Radiology resident AMA

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Wolf3D

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
197
Reaction score
285
I'm going into my 3rd year (out of 4) in radiology, planning on emergency rads fellowship. College, med school, residency all in the Northeast. Willing to answer questions and be helpful in whatever way possible, especially for those who might have an interest in radiology or EM, which were my top two choices in school. Try not to get too personal, don't plan on getting doxed here any time soon

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hi! Thank you for doing this! I’ve heard that a good amount of people who go into rads come from an engineering/tech background(or at least are pretty techy). How important do you think interests in those fields are for the speciality?
 
I'm going into my 3rd year (out of 4) in radiology, planning on emergency rads fellowship. College, med school, residency all in the Northeast. Willing to answer questions and be helpful in whatever way possible, especially for those who might have an interest in radiology or EM, which were my top two choices in school. Try not to get too personal, don't plan on getting doxed here any time soon

Why did you end up choosing rads over em?
And of course what does you avaerage work week look like. Hours off each night and weekend? Etc…
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Hi! Thank you for doing this! I’ve heard that a good amount of people who go into rads come from an engineering/tech background(or at least are pretty techy). How important do you think interests in those fields are for the speciality?
I can see why people say/think that but IME it's just an overgeneralization that's not quite true. In residency we do have to learn a good amount of technical minutia about the imaging modalities and equipment, or the "housekeeping" as I like to call it, but not to the degree of say what rad-onc needs to know and definitely not close to what surgeons need to know about their advanced equipment. At a baseline though, due to all the bells and whistles that come with radiology and using software and computers day in day out, residents and attendings definitely need to be able to adapt to change quickly. Not convinced that any pre-existing proclivity has a large hand in this is all
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why did you end up choosing rads over em?
And of course what does you avaerage work week look like. Hours off each night and weekend? Etc…
Patients are too smelly... /jk

I loved the EM atmosphere but just couldn't see myself carrying on with the lifestyle through having a family and settling down. The intensity of the shifts would just be too much as I try to spend more time with family and settle down. Radiology can give me the same level of breadth that I like to see and a much better work-life balance. It's an entirely different feeling to have to rush and read out 10-15 studies by the end of a shift than to rush dispo 10-15 patients by sign out on the ED side. Downside here is that I can't quite just take off half the year like ED can (depending on work environment, I could), but hey it's tradeoffs you know..

Average workweek varies a lot from year to year, then from program to program. Here R1 was nice, no overnight call (not allowed to) and very few weekends. R2 this past year was much worse, 2 full blocks (i.e., 7-8 weeks) of night float and basically q2 weekends. Total about 55-65 clinical hours/week. R3 looks about the same and then R4 here sees night float drop off a cliff, so you'd only work nights if you pick those electives. TLDR: radiology works a lot of nights, you'd better not hate working nights if you want to do this
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Soon to be MS2 here.

1. Any cool things happening right now in rads that those of us not in the field might not know about? New techniques, modalities, discoveries, etc?

2. I recently developed an interest in rads, and I find both DR and IR really exciting. Given the new integrated programs, I'm trying tease out which would be best for me, the new integrated or the traditional DR residency. Any advice at this stage of my med school career? Even though the integrated programs allow for dual-boarding in IR and DR, would you say there is a significant loss of DR skills in the integrated program?

3. What part of your day do you enjoy the most as a resident?

4. Shadowing in radiology isn't super productive as far as I can tell. Folks usually compare it to watching someone else play video games. Any books, videos, journals or anything else you would recommend to get as full a picture of the field as possible?
 
1) Is there anything that you know about the field now that you wish you understood as a med student?

2) How important is research in matching? Did you do rads specific research?

Thanks!
 
In your conversations with recent grads and attendings, are you concern with the way the job market is or becoming? I know that AI is over exaggerated, but what about telerads? Do you need extra fellowships to even be competitive for a desired city?
 
In your conversations with recent grads and attendings, are you concern with the way the job market is or becoming? I know that AI is over exaggerated, but what about telerads? Do you need extra fellowships to even be competitive for a desired city?

The radiology job market is quite good right now. Most good jobs are unadvertised, but the listings on the ACR website are still useful as a surrogate. The number of listings was recently above 700; compare that to double digits circa 2012.

Teleradiology has been around for awhile and is already baked into the equation. If anything, the pendulum had swung slightly back the other way as groups are starting to cover their own nights more.

