Rad Onc Twitter

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Simul, you now sound like Ken Olivier, who has been routinely ridiculed on this forum for having similar sentiments (I will not debate those who are anonymous! Are they even rad oncs??). Those not in power rely on anonymity to avoid having retaliation. You have transitioned from SDN to twitter successfully as you are an attending in a non-academic practice, something that can't be said for probably most folks on here (either a resident or an academic attending) where retaliation is not an insignificant consideration.

Not sure that's a fair comparison, but i get your point. KO still gaslights on many pertinent issues in 2020, where @SimulD has helped addressed these same issues head on at RO Twitter. I'm guessing he's frustrated by the folks maligning that program unfairly. He's not incorrect, pitt is a solid mid tier program from what i know of it and there are certainly many more malignant non-teaching scut-filled places one could train at than that.

Yes it sucks their chair is still there, but is it THAT relevant to the residents' training experience? People like Beriwal and Flickinger are great and far more involved in resident education.

That's like saying Drew M is representative of the training experience at Emory, a mistake i myself made on this forum, as Drew is mainly at the VA and isn't core faculty from what I've heard

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This will be my last post on this subject for a while. I have no “agenda” and other posters who are also familiar do not have “agendas”. We all want rad onc to improve and this involves dealing the the ugliness, past and present. Are we going to completely ignore that the poster posted a clearly racist story and once again doubled down today on his comments saying he still stands by his post? It is because it actually happened. Greenberger is still there. I don’t care if guy is hidden away in a lab or whatever RO1 he reviewed. Times have changed and this is just no longer acceptable. In my experience, when people tell you who they are, believe them.

stop trying to get people to go on Twitter and express views you know damn well will get people in trouble under the guise of transparency. There is a reason why anonymity exists. It is everything. Beneath a mask, it does not matter who is there, it is an idea that transcends body and individual identity. For me it is a desire to clean up our field and have good people so we can actually have a good field with positive people.

I encourage everyone to stay on SDN. I applaud Spratt for coming here and addressing things, and not immediately deleting his account. I love the diversity of ideas and views here!

I enjoy the conversations here very much and can see SDN is definitely noticed by the field. Anonymity is a must for truth during these times unfortunately. With that said, it would be interesting to see the dynamic if more people came on here with their real names :thinking:
 
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I enjoy the conversations here very much and can see SDN is definitely noticed by the field. Anonymity is a must for truth during these times unfortunately. With that said, it would be interesting to see the dynamic if more people came on here with their real names :thinking:

go ahead, tell us who you are
 
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Humans are very terrible at predicting the future , and I mean that across all facets of life. The reality is no one knows what the job market in general is going to look like as the economy continues to suffer. I don't know if that was acknowledged on this job talk. Wouldn't know as I didn't see any point in viewing it.

I can tell you this, it's highly probable (here I go contradicting myself, trying to be an arm chair intellectual is addictive) we've got the second wave of this pandemic coming in the next couple of weeks. Buckle up.
 
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That's the President of ASTRO saying "you need to be prepared to accept A job".

He claims that was the take-home of the ACR Webinar, which if true, was dressed up in the typical #RaRaRadOnc stuff.

I also suspect him admitting this is driven by the COVID-era job market.

Whatever.

Personally, this is what I've wanted from SOMEONE in our leadership for a long time. Just a plain, matter-of-fact, "the job you want probably will not be available to you out of residency but may eventually become available at some point in your career". No promises though!

Medical students, it's important to note that when we talk about "the job we want" the driving force behind that is geographic location, not necessarily choice of disease site(s)/salary/day-to-day structure/academic vs private etc. Simply - a geographic region.

I think it's safe to say that MOST other specialties which you can match into directly from medical school can guarantee you a job in a specific geographic region right out of residency - though the job itself might not be ideal.

On the plus side, I heard from one of the ACR panelists last night that the midwest is nice!!
 
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That's the President of ASTRO saying "you need to be prepared to accept A job".

