage of people that they fail every year.....

Despite medical school's hardships, I feel it is still more forgiving to its students and to student misbehavior than companies are to their employees. Med schools DON'T want you to fail. Companies aren't as nice about holding your hands.

One friend experienced depression during med school and was given medical leave to come back and repeat. There are plenty of companies that would never be that generous. In fact, one of my co-worker had cancer and found out he was let go before he could come back. I guess he could sue maybe...but he's not getting his job back.

A friend at my old work place was given the boot because his boss hired him, then decided he was incompetent. He couldn't even transfer himself to another team. You can also get booted out of med school for failing academically, but I find med school are more willing to give second chances (so to speak) then companies are. This guy got one shot at proving himself, then he was canned. Med schools have policies regarding failure which are far more lenient than my last employer. So all in all, I find med school want as many to pass the boards and graduate as possible. Corporations are not in the game to keep as many of their employees as possible.

 

[LJDHC05]

I can't remember the last time I saw a nurse complain about crappy work conditions and be told "you have it great, how could you possibly complain". Oh wait, that's right, because nursing culture isn't ******ed like medicine in that aspect.

Nurses, for the most part, have a union to represent them. They have a contract that stipulates they have 7.5 minutes of break time per hour of work, paid vacation, time and a half for overtime that they work and sick days. This is because, for the most part, they are dealing with the patients one-on-one, sponge bathing them, cleaning their bed pans, and doing all the stuff that we see as below us or not part of our job. When they strike (an organized form of complaining), everyone eventually listens because medicine stops without them.

When was the last time Physicians as a group could actually get together and agree on something? Would anyone listen even if we did? I'd say never and no because of the broad range of personalities in this profession and the position we hold towards the top of the socio-economic and medical care ladder, respectively. And no, the AMA does not constitute the voice of every physician.

 

[LJDHC05]

The corporate environment, I have felt, gives their workers far less recourse when there is a problem. And one of worst things about working is that you are stuck with your boss. You can leave a rotation after it's done. There's no 'waiting it out' when you are working on a project unless you put effort into finding another team to transfer to (and your boss could still say no to the transfer). Your boss is your boss unless there's a reorg or you transfer yourself out.

People who create problems in the workplace, people who complain about their bosses, who 'talk back' are put on 'lists' (yeah, our workplace used to talk about people who get put on lists for various things they do). You get put on too many of these lists, your next eval may come out poorly. No bonuses, no pay raise and they put you on the next layoff.

Standard policy for most medium-sized or large companies to fire 5% of their employees every year anyways. Also, at least at my company and at my parents' company, your supervisor has to put everyone's rating on a bell curve. So your boss has to give poor ratings to a certain number of people within each group, and if you complained too much, you went over your boss' head about something, you talked back etc, you get ranked 'unsatisfactory' and they give you the automatic boost. In other words, they HAVE to 'fail' a certain number of people every year per company policy to cull the weak. At my medical school, our school don't have a policy to fail a certain percentage of people every year. In fact, they try to keep you on even if you fail your exams and/or fail the boards. Maybe other medical schools have a certain percentage of people that they fail every year.....

Despite medical school's hardships, I feel it is still more forgiving to its students and to student misbehavior than companies are to their employees. Med schools DON'T want you to fail. Companies aren't as nice about holding your hands.

One friend experienced depression during med school and was given medical leave to come back and repeat. There are plenty of companies that would never be that generous. In fact, one of my co-worker had cancer and found out he was let go before he could come back. I guess he could sue maybe...but he's not getting his job back.

A friend at my old work place was given the boot because his boss hired him, then decided he was incompetent. He couldn't even transfer himself to another team. You can also get booted out of med school for failing academically, but I find med school are more willing to give second chances (so to speak) then companies are. This guy got one shot at proving himself, then he was canned. Med schools have policies regarding failure which are far more lenient than my last employer. So all in all, I find med school want as many to pass the boards and graduate as possible. Corporations are not in the game to keep as many of their employees as possible.

While the points you raise are excellent, the one major thing that differs between us and the corporate world is that in the corporate environment, they're paying you for work and if you're incompetent you're hurting their bottom line, you're dragging down the productivity of others, you matter to the organization as a productive member of society. Why should they pay you if you're not living up to the expectations?

In medical school, you're the customer and if you're willing to pay another $60k to repeat what you failed or missed, it's actually to their benefit. It doesn't really matter who's ass is filling the seat, as long as it's full. There's a 95% chance you're going to pass the boards if you're a US student, there's a 95% chance you're going to not fail out of school, and a 5% chance that they're going to make another lump of cash off of you. The whole enterprise is about training you, so they assume that you're incompetent from the get go. They give you useless tasks like taking a complete H&P at 6 AM for a patient that was rounded on less than 12 hour ago. (Yes, he's still in the same bed, on the same meds with the same complaints as he had when he went to sleep. Oh and he's farted twice!) The inefficiency is built into the business model and any little contribution that you happen to make is great, but you don't really matter to the bottom line because there are 200 people that will take your place. Your incompetence can even benefit the hospital when the attending is able to bill all of the extra diagnostic work you did.