Radiologists who don’t do a fellowship will appreciably limit their marketability. However, doing more than one is not necessary, especially in this market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Thanks for doing this. As an incoming M1, radiology, EM and psychiatry are my three main interests. (I far prefer problem solving to procedures, but I also like the fast-paced ED environment). In residency, how much time is spent on pattern recognition tasks that can in theory be automated (e.g. identify the tumor, stroke, fracture etc)? What is the job market and hours like for ED radiologists? Do ED radiologists do any procedures or otherwise directly involve themselves in patient care?
 
Thanks for doing this! I'm thinking about IM+ fellowship= 6 years. I'm guessing Rads+ fellowship also adds up to 6 years. You mentioned lifestyle difference between rads and EM. How would you compare rads lifestyle to a specialty like GI or Cards?
 
Soon to be MS2 here.

1. Any cool things happening right now in rads that those of us not in the field might not know about? New techniques, modalities, discoveries, etc?

2. I recently developed an interest in rads, and I find both DR and IR really exciting. Given the new integrated programs, I'm trying tease out which would be best for me, the new integrated or the traditional DR residency. Any advice at this stage of my med school career? Even though the integrated programs allow for dual-boarding in IR and DR, would you say there is a significant loss of DR skills in the integrated program?

3. What part of your day do you enjoy the most as a resident?

4. Shadowing in radiology isn't super productive as far as I can tell. Folks usually compare it to watching someone else play video games. Any books, videos, journals or anything else you would recommend to get as full a picture of the field as possible?
Great questions. Glad you are interested in this field already.

1. I'm not a research type of guy so honestly not the best person to answer this question. There are some things I've learned recently in R2 that I found to be very cool, but I'm not sure how "new" it is and whether it would make sense to someone who's not training in the field. Heh. As a rising R3 I'm still focused on my day-to-day learning, not really trying to shatter any glass panes before I get the basics down.

2. Integrated IR is the way of the future. Institutions like my own with a direct IR program are getting rid of their IR fellowship track completely in 1-2 years. But it takes time, most places aren't there yet. At your stage, this shouldn't impact you in any way. There is no significant loss of DR training in the IR programs, but inevitably there is definitely some loss, esp in the advanced modalities such as neuro or breast. However these aren't too relevant in IR so the difference is almost entirely non-palpable and no one cares. Figure out whether you want to radiology first before moving on to DR vs. IR residencies. Most places haven't caught up to set up integrated IR yet so your application choices will probably be mostly DR w/ IR fellowship, unless you're competitive enough to apply IR-only.

3. I like the part where I sit in front of a computer and am able to follow sports on one screen, images on another. :cigar: Night shifts are so much more bearable when there's an NBA or MLB game on.

4. The best way for you to learn more is to get involved with research with the dept at your school. You've already identified the inherent difficulties with learning radiology as a student and I honestly don't think there's any better way to learn more than to trudge through the research process. Doing a lit or systematic review as the foundation for any project would give you much better reading than anything I can prescribe to you at your current level. Another thing to do is to go to your program's morning resident conferences. Most radiology programs have case conferences in the mornings almost every day, something like 7:30a or 8:00a start time. These are teaching conferences so the cases will not be too complex all the time and will give you a very good exposure what it is that residents spend their time learning about. You might be a little lost at first but if you put in the time (which you certainly can as an M2 when you don't have required attendance....hopefully?) you'll be surprised at how much you'll absorb. Knowing the anatomy behind scans is important, yes, but 80-90% of this is just brute force repetition with appropriate context. Resident conferences will give you more than what you need at this stage. Then, look ahead and grab a radiology elective as humanly possible as your school's schedule allows. I was able to do my first rotation in spring of M3 given how my curriculum was structured and it was quite amazing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
1) Is there anything that you know about the field now that you wish you understood as a med student?

2) How important is research in matching? Did you do rads specific research?

Thanks!
1. Wish I knew how much clinical knowledge is really necessary to read out scans in the best way possible. I kind of blew off some of my later clerkships once I knew I wanted to do radiology since I thought all I needed to do were scans. LOL. Knowing how to put the scans in context with the latest most complicated medicine note is an art that's the bane of my life. lol. Do your rotations well, folks. All of it counts if you're going into a field as broad as radiology, EM, IM.