Medical students, it's important to note that when we talk about "the job we want" the driving force behind that is geographic location, not necessarily choice of disease site(s)/salary/day-to-day structure/academic vs private etc. Simply - a geographic region.

I think it's safe to say that MOST other specialties which you can match into directly from medical school can guarantee you a job in a specific geographic region right out of residency - though the job itself might not be ideal.
Exactly
 
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View attachment 308883

That's the President of ASTRO saying "you need to be prepared to accept A job".

He claims that was the take-home of the ACR Webinar, which if true, was dressed up in the typical #RaRaRadOnc stuff.

I also suspect him admitting this is driven by the COVID-era job market.

Whatever.

Personally, this is what I've wanted from SOMEONE in our leadership for a long time. Just a plain, matter-of-fact, "the job you want probably will not be available to you out of residency but may eventually become available at some point in your career". No promises though!

Medical students, it's important to note that when we talk about "the job we want" the driving force behind that is geographic location, not necessarily choice of disease site(s)/salary/day-to-day structure/academic vs private etc. Simply - a geographic region.

I think it's safe to say that MOST other specialties which you can match into directly from medical school can guarantee you a job in a specific geographic region right out of residency - though the job itself might not be ideal.

On the plus side, I heard from one of the ACR panelists last night that the midwest is nice!!

Bingo bingo bingo

For me geography, happiness with practice, then money

I don’t care what disease site I treat (though of course I don’t necessarily love GYN or Peds)
 
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WOW thats such an honest assessment. Basically be happy you get ANY job directly from ASTRO president. Buckle up folks!
 
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View attachment 308883

That's the President of ASTRO saying "you need to be prepared to accept A job".

He claims that was the take-home of the ACR Webinar, which if true, was dressed up in the typical #RaRaRadOnc stuff.

I also suspect him admitting this is driven by the COVID-era job market.

Whatever.

Personally, this is what I've wanted from SOMEONE in our leadership for a long time. Just a plain, matter-of-fact, "the job you want probably will not be available to you out of residency but may eventually become available at some point in your career". No promises though!

Medical students, it's important to note that when we talk about "the job we want" the driving force behind that is geographic location, not necessarily choice of disease site(s)/salary/day-to-day structure/academic vs private etc. Simply - a geographic region.

I think it's safe to say that MOST other specialties which you can match into directly from medical school can guarantee you a job in a specific geographic region right out of residency - though the job itself might not be ideal.

On the plus side, I heard from one of the ACR panelists last night that the midwest is nice!!

Per ASTRO Prez, this is Rad Onc:
* 5y residency followed by...
* Few years of probable job agita (along with boards agita, zoinks) followed by...
* Increased probability of finding a good job as years go by.

Not wrong per se.
 
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Per ASTRO Prez, this is Rad Onc:
* 5y residency followed by...
* Few years of probable job agita (along with boards agita, zoinks) followed by...
* Increased probability of finding a good job as years go by.

Not wrong per se.

Just FYI for students looking at RadOnc, I spent almost 15 years in training after undergrad for this reality (MDPhD+residency).

My family doesn't understand why I've been warning them it's unlikely I'll be able to come home anytime soon.
 
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Just FYI for students looking at RadOnc, I spent almost 15 years in training after undergrad for this reality (MDPhD+residency).

My family doesn't understand why I've been warning them it's unlikely I'll be able to come home anytime soon.
A great hoodooery has been foisted on the most brilliant and talented minds in the country. It's because they were trained all their life to be kind and trusting and logical. Easy to take advantage of someone like that when you're not. But I sense even the kindest/most trusting/most logical are waking up....
 
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Very much a rumor, but I heard Eichler is filling his time with being President because he no longer had full time work and I heard he had looked for locums work in the Richmond area. Maybe someone in the Richmond area would no more but I find it very unsettling if this were true. I am fully against spreading misinformation but feel compelled to ask those that may know more to weigh in. I think it’s a huge problem if the Astro president doesn’t have the opportunity to full time work in his area and then telling people to take a job.
 