Yeah, we kvetch alot as a group here on SDN and in real life to each other, but who doesn't sit around the water cooler complaining that their life could be better?

 

[Law2Doc]

but who doesn't sit around the water cooler complaining that their life could be better?

Just to correct your corporate cliche, usually folks stand (not sit) around the water cooler (it is frequently in a hallway or in a corner of a copy room), and, because a water cooler tends to be at work, you generally don't complain there. That's where you talk about TV shows with the other folks who also really should be working. You complain about your life when away from work, not when the boss is in earshot. 🙂

 

[PoorMD]

some good points raised on this thread. i agree that all fields of work will take their fair share of lumps, for example IT with outsourcing, the lack of manufacturing jobs in the US, etc. But to say medicine is a sinking ship seems a bit cynical. You don't have to work 80+ hours a week after residency. You don't even have to work 60 if thats too much. I know several residents who signed for part time positions, so they could have a life outside of their work. The one that comes to mind: family med position, working three days, 13 hours each day, one call day during her off schedule days, with a guaranteed salary of $125K and full range of benefits.

That may be the rare exception, but even after you subtract the $10k for loans, the $30k for tax, and $20k for malpractice, she is CLEARING $60K which is modest indeed, but not bad considering she only works 3-4 days each week. I know, I know- $60K is not what most of us signed up for. But you can, and most of the posters on here seem to, get the stars out of your eyes and realize its a good living with lots to be happy about. I know a PhD chemist who just got laid off from a major chemical company after 20+ years of service to the company. He was making roughly $100k and now he has no job and two kids in college. He had about as much schooling as us, yet his future is uncertain. That doesn't happen very often to doctors. If a certain private practice downsizes, there will be another that needs an associate attending. A doctor will always have work, which in itself is more valuable than any particular set point salary.

 

[DrDude]

When was the last time Physicians as a group could actually get together and agree on something?

"Organizing physicians to come together is like trying to herd cats."

 

[chicklett1]

It's a privilege to practice (or train to practice) medicine and be in a position in society where you can really observe and participate in peoples lives on a profound level. Most doctors work really really hard and make sacrifices that few people would accept. But in the end, MDs find themselves in the top income brackets (even after loan payments) and with a fair amount of respect within the community. It's certainly inconceivable that most MDs would ever have to worry about affording, say food to eat. And most doctors won't ever be in a position where they have no job prospects whatsoever--even if they might not be in the most desirable location.

That said, there are still tremendous problems with the system--and maybe even the culture of our society that make being a doctor unnecessarily arduous and painful. Long work hours, the ridiculous cost of an education, endless paperwork, and a deeply entrenched hierarchical system early in training make a lot of people bitter, and understandably so.

I think it's totally appropriate to want to reform the current system to make our lives easier and more balanced. I think it is inappropriate to have a sense of entitlement.

 

[DrDude]

That said, there are still tremendous problems with the system--and maybe even the culture of our society that make being a doctor unnecessarily arduous and painful. Long work hours, the ridiculous cost of an education, endless paperwork, and a deeply entrenched hierarchical system early in training make a lot of people bitter, and understandably so.

The saying "If it were easy then everyone would do it" comes to mind.

 

[ineedsleep]

Just 'cause medicine is a good field doesn't mean that it couldn't be better. I think whining whether justifiable or not is a basic human thing.

 

[rgarrig]

Go **** yourself. Physicians are in positions every day of far more importance, consequence, and stress than are any of the people in the other jobs you mention... and you cite these people as having similar problems?

Physicians' problems, contrary to what you believe, are NOT like anyone else's. They complain about "the man" because they've had their entire profession hijacked, are now unable to charge what they want for their own services, and have their medical decisions superceded by people who've never had a lecture on physiology in their lives.

Again, go away. Put on that smile you must get from having the gov't force you into taking 40% less in payment than you'd have gotten 10 years ago for the same procedures, all because a third of the population hasn't yet evolved and knows nothing but how to breed uncontrollably, collect handouts, and then rob the very people who've made those handouts possibly.

Seriously, I hope they rob you.

Nice upper cut, Holden. As an aside, I love that book. It's in my top 10 for sure!

 

[Corker]

Nice upper cut, Holden. As an aside, I love that book. It's in my top 10 for sure!

My #1 favorite, actually. Where do the ducks go....?

 

[mashnuts]

Go **** yourself. Physicians are in positions every day of far more importance, consequence, and stress than are any of the people in the other jobs you mention... and you cite these people as having similar problems?

Physicians' problems, contrary to what you believe, are NOT like anyone else's. They complain about "the man" because they've had their entire profession hijacked, are now unable to charge what they want for their own services, and have their medical decisions superceded by people who've never had a lecture on physiology in their lives.

Again, go away. Put on that smile you must get from having the gov't force you into taking 40% less in payment than you'd have gotten 10 years ago for the same procedures, all because a third of the population hasn't yet evolved and knows nothing but how to breed uncontrollably, collect handouts, and then rob the very people who've made those handouts possibly.

