Quitting in the middle of medical school

[iceman132]

I talked to my friend in M2 a little while ago and she told me that a good chunk quit during their first year.

Some thought they weren't smart enough.... And the majority that quit had a spouse and children.

So from medial school students and pre-meds... What are some stories you have heard about people quitting medical school?

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[Charles Darwin]

From what I've heard, there's only a ~10-15% attrition rate for US allopathic schools.

 

[PeterPesto]

From what I've heard, there's only a ~10-15% attrition rate for US allopathic schools.

Wow, I'm kind of surprised the attrition rate is that high. While the curriculum is rigorous the intent is not to "weed out" students.

 

[aSagacious]

Try 3-4% for US MD schools. https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

 

[blizzah]

From what I've heard, there's only a ~10-15% attrition rate for US allopathic schools.

I was going to ask the OP, what school? Ross?

 

[PeterPesto]

Try 3-4% for US MD schools.

That seems more in keeping with my what I initially thought. This isn't law school, where the attrition rate is much higher.

 

[CodeBlu]

Try 3-4% for US MD schools.

This is correct.

 

[iceman132]

Alright, a "Good chunk" may have not been the best choice of words.

You guys are missing the point. The point of this thread was to see what kind of stories people have of the reasons ppl quit medical school. I thought it was interesting ppl thought that they were too "dumb" when they already made it in medical school.

 

[aSagacious]

You guys are missing the point. The point of this thread was to see what kind of stories people have of the reasons ppl quit medical school. I thought it was interesting ppl thought that they were too "dumb" when they already made it in medical school.

Anything under the sun. There is the occasional student who slipped through the screen who probably shouldn't have been in med school in the first place. The majority (at least at the two schools where I have experience with med school faculty) are for family reasons or unanticipated life events. Since it's such a small fraction it would be hard to make generalizations though.

 

[CodeBlu]

Anything under the sun. There is the occasional student who slipped through the screen who probably shouldn't have been in med school in the first place. The majority (at least at the two schools where I have experience with med school faculty) are for family reasons or unanticipated life events. Since it's such a small fraction it would be hard to make generalizations though.

Family reasons are a big one... or the student just realized medicine wasn't the place for them.

 

[iceman132]

Anything under the sun. There is the occasional student who slipped through the screen who probably shouldn't have been in med school in the first place. The majority (at least at the two schools where I have experience with med school faculty) are for family reasons or unanticipated life events. Since it's such a small fraction it would be hard to make generalizations though.

I'm not really asking for specific generalizations (Although they can be included). Just any type of story you've heard.

For instance, a doctor told me that a couple of medical students he knew just quit after the first year because they had no passion for medicine whatsoever. They just couldn't think of a better option.

Any story is fine.

 

[Gigantron]

I know of a medical student at my program who quit in his third year. He was an OOS student so at that point, he was already 150k in debt. As it turns out, he decided that 110% that medicine was not for him, yet he waited until his THIRD year to actually make a move. Nobody really knows where he is at the moment.

Apparently he had really good stats too. Like he had great preclinial grades, a pretty good STEP 1, etc.

 

[CodeBlu]

I know of a medical student at my program who quit in his third year. He was an OOS student so at that point, he was already 150k in debt. As it turns out, he knew 110% that medicine was not for him, yet he waited until his THIRD year to actually make a move. Nobody really knows where he is at the moment.

Not surprising... but I agree though... usually after M1 is when a lot of the cuts happen.

Then again... some people really like science... then M3 hits and it's no longer enzymes and memorization charts... it's applied science with dirty, smelly people.

Hence the lovely LizzyM's "If you can smell the patient, it is a clinical experience"

 

[Charles Darwin]

Try 3-4% for US MD schools. https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

Where did you see that info? I saw 10-15% after 4 years and ~5% after 7 years. The stats on the second page refer to students leaving for "Academic Reasons" so...?

 

[DrBowtie]

It says ~80% after 4 years and ~96% in 10 years.

 

[iceman132]

I know of a medical student at my program who quit in his third year. He was an OOS student so at that point, he was already 150k in debt. As it turns out, he decided that 110% that medicine was not for him, yet he waited until his THIRD year to actually make a move. Nobody really knows where he is at the moment.

Apparently he had really good stats too. Like he had great preclinial grades, a pretty good STEP 1, etc.

Unless his parents are loaded I don't see how he could just quit like that.

Even if you quit during M1 or M2 I don't see what a person would do. Just so much expense.