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Very much a rumor, but I heard Eichler is filling his time with being President because he no longer had full time work and I heard he had looked for locums work in the Richmond area. Maybe someone in the Richmond area would no more but I find it very unsettling if this were true. I am fully against spreading misinformation but feel compelled to ask those that may know more to weigh in. I think it’s a huge problem if the Astro president doesn’t have the opportunity to full time work in his area and then telling people to take a job.

WOW that is NUTS if true!
 
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would no more = would know more. sorry rushing between patients
 
Very much a rumor, but I heard Eichler is filling his time with being President because he no longer had full time work and I heard he had looked for locums work in the Richmond area. Maybe someone in the Richmond area would no more but I find it very unsettling if this were true. I am fully against spreading misinformation but feel compelled to ask those that may know more to weigh in. I think it’s a huge problem if the Astro president doesn’t have the opportunity to full time work in his area and then telling people to take a job.
The Richmond rad onc job market is like 10 pounds of sugar in a 5 pound bag... on the plus side it's getting de-Lee'd
 
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Very much a rumor, but I heard Eichler is filling his time with being President because he no longer had full time work and I heard he had looked for locums work in the Richmond area. Maybe someone in the Richmond area would no more but I find it very unsettling if this were true. I am fully against spreading misinformation but feel compelled to ask those that may know more to weigh in. I think it’s a huge problem if the Astro president doesn’t have the opportunity to full time work in his area and then telling people to take a job.
It's possible he was already retired/semi-retired and just wants to piddle around in Richmond.
Ironic though that he got his start in "The Music Man."
For those of you (who?!) who haven't seen it, it's a classic. And there's a classic song from it where part of the lyrics are "Ya got trouble." Yeah, we got trouble...
 
Bingo bingo bingo

For me geography, happiness with practice, then money

I don’t care what disease site I treat (though of course I don’t necessarily love GYN or Peds)
Describes me perfectly. Took a hit on #1 to get more #2/#3. Of course now getting 0/3 means success in eichlers mind
 
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When a resident leaves under such circumstances, there are two sides to the story. It isn't fair to that resident or the institution if we get into the details. I know for a fact the institution does not want to revisit this. If the resident does, they are welcome to.

Others may have different grievances (they obviously do for whatever reason), and I don't know about the supposedly racist Twitter post as I never saw it (although I have my suspicions if it was truly racist as such libery is taken with that word these days) that is referenced, but the singular issue, and it's a big one, I have with your program is what you all did to that resident. Everything else that was posted, I don't really care about. Fine, you have great training and objectively some really great junior faculty. But that doesn't change the facts of what happened in the past. Without being able to talk about the situation, which you are undoubetdly are not permitted to do, it is easy to hide behind the excuse that what's done is done and we don't have a time machine and we don't really want to talk about it. It's also easy to say that we don't know all the facts. That's true, we weren't physically in those meetings. But the evidence that this was a rotten decision is fairly overwhelming.

The fact of the matter is that advancing a resident to a PGY-5 position then ----canning that person, who objectively went on to become a board certified competent gainfully employed radiation oncologist, suggests that this person should have been allowed to graduate or further remedies offered. If this person couldn't find another residency, failed boards, had medical licenses revoked, etc, then the "two sides" argument might hold more water.

I have no doubt that there was a reason the decision was made to not graduate that individual. The only real legitimate reason to try and ruin someone's professional career like this would be either gross incompetence or irredeemable professionalism issues. Both of these situations would likely have reared their heads before the last year of training. And further, the fact that this person was deemed acceptable enough by another residency, graduated, became board certified, and achieved admirable employment all provide further evidence that this person probably did not have major professionalism or competency issues serious enough to warrant dismissal from the program.