2. Not too important. Radiology isn't that competitive anymore. Standard answer as always, radiology programs always look favorably at research and the top programs (a la MGH, UCSF, Duke, JHU, Penn) are filled with classes of people who have littered CVs. So if you're gunning for a top program, better get some of it in. Put aside, research is really the best way for a med student to 1) learn about radiology and 2) show interest in the field. Otherwise, most of your med student training doesn't lend itself well to doing any radiology-specific until the middle or end of your M3 year. Sad reality but it's the case. I didn't do rads specific research b/c I fell upon radiology later in school than others, but I did a lot of research in QI, process-based management/health policy that lended itself really well to what some radiology research is focused on and got a lot of questions about it on the interview trail. Doesn't really matter. Do research if you like, rads specific if you find it interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In your conversations with recent grads and attendings, are you concern with the way the job market is or becoming? I know that AI is over exaggerated, but what about telerads? Do you need extra fellowships to even be competitive for a desired city?
This AI bull**** is super overblown. How fast do people think we're going to progress? The latest AI program approved by the FDA analyzes radial wrist fractures...and only slightly better than MDs can do it. We are decades away from an apocalyptic replacement of physicians reading out complex scans like CTs and MRIs that we get on the reg.

Market is not that competitive. Obviously desired cities are a little more competitive than usual, but nowhere near saturated. Telerads is seen as a threat because people don't want to work nights...well duh. If you don't want to work, then someone else is going to take your job. Plain simple. There's also no reason telerads can't become a niche itself for domestic MDs, as long as someone's willing to work those hours. Fellowships are becoming sort of a de facto requirement now for people to be efficiently marketable, as mentioned above. But that's fine, "general radiology" is way too ****ing broad and difficult to juggle as a full-time attending anyway, I'll happily whistle my way into fellowship and never read another mammogram again :asshat:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Thanks for doing this. As an incoming M1, radiology, EM and psychiatry are my three main interests. (I far prefer problem solving to procedures, but I also like the fast-paced ED environment). In residency, how much time is spent on pattern recognition tasks that can in theory be automated (e.g. identify the tumor, stroke, fracture etc)? What is the job market and hours like for ED radiologists? Do ED radiologists do any procedures or otherwise directly involve themselves in patient care?
If you prefer problem solving, I'm having a hard time seeing why you're considering psychiatry... Ahhhhh ok I see you're an incoming M1. Ok nvm. Be warned, psych IMO has very little to do with problem solving, at least not the clinical MDM type. More of "which pharmacologically equivalent drug do I switch this patient to today?" lol ok no more hate on psych now. Edit: these comments about psych are largely facetious, like many others, I don't purport to know what it is exactly that psych does.

ED radiology is still an emerging field that exists pretty much only in large academic EDs where they have the staffing and equipment to have ED-specific imaging studies done. You'll see what I mean when you go to your training hospital and either see this setup or you don't. Market is thus far limited to those academic institutions (I imagine it will continue to expand given the proliferation of EDs nationwide), which mean hours are something like 6-, 10- or 12-hr shifts, 2-5 shifts a week depending on administrative responsibilities. We don't do any procedures. ED radiology just means I would read scans that only come from ED patients. The most I'm directly involved with patient care is walking over to the ED side and asking a resident what is going on clinically that I'm being asked to do something special for so and so patient. Then back to the reading room I go
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Thanks for doing this! I'm thinking about IM+ fellowship= 6 years. I'm guessing Rads+ fellowship also adds up to 6 years. You mentioned lifestyle difference between rads and EM. How would you compare rads lifestyle to a specialty like GI or Cards?
Much better. The fact that I don't have to go through 6 years of 7a-1p inpatient rounding and clinic followup bull**** during my prime years of clinical training is enough for me. I did a medicine prelim b/c there's no frigging way I was going to do a surgical prelim and it sucked the life out of me. No way José ever again. I peace out at 6p and don't recognize any of my patients when I come back in at 9a. You show up to GI clinic to see your Crohn's patient you've known for 5+ years. Your question is a little odd. People do not choose b/w IM and radiology based on lifestyle...they choose based on philosophy. They're completely different lifestyles because of the type of work it is, so much so that the latter dictates your choice, not the former. You go into IM for the patient relationships, the House-style long ass differentials and correlated extended thinking processes. I go into radiology because I love reading scans more than anything else. An IM sub-specialist would cry at how little patient contact I have; I shudder at the thought of maintaining any relationship with a patient longer than 20 minutes at the bedside.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Currently struggling to decide on committing to our 4 year MD/MPH program. I feel like it could be useful for implementing hospital policies to prevent over imaging and possibly developing appropriate screenings with imaging for preventative health in underserved areas, but the reality of all of this may be much different in practice. Would love to hear your insight on the relevance of the degree in the real world.
 