 

[Charles Darwin]

It says ~80% after 4 years and ~96% in 10 years.

 

[aSagacious]

Where did you see that info? I saw 10-15% after 4 years and ~5% after 7 years. The stats on the second page refer to students leaving for "Academic Reasons" so...?

First page

Between 80.6 percent and 82.2 percent of each of the three cohorts in the study graduated in four years. By the fifth year, the overall graduation rate for the three cohorts climbed to 91.3 percent...Within seven years, 94.2 percent had graduated. A small number, including those in combined and dual degree programs, completed their M.D.s over longer periods, resulting in a 10-year completion rate of 96 percent for all three cohorts.

 

[CodeBlu]

Unless his parents are loaded I don't see how he could just quit like that.

Even if you quit during M1 or M2 I don't see what a person would do. Just so much expense.

If it was me... I would go through and finish the MD... lots of pharma companies want consultants... not to mention you could go and get an MBA from PEMBA at UTennessee online... 50k and you can open your own medical school or become head hospital administrator and never have to touch people.

 

[Charles Darwin]

First page

So it took them 10 years to graduate at 3-4%...

The majority of people will be following the cohort that expects to graduate after four years.

 

[aSagacious]

So it took them 10 years to graduate at 3-4%. After four years ~80% graduated, which is much closer to my estimate.

After you consider the fact that MANY students participate in one year research externships, others participate in dual degree (MPH, MBA, etc) programs, and yet another cohort participate in MD/PhD programs you'll see why this is not comparable to 'attrition.'

 

[Charles Darwin]

After you consider the fact that MANY students participate in one year research externships, others participate in dual degree (MPH, MBA, etc) programs, and yet another cohort participate in MD/PhD programs you'll see why this is not comparable to 'attrition.'

So it's not really feasible to estimate attrition unless we have the % of people in dual degree programs.

 

[aSagacious]

So it's not really feasible to estimate attrition unless we have the % of people in dual degree programs.

- You know the 4-year graduation rate is ~80%
- You know the overall attrition rate is ~4%
- Subtract their sum from 100% and you can estimate the average 'non-traditional' med student population to be ~16%

 

[Charles Darwin]

- You know the 4-year graduation rate is ~80%
- You know the overall attrition rate is ~4%
- Subtract their sum from 100% and you can estimate the average 'non-traditional' med student population to be ~16%

Ok, but that 16% could be comprised of dual degrees who finish somewhere between 5 and 9 years OR people who drop out somewhere between 5 and 9 years. Right?

 

[aSagacious]

Ok, but that 16% could be comprised of dual degrees who finish between 5-9 years or people who drop out between 5-9 years.

No it can't because when all is said and done 96% of the people who stepped foot into med school graduated with an MD in no more than 10 years.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Nvm

 

[aSagacious]

Are the majority of people in med school really doing dual degrees though?

No, approximately 16% are (or something equally time consuming).

 

[Charles Darwin]

No, approximately 16% are.

I know. Still seems a little high...

 

[aSagacious]

I know

Oh, I get what you were trying to say. Still, if someone asks 'what is the attrition rate' it would be more accurate to say 4% than 10-15%. The latter doesn't tell the whole story and is quite misleading.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Oh, I get what you were trying to say. Still, if someone asks 'what is the attrition rate' it would be more accurate to say 4% than 10-15%. The latter doesn't tell the whole story and is quite misleading.

Neither are completely accurate. I'd like to see statistics on students pursuing an MD separate from students pursuing dual degrees.

I'd also be interested in seeing the attrition rates of each individual med school because I'm sure the numbers at UPenn are a bit different than those at SGU...

 

[CodeBlu]

Neither are completely accurate. I'd like to see statistics on students pursuing an MD separate from students pursuing dual degrees.

I'd also be interested in seeing the attrition rates of each individual med school because I'm sure the numbers at UPenn are a bit different than those at SGU...

I'd like to see these numbers also... but I'd like to mention that I support those who want to go to the Caribbean, especially SGU. Anywhere else... I'd think twice.

Reality is... even excellent Carib schools like SGU are diploma mills. They have 3 start dates, Sept, Jan and May... sort of ridiculous if you ask me.

Thing is... they can afford to do this. There just isn't enough money/resources to do this at US allopathic schools.

I foresee things becoming MUCH more difficult for IMGs in the next 10-15 years, especially with the increased medical school enrollment numbers slated for 2016-2020.