You have to admit that this is a very bad look, and I think you all have a major challenge in overcoming the collateral consequences created by this decision, especially in a very uncompetitive residency market. As a MS4, a program with such a reputation would terrify me, and regardless of reputation for clinical training, I would put the program at the bottom of my rank list. As a junior resident, I would want to know that my program has my back and will do everything they can to help me try and succeed and not have to worry about losing my career over a hiccup or personal vendetta. I would want to know that they would view a failure to graduate me as a failure on their part to train me and believe that there was no way that this could happen.

Maybe the decision to not graduate the resident was completely justified and you all would do it again. I doubt it, but it's possible. More likely it was a mistake, and you all have the task of somehow convincing everyone that things like that won't happen again. Which is of course difficult if you can't talk about it openly.

Also, your call for censorship of this discussion because you don't like what's being discussed is fairly disappointing. If you don't like the story about the resident being fired, then you are free to jump in and defend why it was justified, on an anonymous account even. Censorship is never ok. Attacking the nature of anonymous discussion is essentially also an attempt to try and censor. It's an ad hominem. We're anonymous, so the discussion should be ignored.
 
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Very much a rumor, but I heard Eichler is filling his time with being President because he no longer had full time work and I heard he had looked for locums work in the Richmond area. Maybe someone in the Richmond area would no more but I find it very unsettling if this were true. I am fully against spreading misinformation but feel compelled to ask those that may know more to weigh in. I think it’s a huge problem if the Astro president doesn’t have the opportunity to full time work in his area and then telling people to take a job.
This would be shocking. Would love to know if this is true, when the guy is purporting that the radonc job market is “solid”
 
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Not sure that's a fair comparison, but i get your point. KO still gaslights on many pertinent issues in 2020, where @SimulD has helped addressed these same issues head on at RO Twitter. I'm guessing he's frustrated by the folks maligning that program unfairly. He's not incorrect, pitt is a solid mid tier program from what i know of it and there are certainly many more malignant non-teaching scut-filled places one could train at than that.

Yes it sucks their chair is still there, but is it THAT relevant to the residents' training experience? People like Beriwal and Flickinger are great and far more involved in resident education.

That's like saying Drew M is representative of the training experience at Emory, a mistake i myself made on this forum, as Drew is mainly at the VA and isn't core faculty from what I've heard

Was not comparing him to KO across the board, and I recognize the neck-sticking out that Simul does on twitter on a (near) daily basis. Meant it only in regards to that one comment of "Come talk to me without anonymity if you wanna **** talk my program, bruh".

But, I see how it may have come off that way that I was criticizing everything Simul has done, which was not my intention - simply to criticize his (last) post on SDN.
 
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Glad those guys are done posting at SDN then, go live in the twitter world. We have been here to inform med students and early Rad onc residents and guess what they finally listened. You’ll always put yourself at risk of going to a terrible program like Pitt where you’ll run into issues you don’t expect and might come across a bad apple or two. Can’t avoid that, will happen again somewhere else. But to put yourself in that situation and then have terrible job prospects too?! Wow, don’t let that happen to you, no matter how much support you get from faculty at your program (good chance you won’t get any) they can’t magically make jobs appear.

Everyone knows now, you only tread on rad onc if you absolutely love it or are a very low performing applicant, the smart money is gone now they aren’t taking dumb risks like that. Don’t find yourself holding the bag on your investment, it’s very common sense - they didn’t decrease any of the number of spots, selfish people run the field don’t join them. Stay away from programs like Pitt just don’t apply to them and stay away from rad onc esp if you’re a good applicant you have so many other good options
 
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Who was it? Name her.

After some discussion with other SDN members offline, it appears that the person directing all of this nastiness is a radiation oncolgist in Miami. I am fairly confident this is also the person I had the pleasure of dealing with and trying to remain professional despite snide remarks, hostility, and an outright patronizing attitude.

I wonder how many disease-free years, or outright years, she has personally trimmed off patients' lives by denying SBRT for oligiomets? Surely saved her clients bundles though.