Currently struggling to decide on committing to our 4 year MD/MPH program. I feel like it could be useful for implementing hospital policies to prevent over imaging and possibly developing appropriate screenings with imaging for preventative health in underserved areas, but the reality of all of this may be much different in practice. Would love to hear your insight on the relevance of the degree in the real world.
I have a dual degree as well. Won't say what it is b/c it would basically dox me. I don't plan on using it at all until I'm done with fellowship. I'm a little unclear about what you're saying. I don't see how an MPH would help you implement hospital policies, since the curriculum really focuses on the macro level. The best thing you can do to get involved with intra-hospital management is to network at your own hospital as a junior clinician. The second point sounds much more like the type of endeavor that would be informed by the core skills of an MPH, which is largely biostatistics, epidemiology, and population health. Most MD/MPHs I see and know are use it for 1) research purposes, which could include the type of project you mentioned, or 2) to work in some overtly public health-oriented position (think public health officer, coordinating smoking cessation programs, etc.). The ones that just work in straight up government don't necessarily use their public health knowledge, just more of their clinical and policy knowledge.

TLDR: do the MPH if you like and want to work on issues related to population health. That's really the value in an MPH, to help you think and analyze at the macro level a little better. Not helpful for credentialing in other types of work necessarily. Definitely no relation to radiology, hardly anybody would care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Thanks for the AMA, Wolf3D.

Do you have any particular suggestions for away rotations in diagnostic radiology? Is there anything that students can do to impress residents and attendings? Any tips for getting a radiology LOR?

Thanks!

-Bill
 
Thanks for the AMA, Wolf3D.

Do you have any particular suggestions for away rotations in diagnostic radiology? Is there anything that students can do to impress residents and attendings? Any tips for getting a radiology LOR?

Thanks!

-Bill
Aways are weird and difficult to manage, esp in radiology, hands-down. The shift nature of the work and non-continuity makes it hard to work around. Probably the most important thing you can do is to establish clear communication preferences from the get go. One of the things that irks me sometimes about students is the untimeliness of their questions; reading images is a difficult cognitive task and getting interrupted leads to inefficiency and more errors. Most attendings/residents will be grateful if you ask them how you can best fit into their workflow from day 1 in the reading room. How are films assigned in the reading room? Should you volunteer to grab new films as they show up? (Always offer to grab them and if they have a different workflow, they'll let you know.) How should you let them know when you're done with a read to go over with them? Who do you report to? Accept that you won't be shifting the needle as you do in other clerkships, meaning hardly anyone relies on med students to finish tasks b/c you're not at the level to do so yet. You're still reading to learn. Don't take it personally, that's just how the field works.

Substantively, there are simple things like knowing your normal film anatomy cold (e.g., don't be the guy who asks me where's the mediastinum on a CXR; you laugh but it's more common than you'd think), volunteering for random scut to help efficiency, introducing yourself to everyone, learning the computer program settings (if you don't need the resident to help you set your windows, that will not go unnoticed). Focus on getting chest/abdominal x-rays first. If you can nail every x-ray you attempt to read, you're already doing much better than most students. Don't be that guy picking up all the PE CT-As and struggle for 30+ min on one. Nail the x-rays and immediately you'll give the impression that you know what you're doing. Of course, if the attending has another idea for you, then go do that. But I'd just start easy especially when you're on a general service to get the ball rolling.

LORs are difficult. Get your schedule beforehand, check the Amion and see which residents/attendings you have multiple shifts with. You need to know this to know who you should err on the side of bothering more often for "learning experiences" so that you get your facetime in to leave an impression. It's hard, I struggled with it but it didn't matter too much since my main letters were from my home institution. There's another nice video here that goes over some other tips for a radiology rotation, hope it's helpful:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Aways are weird and difficult to manage, esp in radiology, hands-down. The shift nature of the work and non-continuity makes it hard to work around. Probably the most important thing you can do is to establish clear communication preferences from the get go. One of the things that irks me sometimes about students is the untimeliness of their questions; reading images is a difficult cognitive task and getting interrupted leads to inefficiency and more errors. Most attendings/residents will be grateful if you ask them how you can best fit into their workflow from day 1 in the reading room. How are films assigned in the reading room? Should you volunteer to grab new films as they show up? (Always offer to grab them and if they have a different workflow, they'll let you know.) How should you let them know when you're done with a read to go over with them? Who do you report to? Accept that you won't be shifting the needle as you do in other clerkships, meaning hardly anyone relies on med students to finish tasks b/c you're not at the level to do so yet. You're still reading to learn. Don't take it personally, that's just how the field works.