Medical school seats are increasing, but residency spots are not increasing proportionally. Most hospital systems in my area are privately funding 50-100 residency spots per year. Just to keep up.

 

[aSagacious]

Neither are completely accurate. I'd like to see statistics on students pursuing an MD separate from students pursuing dual degrees.

Why is this relevant? To answer your other question, 15.7% of MD graduates had another graduate degree (p.6)

I'd also be interested in seeing the attrition rates of each individual med school because I'm sure the numbers at UPenn are a bit different than those at SGU...

That's a safe assumption.

 

[UnclePhil]

Med schools try to keep you from leaving. They are investing a ton of effort and money into you, even if you are flunking, you will have chances to remediation. Leave of absences are also granted if you find that you need to take some time away.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Why is this relevant? To answer your other question, 15.7% of MD graduates had another graduate degree (p.6)


That's a safe assumption.

Well, for starters, some students decide to quit their MD/JD or MD/PhD programs and dropout completely while others simply switch to straight MD. Do you chalk that up as a dual-degree dropout or an additional MD student or...?

 

[aSagacious]

Well, for starters, some students decide to quit their MD/JD or MD/PhD programs and dropout completely while others simply switch to straight MD. Do you chalk that up as a dual-degree dropout or an additional MD student or...?

Like I said, at the end of the day 96% of MD matriculants eventually end up with an MD. To the lay man, 4% is the attrition rate. Case closed.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Like I said, at the end of the day 96% of MD matriculants eventually end up with an MD. To the lay man, 4% is the attrition rate. Case closed.

fair enough

 

[DrBowtie]

Why is this relevant? To answer your other question, 15.7% of MD graduates had another graduate degree (p.6)


That's a safe assumption.

Doesn't mean that all 15.7% got those graduate degrees during their medical education either.

I'd estimate my school is about the same as the quoted stats. My original cohort is around 70-80% graduate in 4 years.

 

[iceman132]

I recall my class had a student who had withdrawn and re-enrolled twice during the pre-clinical years. We had none that know of who willingly quit, though I'm sure on paper most (if not all) of those who were "asked" to leave will be recorded as voluntary withdrawls. I'm not sure what the impetus is to get students to "quit" rather than just expel them, but residencies do the exact same thing so it must be something to do with the lawyers.

I was miserable in my pre-clinical years and desperately wanted to quit. I couldn't, since I was on military scholarship, but if I had had any other options I would have.

My medical school was very good at supporting the weak students, and very good at the whole touchy-feely hugging thing. They were not good at dealing with someone like me. I did not understand why my aggressiveness was discouraged, or the desire to do more than what was offered was considered some kind of sin. Everything was focused on public health and primary care, and any suggestion that you weren't considering these fields was something of a heresy to the regular teaching staff. It was all very . . . and forgive me for saying this, but I can't think of any other way to describe it . . . feminine.

After enduring nearly two years, I was emotionally done. I explored options on how to withdraw without ending up as an unrated Seaman chipping paint on a destroyer, but there were none. Fortunately I stuck it out, because I blasted Step 1, got my specialty of choice, and am moderately satisfied with my current surroundings. Still, if I could go back and do it over again, I would never have started in the first place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have a world of respect for people who quit this field, especially when they are in medical school, with all the financial and emotional pressure trying to force you to stick it out. Anyone who decides to bail in their pre-clinical years has my undying admiration.

Why were people usually "kicked" out for?

 

[CodeBlu]

All those that I know of were academic failures or inability to pass a Step exam. I never saw anything else (misconduct, failing the OSCE, etc).

I've heard of a student being asked to leave because they had inappropriate relations with hospital staff AT the hospital, during duty hours.

 

[sector9]

I've heard of a student being asked to leave because they had inappropriate relations with hospital staff AT the hospital, during duty hours.

pics or it didn't happen... oh wait

 

[CodeBlu]

pics or it didn't happen... oh wait

 

[iceman132]

Since when does that get you in trouble? Weak...

Boning on the job will get you kicked out of whatever company your doing work for

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Why is the attrition rate so high for law school than medical school? I thought medical school will have a higher attrition rate

 

[Political]

Get real. This stuff happens every day in hospitals and everyone knows it. People brag about it. No reason to toss someone out of med school for something that residents due with impunity.

speaking from experience?