The next time I have a denial I will be recording the conversation and informing her that I will be providing the patient with the recording of the call and the name of the physician who over-ruled my recommendations. This nonsense is unacceptable and can't be allowed to become the standard.

I edited the post to remove the name. I am not a lawyer and am unsure of the implications of this.
 
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Interestingly, in the end, when the “leaders” actually do something about it, it will be their idea and they will want credit for it.

ASTRO president says be happy you get A job. Be happy you can even breath any air. The only time you look at your peer’s bowl is to make sure they have enough.

These are interesting times for our great field. The best years are yet to come.
 
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The ABR got absolutely LIT UP over the weekend for this topic. It was beautiful to see. How are you going to call for for diversity in a specialty yet not create processes and policies which support such diversity? Pure lip service. It's 2020 - there are lactation pods in the most busted down airports. The ABR - the overlords of one of the most technologically advanced specialties - are confounded by breast feeding?

Honestly after all this virtual exam malarkey I am not surpised in the least. DO BETTER.
 
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The ABR got absolutely LIT UP over the weekend for this topic. It was beautiful to see. How are you going to call for for diversity in a specialty yet not create processes and policies which support such diversity? Pure lip service. It's 2020 - there are lactation pods in the most busted down airports. The ABR - the overlords of one of the most technologically advanced specialties - are confounded by breast feeding?

Honestly after all this virtual exam malarkey I am not surpised in the least. DO BETTER.

looks like TIMESUP on ABR. PW will rue day he crossed women. TIMESUP on PAUL WALLNER!!!
 
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The ABR got absolutely LIT UP over the weekend for this topic. It was beautiful to see. How are you going to call for for diversity in a specialty yet not create processes and policies which support such diversity? Pure lip service. It's 2020 - there are lactation pods in the most busted down airports. The ABR - the overlords of one of the most technologically advanced specialties - are confounded by breast feeding?

Honestly after all this virtual exam malarkey I am not surpised in the least. DO BETTER.

Why is this surprising to anyone? The ABR doesn't accommodate anything. If you had a heart attack during the exam, I have no doubts they would fail you on record, keep all of your money, and make you wait a year to do it again. I know someone who failed to become board certified because of severe anxiety. Not because he was an incompetent rad onc. Where's his accommodation? The ABR doesn't care how many careers they ruin, families they break apart, and lives they disrupt. Because it's all in the name of protecting the public (with a bunch of written exams with irrelevant minutae based on bogus statstical methods and a subjective oral exam, and of course letting old docs who don't know how to 3D plan continue to practice with their grandfathered lifetime certification)

If citizens of Minneapolis can convince their leaders to disband their entire police force, maybe there's hope we can get the ABR to eliminate orals and condense the process from 4 exams into one that you can keep taking until you pass. The whole process seems unnecessarily cruel. Whether the ABR leadership is going out of their way to make it extra cruel for women and minorities I can't say, but rotten attitudes begets further rottenness. Why are we still going through this academic hazing process well into our 30s?

You can certainly make an argument, whether you believe our field is actually filled with over bigots or whether you just believe in systemic prejeduice and that we all have inherent bias, that an oral in-person exam is discriminatory to women and minorities as the person can physically see you and make a subjective assessment.

Regardless. Enough already. Wallner needs to go.
 
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Is it now ethically wrong for an MD to allow herself or himself to be board certified by the ABR. Is this a disservice to patients... and to one’s soul? This is discrimination by definition.


 
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Orals absolutely trace their roots to racism. Many country clubs have an in person “interview” to “lay eyes” on you, look at your teeth, how you look, your shoes, how you speak. It is like buying a horse, you GOT TO look at the teeth.
Similarly so, the ABR, has a good old boys club last final check to “lay eyes”. Oh this person has a “weird” name, oh they are dark or “speak weird” , oh they are pregnant and want to feed their baby, yeah i don’t like this person, they sure can’t competently treat a breast! Not joining the country club today, NOT on my watch! This is the history and it is time to reckon with this folks!

it is time we retire this relic, Paul Wallner, put him out to pasture. He has bad teeth too.
 