Substantively, there are simple things like knowing your normal film anatomy cold (e.g., don't be the guy who asks me where's the mediastinum on a CXR; you laugh but it's more common than you'd think), volunteering for random scut to help efficiency, introducing yourself to everyone, learning the computer program settings (if you don't need the resident to help you set your windows, that will not go unnoticed). Focus on getting chest/abdominal x-rays first. If you can nail every x-ray you attempt to read, you're already doing much better than most students. Don't be that guy picking up all the PE CT-As and struggle for 30+ min on one. Nail the x-rays and immediately you'll give the impression that you know what you're doing. Of course, if the attending has another idea for you, then go do that. But I'd just start easy especially when you're on a general service to get the ball rolling.

LORs are difficult. Get your schedule beforehand, check the Amion and see which residents/attendings you have multiple shifts with. You need to know this to know who you should err on the side of bothering more often for "learning experiences" so that you get your facetime in to leave an impression. It's hard, I struggled with it but it didn't matter too much since my main letters were from my home institution. There's another nice video here that goes over some other tips for a radiology rotation, hope it's helpful:


Thank you VERY much, Wolf. I really appreciate the advice. Will definitely work on CXRs/AXRs before I head off on aways.

It sounds like being helpful (eg -- scut work) and having some idea of how to read basic films is about the best you can do as a med student. DR is certainly different than a lot of other fields with respect to our role as a student, but hoping I can learn something without being annoying and maybe give the residents a hand here and there.

Thanks again.

-Bill
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If you prefer problem solving, I'm having a hard time seeing why you're considering psychiatry... Ahhhhh ok I see you're an incoming M1. Ok nvm. Be warned, psych IMO has very little to do with problem solving, at least not the clinical MDM type. More of "which pharmacologically equivalent drug do I switch this patient to today?" lol ok no more hate on psych now.

Oh no, rads bro! Psych begins as a rule out specialty, in addition to managing medical conditions that arise on the psych ward. I review or order labs, EKGs, CXRs, CT head regularly. Once medical pathology is stabilized or ruled out and I am sure IM or EM docs haven't missed anything, we can play the psychotropic pharmacology game that you saw on your psych rotation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@Wolf3D Thanks so much for doing this. You mentioned not wanting to look at another mammogram ever again. Just from what I've read, I've heard that breast imaging has the potential for the best lifestyle. Simultaneously, I've read that so many people hate it and would never want to do it because it's so "boring". Could you elaborate if the lifestyle aspects of it are true and why that's still not lucrative enough to prevent being driven away from it (if true)? What makes it so boring compared to other fellowship choices?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh no, rads bro! Psych begins as a rule out specialty, in addition to managing medical conditions that arise on the psych ward. I review or order labs, EKGs, CXRs, CT head regularly. Once medical pathology is stabilized or ruled out and I am sure IM or EM docs haven't missed anything, we can play the psychotropic pharmacology game that you saw on your psych rotation.
Yeah man I know, I didn't make it clear that I was being quite facetious and having some fun with that comment. Even during the psychotropic games there's no shortage of critical thinking, of course. Lemme go back and edit the points of clarity in lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Thank you VERY much, Wolf. I really appreciate the advice. Will definitely work on CXRs/AXRs before I head off on aways.

It sounds like being helpful (eg -- scut work) and having some idea of how to read basic films is about the best you can do as a med student. DR is certainly different than a lot of other fields with respect to our role as a student, but hoping I can learn something without being annoying and maybe give the residents a hand here and there.

Thanks again.

-Bill
You're very welcome. It certainly is a very different experience but all attending and resident radiologists at any teaching institution should be cognizant of that fact and be willing to accept you in your role with open arms. Should anyone give you the feeling that they don't, in my book, it's an important enough warning sign to note. Personalities differ, of course, but DR services are known to be some of the chiller ones so don't sweat it too much anyway. You know the drill from your mothership (hopefully), just rinse and repeat with a little bit more gravity on the aways
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
@Wolf3D Thanks so much for doing this. You mentioned not wanting to look at another mammogram ever again. Just from what I've read, I've heard that breast imaging has the potential for the best lifestyle. Simultaneously, I've read that so many people hate it and would never want to do it because it's so "boring". Could you elaborate if the lifestyle aspects of it are true and why that's still not lucrative enough to prevent being driven away from it (if true)? What makes it so boring compared to other fellowship choices?
The lifestyle can be great for two reasons. One, no overnight call, not many weekends; what's a breast imagery emergency? Two, variety: imaging, reading, procedures (read: biopsies), screening, clinic, breast people do it all. They actually carry their own patients and generally have longer term relationships. They only look at boobs, all. day. long.