 

[Hotshy]

Why is the attrition rate so high for law school than medical school? I thought medical school will have a higher attrition rate

I feel as if it takes a much greater investment of time and energy during the undergrad years to acquire a medical school acceptance vs. a law school acceptance. I have friends that didn't do anything during undergrad, got a 3.3 and did okay on the LSAT and are in law school. Where as a pre-med ideally wants a 3.7+, score well on the MCAT, research, medically volunteer, non-medical volunteer, and have leadership positions. Big difference at least in my opinion, unless you are talking like top law schools. It's easy to bail on something when your commitment was never tested before grad school.

What I'm getting is that those who make it to medical school really want to be there, and if they find out that it may not be the best fit for them they stick it out anyway because they have already invested so much time into the process.

 

[iceman132]

Get real. This stuff happens every day in hospitals and everyone knows it. People brag about it. No reason to toss someone out of med school for something that residents due with impunity.

You watch a lot of day time soaps don't you?

 

[iceman132]

I feel as if it takes a much greater investment of time and energy during the undergrad years to acquire a medical school acceptance vs. a law school acceptance. I have friends that didn't do anything during undergrad, got a 3.3 and did okay on the LSAT and are in law school. Where as a pre-med ideally wants a 3.7+, score well on the MCAT, research, medically volunteer, non-medical volunteer, and have leadership positions. Big difference at least in my opinion, unless you are talking like top law schools. It's easy to bail on something when your commitment was never tested before grad school.

What I'm getting is that those who make it to medical school really want to be there, and if they find out that it may not be the best fit for them they stick it out anyway because they have already invested so much time into the process.

Agreed 100%

B average? Good LSat? Few EC?

You are in law school

Med school is a lot harder to get into.

 

[CodeBlu]

Agreed 100%

B average? Good LSat? Few EC?

You are in law school

Med school is a lot harder to get into.

Yeah... but what kind of law school?

A 3.9 and a 173 will you get into Columbia.

A 3.5 and a 162 will get you into Cooley or a state school.

The Columbia grad will get better jobs/internships etc, no matter what. While the guy in the bottom 25th at Cooley will get... well... nothing too appealing.


Now the MD comparison...

A 3.9 and a 36 will get you into a top 20, maybe even a scholarship.

A 3.5 and a 31 will get you into your state school and maybe some top 50 schools.

The difference? The 3.9/36 kid might do decent on Step 1 (210ish) and could go on to do internal medicine, while the 3.5/30 can go on to do rad/onc or derm with a balling (245+) step 1 score and excellent aptitude for medicine.

In short... medicine... doesn't matter where you went to school, as long as it's in the US. They are all LCME accredited, hence they have to teach the same stuff.

It matters where you go to law school... find me a Harvard law grad making less than $100,000/year after 3 years of graduation. It'll be pretty hard.

Find me a lawyer from a no-name law school that makes 40-50K... easy.

 

[Barcu]

Why is the attrition rate so high for law school than medical school? I thought medical school will have a higher attrition rate

I was under the impression that it wasn't the nature of law students or med students, but it all came down to money (surprise!).

Med schools are considerably more expensive to run than law schools. Law students are just tuition-payers (and donors) while med students are investments. The school would lose money kicking out med students.

The resources available to prevent me from failing out are incredible, and while I would love to believe that is because the school really cares about me as an individual, I think it is a bit more than that.

 

[Hotshy]

Yeah... but what kind of law school?

A 3.9 and a 173 will you get into Columbia.

A 3.5 and a 162 will get you into Cooley or a state school.

The Columbia grad will get better jobs/internships etc, no matter what. While the guy in the bottom 25th at Cooley will get... well... nothing too appealing.


Now the MD comparison...

A 3.9 and a 36 will get you into a top 20, maybe even a scholarship.

A 3.5 and a 31 will get you into your state school and maybe some top 50 schools.

The difference? The 3.9/36 kid might do decent on Step 1 (210ish) and could go on to do internal medicine, while the 3.5/30 can go on to do rad/onc or derm with a balling (245+) step 1 score and excellent aptitude for medicine.

In short... medicine... doesn't matter where you went to school, as long as it's in the US. They are all LCME accredited, hence they have to teach the same stuff.

It matters where you go to law school... find me a Harvard law grad making less than $100,000/year after 3 years of graduation. It'll be pretty hard.

Find me a lawyer from a no-name law school that makes 40-50K... easy.

Totally agree with this post. It really does matter where you go for law school. If you get into a U.S. Med school and graduate you will do well for yourself at least financially. I feel like law is either feast or famine, but that's coming from a lay-person.