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Is it now ethically wrong for an MD to allow herself or himself to be board certified by the ABR. Is this a disservice to patients... and to one’s soul?
Interesting point of view. Now that I'm thinking about it - I think it is ethically wrong to allow oneself to be board certified by the ABR based on their actions. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some ties to ISIS or Russia.
 
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Interesting point of view. Now that I'm thinking about it - I think it is ethically wrong to allow oneself to be board certified by the ABR based on their actions. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some ties to ISIS or Russia.
We now have story after story (see twitter and elementary school economics) of discrimination by the ABR. They’re harming careers via that method as well as just general blanket incompetence (radbio, virtual, etc). Add in the financial shadiness. We could go on.

Are we all really dumb and spineless enablers. When are we complicit versus victims.
 
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Orals absolutely trace their roots to racism. Many country clubs have an in person “interview” to “lay eyes” on you, look at your teeth, how you look, your shoes, how you speak. It is like buying a horse, you GOT TO look at the teeth.
Similarly so, the ABR, has a good old boys club last final check to “lay eyes”. Oh this person has a “weird” name, oh they are dark or “speak weird” , oh they are pregnant and want to feed their baby, yeah i don’t like this person, they sure can’t competently treat a breast! Not joining the country club today, NOT on my watch! This is the history and it is time to reckon with this folks!

it is time we retire this relic, Paul Wallner, put him out to pasture. He has bad teeth too.
This is very true sadly. Many Southern states, and this was true in South Carolina eg (May still be true!), you had to show up in person for a chit chat with a local yokel MD to get a medical license. Your paperwork and verified credentials were not enough.
 
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I have to admit I'm a bit giddy that the twitter woke-scold mob is after the ABR now. I don't like that the mob has such cancel power these days and has every corporation and organization in America on edge, but in this case enemy of your enemy and whatnot. Take em down!
 
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I have to admit I'm a bit giddy that the twitter woke-scold mob is after the ABR now. I don't like that the mob has such cancel power these days and has every corporation and organization in America on edge, but in this case enemy of your enemy and whatnot. Take em down!

I agree. Since the start of the boards fiasco, Twitter has started to feel like a non-anonymous SDN.

It's almost like...our criticisms of RadOnc were based in reality because we're...actually doctors in the specialty of Radiation Oncology? I'm sure Drew and KO would prefer that all of the issues we bring up were fake and histrionic but...maybe we actually know what we're talking about?
 
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I agree. Since the start of the boards fiasco, Twitter has started to feel like a non-anonymous SDN.

It's almost like...our criticisms of RadOnc were based in reality because we're...actually doctors in the specialty of Radiation Oncology? I'm sure Drew and KO would prefer that all of the issues we bring up were fake and histrionic but...maybe we actually know what we're talking about?

I have to admit I'm a bit giddy that the twitter woke-scold mob is after the ABR now. I don't like that the mob has such cancel power these days and has every corporation and organization in America on edge, but in this case enemy of your enemy and whatnot. Take em down!


It just shows the anger toward ABR and MOC goes across party lines and is just uniformly hated by all. I disagree with the woke crowd in almost everything, but it is interesting watching them eat the ABR alive.
 
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It just shows the anger toward ABR and MOC goes across party lines and is just uniformly hated by all. I disagree with the woke crowd in almost everything, but it is interesting watching them eat the ABR alive.
Seems like an allegory to this year's election...
 
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This thread hilarious IMO

KO gaslighting saying RO not hit hard and Simul and Mimi Knoll clap back









 
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ROhub gets in on the ABR bashing too, shout out to ABRO!
 

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ROhub gets in on the ABR bashing too, shout out to ABRO!
hehheh, LOL'd. This is almost like if someone said "Wish an NBA existed. You know, a National Brachytherapy Association."
 
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