Seriously, I hope they rob you.

 

[EMH]

Go **** yourself. Physicians are in positions every day of far more importance, consequence, and stress than are any of the people in the other jobs you mention... and you cite these people as having similar problems?

Physicians' problems, contrary to what you believe, are NOT like anyone else's. They complain about "the man" because they've had their entire profession hijacked, are now unable to charge what they want for their own services, and have their medical decisions superceded by people who've never had a lecture on physiology in their lives.

Again, go away. Put on that smile you must get from having the gov't force you into taking 40% less in payment than you'd have gotten 10 years ago for the same procedures, all because a third of the population hasn't yet evolved and knows nothing but how to breed uncontrollably, collect handouts, and then rob the very people who've made those handouts possibly.

Seriously, I hope they rob you.

I'm afraid I'd take you more seriously and even respond to your post if you didn't start and finish your post with a personal attack. I hope you win the lottery.

 

[rgarrig]

Go **** yourself. Physicians are in positions every day of far more importance, consequence, and stress than are any of the people in the other jobs you mention... and you cite these people as having similar problems?

Physicians' problems, contrary to what you believe, are NOT like anyone else's. They complain about "the man" because they've had their entire profession hijacked, are now unable to charge what they want for their own services, and have their medical decisions superceded by people who've never had a lecture on physiology in their lives.

Again, go away. Put on that smile you must get from having the gov't force you into taking 40% less in payment than you'd have gotten 10 years ago for the same procedures, all because a third of the population hasn't yet evolved and knows nothing but how to breed uncontrollably, collect handouts, and then rob the very people who've made those handouts possibly.

Seriously, I hope they rob you.

I'm afraid I'd take you more seriously and even respond to your post if you didn't start and finish your post with a personal attack. I hope you win the lottery.

Don't be a coward. You haven't made your case at all, you just started a thread to whine about other people whining and Holden gently placed the smack down, then you got scared and e-ran away.

Fight fight fight fight!

 

[EMH]

Don't be a coward. You haven't made your case at all, you just started a thread to whine about other people whining and Holden gently placed the smack down, then you got scared and e-ran away.

Fight fight fight fight!

What ever happened to debate? I do recognize that I was ranting about people ranting. I confess it is not my place to tell people what they can rant about and my original post was trolling a bit. I consider myself open minded and able to listen to an opposing view which I think is something that is often lost on the internets. I intended to start a discourse on this after I had a bad interaction that day.

To refine my position: Rant if it makes you feel better, but don't dwell in the negativity for your own sake. Instead be thankful for what you have, recognize what things you can work to make better and take action, recognize what you're just going to have to accept and deal with it.

I could write an essay about all the issues this has brought up in my head if I could write worth a darn.

 

[PoorMD]

EMH you made plenty of good points, but its true there is room for improvement in our field. so maybe a little bit of open mindedness on your part would take you a long way. for example, listening to some of the griping might reveal areas of medicine that you would want to avoid, such as Ob/gyn due to the ridiculous coverage costs.

as for these clowns that want to 'uppercut' or post with instigating personal attacks, just ignore them

 

[rgarrig]

as for these clowns that want to 'uppercut'

🙂 it was a joke

 

[medicinesux]

Talk to me when you are a resident.

Ibid

 

[TheLesPaul]

In terms of desired outcome; realistic sense of the milieu, yes. Cynical sense? No thanks.

I just got a mental picture of Dave Chappelle saying "realistic sense of the milieu" while high on crack.

Hilarious.

 

[goodoldalky]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

EDIT: I realize at this point that I chose a poor thread title. Something more along the lines of "choose your attitude" was what I was going for.

With all due respect, "medical student," you have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to come back in 15 years and lecture everyone about what a career as a physician is like, go ahead, but considering your level of experience in medicine, you may be jumping the gun.

And let me remind you, that from what I have heard from people who are further in the field than myself, medical school is the easy part.

 

[45408]

And let me remind you, that from what I have heard from people who are further in the field than myself, medical school is the easy part.

Getting paid regularly has a way of assuaging the pain.

 

[Keberson]

Just thought I'd add that teaching is another profession where people are underpaid for their credentials, suffer danger and threats of lawsuits (even when innocent of wrongdoing), work long hours (without extra pay), and are losing respect in the eyes of the public. I think this is a universal problem of American society...not unique to the field of medicine.

They work 9 months out of the year, work NO weekends, take NO call! Lawsuits? What are you talking about. YOu are 100 times more likely to be sued in medicine than in teaching.

 

[Sartre79]

WTF??? are you crazy. They work 9 months out of the year, work NO weekends, take NO call! Lawsuits? What are you talking about. YOu are 100 times more likely to be sued in medicine than in teaching.

Teachers work hard....typically longer than a standard 8 to 5 in my experience, and they put in even longer hours if they coach a sport, do year book, etc. I have a couple of friends who teach and coach from college, and they put in long days. I'm not saying their days are as long as docs, but they should still be respected for the things they do.