Other than the scheduling piece, none of this jives well with most young radiologists, especially those like me. (YES I'm generalizing, crucify me if you will.) I'm here to read films and peace out when my shift is over, I don't want my own patients. I pick up and move down the coast, plop into another reading room, fire up PACS, boom I am working. I want diverse pathology, I want to read out "clinical correlations" all day long for head, chest, abdomen, MSK, you name it. Procedures are ok; I wouldn't mind doing them. But reading the same boob films all day, looking for microcalcifications and comparing scattered vs. heterogeneously dense tissue? No thanks, I'd rather read a million "gallbladder appears angry" instead. Don't even get me started on clinic. It serves a great purpose, but don't make me do it. Breast imaging has (rightfully) evolved from its origins as a radiology-only specialty and doing breast cancer right saves lives you can physically touch, but it's a 100% nope-a-roni for me. Every block I spend on breast gets worse and worse (for me personally, not everyone), which is really saying something b/c neurorads as an R2/R3 pales in comparison and that **** is hard. as. dried. dog****. ****.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The lifestyle can be great for two reasons. One, no overnight call, not many weekends; what's a breast imagery emergency? Two, variety: imaging, reading, procedures (read: biopsies), screening, clinic, breast people do it all. They actually carry their own patients and generally have longer term relationships. They only look at boobs, all. day. long.

Other than the scheduling piece, none of this jives well with most young radiologists, especially those like me. (YES I'm generalizing, crucify me if you will.) I'm here to read films and peace out when my shift is over, I don't want my own patients. I pick up and move down the coast, plop into another reading room, fire up PACS, boom I am working. I want diverse pathology, I want to read out "clinical correlations" all day long for head, chest, abdomen, MSK, you name it. Procedures are ok; I wouldn't mind doing them. But reading the same boob films all day, looking for microcalcifications and comparing scattered vs. heterogeneously dense tissue? No thanks, I'd rather read a million "gallbladder appears angry" instead. Don't even get me started on clinic. It serves a great purpose, but don't make me do it. Breast imaging has (rightfully) evolved from its origins as a radiology-only specialty and doing breast cancer right saves lives you can physically touch, but it's a 100% nope-a-roni for me. Every block I spend on breast gets worse and worse (for me personally, not everyone), which is really saying something b/c neurorads as an R2/R3 pales in comparison and that **** is hard. as. dried. dog****. ****.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm starting at a DO school this year and I'm pretty set on pursuing radiology, and that of the fellowships I had considered afterward. Thankfully I don't have to decide any time soon. I appreciate your time here!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@Wolf3D Thanks so much for doing this. You mentioned not wanting to look at another mammogram ever again. Just from what I've read, I've heard that breast imaging has the potential for the best lifestyle. Simultaneously, I've read that so many people hate it and would never want to do it because it's so "boring". Could you elaborate if the lifestyle aspects of it are true and why that's still not lucrative enough to prevent being driven away from it (if true)? What makes it so boring compared to other fellowship choices?

People also dislike breast imaging because 1) reading screening mammograms well isn't easy and 2) it's one of, if not the, most litigious area of radiology. Combined with public misconception about what mammography, in particular, and breast imaging, in general, can and cannot do, and it's easy to find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

Breast imaging is also highly algorithmic and standardized. When presented with a mammogram, it's either A and you do X, or it's B and you do Y. There are relatively well-defined rules that are supposed to prevent you from "going off-roading", as I call it, although that doesn't stop people all too often. Combined with the regimented vocabulary that is the BI-RADS lexicon, and it's easy to see why people get tired of it, quickly.

That said, its reliance on a single organ notwithstanding, breast imaging offers a range of modalities, procedures, and greater patient contact than other radiology subspecialties. Also, because of federal law (MQSA), radiologists have a more direct role to play in how the patient is worked up and treated.

While there are breast-only radiology jobs out there, choosing that route will limit you in a couple of important ways. For one, the overwhelming majority of these jobs will be at either academic instiutions or at large private practices. Secondly, the lifestyle aspect comes at a price, to wit, partnership. Taking call is virtually the sine qua non of partnership, so any position that lets you work no nights/weekends/holidays is almost certainly going to be an employed position with all of the issues/downsides/benefits that come with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Taking call is virtually the sine qua non of partnership, so any position that lets you work no nights/weekends/holidays is almost certainly going to be an employed position with all of the issues/downsides/benefits that come with it.
Interesting. As someone who hasn't looked into the private practice model much given my career trajectory, I didn't know about this but it makes complete sense. I learned something from my own AMA. Nice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm going into my 3rd year (out of 4) in radiology, planning on emergency rads fellowship. College, med school, residency all in the Northeast. Willing to answer questions and be helpful in whatever way possible, especially for those who might have an interest in radiology or EM, which were my top two choices in school. Try not to get too personal, don't plan on getting doxed here any time soon
About to start doing aways in DR, couple questions:

1. Any resources you'd suggest (books, online practice, etc...) for an MS3 about to do aways in radiology? I'd like to get down the basics.

2. How much of an impact does doing prelim in gen surg help for matching ESIR or IR fellowship? I'm applying DR only, but I'd like to keep that door open in the future if I end up loving IR.
 
Last edited:
As a rads resident, what do you wish residents in other specialties knew? You can be specific or general. Like are there any frustrating things you deal with regularly from other services?

I wish surgeons could write better notes/indications. Also, floors/ED's that utilize a lot of PA/NP's are frustrating since they over order studies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
How much of an impact does doing prelim in gen surg help for matching IR/ESIR? I'm applying DR only, but I'd like to keep that door open in the future if I end up loving IR.

I would advise you to do a medical school rotation in IR if your school offers one, THEN decide whether a surgery prelim year might be worth it. At this point, given all the uncertainty of the new IR/DR training paradigm, my guess is that a prelim year in general surgery will likely cause programs to view you a bit more favorably compared to applicants who've done medicine or transitional years. Given the new focus towards a more clinical IR, several programs have shifted towards requiring their IR/DR integrated residents to go through a surgery prelim year.

That said, surgery prelim years are miserable, so I'd think long and hard about just how much interest you have in IR and the associated lifestyle burdens such as overnight call, which may be especially painful after a radiology residency free of such things. Even with the old pathway, I'm sure less than half of those residents who started rads residency professing an interest in IR actually ended up applying for it, with the predominant reason being the poorer lifestyle compared to DR.

*Edit: Just remembered that you apply to intern year at the same time as residency. Given that, maybe it may not have much impact if you're applying to both at the same time. However, some IR programs may ask if you're considering doing a surgery prelim.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
People also dislike breast imaging because 1) reading screening mammograms well isn't easy and 2) it's one of, if not the, most litigious area of radiology. Combined with public misconception about what mammography, in particular, and breast imaging, in general, can and cannot do, and it's easy to find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

Breast imaging is also highly algorithmic and standardized. When presented with a mammogram, it's either A and you do X, or it's B and you do Y. There are relatively well-defined rules that are supposed to prevent you from "going off-roading", as I call it, although that doesn't stop people all too often. Combined with the regimented vocabulary that is the BI-RADS lexicon, and it's easy to see why people get tired of it, quickly.

That said, its reliance on a single organ notwithstanding, breast imaging offers a range of modalities, procedures, and greater patient contact than other radiology subspecialties. Also, because of federal law (MQSA), radiologists have a more direct role to play in how the patient is worked up and treated.

While there are breast-only radiology jobs out there, choosing that route will limit you in a couple of important ways. For one, the overwhelming majority of these jobs will be at either academic instiutions or at large private practices. Secondly, the lifestyle aspect comes at a price, to wit, partnership. Taking call is virtually the sine qua non of partnership, so any position that lets you work no nights/weekends/holidays is almost certainly going to be an employed position with all of the issues/downsides/benefits that come with it.

Thank you for the insight. Those are things I definitely couldn't have known otherwise! I've seen breast-only jobs on radworking.com and didn't even notice that many of the jobs are employed positions or offer partnership but in an undesirable location. That's something fairly significant to be aware of.
 
Thanks in advance for doing this!

This is a pretty personal thing but maybe you have some input. Rising MS3; at this point, I see myself either taking the path of DR (possible into IR) or general surgery (into a fellowship). Still haven't taken rotations yet obviously. In addition to the typical 'work with my hands, instant gratification' stuff, I think the ego-driven part of me as well as the part of me that enjoys interacting with people, and possibly the desire to do global work, push me towards general surgery. The rest of me wants to have less hours/week of work, more enjoyment outside of my job, and to have a better work-life balance pulls me into DR (and I also, so far, really enjoy going through images and the idea of being able to understand every cm3 of an image is enticing). Did you go through anything similar; any advice as I enter MS3? General surgery rotation is in January, and DR rotation is in May.
 
Thanks in advance for doing this!

This is a pretty personal thing but maybe you have some input. Rising MS3; at this point, I see myself either taking the path of DR (possible into IR) or general surgery (into a fellowship). Still haven't taken rotations yet obviously. In addition to the typical 'work with my hands, instant gratification' stuff, I think the ego-driven part of me as well as the part of me that enjoys interacting with people, and possibly the desire to do global work, push me towards general surgery. The rest of me wants to have less hours/week of work, more enjoyment outside of my job, and to have a better work-life balance pulls me into DR (and I also, so far, really enjoy going through images and the idea of being able to understand every cm3 of an image is enticing). Did you go through anything similar; any advice as I enter MS3? General surgery rotation is in January, and DR rotation is in May.
I was in a similar boat as you starting MS3 - was heavily leaning surgery. I feel pretty confident that after third year you'll have a very good idea where you stand on this issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
As a rads resident, what do you wish residents in other specialties knew? You can be specific or general. Like are there any frustrating things you deal with regularly from other services?
Not too much. Give me better indications for why they need to scan. Understand that they are the clinical correlation, not me. I only have the scan in front of me, not the patient. I understand that radiologists might recommend clinical correlations too frequently to the point of irresponsibility, but it's really not in my job description or capabilities to give you a differential in the read. One of the funnier Gomer Blog articles: http://gomerblog.com/2016/05/bored-radiologist-clinically-correlates-everything/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
About to start doing aways in DR, couple questions:

1. Any resources you'd suggest (books, online practice, etc...) for an MS3 about to do aways in radiology? I'd like to get down the basics.

2. How much of an impact does doing prelim in gen surg help for matching ESIR or IR fellowship? I'm applying DR only, but I'd like to keep that door open in the future if I end up loving IR.
See my above response on this. I'm a bit out of the loop for med student level stuff...honestly I wasn't the best med student lol. My co-residents speak highly of Herring's Learning Radiology and I've seen some students here carry it. Felson's CXR book is also good I've heard. Maybe radiopaedia.org? I don't really think you need to do much. Most of the time you'll find yourself shadowing and bumbling through random things yourself and then someone will tell you to peace out at 2:30pm

IR fellowships would look favorably upon a surg prelim when it comes time to apply. In fact, some integrated programs require a surg prelim year from their residents. But that year blows so much ass, I don't think I would preemptively do it just "in case" I want to do IR. Doors won't be closed if you apply IR with TY or med prelim. It would be a hard pass for me personally
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Thanks in advance for doing this!

This is a pretty personal thing but maybe you have some input. Rising MS3; at this point, I see myself either taking the path of DR (possible into IR) or general surgery (into a fellowship). Still haven't taken rotations yet obviously. In addition to the typical 'work with my hands, instant gratification' stuff, I think the ego-driven part of me as well as the part of me that enjoys interacting with people, and possibly the desire to do global work, push me towards general surgery. The rest of me wants to have less hours/week of work, more enjoyment outside of my job, and to have a better work-life balance pulls me into DR (and I also, so far, really enjoy going through images and the idea of being able to understand every cm3 of an image is enticing). Did you go through anything similar; any advice as I enter MS3? General surgery rotation is in January, and DR rotation is in May.
Surgery IMO is nowhere near instant gratification level stuff, unless you're talking about real vanilla stuff like outpatient lipomas or umbilical hernia repairs. Most other surgical subspecialty patients are very sick and require long hospital stays pre-/post-surgery (or both) and you'll have to manage them throughout that time. Ego? You can surely get away with a big ego in a surgical field but I'm not sure the work itself does much to stroke it on a daily basis. The idea of the powerful surgeon waving his golden scalpel and strutting around isn't really how it goes at most hospitals.

Most pre clerkship students don't know enough about the real surgery life to really make a decision one way or another. Which is okay! Once you go through the rotation, you'll have a much better sense of what you think. Hard to advise you before that tbh. Just show up curious and ready to learn, the questions will answer themselves as you see what the clinical work/day/schedule is like and whether you like standing in the OR for hours more or sitting in a comfortable chair sipping Gatorade more ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do you ever get lonely in the reading room? Are radiology residents fun to go out with/ do you feel like you have good comradery with your co residents?
 
Top